Official 4BR Tier List v2.0 - Competitive Impressions

[ReRaze]

分からん殺し pic.twitter.com/VRFbgjpADO

— れんこん. (@r_en_co_n_) September 11, 2016

I wonder how versatile this is, because this honestly looks ridiculous.

Although I'm a footstool fanatic myself I just wanna point out some things that will make it seem less ridiculous
-The marth in the Video did not DI at all. DI normally makes footstool combos alot harder.
-The cape actually limits the combo since it prevents mario from reacting to DI as if people DI behind his cape he cannot followup as cape halts momentum, If he waits to react to DI he can't followup with a nair in time after the cape so he has to read DI.
But even on some characters like yoshi the cape halts too much momentum for him to followup even with a read.
-Mario can actually do this without the cape and in fact it makes the combo work a little better on some characters whom mario can't followup after using the cape due to lack of momentum and allows him to react to DI.
-A limitation of this combo is, it doesn't work as well on faster fallers, marth is exceptionally easy to footstool combo from my experience due to his floatiness, it doesn't work on say for e.g cloud.
-It doesn't work as well if you are lower to the ground when you initiate the footstool, and so it works better at higherish percents which limits the percent ranges since it clashes with when nair stops locking.
-Depending on the opponents air speed or fall speed or size and your own reaction time you may have to read DI rather than react.
-Something dope is that you can lock with a fireball instead which can work in some scenarios where nair can't, albeit unreliably for obvious reasons.

With all that being said its still definitely viable imo just not as ridiculous as say villager's recent pp down smash lock.

Cultural differences. There's been posts here and there about it. Until just recently with the whole "I can get fame/make money off of this information," Japan was more open with tech and secrets while US players were known to hide them to use in bracket.

This is one of the reasons I like the Japanese scene, they're so open and always willing to help one another get better, It's probably also why their scene is so much stronger as a cohort than any other region. Although to be fair, Japan doesn't have money on the line like in US, so I guess there is more incentive to try and win and be better than the rest in US.

Well I'm glad people don't hide tech anymore (at least I assume so, judging by all the vids around nowadays), imo hiding tech is selfish and really isn't gonna help as much in the long run whereas if you shared with other people there is always the possibility that they can improve on it or find something better with the idea in mind which can really push the meta of a character.

 

[Nobie]

We should've known Mario of all people had a dope footstool combo.

Also on a meta related note what's the deal with all these people revealing character things like that? I mean if I discovered something like that I'm keeping it a secret until I'm in a tournament set. As far as I understand a few of the brawl boards were like that. And most sports are too, keeping something in the back pocket until you need it.

What's that saying? Iron forges iron?

In this day and age where information spreads so rapidly, you pretty much get one chance to surprise people, and then it quickly gets assimilated into the general player knowledge base. By making your potential opponents aware of it, you learn to practice against someone who knows how to counter it, so you in turn learn how to counter-counter it.

You still see people pulling off the occasional surprise. The main example i can think of is Justin Wong winning EVO with Storm as his point character. He developed an anti-Chris G strategy and literally saved it throughout the entire year (even losing multiple times to Chris G in previous tournaments), just to pull it out on the grandest stage.

Multi-tournament conditioning?

 

[|RK|]

We should've known Mario of all people had a dope footstool combo.

Also on a meta related note what's the deal with all these people revealing character things like that? I mean if I discovered something like that I'm keeping it a secret until I'm in a tournament set. As far as I understand a few of the brawl boards were like that. And most sports are too, keeping something in the back pocket until you need it.

A bunch of tricks doesn't make a good player. I think ANTi said something similar, considering how many clips he puts on his Twitter.

 

[Pazzo.]

A bunch of tricks doesn't make a good player. I think ANTi said something similar, considering how many clips he puts on his Twitter.

And then Kamemushi happens.

While not entirely fit for every situation, foolstools have proven effective for some.

 

[|RK|]

And then Kamemushi happens.

While not entirely fit for every situation, foolstools have proven effective for some.

Footstool combos are cool. I meant the general practice of hiding tech for easy wins. Kamemushi's footstool combo is well known.

 

[Funen1]

What's that saying? Iron forges iron?

