Official 4BR Tier List v2.0 - Competitive Impressions

[Onoh]

See it for yourself:
Marth's changelog
Lucina's changelog

Before the last patch that buffed them, both of them were arguably Bottom 15 material. Nowadays, both of them are Top 25 minimum. Some people even rate Marth as Top 15 (me included). So yeah, the buffs were significant.

Up tilt was horrible in the beginning jeez. Dancing blade was made more reliable as a move and their edgeguarding is much better thanks to added damage of aerials.

 

[TheGoodGuava]

Charizard is not that easy for Lucario tbh

Destroys him in the neutral, consistent killing, edgeguards his recovery for free (dsmash is ridiculous), and can play keep away super effectively

 

[Laken64]

So uh, Larry Lurr said this was his top 10 in no order











While saying Rosa is overrated and Corrin has the 2nd best combo game, best 2 framer, and kill set ups.

Though I am a Corrin main i'm a bit confused on why he's here, and having the 2nd best combo game is WAYY to far imo. Sure has one of the if not the best combos/strings of all the Swordfighters ( the only one that can match/do better)
but saying that when you have ... it makes no sense really. I'm also iffy on "best 2 framer also because of's clap of nightmares and's u tilt and some others but IP and Fsmash are very good in their own right. And lastly, Corrin does have a good amount of kill set-ups most of them coming from DFS, DL, and others such as FF Fair to Fair to Fair to 17% Bite, other characters have better and Corrin's meta is still new compared to others, being overshadowed by on release so only time can tell for that when Corrin's meta truly develops. Also is far more deserving of a spot on this list.

 

[PK Gaming]

So uh, Larry Lurr said this was his top 10 in no order











While saying Rosa is overrated and Corrin has the 2nd best combo game, best 2 framer, and kill set ups.

Haha

It seems like every top player thinks Corrin is top tier, meanwhile i'm sitting here being all like

Don't get me wrong, I'd love for the character to be top tier but... Corrin hasn't really earned it yet. Her tournament results are good, but not great. And while Side B is godlike, flaws in her moveset definitely hold her back from being a top tier threat. He brings it up way, way too often but Nidtendofreak is right on the money in regards to Corrin being overrated by virtue of her potential alone. Corrin mains are finding cool and impressive techs all the time, and the best Corrin mains are legitimately doing fantastic, but we're simply not there yet. We can't really hang out with the big boys (and girls) of Smash yet.

There needs to be more.

 

[blackghost]

When we say "combo game" are we referring to how much reward a character gets agianst an opponent DI'ing correctly or incorrectly? SDI as well? because i feel thats an important distinction. ALso do we include how easy it is to start a combo with a chaarcter or are we treating that as a separate category?
I really struggle to see how in terms of combo game it how is it not a discussion that starts with bayo, ryu, and shiek and goes to other characters from there?

 

[FeelMeUp]

if we're going by true combo game it's bayo sheik and ryu, no contest. corrin isn't up there with them.
if it's going by "how much can you get off of getting in advantage once" i'd put it on fox sheik and bayo.

 

[sedrf]

There was a problem fetching the tweet

Xaltis made a rosa mu chart

 

[FeelMeUp]

a few matchups are overly pessimistic.
rosa definitely beats both diddy and fox, and some of the wins should be a bit worse(for the chars vs Rosa)

 

[Bobert]

There was a problem fetching the tweet

Xaltis made a rosa mu chart

Xaltis' reasoning for beating Falcon that hard seems a bit odd when she has Cloud as a -2 who's recovery is even worse without Limit. Rosalina's recovery isn't really that fantastic itself either considering it lacks a hitbox and is easy to intercept, especially as Falcon. That doesn't make it +2 in Falcon's favor.

 

[my_T]

IIRC abadango also thinks very highly of lucario

list is about 3 months old

まあ1.1.5のキャラランクはこんなもんかなと
Tier list ver 1.1.5 imo pic.twitter.com/AJgPD9nnSi

— あばだんご🍡 | SNB (@Abadango) May 18, 2016

 

[TheGoodGuava]

Xaltis' reasoning for beating Falcon that hard seems a bit odd when she has Cloud as a -2 who's recovery is even worse without Limit.

