Official 4BR Tier List v1.0 - Competitive Impressions

[FeelMeUp]

Could you expand on your reasoning? This is incredibly vague. A lot of us Marth's would disagree with that statement. She does have an advantage of course, but the match-up is way more manageable after the changes both have received.

Yeah, sure.
I believe they're all solidly 6:4 and I'll explain after I finish my MH session.

 

[Luco]

A question I've always wanted to ask: why is Lucas considered worse than Ness?

It may just be bias since my local has a really good Lucas that tends to beat everyone but its still baffling.

Lucas has a fantastic combo game, defensive game, his recovery is straight up better than Ness's. The only thing I can think of that Lucas wants from Ness is his back throw. Other than that he just seems better.

EDIT: He MAY even want the tip of Ness's PK thunder to harass opponents from a distance. However, Lucas has a much better edge guarding game than Ness. He can go much deeper than Ness with his superior recovery.

You guys have both Fau and Blueberry, the latter of which almost beat Dabuz haha.

Lucas' combos would be godlike if Nair wasn't so damn SDI-able. It seriously hurts his follow-ups off a grab (even impacts some footstool setups which would otherwise bring that right back). His edge-guarding game is also good but I'd hold back at actually being better than Ness - PKT tail gimping closes stocks on so many characters because it eats DJs and stops their momentum *really* easily, and makes MUs like Marth and Doc much easier than they'd otherwise be. Lucas' tail rarely has this effect - you're usually hitting with the head which can stage spike and cause ridiculous upBs on some characters but that's about it. Otherwise Lucas goes offstage himself and while he's still pretty safe it feels less effective to me than similar procedures with Ness.

Marth is a bad example funnily enough because even with that I'm tempted to say Lucas probably does a little better in that MU.

In terms of MUs, Lucas wants ones where he can force the approach. He shines in those MUs but should he be approaching things get ugly real fast - Peeps like Sheik, Greninja, WFT, force his hand and those MUs are much harder than they are for Ness.

I think Lucas is really decent and covers Ness' MUs super well with the exceptions of Sheik and Cloud but he's slightly more gimmicky and that comes at its costs versus good players, in addition to his neutral not flowing into things as easy as Ness.

 

[Shady Shaymin]

I would change Mewtwo and Zero Suit to yellow for Meta Knight, and Mario to yellow or green. There is little evidence to suggest Mario has an advantage in that match up outside of small anecdotal evidence and shady match up arguments. The most notable of which is Ally vs Leo, in which Ally went on to win GOML in that same tournament. Mewtwo has exceptional tools to battle Meta Knight because Mewtwo is an exceptional character, but Mewtwo is still prey to what Meta Knight feasts on. Exploitable recovery, light, large hurt box frame, susceptible to dying to pseudo up air death combos, and being a victim of strong combos lean me to believe if either character has to win the match up it is Meta Knight. Zero Suit is in the opposite situation as Mario regarding match up consensus for the moment. Leo managed to beat Nairo at GOML, but Ito was recently taken out by Marss. Given the tool set of both characters, I think Meta Knight could win this match up, but it is more likely that it is one of the most even match ups he has.

How is m2's recovery exploitable? It's certainly not sheik tier but I'd say it's still above average since he can stall with confusion, get lots of distance from his double jump air dodge, and be invulnerable when teleporting. Agree with everything else though.

 

[Aaron1997]

A stacked SolCal Weekly is going on tonight with ome Top level Talent from Tri State for 2GG KTAR.
https://www.twitch.tv/fadgames

Spoiler: Notables

Marss
K9
MR.E
Pugwest
Zenyou
Pink Fresh
Rich Brown
Nicko
Jonny Westside
DKwill
Karna
AngBad
Zan
SM
S2H

 

[Ulevo]

How is m2's recovery exploitable? It's certainly not sheik tier but I'd say it's still above average since he can stall with confusion, get lots of distance from his double jump air dodge, and be invulnerable when teleporting. Agree with everything else though.

Teleport does not have a hit box and is easy to 2F, and Mewtwo has to take certain recovery paths in order to avoid making himself vulnerable due to the nature of his double jump and how Teleport can wall bounce.

 

[Shady Shaymin]

Teleport does not have a hit box and is easy to 2F, and Mewtwo has to take certain recovery paths in order to avoid making himself vulnerable due to the nature of his double jump and how Teleport can wall bounce.

Teleport recoveries can't be 2f'd if they warp high. And I think "easy" is a stretch when describing any 2f punish.

 

[Funen1]

A question I've always wanted to ask: why is Lucas considered worse than Ness?

It may just be bias since my local has a really good Lucas that tends to beat everyone but its still baffling.

Lucas has a fantastic combo game, defensive game, his recovery is straight up better than Ness's. The only thing I can think of that Lucas wants from Ness is his back throw. Other than that he just seems better.

