Official 4BR Tier List v1.0 - Competitive Impressions

[Kofu]

Not to take away from Venia's victory here but how often to Mr. E and Pink Fresh get to play a good Greninja? The frog can be disorienting if you aren't used to fighting him and aren't familiar with his tools.

That said, I could see Greninja having the advantage on Marth thanks to mobility and his low profile, and Water Shuriken probably makes Bayonetta's life difficult and forces her to go into the air to hit him (where Greninja arguably wants you, so

 

[Sleek Media]

When you fight a Mac that knows what he's doing, that's when it gets scary.

People don't "run into" his Smashes. They go in with an attack, and either eat an armored Smash or an unclankable Ftilt 1.

The biggest thing I took from this list is that despite all the hype Megaman got in recent weeks, he's still displaying ho-hum results. ffs, Robin's outranking him right now. What's up?

I honestly think that's just a result of him just being a "meh" character. I love him to death, but there's just so much working against him that most other characters don't even have to consider. I don't think he's ever going to break the Mid-Tier ceiling, as much as we all want him to.

I'm not going to make a laundry list of his issues, but MM consistently fails to make top ranks in events. I believe it's ultimately a result of him not having enough consistent DPS and KO set-ups, and is over-reliant on gimp tactics and Rush jank to succeed.

I don't think he's a bad character. There are just so many other characters that are simply better than him. That's why he sits squarely in the middle and is constantly on the C-List of every major ranking discussion.

That's just reality settling in. I thought people would have learned not to have knee-jerk reactions to character after Pound, yet people actually been suggesting Mega Man is a top 10 character based solely on Kamemushi's performance, which is ridiculous (Scatt has been around for a while and had nobody convinced Mega is top 10).

There was a chart a while back which showed the top 10 (including Mega) characters in a matrix with all their matchups against one another. Cloud of course came out on top, but Mega Man was near the bottom in his pos/neg matchup spreads, and his negatives are against extremely common characters like Shiek and Mario, while his positives are against less common characters like Ryu. The popularity/performance data on the previous page also puts the lie to any notion of Mega Man being a top 10 character.

There's a ton of misinformation being spread about Mega Man on this forum. Look, I'm one of the diehards who picked him up day one and decided he would be my main no matter what. I want Mega Man to be good. People who don't even play as Mega Man want him to be good because he's iconic, and frankly playing him is a break from the "overwhelm you with safety/frame data/kill confirms" model of the real top tiers. There's a lot of bias in his favor, but the reality is that he is a barely functional character. Half of his moves are either worthless or unreliable. Look at his kit:

dash attack - doesn't connect properly at the beginning, slow, can't KO, easy to punish
dTilt - slow, no combo, easily punished, used only when there is no other punish option (Cloud's is better in every way - WHY???)
fAir - gets punished ON HIT, does not KO, mediocre damage, sour spot that does not combo
dAir - slow, easily canceled by most hitboxes including recovery hitboxes, which defeats the whole point of the move
fSmash - slow, easily punished on reaction, mediocre damage, not enough distance/shield stun to space safely
dSmash - it's so bad you might not even know what it looks like
uSmash - one of the weakest uSmashes in the game, does not always chain, can't be used to poke on battlefield
Crash Bomb - you can shield in the middle of the explosion up to 40%. Difficult to work with because of friendly fire

Even Mega Man's best moves have technical problems:
bAir - does not always chain properly
uAir - chaining issues with the final windbox

To me, he actually feels unfinished. When you play as him, you're working around all these technical problems that shouldn't be there in addition to dealing with his intended weaknesses (getting KO's, being combo food). All projectiles except fSmash and uAir can be beaten with a hitbox, so it's hard to really hold an opponent back. I hate to admit it, but many wins come from a lack of matchup knowledge on your opponent's part. Can't tell you how many times I've been told "I've never fought a good Mega Man before."

That said, Metal Blades are just SO GOOD in spite of their low priority that combined with bAir, uAir, and nAir, Mega Man can actually hold together a good neutral against most of the cast. I just don't see how anyone can reasonably think that a character with all these technical problems and strong disadvantages against two of the most common top tier characters can be considered top 10. I've always had him smack in the middle of the cast, and the numbers seem to add up.

 

[FullMoon]

Not to take away from Venia's victory here but how often to Mr. E and Pink Fresh get to play a good Greninja? The frog can be disorienting if you aren't used to fighting him and aren't familiar with his tools.

That said, I could see Greninja having the advantage on Marth thanks to mobility and his low profile, and Water Shuriken probably makes Bayonetta's life difficult and forces her to go into the air to hit him (where Greninja arguably wants you, so

To be fair, it's not like good Marths are very common either lol

Dunno about Pink Fresh, but Techei goes to Xanadu as well so maybe Pink Fresh has played him before. Techei is good but doesn't compare to Venia, but it's still MU experience.

Venia has the potential to be a better Greninja than iStudying to be honest, he just needs to go to majors.

 

[Y2Kay]

Mr E and Venia are friends. They traveled together to Xanadu. Mr. E knew what he was getting in to.


Pink fresh bodied Venia in WF, but Venia turned up the intensity and 4-0'd him right back.

As for Venia . . .

he's legit. I think he maybe the US greninja main the community desperately needs. He retired from smash for 3 months, and as soon as he comes back he wins Nebulous #42, beating John Numbers. He has NEVER gotten higher than 4th and he has NEVER has beaten Numbers. But he comes back from retirement and beats him handily.

I've never seen him play this well. His movement, his spacing, his combos . . . . go watch old footage of him. He's never been that good before.


I know you guys make fun of me for overrating my character or whatever, but . . . . you guys need to have an eye out for Venia. He's got a lot of skill and a lot of hunger. When Venia's fighting to win, he can be very dangerous.

He will be going to the last KTAR, Smash Con, and maaaybe APEX. We will see soon enough.

 

[Nu~]

*Mega Mega Man debate incoming*
This is gonna be a fun exchange of ideas

To begin:
Sleek Media i remember you saying that lemons are awful projectiles. Can you explain this again?
I understand that they have low priority, but in combination with mega man's mobility, they seem like really great tools for forcing the opponent to make mistakes when they try to get in.