In this day and age where information spreads so rapidly, you pretty much get one chance to surprise people, and then it quickly gets assimilated into the general player knowledge base. By making your potential opponents aware of it, you learn to practice against someone who knows how to counter it, so you in turn learn how to counter-counter it.

I remember Adam "Keits" Heart (one of the lead designers for Killer Instinct) saying something similar a while ago. His wording was something like "by hiding tech, you're assuming no one else will find it or find a counter to it". I can see why people might want to hide something since winning is obviously important to a lot of pros, but I'm also inclined to agree that this is a short-sighted approach (like you said, only one chance for the surprise). Perhaps it could be called a case of prioritizing winning "too much"? I know there's the general advice of "not focusing on winning" while playing, but maybe it could be applied here too.

 

[verbatim]

And then Kamemushi happens.

While not entirely fit for every situation, foolstools have proven effective for some.

Not exactly. There are lots of examples of extremely complicated footstools. Kamemushi's the only real example of a player being able to incorporate extremely technical footstool setups while also being a top level player.

Also mini-rant, if you're not consistently winning money locally, or at the very least winning more sets than you lose on average, chances are that learning obscure tech isn't as important as everyone makes it out to be, and you're better off focusing on things like matchups and bracket mentality if you want to get better.

 

[TriTails]

That Mario footstool stuffs, while not necessarily easy, look like they have a lot of chances of being used.

They start off from D-throw then U-air, literally Mario's BnB on the entire cast. The jab lock doesn't look all that hard either. Cape the other way, fast-fall, bam. If they're not in the charged F-smash kill range, drop in an untechable F-air spike and you can repeat that very thing. But I'll want to lab this out first before spewing assumptions.

Imagine Ally, the fundamental monarch, implementing this into his gameplay. People would ****in' cry.

Marios just seem to dig out more and more kill setups as the time goes on. First we has D-tilt/D-throw + U-air + D-air that kills below 90% IIRC, then this? I suppose this character had some more room to grow after all.

(Inb4 'keep him out and he can't do anything lol')

 

[ARISTOS]

Not exactly. There are lots of examples of extremely complicated footstools. Kamemushi's the only real example of a player being able to incorporate extremely technical footstool setups while also being a top level player.

Also mini-rant, if you're not consistently winning money locally, or at the very least winning more sets than you lose on average, chances are that learning obscure tech isn't as important as everyone makes it out to be, and you're better off focusing on things like matchups and bracket mentality if you want to get better.

Learning fundamentals and improving on MUs is definitely the better and more sustainable way to progress but it's a much harder way of going about things and you don't get feedback as quickly.

Improving through fundamentals is much more nebulous "Is what I'm learning useful?", slower to adopt "I see this person keeps jumping off ledge, how can i punish?" and might even involve unlearning bad habits "I need to stop rolling on-stage". You also don't get feedback until the next tournament you play, and there's a lot of other factors to be controlled in that setting.

That's probably a reason people may fall into ruts in Smash 4 that they might not as easily fall into in Melee. In Melee, your tech skill is always something that can be referred back to should you need to improve on your game. You either get it or you don't. Smash 4 doesn't have such a fallback so one would need to go deeper; going from initial points of improvement "Stop rolling away from ledge" to deeper levels "What options do I have to prevent myself from getting stuck in this disadvantageous situation?"

Improvement is a tricky thing.

 

[Pazzo.]

Footstool combos are cool. I meant the general practice of hiding tech for easy wins. Kamemushi's footstool combo is well known.

Ah, my bad.

Not exactly. There are lots of examples of extremely complicated footstools. Kamemushi's the only real example of a player being able to incorporate extremely technical footstool setups while also being a top level player.

Also mini-rant, if you're not consistently winning money locally, or at the very least winning more sets than you lose on average, chances are that learning obscure tech isn't as important as everyone makes it out to be, and you're better off focusing on things like matchups and bracket mentality if you want to get better.

I'd say Abadango too, right?

 

[verbatim]

Yeah Abadango's a really good example too, but he has some caveats.

He has a few Pacman specific things that he's invented with footstools (bell --> fair & grab bell -- footstool --> toss down jab reset --> fastfall fsmash) that have since been picked up by other players.