EDIT: He MAY even want the tip of Ness's PK thunder to harass opponents from a distance. However, Lucas has a much better edge guarding game than Ness. He can go much deeper than Ness with his superior recovery.

I wouldn't say it's so much that Lucas can go much deeper than Ness (beyond the extra length of his PKT2 of course) as it's less risky for him to go deep because he has more recovery options. A lot of Smash 4 players in general, and not just really low-level ones, still don't edgeguard very well, and Ness mains in particular because of the threat of one wrong move swinging the advantage back to the opponent and the fear that they will always end up capitalizing on it and gimping them. Luco 'd me on this, but Ness' PKT is very effective at catching people recovering, notably in different ways than how you'd use Lucas' PKT (a lot of what makes it good for juggling also applies to edgeguarding). And let's not forget Ness' aerials don't magically get gutted because he's offstage either - they're still very strong and can force a lot of characters to recover low, if they don't kill outright.

And I can definitely say Lucas wants Ness' U-air as well. But on a more serious note there, Ness' combo game is also pretty solid, though I'd argue not quite perfected by anyone yet. It's definitely not braindead-tier in terms of execution due to things like following DI (far from exclusive to Ness), but a lot of holes could still be closed up if more people just figure out what's true at what percents and stick with those, rather than repeatedly giving people free chances to escape.

If PKT was unaffected by attacks and such, then its knockback would be heavily reduced, most likely. It's supposed to invoke an extreme case of risk vs. reward. Do you manage to clip the ball or Ness before he can get going, or do you miss and get slammed with the force of 100 supernovas for doing so?

That's essentially Lucas' PKT(2) in a nutshell.

 

[Murlough]

and how Teleport can wall bounce.

This will almost never happen against a competent Mewtwo.

I'm not a high level player by any means but even I could figure out how to avoid the teleport glitch a few weeks into picking up the character. Really the only time you'll see this happen is if the Mewtwo panics.

 

[C0rvus]

Meta Knight loses to Fox, Sheik, Ryu, Mega Man... Not sure why they are listed as graciously as they are; a good chart aside from that, as far as I can tell.

Palutena isn't bad, but she isn't mid tier either imo. Her results are good, but her linearity and middling reward, ground game, and neutral as well as her relative difficulty with killing will eventually land her pretty low. But that's just me theorycrafting :^/

 

[EternalFlare]

I would need to see percents, but really when you are that close, most people will roll or keep blocking. When Ryu runs at you, generally trying to press something is how you get ****ed up.

Still its a pretty risk free way to get something going which is what Ryu really needs in his meta.

Set-play that yields good returns with minimal risk.

A good return would be an understatement in this case from such a low risk move.

If this is viable you're looking at 40% minimum. As you get a nair-->footstool-->soft nair reset-->level 2 focus->back hit fair which is already roughly 30% damage + whatever true followup you want after the fair.

Or if they are in kill range, a simple tilt into TSRK after the level 2 focus.

Continuing to block versus Ryu is risky as well as he has multiple moves that do tons of shield damage. And it doesn't have to be against grounded opponents only, a rising nair can catch jumps and landings.

Sounds great in theory, question is does it work on all characters? All kinds of DI? Is it limited to very specific percent ranges? I can't imagine the only reason you don't see Ryus using this or at least attempting it left and right is because it's somewhat technical to perform, Ryu mains should hardly be deterred if that's the only setback.

 

[iVoltage]

I'm pretty surprised people still think marth is better than lucinia tbh. Lucinia has way better movement and is more consistent overall. Tippers are really inconsistent and you can't kill without them while lucinia just kills at 80 off of a jab

 

[arbustopachon]

Their movement stats are the same tho.
Edit: i just ate the bait, didn't i?

 

[Ethan7]

way better movement

Since when?
Edit: what bait?

 

[iVoltage]

It's all about her consistency over marth.

 

[Ethan7]

iVoltage Well, I don't get it. Mind explaining it to me (or arbustopachon )?
Edit:Now I understand. Thanks arbustopachon.

 

[Nobie]

So I was futzing around with Jigglypuff in training mode, and I noticed that a player has a surprising amount of control over Pound. That said, I'm not sure how useful or practical it all is.

We all know about Rising Pound as a way to aid recovery, but did you know that you can do a Falling Pound as well?

Not only that, but you can even control the distance of a pound by holding backwards or forwards (or nothing!) as you do it. This is most obvious if you set it to 1/4 speed, but for example you can even get diagonal up and away pounds that travel higher but a shorter distance than a regular Rising Pound.

Personally, I can't do it because either it's not practical to do at real speed and/or my fingers aren't fast enough, but I wonder if there's any potential here for development. For example, could you use variable Pound distances to play a cross-up game with an opponent, force them to try and guess which side you'll end up on? Any Jigglypuff mains got any info?