 

[bc1910]

Das Koopa Do you include Xanadu in your rankings? Can't remember if it's big enough.

Anyway, for Venia to turn up to one Xanadu and win is pretty great. I'm still adamant Greninja beats Bayonetta, don't know about Marth (even or slight advantage). In any case this is great to see. FYI Y2Kay told me that Venia recently won his first Nebulous too, beating John#s.

I am confident that this character has top 15 potential and I hope this can be showcased more.

 

[FullMoon]

I'm skeptical of Top 15 myself really, I think there's just too much competition.

Don't think Bayonetta loses to Greninja now either though. I've played against Aerolink recently and although it was online which means lag, I still could get a good idea of how things go. We both agreed it was probably even

Both character can do a lot of damage to each other and are very mix-up oriented. But Bayo has a better disadvantaged state, her combos are more consistent than Greninja's and Witch Time makes things really volatile. On the other hand Greninja can mess up some of her stuff with Shadow Sneak (Venia even got a kill identical in nature to that one iStudy did on Tyroy), Water Shuriken can help Greninja have a better control in neutral and his good grab game and killing Up-Throw means he can consistently close off stocks while Bayo usually has to fish for an B-Air or try to get a D-Tilt -> Up-Air or something of that kind.

Up-Throw really came through for Venia in a lot of the games, both against Pink Fresh and also against Mr. E

 

[Jimbo_G]

That's just reality settling in. I thought people would have learned not to have knee-jerk reactions to character after Pound, yet people actually been suggesting Mega Man is a top 10 character based solely on Kamemushi's performance, which is ridiculous (Scatt has been around for a while and had nobody convinced Mega is top 10).

There was a chart a while back which showed the top 10 (including Mega) characters in a matrix with all their matchups against one another. Cloud of course came out on top, but Mega Man was near the bottom in his pos/neg matchup spreads, and his negatives are against extremely common characters like Shiek and Mario, while his positives are against less common characters like Ryu. The popularity/performance data on the previous page also puts the lie to any notion of Mega Man being a top 10 character.

There's a ton of misinformation being spread about Mega Man on this forum. Look, I'm one of the diehards who picked him up day one and decided he would be my main no matter what. I want Mega Man to be good. People who don't even play as Mega Man want him to be good because he's iconic, and frankly playing him is a break from the "overwhelm you with safety/frame data/kill confirms" model of the real top tiers. There's a lot of bias in his favor, but the reality is that he is a barely functional character. Half of his moves are either worthless or unreliable. Look at his kit:

dash attack - doesn't connect properly at the beginning, slow, can't KO, easy to punish
dTilt - slow, no combo, easily punished, used only when there is no other punish option (Cloud's is better in every way - WHY???)
fAir - gets punished ON HIT, does not KO, mediocre damage, sour spot that does not combo
dAir - slow, easily canceled by most hitboxes including recovery hitboxes, which defeats the whole point of the move
fSmash - slow, easily punished on reaction, mediocre damage, not enough distance/shield stun to space safely
dSmash - it's so bad you might not even know what it looks like
uSmash - one of the weakest uSmashes in the game, does not always chain, can't be used to poke on battlefield
Crash Bomb - you can shield in the middle of the explosion up to 40%. Difficult to work with because of friendly fire

Even Mega Man's best moves have technical problems:
bAir - does not always chain properly
uAir - chaining issues with the final windbox

To me, he actually feels unfinished. When you play as him, you're working around all these technical problems that shouldn't be there in addition to dealing with his intended weaknesses (getting KO's, being combo food). All projectiles except fSmash and uAir can be beaten with a hitbox, so it's hard to really hold an opponent back. I hate to admit it, but many wins come from a lack of matchup knowledge on your opponent's part. Can't tell you how many times I've been told "I've never fought a good Mega Man before."

That said, Metal Blades are just SO GOOD in spite of their low priority that combined with bAir, uAir, and nAir, Mega Man can actually hold together a good neutral against most of the cast. I just don't see how anyone can reasonably think that a character with all these technical problems and strong disadvantages against two of the most common top tier characters can be considered top 10. I've always had him smack in the middle of the cast, and the numbers seem to add up.

I didn't want to make a laundry list, but you went and did it for me anyways, lol. This is exactly what I mean, but you put it far more eloquently. I LOVE Megaman. I've wanted him to be in Smash since Smash has existed. I mained him from the start, and still do despite the frustration. But truer words have never been spoken about Megaman: he's just not very good.

 

[bc1910]

I'm skeptical of Top 15 myself really, I think there's just too much competition.

Don't think Bayonetta loses to Greninja now either though. I've played against Aerolink recently and although it was online which means lag, I still could get a good idea of how things go. We both agreed it was probably even

Both character can do a lot of damage to each other and are very mix-up oriented. But Bayo has a better disadvantaged state, her combos are more consistent than Greninja's and Witch Time makes things really volatile. On the other hand Greninja can mess up some of her stuff with Shadow Sneak (Venia even got a kill identical in nature to that one iStudy did on Tyroy), Water Shuriken can help Greninja have a better control in neutral and his good grab game and killing Up-Throw means he can consistently close off stocks while Bayo usually has to fish for an B-Air or try to get a D-Tilt -> Up-Air or something of that kind.

Up-Throw really came through for Venia in a lot of the games, both against Pink Fresh and also against Mr. E

I honestly think you lack vision for the character.

Were I being unrealistic I would have said top 10 or just top tier, but for top 15 I really don't see a huge amount of competition. He's significantly better than most of the characters he usually gets lumped with and about as good as Pika overall I'd say. At the end of the day it's just an arbitrary number, but however you want to define it, his strength level is around there.

Bayo's combos aren't really consistent thanks to SDI (generally SDI up). Shadow Sneak complicates things even further. Neither character has easy consistent setups (which incidentally is part of what keeps them both out of top tier for me). Greninja just has an easier time forcing reactions in neutral, with probably higher reward on average and an easier time killing. Though Witch Time makes any attempt at an early Usmash kill pretty risky. Unless she WTs the first hit and gets smacked with the second which is rare.