He's the only high level player IK of that has gotten the Mewtwo footstool setup in bracket on other high level players, but it is worth noting that someone else originally came up with the idea.

Just about everything with MK that he did Leo or Ito did first.



For my personal opinion I think that these things really don't count against him (especially the Pacman one, I guarantee 2 years out from now other people will be doing the Kamemushi combo) and definitely consider him to be the most technical top level player.

Whereas some top level character specialists like Void or Kamemushi may have more individual inventions, Abadango's repeatedly been able to master a wide variety of tech heavy combos with a lot of different characters, even if he didn't necessarily invent all of them.

 

[Megamang]

If you hoard a tech, you also run the risk of someone else posting it to social media. Then youre just some guy claiming he discovered obscure tech but decided to keep it.

And yea, letting your community make your tech better is also a benefit of sharing. If you post a footstool combo, youll get people offering optimizations and setups in your comments. Ofc, some are bad but youll find great little tricks hidden in there.


Also, so much tech is character specific, to hoard a Mario trick and never face a mario... you'll wanna share eventually!

 

[DunnoBro]

分からん殺し pic.twitter.com/VRFbgjpADO

— れんこん. (@r_en_co_n_) September 11, 2016

I wonder how versatile this is, because this honestly looks ridiculous.

Yea it works. I've known about this ever since I saw the greninja stuff and thought to use cape like shuriken.

It's pretty hard getting the nair though, since you gotta read DI. it was also easiest on pit/marth. Still don't really believe it's viable.

 

[freeziebeatz]

r/smashbros voted Sheik MU chart.

 

[ElectricBlade]

r/smashbros voted Sheik MU chart.

I would say Sheik vs Cloud is more 60:40 in Sheiks favor.

 

[L9999]

r/smashbros voted Sheik MU chart.

Finally a decent MU chart. Only nitpick is DK and MK.

 

[FeelMeUp]

Yeah the MU chart actually isn't awful.
She just has fewer evens, more 70/30s, and more 6:4s.

 

[FallofBrawl]

Turns out there are ways to implement bypass the teching animation into an immediate anything when flying towards the ledge:

To celebrate the launch of my Patreon, I wanna share something interesting with u guys. More to come for my Patrons! pic.twitter.com/JS04RWTB6E

— My Smash Corner (@MySmashCorner) September 7, 2016

It seems the same tech is utilized when against grounded spike hitboxes:

Apparently it has to do with SDI'ing up right before you tech, MSC is coming out with his tutorial on it soon.

 

[DunnoBro]

I think the m2 MU is gonna become even harder for sheik as time goes on.

TBH Any character boasting an actual (not rumored) positive MU vs sheik in the history of the game needs to be looked at very carefully.

 

[money1246]

@Emblem Lord I have been dual maining Ryu and Bayonetta for awhile. Offline my Ryu seems to better while my Bayo does much better online. On the other hand, I feel like my opponents let me get away with too much as Ryu. So I have 3 questions.

1. Why do you believe Ryu would be better than Bayo offline?
2. What does Ryu have over Bayo that would make someone play Ryu long-term?
3. Why is a nerfed Bayo doing better than a character in Ryu that has never been touched?

 

[FeelMeUp]

I think the m2 MU is gonna become even harder for sheik as time goes on.

TBH Any character boasting an actual (not rumored) positive MU vs sheik in the history of the game needs to be looked at very carefully.

You think so? If anything, I think it can only get even easier. The fact that Sheik has REAL kill potential off so many moves on M2 around 100-130(uthrow uair and jab jab fsmash are two good examples), the best ledgetrapping vs a character that's really easy to ledgetrap, and one of the best crossup rolls in the game vs a character with a bad vulnerability to them tells me the matchup can only get better for her.
The issue, imo, is that while most characters have a specific style Sheik should play vs them Mewtwo doesn't have one. You gotta pick a style based on the M2 specifically.

 

[YerTheBestAROUND]

Kamemushi's the only real example of a player being able to incorporate extremely technical footstool setups while also being a top level player.