 

[Kofu]

It's all about her consistency over marth.

Wrote this post a while ago. I think it's probably still relevant (but perhaps not totally accurate since I don't play either character).

Here's the way I see it.

Lucina is consistent. This isn't a bad thing. She has to worry less about spacing (not that she should ignore it though, she's got a sword and should play like it) and thus doesn't have to worry about getting a sweetspot to kill. She's probably easier to learn and can be more sure of her followups as she doesn't have to make a split-second reaction on whether a move was a tipper or not.

However, Marth has greater rewards for a trivial amount more risk (could be wrong here and there may not even be more risk). There are certainly instances where Lucina will kill before him. But played right Marth can get more reward and seal stocks faster than Lucina could ever hope to do. It's not a perfect analogy, but think of Zelda's FAir and BAir. Those moves are terrifyingly powerful when sweetspotted but are terrible when not. I kind of think of Marth's tippers as a dispersed lightning kick. Until kill percent they're not game-changers individually but over the course of a stock, game, and match the damage and safety add up, and he's got this extra kill potential on all of his moves that Lucina doesn't.

Basically it's Marth's higher reward (and slightly better range) that invalidate Lucina. Across the game's life the benefits you get from playing Marth and getting all those tippers (even though not all hits will be tippers) far outweigh the consistency you get from playing Lucina.

Lucina definitely has some points over Marth (NAir to FSmash is a big one) but I have a hard time seeing her as better when Marth has more opportunities to get greater reward.

 

[FamilyTeam]

Lucina definitely has some points over Marth (NAir to FSmash is a big one) but I have a hard time seeing her as better when Marth has more opportunities to get greater reward.

I am a loyal user of Lucina and not even I could tell if he was actually serious with what he said.
I wouldn't really know if it's worth bothering, for now.

 

[Game7a1]

So I was futzing around with Jigglypuff in training mode, and I noticed that a player has a surprising amount of control over Pound. That said, I'm not sure how useful or practical it all is.

We all know about Rising Pound as a way to aid recovery, but did you know that you can do a Falling Pound as well?

Not only that, but you can even control the distance of a pound by holding backwards or forwards (or nothing!) as you do it. This is most obvious if you set it to 1/4 speed, but for example you can even get diagonal up and away pounds that travel higher but a shorter distance than a regular Rising Pound.

Personally, I can't do it because either it's not practical to do at real speed and/or my fingers aren't fast enough, but I wonder if there's any potential here for development. For example, could you use variable Pound distances to play a cross-up game with an opponent, force them to try and guess which side you'll end up on? Any Jigglypuff mains got any info?

I only recently found out about controlling the distance of Pound (trying to find a reason as to why her momentum stops randomly when she Pounds into the ground), but I can talk about Falling Pound.

I use Falling Pound as a way to mixup my Ledge Recovery or offensive approach (I don't remember if it worked as a defensive option, like dodging). It's also good to hit an opponent below her and getting back to the ground.

That said, using the distance factor may play a role in evading some dangers right in front of her, but that's all I can think of. Given that you don't have to hold the stick to have the minimum distance, it may not be so hard to implement.

 

[Fenny]

It's all about her consistency over marth.

But for Martha at least, fighting people with spacing in mind is his game plan anyway.

You would be surprised the wonders those tipper buffs did for him. Consistency for Lucy is obviously a plus, but if you're playing Martha correctly getting tippers is a lot easier than it should be tbh. And bring able to kill people with a tipped Ftilt at the ledge isn't something to dismiss.

 

[Emblem Lord]

I'm pretty surprised people still think marth is better than lucinia tbh. Lucinia has way better movement and is more consistent overall. Tippers are really inconsistent and you can't kill without them while lucinia just kills at 80 off of a jab

Confirmed you have no idea what you are talking about.

Besides are sliding PP utilt, their movement is the same. And jab set-ups can all be jumped out of.

 

[valakmtnsmash4]

Hey @Das Koopa are you gonna count the fad weekly in your results chart? I know it had only 71 entrants, but it was relatively stacked with SoCal and tristate talent. Just wondering

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Please elaborate. I'm not buying your argument when you're presenting overly vague points. Why not give us her MU's? I thought you're one of the users who keeps up closely with results, no? Instead of waiting to be proven right, why not prove the other view wrong yourself?

If Palutena isn't bad because she has bad tilts or smashes, or bad moves in general, then why is she? You can't just waltz on in with an unusual opinion and not give detailed reasoning. I'm not disagreeing with you because you're wrong, but because you're not providing a very convincing argument.

I don't believe she's a good character either. But "low-mid at absolute best" is pushing it a little. Not with fairly good mobility, a decent combo game, and strong aerial game, which in my view is enough to deny her being a low-tier.