 

[FullMoon]

I think Greninja is a solid character that will probably struggle to win a tournament by himself but it's definitely not an impossible feat. Whether that translated into top 15, top 20 or whatever, I don't really care. I just keep playing him regardless.

There are a lot of good characters in this game and Greninja is one of them, but just how good he is compared to the other good characters, that's something that remains to be seen. However, as far as the current meta goes Greninja still has a lot to do in terms of proving himself.

Maybe he could grow to become that good of a character in the future but as of right now I don't think he has done enough to justify being placed that high up other than having very good theory behind him.

 

[Appledees]

I hate to admit it, but many wins come from a lack of matchup knowledge on your opponent's part. Can't tell you how many times I've been told "I've never fought a good Mega Man before."

I'm so sick of hearing this not in regards to megaman but in general for alot of characters in this game. Using matchup inexperience is such a cheap way to say this character isn't that good.

Kamemushi along with other Megaman mains such as Nga and Daiki have been playing Megaman there for quite a while and has preformed really well there in Japan for a while (though the last two dropped off a bit iirc). Japan rates Megaman really highly. Doubtful that their wrong considering we've seen these megaman players especially Kamemushi do really well even against his bad MUs like Sheik that and Kamemushi has been really consistent with the character recently even before certain patches and with the shiek nerf he's doing better. I don't believe its straight up matchup inexperience and really I think Megaman has the tools to actually compete at a high level of play. I don't see him as high tier but he's definitely not winning cause of "matchup inexperience" that you always spread everywhere.

Again this doesn't spread to just Megaman , Duck Hunt was seen as garbage or not good at all outside of Japan but then we see a Duck Hunt place really far recently in the us. Maybe certain characters actually have more potential than they're actually seen as and its flatout annoying when its seen as "well its just they didn't know the matchup well enough" that can only mean so much in the long run really.

 

[ItsRainingGravy]

Greninja is like a ninja/assassin when it comes to viability. He lurks in the shadows, hidden from sight for a good while. And then all of a sudden, you get ambushed by a REALLY REALLY good one out of nowhere. You've never seen one before, so you don't know what to expect. And before you know it, he uses your tears to fuel his shurikens, and sends you to a watery grave, before Shadow Sneaking back out of sight. He then becomes a myth, and people begin to wonder if such a powerful Greninja ever existed. Even so, the legend he carries is passed down through generations of competitive viability topics.

He isn't the dominant force that the skyscraper-slicing Cloud, The World Warrior Ryu, or the Jungle Hijinx Diddy are. But that's not his goal or his mission. The frog hides in his pond, waiting to strike at any foolish grasshopper that dares to treck upon his territory. And when that happens, the Protean Pouncer will footstool you and Dair you into the ground so hard that it could even make a plumber green with envy.

Alas, even the fearless frog has his own nemesis. Sheik, the Superior Shinobi. Not only does she know of his ninja ways, but she is also a veteran in the arts. The flawless frame data bestowed to her so powerful, it almost seems like magic or sorcery. Her deceptive ways of trapping, juking, and fooling opponents...almost as if she has done this sort of thing for years. The way she moves, flows, and fights in battle is an unnatural spectacle. It comes natural to her, almost as if she is a fish that is swimming in water. The Frog may know his way well around the pond, but he is no match for ocean that the fish swims in. And while the toad gladly feasts on the bugs that invade upon his lilypads, he is just another meal for the hungry bass. She giggs him with her nefarious needles, and then dines on French Cuisine.


And that, my friends, is the Mysterious and Grievous Tale of Greninja.

 

[Nu~]

Greninja is like a ninja/assassin when it comes to viability. He lurks in the shadows, hidden from sight for a good while. And then all of a sudden, you get ambushed by a REALLY REALLY good one out of nowhere. You've never seen one before, so you don't know what to expect. And before you know it, he uses your tears to fuel his shurikens, and sends you to a watery grave, before Shadow Sneaking back out of sight. He then becomes a myth, and people begin to wonder if such a powerful Greninja ever existed. Even so, the legend he carries is passed down through generations of competitive viability topics.

He isn't the dominant force that the skyscraper-slicing Cloud, The World Warrior Ryu, or the Jungle Hijinx Diddy are. But that's not his goal or his mission. The frog hides in his pond, waiting to strike at any foolish grasshopper that dares to treck upon his territory. And when that happens, the Protean Pouncer will footstool you and Dair you into the ground so hard that it could even make a plumber green with envy.

Alas, even the fearless frog has his own nemesis. Sheik, the Superior Shinobi. Not only does she know of his ninja ways, but she is also a veteran in the arts. The flawless frame data bestowed to her so powerful, it almost seems like magic or sorcery. Her deceptive ways of trapping, juking, and fooling opponents...almost as if she has done this sort of thing for years. The way she moves, flows, and fights in battle is an unnatural spectacle. It comes natural to her, almost as if she is a fish that is swimming in water. The Frog may know his way well around the pond, but he is no match for ocean that the fish swims in. And while the toad gladly feasts on the bugs that invade upon his lilypads, he is just another meal for the hungry bass. She giggs him with her nefarious needles, and then dines on French Cuisine.


And that, my friends, is the Mysterious and Grievous Tale of Greninja.

I don't think I've ever read a more beautiful analogy on smashboards before

 

[Sleek Media]

Appledees You're gonna have to give us something better than "Kamemushi wins recently". I already explained why that is a non-reason for elevating a mid tier and causing confusion, and I also gave many more reasons than "matchup experience". Step your game up. Try explaining why his numerous technical problems don't have a significant impact, or why a neutral consisting of four moves and a grab is enough to put him on the same level as powerhouses like Shiek and Cloud.