I mean, the main footstool combo that Kamemushi uses isn't really all that hard. MySmashCorner even has a video on it, as well as a similar one by BeefySmashDoods I believe. I'm sure plenty of people can do it just fine, where they differ from Kamemushi is you can typically tell when they're fishing for it.

I think the m2 MU is gonna become even harder for sheik as time goes on.

TBH Any character boasting an actual (not rumored) positive MU vs sheik in the history of the game needs to be looked at very carefully.

Really? Cause I think it's the opposite. I think the MU is starting to get better for Sheik. Especially with the uthrow 50/50 making it a lot easier to kill Mewtwo before he kills you, which was one of the bigger problems in the MU beforehand. I do think the MU needs to be explored further though.

Edit: 'd by FeelMeUp
Double Edit: While Rich Brown might not be at Abadongo's level when it comes to Mewtwo, he is a notable player of the character. This set with Mr. R is a perfect example of what FeelMeUp and myself are referring to:

 

[Ethan7]

uthrow uair

I'm still not going to believe this until it's proven. Maybe we can test it online some time?

 

[YerTheBestAROUND]

I'm still not going to believe this until it's proven. Maybe we can test it online some time?

It is proven. Check out the video in my last post.
Not only that, but testing it online probably wouldn't help you, seeing as there's obviously going to be input lag during an online match. Offline would be much better.

 

[FeelMeUp]

Yeah, you can't buffer two actions at once so a double jump airdodge can't be buffered, as I said.
I believe the characters it works on are M2 Bayo Lucas and maybe Ness? Could be missing someone though.
The issue with it is that it doesn't have a ridiculous 150% range where it works like Dthrow Uair did on most of the cast. It's super strict in comparison at like 30-40% iirc.
and also a reminder that although Abadango reset the bracket, Mr. R did win the tourney over him at BAM8 recently.

 

[Nobie]

Mr. R beat Abadango at BAM8, but Abadango beat Mr. R at CEO 2016.

Mewtwo isn't without weaknesses that Sheik can exploit, but Mewtwo has a mix of properties that also give Sheik grief. Basically, you know how people talk about Lucario has a theoretically even or better matchup with Sheik due to Rage + Aura? Mewtwo sports comparable kill power, but on a character who can contend with Sheik in the neutral.

"Roll behind Mewtwo" does take advantage of the fact that Mewtwo doesn't have a good "hit all around" attack like a typical down smash, but that's easier said than done when Mewtwo simply has to go "turn around, grab" and take your stock at high percents.

 

[Y2Kay]

I've never been really sold on the idea that Mewtwo beats Sheik. Sheik's ledge coverage makes it hard to regain stage control, She has mobility that is all around better than his, and it can be sometimes very hard to escape Sheik's combos, even with his air dodge.

He probably has the best Sheik match up out of the cast though, which is very significant and an important boon to his viability.

 

[FeelMeUp]

crossup roll jab/ftilt is the normal interaction, and M2's tournaround grab is a 7-8 frame commitment(I haven't checked in a while) meaning he has to have hard read the Sheik to get real mileage out of it. Then comes the argument of "if you're reading Sheik you deserve what you got off it."
Crossup rolls are already really bad at high % because of the threat of Usmash. I'm more talking around 0-70(rage not accounted for).
I still thought the matchup was negative for a while but that 45:55 is gradually growing closer to 50:50 in my eyes. Reminds me a lot of how I felt about the Ryu Sheik MU after Sheik got nerfed. M2's offledge options are honestly just way too bad for me to ignore. Usually when ledgetrapping you react to all the options/cover them all with Nair but with M2 all of his take so long that you can wait for him to do something and force him to take damage over and over again. It's kinda depressing.
It doesn't help that his disadvantage is EXTREMELY good for vertical stuff but vs Sheik he just gets hit anyway no matter what. If his fair can't break the string then he's not getting out at all, and all of her combos force you to lose all stage control after they're done.

 

[YerTheBestAROUND]

Yeah, you can't buffer two actions at once so a double jump airdodge can't be buffered, as I said.
I believe the characters it works on are M2 Bayo Lucas and maybe Ness? Could be missing someone though.
The issue with it is that it doesn't have a ridiculous 150% range where it works like Dthrow Uair did on most of the cast. It's super strict in comparison at like 30-40% iirc.
and also a reminder that although Abadango reset the bracket, Mr. R did win the tourney over him at BAM8 recently.