This isn't hard to get, just look at her moveset.

All of her tilts are bad. They lose to shield and roll - the two best defensive options - big time and due to their high startup also tend to lose to most stuff that comes from close range. The only thing they beat consistently are dodges but spotdodge is subpar compared to shield. And her utilt lasts too long to cover airdodges reliably.
In order to not get destroyed in close range you'll need at least one quick option that doesn't necessarily need a lot of range. Palutena lacks that option as her jab has a long startup period. What is she to do if somebody pokes her shield with a safe aerial that can't be shieldgrabbed? She doesn't have much of an answer to that. That's a fundamental flaw that can be abused by just about every character in the game and Palutena can't really do anything about it.
She heavily relies on the invincibility on bair and dash attack to cover numerous gaps that are left open by her jab, her tilts, her smashes and her specials ... by pretty much her whole moveset. That really should tell you all you need to know about her. If your character's moveset has that many holes that need to be covered by two moves [more or less, her grab is quite good as well] then it's just a matter of time until the character falls apart.

I think people inflate her results quite a bit. Prince Ramen does well at tournaments where he competes with Little Mac, Ike, Robin and Lucario. I mean no offence to any of those players or characters but whether you go even with or slightly beat Robin or not doesn't mean diddlysquat in the grand scheme of things. He did beat Zero last hit at CEO. That's a mighty personal achievement of his that he deserves credit for but should not cloud our judgment over the character he uses.
TLTC also exists and he probably has some impressive wins too but unless he has notable records against players like Xzax, CDK, RichBrown, Zenyou or Mr.CC [not even asking for as much as Void, Larry or k9] then we can't really say too much about his matchup specific results either. There really isn't as much to her results as people say.

 

[PURGE THEM LIKE THE]

You guys have both Fau and Blueberry, the latter of which almost beat Dabuz haha.

Lucas' combos would be godlike if Nair wasn't so damn SDI-able. It seriously hurts his follow-ups off a grab (even impacts some footstool setups which would otherwise bring that right back). His edge-guarding game is also good but I'd hold back at actually being better than Ness - PKT tail gimping closes stocks on so many characters because it eats DJs and stops their momentum *really* easily, and makes MUs like Marth and Doc much easier than they'd otherwise be. Lucas' tail rarely has this effect - you're usually hitting with the head which can stage spike and cause ridiculous upBs on some characters but that's about it. Otherwise Lucas goes offstage himself and while he's still pretty safe it feels less effective to me than similar procedures with Ness.

Marth is a bad example funnily enough because even with that I'm tempted to say Lucas probably does a little better in that MU.

In terms of MUs, Lucas wants ones where he can force the approach. He shines in those MUs but should he be approaching things get ugly real fast - Peeps like Sheik, Greninja, WFT, force his hand and those MUs are much harder than they are for Ness.

I think Lucas is really decent and covers Ness' MUs super well with the exceptions of Sheik and Cloud but he's slightly more gimmicky and that comes at its costs versus good players, in addition to his neutral not flowing into things as easy as Ness.

Adding to that, it's often pretty safe to hit Lucas' shield. His out of shield options are all slower than Ness'. Shield drop jab is faster than like, everything, but that's weak and leads to nothing. Down tilt can lead into maybe a grab if the enemy shields or DI's incorrectly.

Lucas really shouldn't be compared to Ness, though.

 

[Luco]

Adding to that, it's often pretty safe to hit Lucas' shield. His out of shield options are all slower than Ness'. Shield drop jab is faster than like, everything, but that's weak and leads to nothing. Down tilt can lead into maybe a grab if the enemy shields or DI's incorrectly.

Lucas really shouldn't be compared to Ness, though.

Shield drop is better leading to jab because jab --> things, whilst not true and sometimes not even safe is a fantastic mix-up that nets rewards even at high levels of play. But yeah, Lucas has a far inferior OoS game which hurts him.

And also yes, they don't really have to be compared and it probably hurts the perception of them to do so because suddenly "THEY'RE SEMI CLONES" and "Ness is a better Lucas". It's just convenient for me as a co-main because they also can be compared, just within reason like other characters you can compare within reason - similar mobility and weight stats among a few similarities in move designs means they can sometimes land in similar positions and have different ways of dealing with them.

 

[blackghost]

if lucas didnt have a tether grab i think he would be held in higher regard. currently there no reason to think that ness isnt better. now lucas is definitely got better combos and recovery but thats not all there is to a character.

 

[thehard]

Palutena is a bad character. She doesn't even have tilts and her jab has a lot of startup for a jab ... somebody -presumably from SoCal- is gonna figure out the matchup against her soonish and you'll never hear from Palutena ever again. I promise.

Oh man I thought this was satire and that's why I liked it originally.