Nu~ I do think pellets are overrated, at least by the Mega mains who think "lol pellet zone" is a catch-all super neutral that beats almost everything in the game. They are a good harassment tool. Good, not great. There are quite a few characters with disjointed approaches like Marth, who really don't have that much less range than pellets, and there are many more like Mario, Shiek, and even Link, who can simply put hitboxes out which will beat them. Obviously, this is a bigger issue in some matchups than others, and it's no coincidence that all his worst matchups are characters who can rapidly put out hitboxes which break Mega Man's zoning and start combos. Pellets do 2% each, and you have about 30 frames of cool down once you stop firing, or fire three. It's not uncommon to line up an aerial opponent, have two pellets get beat by their attack, while the third pellet connects and does 2%, but now you are at a frame disadvantage and have to give up some stage control. If you play absolutely perfect, they truly are effecting at zoning, but we are humans and Mega Man is combo food. You have to land a ton of them just to keep even with punish damage, and it's harder than it sounds. In practice, they are more of a harassment tool - something you use to frustrate and condition opponents for bigger hits from grab, uAir, or bAir. One of the first things I noticed with Kamemushi is that he opts for a metal blade neutral over a pellet neutral, and the reason is that he has more options and better burst damage without the crippling lag. Some Mega Man players get too caught up in trying to zone for the sake of zoning and forfeit better punish options by keeping themselves in pellet lag. Honestly, they are a well balanced tool...very safe, low reward (imagine that, a safe move with low reward), but they do close out better options, and are easily punished if you use them incorrectly.

 

[Nobie]

I've seen people point out Mega Man's "many flaws" (Zucco made a video about Mega Man's worst attacks), but I think that it's less "this character is incomplete in design" and more that Mega Man was designed with very specific limits in mind. Like, as much as it can annoy me, there's a very solid reason why Mega Man lacks autocancels on most of his aerials, and that's to make them almost all strictly air to air attacks if you want to be safe. Also Mega Man's aerial mobility makes things like fair much safer than they ought to be.

Not saying people aren't rating Mega Man a liiiittle too high as of late (top tier is suspicious), but I feel like Mega Man players are downplaying their own character a bit.

"Oh no, XYZ moves don't combo."

Why does everything gotta combo, you guys

 

[Thinkaman]

Personally, I think Smashville is his worst stage. There's almost no situation where Mac has good risk/reward for approaching someone standing on the platform, and he can't shark it with usmash without perfect spacing. Once the platform is offstage, Mac can't pressure it at all. The platform offers free resets for the opponent and lets them engage Mac on their terms. Alphicans will always ban this stage and for good reason (don't watch the whole game if you want to retain your sanity).

Dreamland is also non-negligibly worse for Mac than Battlefield, because the platforms are higher. Usmashing through the platforms is much more difficult, which makes the lower platforms more useful as a reset tool.

Personally, I'd say Mac's stages go something like:
Really bad
Smashville, Duck Hunt

Bad
Dreamland

OK
Battlefield, Lylat

Good
FD, T&C

Only the really bad stages present problems for him IMO.

This. This, this, this.

Smashville is awful for Mac. Nevermind that it is WAY easier to camp a moving platform than a static one (even one that is much higher), but Little Mac cannot full hop onto Smashville's platform!

This is also true for Dream Land's lower platforms, but not those in Battlefield/Miiverse nor Dream Land's upper one. Lylat is complex due to the tilting, and of course has no upper platform.


So compare your options for assaulting a platform camping::

Smashville:

• Crappy uair harassment during a predictable window
• All-in side-b or up-b during a predictable window
• Commit to a double jump approach during a predictable window

Dreamland lower platforms:

• Crappy uair harassment
  
• All-in side-b or up-b
  
• Precision U-smash harassment
• Commit to a double jump approach
  
• Go around from upper platform slowly

Battlefield lower platforms:

• Crappy uair harassment
  
• All-in side-b or up-b
  
• Non-Precision U-smash harassment
• Commit to a full hop approach
  
• Go around from upper platform quickly

Dreamland/Battlefield upper platform:

• All-in side-b or up-b
• Commit to a full hop approach

All Mac needs to work is a dangerous pair of specials to threaten the opponent, and the option to QUICKLY AS POSSIBLE invade the platform with minimal risk. As long as he has that valid mixup, he can deal with platform camping.

Duck Hunt < Smashville < Dreamland < Battlefield / Lylat < Every Other Stage That Has Ever Been Legal Anywhere In Smash 4

 

[Tizio Random]

Seriously I hope the balance team will buff Little Mac full hop to at least reach the lower platforms and double jump on the Duck Hunt tree. Same for Ganondorf. I don't have Manu hopes (I don't any that this will happen) but it will make them much better on these stages.

 

[adom4]

Seriously I hope the balance team will buff Little Mac full hop to at least reach the lower platforms and double jump on the Duck Hunt tree. Same for Ganondorf. I don't have Manu hopes (I don't any that this will happen) but it will make them much better on these stages.

To be honest duck hunt can be usually pretty ok for Dorf unless it's against really heavy camp.(Wario, Pacman, Bayo and Villager mostly).
I can't really explain why but i feel that Ganon generally likes the jankiness of the stage.

 

[AxelVDP]

Seriously I hope the balance team will buff Little Mac full hop to at least reach the lower platforms and double jump on the Duck Hunt tree. Same for Ganondorf. I don't have Manu hopes (I don't any that this will happen) but it will make them much better on these stages.

Mac can already reach the lower branches of DH tree with a double jump, but you have to use the ledge jump and not the regular jump (I believe this is also true for ganondorf, but I'm not quite sure)
granted, it's predictable and all that jazz, but the option is there

 

[Thinkaman]

Seriously I hope the balance team will buff Little Mac full hop to at least reach the lower platforms and double jump on the Duck Hunt tree. Same for Ganondorf. I don't have Manu hopes (I don't any that this will happen) but it will make them much better on these stages.

I think changing jump heights is maybe the least likely change imaginable.

Hell, I'd say them lowering the platform is more likely. (And I'd still put higher odds on winning the lottery; I don't even expect more patches)

To be honest duck hunt can be usually pretty ok for Dorf unless it's against really heavy camp.(Wario, Pacman, Bayo and Villager mostly).
I can't really explain why but i feel that Ganon generally likes the jankiness of the stage.

Ganon be all "Oh no, people camping platforms above me! If only I had a good uair..."