For probably the millionth time, recovery doesn't dictate a match up. Cloud deals with Luma very well unlike Falcon

 

[Bobert]

For probably the millionth time, recovery doesn't dictate a match up. Cloud deals with Luma very well unlike Falcon

Recovery not dictating the match-up was the point I was making. Somebody asked why she thought Rosalina was + 2 vs Falcon and the only reason she gave was "he dies if he's offstage". Doesn't Falcon deal with Luma decently though?

 

[BananaBake]

Recovery not dictating the match-up was the point I was making. Somebody asked why she thought it was Rosalina was + 2 vs Falcon and the only reason she gave was "he has a bad recovery and should be gimped every time". Doesn't Falcon deal with Luma decently though?

Dash attack kinda works

sometimes

not really tho

and maybe dtilt

 

[Nah]

So uh, Larry Lurr said this was his top 10 in no order











While saying Rosa is overrated and Corrin has the 2nd best combo game, best 2 framer, and kill set ups.

Corrin needs to get down from there or she's gonna hurt herself

 

[wedl!!]

There was a problem fetching the tweet

Xaltis made a rosa mu chart

Um... Cloud and Bayonetta having 7:3 advantages over Rosalina? Do I even have to explain how ridiculous that is?

 

[my_T]

One thing corrin has going for her combo game is that it demands total respect. As good as fox and sheiks combo game is they still have to take into account get-off-me moves like luigi nair, ness, nair, etc; Corrin gives no ****s about stuff like that. It's very difficult to fight your way out of corrins combos/juggles because of disjoints, start up and FAF frames on her aerials.

 

[DanGR]

A Xaltis 30:70 is more like everyone else's 35:65 or maybe even 40:60. The tier separation in that chart is more important than the actual ratings.

Also, I'd say overall those matchups are fairly optimistic.

 

[Fenny]

There was a problem fetching the tweet

Xaltis made a rosa mu chart

>Bayo 30:70

I M P O S S I B L E

The MU is in no way favourable for Rosa, sure, but it is definitely, while hard, manageable if played smartly. Like Samsora vs Capt. Zack at CCC

Putting her and Cloud on the same tier of difficulty as the guy who she effectively spawns at death percent against is ludicrous

 

[TimidKitsune129]

Just an fyi, Larry didn't say Corrin had the second best combo game. He said she had the second best counter.

He did say she had a ridiculous combo game and kill setups though, which I don't disagree with.

 

[|RK|]

There was a problem fetching the tweet

Xaltis made a rosa mu chart

I highly disagree that Kirby/Rosa is 3:7. Rosas hella inflate that number on every MU chart lol. But I suppose there's nothing to do but wait for proof/prove it.

 

[PK Gaming]

Just an fyi, Larry didn't say Corrin had the second best combo game. He said she had the second best counter.

He did say she had a ridiculous combo game and kill setups though, which I don't disagree with.

Okay, that makes more sense

But i'm not sure why her having the 2nd best counter is particularly notable when the gap between the best counter (Witch Time) and the 2nd best counter is massive. Corrin's counter is still ruthlessly strong, but it's the definition of niche. You won't see it used all that often.

 

[Nobie]

Man, you Corrins better not be selling your Surge Counter short. That thing is DUMB STRONG.

Sure, it got nerfed, but that's because it was ridiculous, and now it's just super good. It being a vertical knockback counter and both great knockback and knockback growth means even tilts can often lead to death at surprisingly low percents.

 

[BTVolta]

Recovery not dictating the match-up was the point I was making. Somebody asked why she thought Rosalina was + 2 vs Falcon and the only reason she gave was "he dies if he's offstage". Doesn't Falcon deal with Luma decently though?

Gentleman, Bair and dash attack all knock luma away at 0% and I think Uair does as well if it has some percent on it. Dash grab also kinda works since it can separate them.

Xaltis did give a very narrow view of the MU so it's hard to take her seriously. When questioned about falln and Dabuz playing the MU and their thoughts she stated "They play the MU bad" (that's paraphrased). I believe Dabuz had the MU at even and Falln had it at 55:45 Rosa advantage(listed as Rosa favored but volatile).

 

[Ghostbone]

Pretty much every other Rosa or Cloud player has come to the conclusion that the matchups is even or Rosa favoured at this stage.