 

[ElectricBlade]

I've been thinking of Clouds issues as a character because I've noticed mid level players struggle in the matchup and honestly play it really wrong. Here is my views on Clouds flaws and how to beat them, or just general Cloud counter play! So here is what I have come up with.


-Cloud has predictable jump ins, almost any character can atleast anti-air him consistently. Lucina and Marth for example can Ftilt, or most characters can swoop in under hitboxes like Jigglypuff and attack places where the hitbox "arcs" if they are spacing/approaching with Nair. It is similar to Marth counterplay in Melee

-Dair can be beaten simply by standing under platforms, or some characters can use Utilt like Lucina and Marth to attack the side of Cloud. Or some characters can just bait it out when Cloud is landing then full hop Bair him during the end lag or during the move (the move only covers the bottom of him) I'm pretty sure this is a universal option, and can be replaced by RAR Bair or Nair. Just do not go underneath him

-When Cloud is trying to land Limit cross slash there is a few things you should not be doing against him a lot. Things like jumping in on Cloud is a bad idea because Limit cross slash is the best anti-air in the game and is also relatively safe ish. You also should not do things like go to places where you will eventually be forced to land like the smashville platform or onto Battlefield platforms or whatever because LCS is a guaranteed hit when you are landing.
Also generally shielding ALOT and baiting out limit cross slash with empty hops into shield is a good idea, but don't shield to predictably because if you get grabbed and thrown offstage then LCS is really easy to hit depending on the character (Like Corrin, Falco/Fox, Ness, etc.)

-Speaking of landing. NEVER try to land into center stage. There is a few jukes you can do on Battlefield where you act like you are going to land on the side platforms and when he goes to Uair trap you onto the platform you double jump to center stage then take the advantage that is sort of a one trick pony. The place you really want to go is to the ledge. A lot of characters just can not handle his juggles so they need to go the ledge, Clouds ledge coverage isn't as good as other top tiers in my opinion unless you get hit by a meaty limit cross slash on neutral get up or get something read. But in general it's better then trying to land. I think most times Cloud is trying to land should end in an edgeguard situation.

-Another big problem I see that people do when trying to escape platform pressure against Cloud is that they always try to do then fast fall off of a platform, or shield an attack or jump out of shield. This is the most common habits I've seen, and mixing it up between Jump air dodge, attacking, rolling, attacking, shield and shield dropping will get you off the platforms generally unscathed unless the Cloud guesses right which option you decide to chose.

-As a general rule against Cloud and all sword characters (unless you have one yourself) jumping in on Cloud will very rarely work, his disjoint is to big to jump in on if Cloud is positioning himself just outside your jump arc. I see mid level Marios, Shieks, Ryus, Luigis etc. just jumping in on Cloud trying to get offensive pressure started and they just keep getting blown up for it and complain Cloud is bull****. Also Limit cross slash beats jump ins wanna put emphasis on that.

-If your character has a hard time getting passed Cloud walling abilities options like Dash forward roll behind, dash forward perfect pivot shield (this will force a misspaced aerial on block which you can punish) or even dash forward spot dodge can sometimes beat out Clouds walling options, but a smart Cloud player will have a lot of empty hopping so it may not always work. But it might work against a Tweek styled Cloud.

-One of Clouds under spoken biggest flaws is how medicore his ground game is, his fastest move is Jab which is frame 4. Utilt is an anti-air and does not hit grounded opponents to well that are in his face, Ftilt is actually an okay but -11 on block is pretty punishable offline with characters like Falcon or Sheik on block. And Dtilt is just bad. I think people need to condition Cloud to think jumping is bad so you can beat him on the ground consistently. I don't think every character can stop him, but Marcina, Cloud, Sheik, pretty much any top tier can discourage Cloud from jumping then dominate the ground game and combo him into an edgeguard situation. One of Clouds "better" tools on the ground is actually cross slash due to having pretty big reward and having the ability to mix it up on block if you are going to do Cross slash 1, 2, or 3

-Since I mentioned edgeguarding I just want to say so many players are **** at edgeguarding Cloud. I'd recommend watching these two vods https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=22WnDCRluCg (This one is more useful in my opinion, it starts at around 17 minutes in) and https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I6ftGwBPBs4 (I think this is very difficult and I've never seen anyone actually pull it off, but hey it's a thing. <3 u Esam) I made a document awhile ago of all of Clouds recovery mixups I have seen top cloud players use. It is about 3 months old but I think most clouds recover poorly so it will be useful most likely. http://pastebin.com/LVySmRjT

-Something that not nearly enough Clouds do is dash dance SMARTLY. But when a Cloud does do it right most people actually have no clue how to handle it, a very common situation is when someone is cornered and shield while a Cloud dash dances outside your longest aerial range OoS. And most people jump in the situation and try to attack Cloud! I think people should always mix up there OoS options no matter what against Cloud. If Cloud is dash dancing when you are in the center of the stage just walking forward will steal space from him and make him lose some option utility and put him in an upclose position. (I can elaborate on Cloud dash dance uses and counterplay to it if anyone wants)