 

[adom4]

I think changing jump heights is maybe the least likely change imaginable.

Hell, I'd say them lowering the platform is more likely. (And I'd still put higher odds on winning the lottery; I don't even expect more patches)



Ganon be all "Oh no, people camping platforms above me! If only I had a good uair..."

Hell even dark dive is a decent option against tree camping because it's a grab lol.

 

[sups48]

That's just reality settling in. I thought people would have learned not to have knee-jerk reactions to character after Pound, yet people actually been suggesting Mega Man is a top 10 character based solely on Kamemushi's performance, which is ridiculous (Scatt has been around for a while and had nobody convinced Mega is top 10).

There was a chart a while back which showed the top 10 (including Mega) characters in a matrix with all their matchups against one another. Cloud of course came out on top, but Mega Man was near the bottom in his pos/neg matchup spreads, and his negatives are against extremely common characters like Shiek and Mario, while his positives are against less common characters like Ryu. The popularity/performance data on the previous page also puts the lie to any notion of Mega Man being a top 10 character.

There's a ton of misinformation being spread about Mega Man on this forum. Look, I'm one of the diehards who picked him up day one and decided he would be my main no matter what. I want Mega Man to be good. People who don't even play as Mega Man want him to be good because he's iconic, and frankly playing him is a break from the "overwhelm you with safety/frame data/kill confirms" model of the real top tiers. There's a lot of bias in his favor, but the reality is that he is a barely functional character. Half of his moves are either worthless or unreliable. Look at his kit:

dash attack - doesn't connect properly at the beginning, slow, can't KO, easy to punish
dTilt - slow, no combo, easily punished, used only when there is no other punish option (Cloud's is better in every way - WHY???)
fAir - gets punished ON HIT, does not KO, mediocre damage, sour spot that does not combo
dAir - slow, easily canceled by most hitboxes including recovery hitboxes, which defeats the whole point of the move
fSmash - slow, easily punished on reaction, mediocre damage, not enough distance/shield stun to space safely
dSmash - it's so bad you might not even know what it looks like
uSmash - one of the weakest uSmashes in the game, does not always chain, can't be used to poke on battlefield
Crash Bomb - you can shield in the middle of the explosion up to 40%. Difficult to work with because of friendly fire

Even Mega Man's best moves have technical problems:
bAir - does not always chain properly
uAir - chaining issues with the final windbox

To me, he actually feels unfinished. When you play as him, you're working around all these technical problems that shouldn't be there in addition to dealing with his intended weaknesses (getting KO's, being combo food). All projectiles except fSmash and uAir can be beaten with a hitbox, so it's hard to really hold an opponent back. I hate to admit it, but many wins come from a lack of matchup knowledge on your opponent's part. Can't tell you how many times I've been told "I've never fought a good Mega Man before."

That said, Metal Blades are just SO GOOD in spite of their low priority that combined with bAir, uAir, and nAir, Mega Man can actually hold together a good neutral against most of the cast. I just don't see how anyone can reasonably think that a character with all these technical problems and strong disadvantages against two of the most common top tier characters can be considered top 10. I've always had him smack in the middle of the cast, and the numbers seem to add up.

Fair is good can combo into each other is pretty safe and is hugely disjointed. Also up smash does go though platforms and comes out fast enough. You cant just list his moves and all its negatives some that are even wrong and say oh this character is **** and broken.

 

[hypersonicJD]

Greninja is like a ninja/assassin when it comes to viability. He lurks in the shadows, hidden from sight for a good while. And then all of a sudden, you get ambushed by a REALLY REALLY good one out of nowhere. You've never seen one before, so you don't know what to expect. And before you know it, he uses your tears to fuel his shurikens, and sends you to a watery grave, before Shadow Sneaking back out of sight. He then becomes a myth, and people begin to wonder if such a powerful Greninja ever existed. Even so, the legend he carries is passed down through generations of competitive viability topics.

He isn't the dominant force that the skyscraper-slicing Cloud, The World Warrior Ryu, or the Jungle Hijinx Diddy are. But that's not his goal or his mission. The frog hides in his pond, waiting to strike at any foolish grasshopper that dares to treck upon his territory. And when that happens, the Protean Pouncer will footstool you and Dair you into the ground so hard that it could even make a plumber green with envy.

Alas, even the fearless frog has his own nemesis. Sheik, the Superior Shinobi. Not only does she know of his ninja ways, but she is also a veteran in the arts. The flawless frame data bestowed to her so powerful, it almost seems like magic or sorcery. Her deceptive ways of trapping, juking, and fooling opponents...almost as if she has done this sort of thing for years. The way she moves, flows, and fights in battle is an unnatural spectacle. It comes natural to her, almost as if she is a fish that is swimming in water. The Frog may know his way well around the pond, but he is no match for ocean that the fish swims in. And while the toad gladly feasts on the bugs that invade upon his lilypads, he is just another meal for the hungry bass. She giggs him with her nefarious needles, and then dines on French Cuisine.


And that, my friends, is the Mysterious and Grievous Tale of Greninja.

10/10 would read it again. Amazing Greninja history.

To think that I actually used to main Greninja

 

[Loota]

In regards to Sleek Media's quote above, one thing that really triggers me is that many people assume all multihits are meant to link 100% of the time in all situations and call any move failing to do so unfinished or badly designed. It's always been a natural property of those moves that they require proper spacing to hit all the way through, not vacuum the opponent in for a short cinematic of him getting hit (which it admittedly feels like sometimes since SDI is so weak in this game).

 

[Shady Shaymin]

has a lot in common with. Note, when I say this, I am not implying that megaman mains are all frauds playing a mediocre character and overrating the life out of him. What I am saying is that megaman's rise recently is very similar to what pika had.

People slept on andfor some time due to poor rep and seemingly underwhelming theory. At some point, though, the characters began seeing more results (and yes, I know megaman's results are more impressive than Esam doing well at a handful of majors). People looked at the characters and realized they had more tools than initially perceived. All of a sudden, has amazing mobility and combo potential, zones like a monster, and the strengths of these characters come to light, while neither character has been touched. People even begin to realize that the characters have good matchups against the top tiers! supposedly does well against , supposedly does well against . Both earn status as solid anti-meta characters and are said to be worthy of top 10 or 15.