Shaya can confirm this for me, but iirc while ZeRo was in Japan, kirihara was the only player to beat his Cloud in a first to 10 set.

So Xaltis is definitely way off about that one, and Rosa vs Yoshi is another matchup that has been demonstrably terrible for Yoshi at top level. In my opinion she's wrong about the other disadvantageous matchups (far too pessimistic about the character) but idk if results for bayo/diddy/pikachu/mario are conclusive enough to really prove that.

 

[outfoxd]

Not as bad as Xaltis puts it for DH with his independence of projectiles, fact that Rosa can't GP gunshots, and her being light enough for pup to kill easier meaning he doesn't just get shut our. Rayquaza actually puts it at a slight disadvantage instead of a huge one.

 

[L9999]

I highly disagree that Kirby/Rosa is 3:7. Rosas hella inflate that number on every MU chart lol. But I suppose there's nothing to do but wait for proof/prove it.

Can't Rosa wall out Kirby until he dies?

 

[Mr. Johan]

Counter Surge on a Levin Uair kills Robin at 47%.

Never sell this Counter short, lol.

 

[PK Gaming]

Man, you Corrins better not be selling your Surge Counter short. That thing is DUMB STRONG.

Sure, it got nerfed, but that's because it was ridiculous, and now it's just super good. It being a vertical knockback counter and both great knockback and knockback growth means even tilts can often lead to death at surprisingly low percents.

Haha, well yeah. You haven't lived until you killed some character 30% just for hitting Down Air near the top of the stage. It's just the commitment for going for a counter is pretty big. I only go for Counter Surge for ledge guarding certain characters or as a landing mixup once in a blue moon. Going for a desperation counter kill is just asking for you to get smacked.

 

[Jjab430]

For probably the millionth time, recovery doesn't dictate a match up. Cloud deals with Luma very well unlike Falcon

...You're kidding, right? Rapid jab kills luma from like the middle of the stage regardless of percent, gentleman and dash attack put it into tumble at 0, and spaced back air does the job as well. Not to mention that the high damage output on his attacks allows him to kill it in 4-5 hits straight up if he fails to get it off stage. And that the slide on his dash grab combined with his great burst mobility makes it difficult for Luma to interrupt his punishes. Falcon is one of the best characters at safely dealing with Luma, probably second to only Metaknight. I thought that Fatality vs. Dabuz at SSC made this painfully obvious but I guess I was wrong.

No way in hell that Falcon Rosa is even close to 30:70. It's arguably slightly in his favor.

 

[ぱみゅ]

Counter Surge on a Levin Uair kills Robin at 47%.

Never sell this Counter short, lol.

It can be even less against an overextension in the air. Seriously, Counters are not THAT bad in this game, and since Corrin's has vertical knockback that makes it specially dangerous.

 

[Y2Kay]

Its sooo obvious that two people have referenced these great tools Pit apparently has without even telling us what they are. Seems like a lazy, thought terminating statement with no substance.

I didn't go into much detail because it get's forgotten constantly. Me talking about how awesome that up smash is nothing new, ask some of the older posters.

At the end of the day, the conversation always go back to Pit being "perfectly balanced" and "the definition of honest". It's a cringy statement that doesn't really display much knowledge about the character.

Kinda like how u hear people constantly calling Mewtwo a "glass cannon"

Before you rip on lucario, consider the fact that he can safely pressure shield with nair AND bair with no aura (nair +3 on shield, bair -1), which complements his strong grab data (and ridiculous command grab) and reward which allows safe options to condition shield and grab fishing at any point. Which is the main reason why Diddy is such a good character. Nair actually begins to combo into grab on shield at low amounts of aura.



Also lucario's walk acceleration is very high, and he has one of the best and most usable crawls in the game, lucarios ability to bait in neutral using strictly movement is extremely good

Lucario's backward empty hops, b reverse / wavebounced force palms and aura spheres and force palms are very deadly indeed. Though he's not fast, his mobility definitely has great flow for the type of character he is.

 

[Ninj4pikachu]

It can be even less against an overextension in the air. Seriously, Counters are not THAT bad in this game, and since Corrin's has vertical knockback that makes it specially dangerous.