I'm not doubting you, but I haven't heard of it working reliably on Bayonetta, so you'd have to explain that one to me a bit. I'm fairly certain it does work on Ness though, and assuming it does then the Ness MU got a whole lot worse for Ness.

Speaking of Ness, he's really not amazing. Horrible Sheik match up, really bad Corrin match up, really bad Rosalina match up, doesn't really like Marth or Lucina that much but it isn't as bad as Corrin, horrible disadvantage state offstage, not a very amazing neutral. And while this isn't to say that Lucas is better than Ness, he does do notably better than Ness in the Corrin, Marth, and Lucina match ups due to his better recovery and better neutral at lower and mid percents. I also think he does slightly better vs Sheik, but I feel like others might disagree. @Luco or FeelMeUp might be able to explain the Lucas/Sheik match up better than I.

 

[FeelMeUp]

Lucas does much, much better against Sheik than Ness does.
The MU is still kinda bad but it's nowhere near as bad as Ness' is. In neutral Lucas can actually threaten Sheik's jumps and force her to stay grounded due to the range of both PK Fire and Zair. In turn, the best option vs Lucas is either needlecamping or sitting in shield and reacting to what he does with Fair/Nair OoS but if you mess up you eat huge damage or die at 110-120.

and I'm not 100% on it working on Bayo either, actually. It's just one of the characters VoiD and a few others in the Discord listed off. If it does the timing is much more strict. She's the only character I've never used it on, but that's mostly because killing Bayo isn't difficult in the first place anyway.

I do think Ness does better vs Diddy than Lucas, though, so that's a strong positive.

 

[Dagon97]

Mr. R beat Abadango at BAM8, but Abadango beat Mr. R at CEO 2016.

Mewtwo isn't without weaknesses that Sheik can exploit, but Mewtwo has a mix of properties that also give Sheik grief. Basically, you know how people talk about Lucario has a theoretically even or better matchup with Sheik due to Rage + Aura? Mewtwo sports comparable kill power, but on a character who can contend with Sheik in the neutral.

You mention Mr. R trading sets with Abadango, hasn't void lost 3 or more sets vs abadango while never beating him?

About , it is becoming more and more into 's favor due to sheik's maintaining strong stage control and killing far earlier.
Lucario's up B is an easy edgeguard unless from above the stage.

In the future, sheik will be doing worse vs m2 but better vs lucario

 

[DunnoBro]

You think so? If anything, I think it can only get even easier. The fact that Sheik has REAL kill potential off so many moves on M2 around 100-130(uthrow uair and jab jab fsmash are two good examples), the best ledgetrapping vs a character that's really easy to ledgetrap, and one of the best crossup rolls in the game vs a character with a bad vulnerability to them tells me the matchup can only get better for her.
The issue, imo, is that while most characters have a specific style Sheik should play vs them Mewtwo doesn't have one. You gotta pick a style based on the M2 specifically.

Mewtwo isn't easy to ledge trap at all, probably the hardest in the game.

In fact, I'm counting now and every single time abadango got off the ledge vs void at CEO he either hits void back or got back for free. (In fact, the tragic stretchering happened while void was trying to pressure aba's return from the ledge)

M2 Bar none has the safest return to neutral in the game. With confusion to stuff the ledge shield hold option, his airdodge + fair to defend against ledge jump challenges, plus instant shadowball ledge get-up and teleport for mix-ups. Also don't forget his ability to airdodge endlessly to the other side of the stage.

And sheik's kill potential, no matter how optimized still pales in comparison to m2's. I also see both void and mr. r going for uthrow stuff vs aba and it never works so I'm inclined to believe it's merely a mix-up. Meanwhile, when m2 uthrows sheik...