Now before you hard-working lab rats come at me for comparing your beloved main to this thread's most hated and polarizing "high tier," I'm not finished. The difference betweenand is that by now, people have figured out all of's tricks and his weaknesses have become increasingly problematic, and his status as a high tier has become increasingly questionable. It's entirely possible that will follow the same route and fade into mid tier obscurity once people adapt and exploit his flaws more, but it's also possible that his strengths are enough to keep him up in the high tier that people are placing him in during this honeymoon phase. The outcome is entirely up to you dedicated MM mains and your performance over this summer.

 

[Nu~]

Fair is good can combo into each other is pretty safe and is hugely disjointed. Also up smash does go though platforms and comes out fast enough. You cant just list his moves and all its negatives some that are even wrong and say oh this character is **** and broken.

Well, parts of usmash go through platforms. It's weird.
And at what percent range does Fair combo into itself? I can never get it to work in training or against an opponent that DI's away or jumps.

I like Fair because it's freaking huge and can set up jab locks at lower percentages. Never did I see it as a combo tool however.

 

[Baby_Sneak]

In regards to Sleek Media's quote above, one thing that really triggers me is that many people assume all multihits are meant to link 100% of the time in all situations and call any move failing to do so unfinished or badly designed. It's always been a natural property of those moves that they require proper spacing to hit all the way through, not vacuum the opponent in for a short cinematic of him getting hit (which it admittedly feels like sometimes since SDI is so weak in this game).

Like DHD's smash attacks? Or bowser Jr's jab? Or D3's Jab?

Multi hitting moves NEED to be consistent or they're gonna be garbage (most of the time).

 

[Das Koopa]

Das Koopa Do you include Xanadu in your rankings? Can't remember if it's big enough.

Anyway, for Venia to turn up to one Xanadu and win is pretty great. I'm still adamant Greninja beats Bayonetta, don't know about Marth (even or slight advantage). In any case this is great to see. FYI Y2Kay told me that Venia recently won his first Nebulous too, beating John#s.

I am confident that this character has top 15 potential and I hope this can be showcased more.

i don't include S@X because it's a weekly, but I'm considering making an exception to include 1-2 per data list because S@X is sometimes "big" enough to be a regional

It's kind of in a unique situation where it's the only region that runs entirely on weeklies afaik. Including one wouldn't be inflating anything because the region doesn't have other "big" tournies, unlike Texas or SoCal where I omit Shockwave and Monday Night Smash specifically because both areas frequently host big tournies.

 

[Ninety]

has a lot in common with. Note, when I say this, I am not implying that megaman mains are all frauds playing a mediocre character and overrating the life out of him.

...but you're kinda implying Pika mains are

 

[Shady Shaymin]

...but you're kinda implying Pika mains are

Not necessarily, that's just the stereotype/negative rep pika mains have in this thread. It's very exaggerated, but that's not what I meant to attribute to all pika mains.

 

[Jams.]

I'm so sick of hearing this not in regards to megaman but in general for alot of characters in this game. Using matchup inexperience is such a cheap way to say this character isn't that good.

Kamemushi along with other Megaman mains such as Nga and Daiki have been playing Megaman there for quite a while and has preformed really well there in Japan for a while (though the last two dropped off a bit iirc). Japan rates Megaman really highly. Doubtful that their wrong considering we've seen these megaman players especially Kamemushi do really well even against his bad MUs like Sheik that and Kamemushi has been really consistent with the character recently even before certain patches and with the shiek nerf he's doing better. I don't believe its straight up matchup inexperience and really I think Megaman has the tools to actually compete at a high level of play. I don't see him as high tier but he's definitely not winning cause of "matchup inexperience" that you always spread everywhere.

Again this doesn't spread to just Megaman , Duck Hunt was seen as garbage or not good at all outside of Japan but then we see a Duck Hunt place really far recently in the us. Maybe certain characters actually have more potential than they're actually seen as and its flatout annoying when its seen as "well its just they didn't know the matchup well enough" that can only mean so much in the long run really.

While "lack of MU knowledge" can certainly be used as a cop out response when a perceived weaker character upsets a stronger one, it can also be a legitimate argument. It's possible to verify how much MU experience was a factor simply by watching the set where the upset happens, then analyzing how the opponent played the MU and what mistakes they made. It can be easy to identify common pitfalls that demonstrate a player does not understand a certain MU, even if that player is a top player. For instance, with ROB, some of these pitfalls would be poor DI on beep boop, not mixing up both DI and airdodge/no airdodge on dthrow, falling for reverse gyro -> usmash consistently on the ledge, failing to powershield at least 75% of gyros in neutral, and not respecting nair properly. If I see lots of these things occurring throughout the set, I'm going to write it off as a poor representation of the MU regardless of the skill level of the players.

Not saying this applies specifically to Mega Man or Duck Hunt, just pointing out that "lack of matchup knowledge" can be a strong argument if there is sufficient evidence.

It's always been a natural property of those moves that they require proper spacing to hit all the way through, not vacuum the opponent in for a short cinematic of him getting hit.

I'm sure glad this description doesn't apply to any move in this game! :^)

 

[sups48]

Well, parts of usmash go through platforms. It's weird.
And at what percent range does Fair combo into itself? I can never get it to work in training or against an opponent that DI's away or jumps.

I like Fair because it's freaking huge and can set up jab locks at lower percentages. Never did I see it as a combo tool however.

I've done it randomly but im probably just think about a fair string I got then an actual true combo.

 

[Ulevo]

This. This, this, this.

Smashville is awful for Mac. Nevermind that it is WAY easier to camp a moving platform than a static one (even one that is much higher), but Little Mac cannot full hop onto Smashville's platform!

This is also true for Dream Land's lower platforms, but not those in Battlefield/Miiverse nor Dream Land's upper one. Lylat is complex due to the tilting, and of course has no upper platform.