-I think the biggest thing that bothers players is the campy styled Cloud play, the one that stays on the platforms all day and stuff. And tbh my neutral is like that until limit comes into play and people handle the situation so bad. I'll give some examples

-When Cloud is on the Smashville platform people try to attack the front of Cloud often! Dtilt>Uair becomes true here (I'm 99% sure it is) and peopel jump right into Dtilt range, he covers the front of him extremely well with Dtilt and Blade beam. You can attack below him but he can Nair. But that means he is giving up his front coverage. You got to mix up how and where you attack him from. You can do things like Bait out Dtilt by jumping at him, fast falling under it then double jumping back up with a punish. Characters like Diddy and Falcon have options to beat shield while being airborne so use it to threaten Cloud. And on Battlefield people try to do the same thing then get hit by falling Uair because it beats a lot of aerials with a good prediction.

-As a small last thing here is a thing that SilentDoom wrote on counterplay towards Limit Cross slash. http://pastebin.com/MRz8bQDF

Sorry for the wall of text, I've just been working on Cloud counterplay abit so I wanted to show it off! If you have anything you think I should add just tell me and I will. Or if you need help with a certain part of the mu ill help.

 

[Shady Shaymin]

I've been thinking of Clouds issues as a character because I've noticed mid level players struggle in the matchup and honestly play it really wrong. Here is my views on Clouds flaws and how to beat them, or just general Cloud counter play! So here is what I have come up with.


-Cloud has predictable jump ins, almost any character can atleast anti-air him consistently. Lucina and Marth for example can Ftilt, or most characters can swoop in under hitboxes like Jigglypuff and attack places where the hitbox "arcs" if they are spacing/approaching with Nair. It is similar to Marth counterplay in Melee

-Dair can be beaten simply by standing under platforms, or some characters can use Utilt like Lucina and Marth to attack the side of Cloud. Or some characters can just bait it out when Cloud is landing then full hop Bair him during the end lag or during the move (the move only covers the bottom of him) I'm pretty sure this is a universal option, and can be replaced by RAR Bair or Nair. Just do not go underneath him

-When Cloud is trying to land Limit cross slash there is a few things you should not be doing against him a lot. Things like jumping in on Cloud is a bad idea because Limit cross slash is the best anti-air in the game and is also relatively safe ish. You also should not do things like go to places where you will eventually be forced to land like the smashville platform or onto Battlefield platforms or whatever because LCS is a guaranteed hit when you are landing.
Also generally shielding ALOT and baiting out limit cross slash with empty hops into shield is a good idea, but don't shield to predictably because if you get grabbed and thrown offstage then LCS is really easy to hit depending on the character (Like Corrin, Falco/Fox, Ness, etc.)

-Speaking of landing. NEVER try to land into center stage. There is a few jukes you can do on Battlefield where you act like you are going to land on the side platforms and when he goes to Uair trap you onto the platform you double jump to center stage then take the advantage that is sort of a one trick pony. The place you really want to go is to the ledge. A lot of characters just can not handle his juggles so they need to go the ledge, Clouds ledge coverage isn't as good as other top tiers in my opinion unless you get hit by a meaty limit cross slash on neutral get up or get something read. But in general it's better then trying to land. I think most times Cloud is trying to land should end in an edgeguard situation.

-Another big problem I see that people do when trying to escape platform pressure against Cloud is that they always try to do then fast fall off of a platform, or shield an attack or jump out of shield. This is the most common habits I've seen, and mixing it up between Jump air dodge, attacking, rolling, attacking, shield and shield dropping will get you off the platforms generally unscathed unless the Cloud guesses right which option you decide to chose.

-As a general rule against Cloud and all sword characters (unless you have one yourself) jumping in on Cloud will very rarely work, his disjoint is to big to jump in on if Cloud is positioning himself just outside your jump arc. I see mid level Marios, Shieks, Ryus, Luigis etc. just jumping in on Cloud trying to get offensive pressure started and they just keep getting blown up for it and complain Cloud is bull****. Also Limit cross slash beats jump ins wanna put emphasis on that.

-If your character has a hard time getting passed Cloud walling abilities options like Dash forward roll behind, dash forward perfect pivot shield (this will force a misspaced aerial on block which you can punish) or even dash forward spot dodge can sometimes beat out Clouds walling options, but a smart Cloud player will have a lot of empty hopping so it may not always work. But it might work against a Tweek styled Cloud.