Corrin's isn't that bad... Unfortunately hers is really the only one that's fast enough to merit that many situations. I was utterly shocked when Ryo killed esam at idk which tournament by spamming counter against 3 extremely close thunder jolts esam tried to go in with quick attack assuming that he he could hit him in cool down, but nope. all three got countered and were seemingly unpublishable. The commentators couldn't believe her counter had that low of a cool down.

Not only that but as mentioned earlier her counter is *ahem* "DUMB STRONG" and creates a very high risk reward ratio for corrin. Who else has that fast of a counter that hits that hard? Who else's counter (greninja aside) has the fortune of having vertical knock back?

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Kinda like how u hear people constantly calling Mewtwo a "glass cannon"

But he still is a glass cannon. End of the day he's a large, light frame. Not super floaty necessarily, but he still qualifies. He's just a glass cannon that happens to be sitting on top of a fast set of wheels so he can dodge quite a fair bit. His actual physical durability for taking hits is still glass like.

 

[Y2Kay]

I didn't say that Mewtwo being a glass cannon isn't true.

I just said that it get's overstated so much that it should be obvious to everyone. Bringing it up doesn't add much to a Mewtwo discussion anymore.

 

[Hippieslayer]

I wanna talk a little bit about top players, their flaws and their strengths

Ally doesn't really excell when it comes to techskill, his movement isn't particularly crisp, his execution is far from flawless and he has a tendency to try and ignore the other players mindgames by just overriding them with his own by overwhelming them until they have to have play his game which he knows better than they do anyway, thats usually great, but when it doesnt work it tends to lose him initial games and occasionally sets, I think he'd benefit from playing every set like it was his last one instead of just going into stompmode until resistance is met. He should play smarter, is more or less what I'm saying, even so he's already one of the smartest players, I just think he could be even smarter if he played smart more of the time.

But when it comes to spotting transient windows of opportunity and capitalizing heavily of them he is kinda second to none though. When things line up a certain way so that certain opportunities appear briefly, Ally recognizes them insanely quickly and he sees the full extent of what they make possible and capitalizes accordningly. I believe he dropped a set to Zero now recently. Well in one recent set before that Ally demonstrated the quality I'm trying to describe very clearly.

Here's some examples vs Zero:

https://youtu.be/_OP4_7xMnLw?t=407

(very cold and calculated, zero was probably thinking oh crap i did a minor screw up and im gonna eat a guaranteed punish, he doesn't see the window of opportunity which ally immediately recognizes and makes the most of)

https://youtu.be/_OP4_7xMnLw?t=559

(ally knows from how the way hes got the setup for the kill that hes temporarily got a good read on zero and that zero is feeling pressured because he got read, when zero's gotten read he usually wants to get back into neutral asap, knowing this Ally sees a transient window of opportunity and goes straight for it, jumping forwards to bait zero into side-b'ing then going backwards and spiking him with Marios fair)

Here's another example vs Abadango:

https://youtu.be/5375FXrALwI?t=104

(Ally saw that transient window of opportunity long before Abadango did, the way he spaced the bair was clearly meant to allow him to land the d-smash which killed Abadango)<

https://youtu.be/5375FXrALwI?t=881

(This whole game is just Ally being way ahead)

When it comes to seeing regular openings Ally's good, so are most players. But when it comes to instantly spotting and going for the maximum capitalization in reaction to the brief appearance of a little out of the ordinary more obscure situational stuff he's king. I think that's what he excells at, and I think that's the ability which lets him condition his opponents to fear him. He likes to go for grabs a lot to make the oppornent scared of shielding and more prone to just throw stuff out trying to keep mario away, he likes to spam usmash (even whiffed ones send a message), and he likes to whiff fairs (even whiffed ones send a message), and he likes to keep the opponent offstage moreso than he does laying on damage via strings. All in all he like to plays in a way that intentionally causes stress. Thats nice and all, but Mario doesn't really kill that easily. Playing Mario the way Ally does works because it Ally, he gets the kills anyway by seizing opportunities before opponents realize they are there. Dying to something you completely failed to see coming but which your opponent clearly did is the most intimidating thing, and thats why the rest of Allys threat displays via usmashes and fairs are worth it for him. The opponent has to respect them, because it hard to tell the difference between an intentional whiff and window of opportunity which only Ally has seen. Thus he forces opponents to respect options which dont exist just by pretending to be utilizing options which while existing, can be seen by Ally alone. He could space more safely and go for more optimal combos damage vice. But his problem isn't damage anyway, nor is it really spacing either. His problem is killing, and I think that however dumb and unomptimal Allys playstyle might look at times, it really is close to optimal, because the characters greatest weakness is killing, and Allys greatest strength is his perception, letting him spot windows of opportunities allowing for kills. To me he is clearly the best Mario player given the reasons above.