So compare your options for assaulting a platform camping::

Smashville:

• Crappy uair harassment during a predictable window
• All-in side-b or up-b during a predictable window
• Commit to a double jump approach during a predictable window

Dreamland lower platforms:

• Crappy uair harassment
  
• All-in side-b or up-b
  
• Precision U-smash harassment
• Commit to a double jump approach
  
• Go around from upper platform slowly

Battlefield lower platforms:

• Crappy uair harassment
  
• All-in side-b or up-b
  
• Non-Precision U-smash harassment
• Commit to a full hop approach
  
• Go around from upper platform quickly

Dreamland/Battlefield upper platform:

• All-in side-b or up-b
• Commit to a full hop approach

All Mac needs to work is a dangerous pair of specials to threaten the opponent, and the option to QUICKLY AS POSSIBLE invade the platform with minimal risk. As long as he has that valid mixup, he can deal with platform camping.

Duck Hunt < Smashville < Dreamland < Battlefield / Lylat < Every Other Stage That Has Ever Been Legal Anywhere In Smash 4

There is also the fact that Smashville is the smallest stage, width wise, which increases the odds that Little Mac will be put off stage into an edge guard situation.

 

[Radical Larry]

Like DHD's smash attacks? Or bowser Jr's jab? Or D3's Jab?

Multi hitting moves NEED to be consistent or they're gonna be garbage (most of the time).

Actually, Dedede's Jab is consistent, it's just that people usually hit with the end of the attack and thus opponents can SDI out of it before the D3 player can hit them out of it. Irregardless, it's still functional at close range.

There is also the fact that Smashville is the smallest stage, width wise, which increases the odds that Little Mac will be put off stage into an edge guard situation.

It's either that or we have the moving platform go so close to the blast zone that you can get a guaranteed KO by either side blast zones or Little Mac's poor recovery. That's quite unfair.

 

[HeavyLobster]

To be honest duck hunt can be usually pretty ok for Dorf unless it's against really heavy camp.(Wario, Pacman, Bayo and Villager mostly).
I can't really explain why but i feel that Ganon generally likes the jankiness of the stage.

Buffing Dark Dive to the point where it can reliably kill would honestly fix most of Dorf's issues there.

 

[Radical Larry]

Buffing Dark Dive to the point where it can reliably kill would honestly fix most of Dorf's issues there.

Dark Fists says "Hi".

 

[LancerStaff]

In regards to Sleek Media's quote above, one thing that really triggers me is that many people assume all multihits are meant to link 100% of the time in all situations and call any move failing to do so unfinished or badly designed. It's always been a natural property of those moves that they require proper spacing to hit all the way through, not vacuum the opponent in for a short cinematic of him getting hit (which it admittedly feels like sometimes since SDI is so weak in this game).

Still glad Pit's multihits are generally super consistent and that when they fail, the opponent's usually either at a significant frame disadvantage or getting flung across the stage at a funny angle.

Actually there's quite few things you can abuse when the move "fails," like the Fair spike or the Nair > Usmash combo.

 

[teddystalin]

has a lot in common with. Note, when I say this, I am not implying that megaman mains are all frauds playing a mediocre character and overrating the life out of him. What I am saying is that megaman's rise recently is very similar to what pika had.

People slept on andfor some time due to poor rep and seemingly underwhelming theory. At some point, though, the characters began seeing more results (and yes, I know megaman's results are more impressive than Esam doing well at a handful of majors). People looked at the characters and realized they had more tools than initially perceived. All of a sudden, has amazing mobility and combo potential, zones like a monster, and the strengths of these characters come to light, while neither character has been touched. People even begin to realize that the characters have good matchups against the top tiers! supposedly does well against , supposedly does well against . Both earn status as solid anti-meta characters and are said to be worthy of top 10 or 15.

Now before you hard-working lab rats come at me for comparing your beloved main to this thread's most hated and polarizing "high tier," I'm not finished. The difference betweenand is that by now, people have figured out all of's tricks and his weaknesses have become increasingly problematic, and his status as a high tier has become increasingly questionable. It's entirely possible that will follow the same route and fade into mid tier obscurity once people adapt and exploit his flaws more, but it's also possible that his strengths are enough to keep him up in the high tier that people are placing him in during this honeymoon phase. The outcome is entirely up to you dedicated MM mains and your performance over this summer.

I think this post really hits on why it's proven so difficult to settle on a consistent high/upper mid-tier (that zone between around 11th and 25th, whatever you want to call it.) To be an upper-mid/high tier in Melee (), a character basically has to not lose too hard to most of the top tiers. Maybe they'll manage an even MU, maybe a -1, but only very rarely do they clearly win against one of the top 5.

In Smash 4, a lot of characters manage to meet those criteria (plus maybe a couple of small advantages) against the top 10 or so: , etc. But we also have another class of characters who have advantages against a number of top tiers while still clearly losing, often badly, to others: (arguably). These guys are far more likely to have a day in the limelight, but are also far more vulnerable to meta shifts bringing their counters to the fore or making their advantageous MUs less common. It makes tiering difficult: in a sense, the first group are better because they don't have an easy counter, but a good player of a character from the second group can just pick up a secondary and be on their merry way. It's further complicated by the fact that most of these character only have one or two really great players pushing their metas and their absence can lead to a lot of new flavors of the month.

 

[Nintenpro]

In the last french tournament, Scarhi (best shulk fr) beat Glutonny (top3 FR). The set was Shulk vs Wario, a pretty uncommon MU lol
Here the video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pr-SCKHCulQ

 

[TDK]

Alright, I was inspired by Thinkaman and Das Koopa 's compilation of results, so I think I'll try an expirement.

Spoiler: Expirement Phase 1, Results

This here is the tier list brought to you by Thinkaman 's infographic and Das Koopa 's results compilation, all credit to them. I just made it pretty. now if we look at this and compare it to Theory, (See phase 2) we get some interesting conclusions:

- , in theory, shouldn't be in the top 10, simply because he is an anti-meta character for an outdated meta. One of the biggest factors attributing him to a lower position on the theory list is because of the rise of characters that can beat him and the slight fall of some of the characters he was best equipped to deal with. This is, however, in stark contrast to the results list.