 

[FeelMeUp]

In fact, I'm counting now and every single time abadango got off the ledge vs void at CEO he either hits void back or got back for free. (In fact, the tragic stretchering happened while void was trying to pressure aba's return from the ledge)

Do one of the sets between Mr. R and Aba instead. VoiD's ledgetrapping is really inefficient vs M2 because instead of covering options by reacting/nairing the getups he chooses to instead stand about 3-4 character distances away and walk around to react from that distance. This means you can no longer properly punish DJ returns to the stage or ledge jumps, which are by far the most important to cover.
Use BAM8 or CEO to check. Pref BAM8 since there's 2 sets of content and it's more recent I believe.

In fact, I'm counting now and every single time abadango got off the ledge vs void at CEO he either hits void back or got back for free. (In fact, the tragic stretchering happened while void was trying to pressure aba's return from the ledge)

VoiD in general is too passive while ledgetrapping and doesn't like to heavily commit to aggressive options to scare the opponent. This is bad vs M2 because not only do you not have the ability to dtilt him for holding too long, but you can't cover as many options as you could previously.
His ledgetrapping in general isn't the best so this isn't a very good example.

M2 Bar none has the safest return to neutral in the game. With confusion to stuff the ledge shield hold option, his airdodge + fair to defend against ledge jump challenges, plus instant shadowball ledge get-up and teleport for mix-ups. Also don't forget his ability to airdodge endlessly to the other side of the stage.

Guess we'll have to disagree completely here.

And sheik's kill potential, no matter how optimized still pales in comparison to m2's. I also see both void and mr. r going for uthrow stuff vs aba and it never works so I'm inclined to believe it's merely a mix-up. Meanwhile, when m2 uthrows sheik...

Yeah, here's the thing.
Sheik's entire character is based off of not getting hit. M2 in comparison doesn't have a character makeup as safe because of his body proportions, no flip move to get out of things, and no super fast combo breaker/get off me move.
In Sheik vs M2 the Sheik will hit M2 twice as much because Mewtwo generally has trouble both getting in on her and getting her off of him. The kill potential isn't a huge boon because hitting the damn character is so difficult in the first place.
But uhhhhhh......Sheik? Fair character?
Are we playing Brawl?

 

[Ghostbone]

分からん殺し pic.twitter.com/VRFbgjpADO

— れんこん. (@r_en_co_n_) September 11, 2016

I wonder how versatile this is, because this honestly looks ridiculous.

The combo on the first stock only works from like 35-40 if they DI away, and you have to guess which way they'll DI the footstool, and unless you grabbed them right in the middle, they can probably just DI towards the center of the stage, then DI the f-smash properly and always live.

Nothing on the second stock was true, marth could up-b out at any point, tech'd the fair, DI'd the footstools, etc.

Also amusingly enough, Marth and Lucina are the characters most susceptible to this, so it's basically just a matchup specific thing against them on flat stages.

 

[YerTheBestAROUND]

About , it is becoming more and more into 's favor...

Pretty much every match up is becoming more and more in Sheik's favor. Sheik is insane and she's got so much more room for growth. I really wish Mr. R and VoiD would improve their needle camping game (Last I saw a VoiD match he was getting better at it though) because I really don't think they would lose nearly as much if they would take the time to stop rushing/jumping in on their opponents and instead just controlled a huge amount of space.
The only meta relevant characters that comes to mind that are experiencing an improvement in their Sheik MU is Marth and Lucina, coming closer to even. It's still in Sheik's advantage and I expect it to stay that way but it's still better than it was.

 

[ReRaze]

Yea it works. I've known about this ever since I saw the greninja stuff and thought to use cape like shuriken.

It's pretty hard getting the nair though, since you gotta read DI. it was also easiest on pit/marth. Still don't really believe it's viable.

That Mario footstool stuffs, while not necessarily easy, look like they have a lot of chances of being used.

They start off from D-throw then U-air, literally Mario's BnB on the entire cast. The jab lock doesn't look all that hard either. Cape the other way, fast-fall, bam. If they're not in the charged F-smash kill range, drop in an untechable F-air spike and you can repeat that very thing. But I'll want to lab this out first before spewing assumptions.

I literally fleshed out the entire thing few posts back......
How the cape made it harder, how DI affects it, what are it's limitations etc.