All in all, what aids Ally the most as a player is his perception, anyone can react quickly, only people with Ally's level of perception transcend that, Ally reacts quickly (as do all top players), but more importantly he responds quickly, and his responses are calculated, the actions he takes are guided by a preconceived opening and the series of events it allows for, he sees the script glimmer before his eyes and plays it out with gusto. His reaction speed is really good, yeah, but its the optimized responses he reacts with that make him stand out, and the perception he has which lets him respond the way he does. He's got a lot of other pro's and con's, as do all top players. But I feel like the abovementioned is what really stands out about him.

Describing him like this, I intuitively feel like the other top player who most resembles him is Nairo. Havent ever given Nairo any deep thought tho. Anyone else got any thoughts on Ally? Do I have a point or is this just something I've thought up? Would love to hear other people talk a little more indepth about top players and their relationships to their characters.

Like When @Gheb (I think it was him?) described Komorikiri and how he played sonic, the method he employed and why he did it and why it set him apart from other sonic players. That was awesome and enlightening. I'm trying to write enlightening stuff too, but I dunno if I'm really knowledgeable enough.

 

[|RK|]

Can't Rosa wall out Kirby until he dies?

Not necessarily. Kirby can lock Luma in place until it dies with dtilt or utilt (and can put it into tumble at 0 with rapid jab or dash attack) and if he has the percent lead, he can crouch under Rosa's grabs and Rosa/Luma's jabs (and Luma Shot) to force more commital approaches. Multiple jumps help him escape trap scenarios easier than the likes of Bowser or other heavies.

Then there's the copy ability. Kirby's Luma is basically an instakill for Rosa's Luma that can't be GPd. At any charge (minus full charge), Kirby's Luma wins out. This is also pretty good for forcing options and establishing control.

And if you decide to inhale without taking the copy ability, star spit is also a really good Luma busting move. And no, Rosalina cannot control Luma while stuck in inhale. And Luma will float in front of Kirby as if it wants to be hit the entire time, so you can even jump with it to make Luma travel a little longer before hitting the ground.

The MU is likely still disadvantaged, don't get me wrong. But a 70:30 MU is - from my perspective - one in which the opponent takes away most of your strengths and capitalizes on your weaknesses so well that there's nothing you can do. I feel like the options I listed above are enough to allow Kirby a fighting chance.

 

[TheGoodGuava]

...You're kidding, right? Rapid jab kills luma from like the middle of the stage regardless of percent, gentleman and dash attack put it into tumble at 0, and spaced back air does the job as well. Not to mention that the high damage output on his attacks allows him to kill it in 4-5 hits straight up if he fails to get it off stage. And that the slide on his dash grab combined with his great burst mobility makes it difficult for Luma to interrupt his punishes. Falcon is one of the best characters at safely dealing with Luma, probably second to only Metaknight. I thought that Fatality vs. Dabuz at SSC made this painfully obvious but I guess I was wrong.

No way in hell that Falcon Rosa is even close to 30:70. It's arguably slightly in his favor.

for some reason I keep thinking Falcon is Falco... **** me
Yeah the Falcon thing is dead on, recovery still isn't the entire matchup, etc
school is slowly killing me

 

[my_T]

I wanna talk a little bit about top players, their flaws and their strengths

Ally doesn't really excell when it comes to techskill, his movement isn't particularly crisp, his execution is far from flawless and he has a tendency to try and ignore the other players mindgames by just overriding them with his own by overwhelming them until they have to have play his game which he knows better than they do anyway, thats usually great, but when it doesnt work it tends to lose him initial games and occasionally sets, I think he'd benefit from playing every set like it was his last one instead of just going into stompmode until resistance is met. He should play smarter, is more or less what I'm saying, even so he's already one of the smartest players, I just think he could be even smarter.