- is in the opposite position. While Theory has him in the top 5, the results don't even have him in the top 10. Is Ryu just that hard to play consistently? is in a similar, yet more drastic position.

- , , and all have higher results than their theory would lead you to believe, though not by much, as they are still high-mid tier characters.

- and both have lower results than they theoretically should, though I'm inclined to believe it's a lack of playerbase rather than lack of results.

- , despite losing to most of the cast in theory, has surprisingly good results, especially now that the character isn't as popular as he once was, and people don't have to worry about as much counterplay.

- and both have high results for percieved "low-mid" tier characters, with both of them surpassing a majority of the cast.

- seems to be moving in the direction of a matchup-specific counterpick character than a solo-viable character in his own right.

- and have fallen off a cliff due to their best players either evaporating into thin air or dropping the characters, thus lowering their results considerably, with PAC-MAN even being in the bottom 10.

- and have high results for their lower popularity, with Duck Hunt even being tied for the least popular non-mii character in the game.

- 's popularity is surprisingly high at tournaments [higher than Mewtwo], but he has the worst popularity-results ratio.

- and have bottom-tier theory, but the results are much higher than one would expect from these characters.

- seems to be moving in a similar direction as Corrin, a low-tier counterpick character.

- , as I predicted, has done nothing and is in the bottom 2 in terms of results.

- and are much higher than the popularity-results chart would indicate, as Dr. Mario and Lucina have to be adjusted for because there are superior options for them, and Wii Fit Trainers does have results, but not in the sample size taken.

Spoiler: Phase 2, Theory

DISCLAIMER: The following tier list was not posted to be criticized and should not be taken as the truth. I have only placed my tier list here to provide a baseline for Phase 3 and to show the discrepencies between theory and results. If there was an up-to-date official one, I would use that.

Spoiler: Phase 3, Calculations

Now for the "fun" part. I'm going to take every character's placement in both tier lists and put it into a formula like this:

(Character) = (Placing on Results list) + (Placing on Theory List) / 2 rounded to the nearest whole number. Decimals will be consulted to break ties.

Here's all the numbers:
= 1 + 1 / 2 = 1
= 2 + 2 / 2 = 2
= 3 + 7 = 10 / 2 = 5
= 4 + 5 = 9 / 2 = 4.5 or 5
= 5 + 5 = 10 / 2 = 5
= 6 + 3 = 9 / 2 = 4.5 or 5
= 7 + 8 = 15 / 2 = 7.5 or 8
= 8 + 10 = 18 / 2 = 9
= 9 + 18 = 27 / 2 = 13.5 or 14
= 10 + 15 = 25 / 2 = 12.5 or 13
= 11 + 4 = 15 / 2 = 7.5 or 8
= 12 + 14 = 26 / 2 = 13
= 13 + 12 = 25 / 2 = 12.5 or 13
= 14 + 23 = 37 / 2 = 18. 5 or 19
= 15 + 22 = 37 / 2 = 18.5 or 19
= 16 + 19 = 35 / 2 = 17.5 or 18
= 17 + 11 = 28 / 2 = 14
= 18 + 13 = 31 / 2 = 15.5 or 16
= 19 + 42 = 61 / 2 = 30.5 or 31
= 20 + 26 = 46 / 2 = 23
= 21 + 25 = 46 / 2 = 23
= 22 + 20 = 42 / 2 = 21
= 23 + 24 = 47 / 2 = 23.5 or 24
= 24 + 40 = 64 / 2 = 32
= 25 + 27 = 52 / 2 = 26
= 26 + 31 = 57 / 2 = 28.5 or 29
= 27 + 9 = 36 / 2 = 18
= 28 + 17 = 45 / 2 = 22.5 or 23
( / ) = 29 + 28 = 57 / 2 = 28.5 or 29
= 30 + 29 = 59 / 2 = 29.5 or 30
= 31 + 16 = 47 / 2 = 24.5 or 25
= 32 + 21 = 53 / 2 = 26.5 or 27
= 33 + 30 = 63 / 2 = 31.5 or 32
= 34 + 33 = 67 / 2 = 33.5 or 34
= 35 + 36 = 71 / 2 = 35.5 or 36
= 36 + 34 = 70 / 2 = 35
= 37 + 37 = 74 / 2 = 37
= 38 + 41 = 79 / 2 = 39.5 or 40
= 39 + 37 = 76 / 2 = 38
= 40 + 53 = 93 / 2 = 46.5 or 47
= 41 + 52 = 93 / 2 = 46.5 or 47
= 42 + 45 = 87 / 2 = 43.5 or 44
= 43 + 47 = 90 / 2 = 45
= 44 + 38 = 82 / 2 = 41
= 45 + 41 = 86 / 2 = 43
= 46 + 46 = 92 / 2 = 46
= 47 + 44 = 91 / 2 = 45.5 or 46
= 48 + 32 = 80 / 2 = 40
= 49 + 50 = 99 / 2 = 49.5 or 50
= 50 + 51 = 101 / 2 = 50.5 or 51
= 51 + 48 = 99 / 2 = 49.5 or 50
= 52 + 49 = 101 / 2 = 50.5 or 51
= 53 + 53 = 106 / 2 = 53
= 54 + 54 = 108 / 2 = 54

and all have the same numerical value on every list.

Spoiler: final result

The tier groups are:
S: Characters with a numerical score of 1 - 10
A: Characters with a numerical score of 11 - 20
B: Characters with a numerical score of 21 - 30
C: Characters with a numerical score of 31 - 40
D: Characters with a numerical score of 41 - 50
e: Characters with a numerical score of 51 - 54

Characters are ordered based on number in the respective tiers. Dark Pit and Pit may as well be the exact same character and therefore share a spot. Any ties of whole numbers are determined in the order or wether someone was X.5 = Y or just Y. If two characters were both a certain number down to the decimal point, they are tied and can be ordered in whichever way the reader choses.

Exact ties include:
and
and
and
and

So, what do you all think? Is this accurate? Should I do this again if someone were to produce another infographic?