-The marth in the Video did not DI at all. DI normally makes footstool combos alot harder.
-The cape actually limits the combo since it prevents mario from reacting to DI as if people DI behind his cape he cannot followup as cape halts momentum, If he waits to react to DI he can't followup with a nair in time after the cape so he has to read DI.
But even on some characters like yoshi the cape halts too much momentum for him to followup even with a read.
-Mario can actually do this without the cape and in fact it makes the combo work a little better on some characters whom mario can't followup after using the cape due to lack of momentum and allows him to react to DI.
-A limitation of this combo is, it doesn't work as well on faster fallers, marth is exceptionally easy to footstool combo from my experience due to his floatiness, it doesn't work on say for e.g cloud.
-It doesn't work as well if you are lower to the ground when you initiate the footstool, and so it works better at higherish percents which limits the percent ranges since it clashes with when nair stops locking.
-Depending on the opponents air speed or fall speed or size and your own reaction time you may have to read DI rather than react.
-Something dope is that you can lock with a fireball instead which can work in some scenarios where nair can't, albeit unreliably for obvious reasons.

If I said something wrong though please do correct me.

If you hoard a tech, you also run the risk of someone else posting it to social media. Then youre just some guy claiming he discovered obscure tech but decided to keep it.

Aaaand then there are people like ESAM, making a vid on a tech someone else discovered and naming it himself

 

[FeelMeUp]

I guess to close off this edition of Sheik talk I'll mention some mid tier or lower characters I think do waaaaay better vs Sheik than most would expect:

 

[Murlough]

I guess to close off this edition of Sheik talk I'll mention some mid tier or lower characters I think do waaaaay better vs Sheik than most would expect:

Well, I feel much less like a fraud now. A guy played me in grands at a recent local and 3-0'd me with LM while I was playing Sheik. He made me question whether or not I should just play street fighter.

Mewtwo isn't easy to ledge trap at all, probably the hardest in the game.

In fact, I'm counting now and every single time abadango got off the ledge vs void at CEO he either hits void back or got back for free. (In fact, the tragic stretchering happened while void was trying to pressure aba's return from the ledge)

M2 Bar none has the safest return to neutral in the game. With confusion to stuff the ledge shield hold option, his airdodge + fair to defend against ledge jump challenges, plus instant shadowball ledge get-up and teleport for mix-ups. Also don't forget his ability to airdodge endlessly to the other side of the stage.

And sheik's kill potential, no matter how optimized still pales in comparison to m2's. I also see both void and mr. r going for uthrow stuff vs aba and it never works so I'm inclined to believe it's merely a mix-up. Meanwhile, when m2 uthrows sheik...

Sheik can ledge trap Mewtwo without too much effort actually. Mewtwo isn't DK or anything but if the Sheik is smart and knows the matchup well it really isn't much of a challenge. (I play both decently)

As already stated, Void isn't the best at ledge trapping.

"Don't forget his ability to airdodge endlessly to the other side of the stage."

Wat. No. Just no. Even if that were true Sheik has the speed to keep up with Mewtwo. Running away and airdodging to the other side of the stage doesn't accomplish anything unless the Sheik starts charging needles for whatever reason.

 

[YerTheBestAROUND]

I guess to close off this edition of Sheik talk I'll mention some mid tier or lower characters I think do waaaaay better vs Sheik than most would expect:

Mac does very well vs Sheik right now. Two neutral monsters duking it out. Tbh, I think Mac has a better neutral than Sheik (in this MU), it's kinda what he was designed for, it just doesn't make up for his really bad disadvantage and okay advantage. Basically all Mac has to make sure he does is keep his mid air jump. That means not even bothering trying to jump out of most Sheik strings, especially fair, and avoiding Sheik's rather linear edge guarding. Sheik lacking a dair like Falcon or Link that is useful close to the stage makes it a little easier for Mac to recover low but I'm still waiting for more Sheiks to jump off and use Needles towards the ledge to catch Mac that way, something we've seen VoiD do to Fox players. I think once that starts happening it'll be a little rougher.

 

[Y2Kay]

Mewtwo obviously has Mix ups to patch up his issues at the edge, but his disadvantage is no where near elite. ZSS, Bayo, and Sheik are several steps ahead of him. His disadavantage is above average. It's better than Fox's and Rosa's at least.