But when it comes to spotting transient windows of opportunity and capitalizing heavily of them he is kinda second to none though. When things line up a certain way so that certain opportunities appear briefly, Ally recognizes them insanely quickly and he sees the full extent of what they make possible and capitalizes accordningly. I believe he dropped a set to Zero now recently. Well in one recent set before that Ally demonstrated the quality I'm trying to describe very clearly.

Here's some examples vs Zero:

https://youtu.be/_OP4_7xMnLw?t=407

(very cold and calculated, zero was probably thinking oh crap i did a minor screw up and im gonna eat a guaranteed punish, he doesn't see the window of opportunity which ally immediately recognizes and makes the most of)

https://youtu.be/_OP4_7xMnLw?t=559

(ally knows from how the way hes got the setup for the kill that hes temporarily got a good read on zero and that zero is feeling pressured because he got read, when zero's gotten read he usually wants to get back into neutral asap, knowing this Ally sees a transient window of opportunity and goes straight for it, jumping forwards to bait zero into side-b'ing then going backwards and spiking him with Marios fair)

Here's another example vs Abadango:

https://youtu.be/5375FXrALwI?t=104

(Ally saw that transient window of opportunity long before Abadango did, the way he spaced the bair was clearly meant to allow him to land the d-smash which killed Abadango)<

https://youtu.be/5375FXrALwI?t=881

(This whole game is just Ally being way ahead)

When it comes to seeing regular openings Ally's good, so are most players. But when it comes to instantly spotting and going for the maximum capitalization in reaction to the brief appearance of a little out of the ordinary more obscure situational stuff he's king. I think that's what he excells at, and I think that's the ability which lets him condition his opponents to fear him. He likes to go for grabs a lot to make the oppornent scared of shielding and more prone to just throw stuff out trying to keep mario away, he likes to spam usmash (even whiffed ones send a message), and he likes to whiff fairs (even whiffed ones send a message), and he likes to keep the opponent offstage moreso than he does laying on damage via strings. All in all he like to plays in a way that intentionally causes stress. Thats nice and all, but Mario doesn't really kill that easily. Playing Mario the way Ally does works because it Ally, he gets the kills anyway by seizing opportunities before opponents realize they are there. Dying to something you completely failed to see coming but which your opponent clearly did is the most intimidating thing, and thats why the rest of Allys threat displays via ussmashes and fairs are worth it for him. He could space more safely and go for more optimal combos damage vice. But his problem isn't damage anyway, nor is it really spacing either. His problem is killing, and I think that however dumb and unomptimal Allys playstyle might look, it really is optimal because it utilizes his greatest strength as a player to mitigate the greatest weakness of his character.

Totally agree with this. I think Ally, Nairo and Ranai clearly stand out when it comes to player vs player

 

[Kofu]

Haha, well yeah. You haven't lived until you killed some character 30% just for hitting Down Air near the top of the stage. It's just the commitment for going for a counter is pretty big. I only go for Counter Surge for ledge guarding certain characters or as a landing mixup once in a blue moon. Going for a desperation counter kill is just asking for you to get smacked.

One of Counter Surge's more impressive selling points is its extremely low cooldown on a successful counter. I don't have other frame data to compare but it seems to have the best recovery frames, even counting Witch Time.

But yeah, if it gets read in the first place you'll get punished.

 

[TimidKitsune129]

Counter Surge
Hit: Counter: 7-24 (Intangible: 6-7)
FAF: 64

Counter Surge Attack
Hit: 26 (Intangible: 1-49)
FAF: 50
Dmg: 8 (1.2×)
Ang: 80
BKB: 90
KBG: 74

Counter Surge Attack (Late)
Hit: 27-30
FAF: ---
Dmg: 8 (1.3×)
Ang: 90
BKB: 90
KBG: 68

It's intangible the whole way through.

Fair and balanced.

I think this would help against projectile camping, since you're completely intangible until the animation ends. So you can do what Ryo did to Esam at SSC, spam Counter Surge on Thunder Jolt until he overcommited.

Alternatively, you could run down the clock when you are in the lead. In this situation, Corrin has no reason to approach.