-One of Clouds under spoken biggest flaws is how garbage his ground game is, his fastest move is Jab which is frame 4. Utilt is an anti-air and does not hit grounded opponents to well that are in his face, Ftilt is actually an okay but -11 on block is pretty punishable offline with characters like Falcon or Sheik on block. And Dtilt is just bad. I think people need to condition Cloud to think jumping is bad so you can beat him on the ground consistently. I don't think every character can stop him, but Marcina, Cloud, Sheik, pretty much any top tier can discourage Cloud from jumping then dominate the ground game and combo him into an edgeguard situation. One of Clouds "better" tools on the ground is actually cross slash due to having pretty big reward and having the ability to mix it up on block if you are going to do Cross slash 1, 2, or 3

-Since I mentioned edgeguarding I just want to say so many players are **** at edgeguarding Cloud. I'd recommend watching these two vods https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=22WnDCRluCg (This one is more useful in my opinion, it starts at around 17 minutes in) and https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I6ftGwBPBs4 (I think this is very difficult and I've never seen anyone actually pull it off, but hey it's a thing. <3 u Esam) I made a document awhile ago of all of Clouds recovery mixups I have seen top cloud players use. It is about 3 months old but I think most clouds recover poorly so it will be useful most likely. http://pastebin.com/LVySmRjT

-Something that not nearly enough Clouds do is dash dance SMARTLY. But when a Cloud does do it right most people actually have no clue how to handle it, a very common situation is when someone is cornered and shield while a Cloud dash dances outside your longest aerial range OoS. And most people jump in the situation and try to attack Cloud! I think people should always mix up there OoS options no matter what against Cloud. If Cloud is dash dancing when you are in the center of the stage just walking forward will steal space from him and make him lose some option utility and put him in an upclose position. (I can elaborate on Cloud dash dance uses and counterplay to it if anyone wants)

-I think the biggest thing that bothers players is the campy styled Cloud play, the one that stays on the platforms all day and stuff. And tbh my neutral is like that until limit comes into play and people handle the situation so bad. I'll give some examples

-When Cloud is on the Smashville platform people try to attack the front of Cloud often! Dtilt>Uair becomes true here (I'm 99% sure it is) and peopel jump right into Dtilt range, he covers the front of him extremely well with Dtilt and Blade beam. You can attack below him but he can Nair. But that means he is giving up his front coverage. You got to mix up how and where you attack him from. You can do things like Bait out Dtilt by jumping at him, fast falling under it then double jumping back up with a punish. Characters like Diddy and Falcon have options to beat shield while being airborne so use it to threaten Cloud. And on Battlefield people try to do the same thing then get hit by falling Uair because it beats a lot of aerials with a good prediction.

-As a small last thing here is a thing that SilentDoom wrote on counterplay towards Limit Cross slash. http://pastebin.com/MRz8bQDF

Sorry for the wall of text, I've just been working on Cloud counterplay abit so I wanted to show it off! If you have anything you think I should add just tell me and I will. Or if you need help with a certain part of the mu ill help.

This is what we need more of in this thread. Thank you for this.

 

[ElectricBlade]

This is what we need more of in this thread. Thank you for this.

No problem! Glad you like it

 

[Baby_Sneak]

Cloud doesn't have a garbage ground game though lol. It's not top tier, but it's far from garbage.

 

[ElectricBlade]

Cloud doesn't have a garbage ground game though lol. It's not top tier, but it's far from garbage.

You are right, Its mediocre but not garbage. Ill edit that

 

[Baby_Sneak]

On another note, Playing lame is Fun. Really feels like a battle of chess (and I really hate using that analogy to fighting games). I was playing bayo against a guy who was decent with cloud and I forced him to approach. It was fun watchin him struggle to infiltrate my defense. He tried tk outcamp me, but forgot I have a strong projectile game and he doesn't. It was amazing :3

But playing lame to me is only fun when both characters have answers to what is thrown at them. It's not fun to play lame against Doctor Mario, Ganon, Kirby, etc... Because you know they can't deal with that, like, at all (unless they're gods of shield, rolling, and SHADs, then it gets very fun). This is one of the reasons why I suggest buffing instead of nerfing at this point in time; I'm more interested in a ganondorf that doesn't get invalidated because of zoning or any lame play. I'm more interested in a Robin, Roy, ROB, Olimar, and idk, Roy who don't completely fall apart when they're hit. I'd be more interested in a falco, or a doctor Mario who have a actual strong projectile game to make up for their sluggish stats.

It was fun for me to play against cloud because I know he has ways to deal with it successfully (fast dash speed, ridiculous frame data with a long sword, a projectile of his own, limit, etc...). He has to respect my bullets, and I have to respect his vertical spacing.

EDIT: you know, I think I figured out why people really don't like lame, zoning playstyles. In their mind, there are very little ways in countering such a style and they view it to be unbeatable (because when you play against lame sheik, lame villager, or even lame Mario (idk about lame Mario frfr), it can feel impossible).

 

[L9999]

But I digress, playing lame is only fun when both characters have answers to what is thrown at them. It's not fun to play lame against Doctor Mario, Ganon, Kirby, etc... Because you know they can't deal with that very well (unless they're gods of shield, rolling, and SHADs, then it gets very fun). However, zoning against diddy and the top tier characters?

It is not fun, but it is effective. There is not a single reason why would you approach any of this characters anyways.

 

[Baby_Sneak]

It is not fun, but it is effective. There is not a single reason why would you approach any of this characters anyways.

You ain't telling me anything new. I just wish Ganon had a actual way to deal with the dumb stuff we (bayo, villager, mega man, diddy Kong, sheik, etc...) can do to him. If I was the dev, I think I'd just slap a ton of invincibility frames on wizkick and make his dash speed faster.

 

[Mr. Johan]

Something I've noticed Clouds in my area (8 of the PR here in OK use him, lol) do recently is, instead of LCSing recoveries as they predict they'll move up at that time, they instead dash off and B-reverse Limit Blade Beam onto the ledge corner itself.

LBB activates there and most characters have no choice but to go right into it. The knockback angle is low enough to ensure a stage collision at the corner, and because of the variance in hitlag when characters rise into a long lasting move like this, it becomes very difficult to time the wall tech correctly.

idk, just something to think about. It guarantees the 2-frame so for characters like Sonic and Corrin, this may be superior over LCS catching.

 

[Ulevo]

Teleport recoveries can't be 2f'd if they warp high. And I think "easy" is a stretch when describing any 2f punish.

This will almost never happen against a competent Mewtwo.

I'm not a high level player by any means but even I could figure out how to avoid the teleport glitch a few weeks into picking up the character. Really the only time you'll see this happen is if the Mewtwo panics.

You're both missing the point. I am not suggesting that Teleport can be 2F'd if recovered high, or that that competent Mewtwo's will consistently wall bounce. But to avoid these vulnerabilities, certain recovery patterns are required, and this is an inherent weakness.

Also, 2Fing recoveries that pose no risk to the assaulter are not difficult.

Meta Knight loses to Fox, Sheik, Ryu, Mega Man... Not sure why they are listed as graciously as they are; a good chart aside from that, as far as I can tell.

I think the Fox match up is deserving. Fox loses to disjoints, good shield game, and strong edge guard strategies, all of which Meta Knight has. They are also relatively equal in kill power, with Meta Knight having more flexibility in this area. Fox has better frame data and slightly better mobility in certain areas.

 

[Dusk Pit]

There's definitely a noticable gap between the Pits... Pit's got the RC arrows that are like 45 frames of commitment compared to the straight ones that are practically 60. Against any slow character or a campy one that's an immediately noticable difference, and that's before offstage stuff. Pit's Ftilt is also a fairly reliable and useful kill move that fits into his gameplan better then Electroshock does, though that's not to say Electroshock is bad or anything. Actually I heard a while back that there was an actual, useful kill confirm of Nair > Electroshock but I'm not entirely sure what came of it...

Not entirely sure if the differences are significant enough to have Dark Pit be more then a spot or two below Pit but I'd rather have them together because they're interchangeable, like switching a custom move. If a situation where Dark Pit would be better comes up you pick him, and that's how people use him. (So almost never, lol.) Lucina, while interchangeable, arguably doesn't have any MUs or match-long situations where she'd be superior. There's maybe one notable player who uses the both of them like somebody would the Pits, and thus she should be ranked separately.

Eh, there is no gap between the Pits, just small differences. You can't define which Pit is straight up better because it's up to your playstyle and MUs. Arrows are no gamechanger nor is stronger side b. Besides, Dark Pit's arrows are better on neutral because they are faster and stronger but Pit's are superior off stage for obvious reasons. They both have the same amount of end lag in the air and there is little reason to use full hop arrows all the time because it has longer startup, they can't be charged and you put yourself in a bad position.

Pit's ftilt is better but it's not reliable killing tool by any means because you need the sweetspot and fthrow is usually a better option at the ledge anyway.

So there you have it, they are literally equal. I really don't understand how some people place the Pits, say 2 places away from each other.

 

[Blobface]

Ganon really doesn't mind people playing "lame" against him, he can deal with that just fine. What he really hates are really strong disadvantage states that allow people to live way longer than Ganon would like them to.

 

[Baby_Sneak]

Ganon really doesn't mind people playing "lame" against him, he can deal with that just fine. What he really hates are really strong disadvantage states that allow people to live way longer than Ganon would like them to.

What do you do against needles? Pellets? Slingshots? Swords? Diddy's Fair and Dtilt? Sonic? Rosalina?

Ganon doesn't have the tools to deal with all this.