Official 4BR Tier List v1.0 - Competitive Impressions

[Jams.]

I'd be interested in talking about Rosalina (and not in the context of nerfs because that kind of discussion is bleh), since she has gotten significantly less discussion about her viability as opposed to most other top tiers. Whenever Rosa is brought up, it seems that "bad MK MU" and "bad Cloud MU" always follow close behind, stopping further discussion. However, what about the rest of her MUs? I think Dabuz's MU chart, though old, is a good reference point. Based on the chart, which was pre 1.1.5, Rosa has five negative MUs. Four of those characters have since been nerfed; ZSS and Sheik are non-trivially better MUs based on the nerfs alone (maybe even?). Dabuz if you have some time, I'd really appreciate if you could highlight any changes you would make to that MU chart in the current patch.

Of course, she still has Cloud and MK to deal with. MK, undoubtedly her worst MU and possibly a hard counter, has dropped off a cliff in terms of meta relevance for reasons already stated. His player base was never huge, and many MK players, even at the top level, are relying on other characters. Rosa's poor MU with MK matters less now than ever before. This leaves Cloud, who certainly has no representation issues. However, Dabuz and Falln have both indicated that this MU is better than their initial impressions suggest, though I would like to see them play versus high level Cloud mains to demonstrate what has changed (seriously, I hate this MU).

If Rosa's Cloud MU becomes provably winnable, I think it's fair to consider her at the same level of viability as the upper echelons of top tier (Diddy and co.) rather than the lower echelons (Mario and co.). Is this the opinion most people have already?

I mean aerial acceleration is still important. When Ryu or Roy jump you know exactly where they're going to land. There's no spacing mixups, rarely any cross-up mixups (then can't surprise you by going behind you because you should have already realised that when they jumped), and it's a lot more important than people give it credit for.

It's one of the reasons I don't rate Ryu highly. His main grounded approach tool is just walking up to you and d-tilting lol, everything else is punishable. If he goes to the air, he's very easy to intercept/outspace. Most characters can short hop backwards and whiff punish Ryu's aerials, he can't fade backwards to avoid this once he's committed to the jump, he has to use his double jump which can be risky/make him give up stage control.

FADC? Makes his movement, especially his aerial movement, a lot more scary and less predictable.

 

[L9999]

Do Luigi and Ness really count as zoners? Greninja I can kinda see but those two don't really strike me as zoners, especially because Ness's PK Fire is... not very good for zoning.

Yeah, from where this idea came from? PK Fire, PK Thunder and bad range won't help you zone. PKF maybe to mindgame stupid people but not zone. Ness is more of a turtle/mixup. And grab-to-win.

Edit: 'd.

 

[Megamang]

Baby_Sneak


People were crying because those things were clearly bull****.

The devs have made consistent, good choices on game balance. Who was crying for increased shieldstun? Because that was a HUGE equalizer for the cast, and showed deep insight into what direction they wanted the game to go.


You're missing my point. There are people, all over, complaining about all kinds of stupid ****. The devs are looking at the game, perhaps taking into consideration things they read (I agree with this point!), and making thoughtful changes. This is good.


Then a lot of posters are now saying "SEE, YOU COMPLAIN ABOUT SOMETHING AND IT GETS FIXED. GO POST YOUTUBE/VINES OF STUPID STUFF". This is just confirmation bias. Yes, it does have some effect, but the people that think they are contributing by just ******** are wrong; you can show something is stupid or unfair and they take that as evidence and work from there. It isn't a popularity contest. And "take to the streets and complain as much as you can" won't get you what you want unless what you want is already in line with their vision of the game.


When a huge portion of the community has a big problem with a character, and even top players are saying she is toxic in her current state, then you have a problem that does need addressing. The amount of complaining wasn't random, it was general disgust at her current state. So yea, if more than 75% of people thought she was disgusting (I did even though my character beat her, for example) they rushed some changes. But they looked at what made her horrible to fight, and toned it down.

 

[outfoxd]

I heard Zinoto call Diddy a zoner once. I wonder if that gives insight as to his playstyle and mentality.

 

[Fatmanonice]

So, with all the nerfs that happened to Bayo, Sheik, ZSS, and Cloud in the past two months, do any of them really have counters now? What I mean is, do any of them have something like a 6-4 disadvantage against anyone now? I don't play any of these characters and my scene has one Sheik player and one Cloud/ZSS player that I beat all the time so I have no real perspective on this. I think Sheik and Bayo's nerfs were severe enough to finally earn them counters but I know not everyone agrees on this.

 

[aεrgiα]

You have to note that this is Pre-patch Sheik, with 50/50 off grab and full-range needles/fair. Now take into account that Sheik has no option that closes stocks off as quickly, nor a means to harass Lucario from the same range.

no, its not, its post patch, and precisely the reason i chose that clip, because what better way to back up your point of post patch sheik not necessarily losing to lucario than using a post patch clip

 

[C0rvus]

So, with all the nerfs that happened to Bayo, Sheik, ZSS, and Cloud in the past two months, do any of them really have counters now? What I mean is, do any of them have something like a 6-4 disadvantage against anyone now? I don't play any of these characters and my scene has one Sheik player and one Cloud/ZSS player that I beat all the time so I have no real perspective on this. I think Sheik and Bayo's nerfs were severe enough to finally earn them counters but I know not everyone agrees on this.

Bayo likely has multiple 4-6's (Diddy, I'd bet on Toon Link being pretty bad as well, maaaaybe Mega Man.)

 

[ShadowGuy1]

I'd be interested in talking about Rosalina (and not in the context of nerfs because that kind of discussion is bleh), since she has gotten significantly less discussion about her viability as opposed to most other top tiers. Whenever Rosa is brought up, it seems that "bad MK MU" and "bad Cloud MU" always follow close behind, stopping further discussion. However, what about the rest of her MUs? I think Dabuz's MU chart, though old, is a good reference point. Based on the chart, which was pre 1.1.5, Rosa has five negative MUs. Four of those characters have since been nerfed; ZSS and Sheik are non-trivially better MUs based on the nerfs alone (maybe even?). Dabuz if you have some time, I'd really appreciate if you could highlight any changes you would make to that MU chart in the current patch.

Of course, she still has Cloud and MK to deal with. MK, undoubtedly her worst MU and possibly a hard counter, has dropped off a cliff in terms of meta relevance for reasons already stated. His player base was never huge, and many MK players, even at the top level, are relying on other characters. Rosa's poor MU with MK matters less now than ever before. This leaves Cloud, who certainly has no representation issues. However, Dabuz and Falln have both indicated that this MU is better than their initial impressions suggest, though I would like to see them play versus high level Cloud mains to demonstrate what has changed (seriously, I hate this MU).

If Rosa's Cloud MU becomes provably winnable, I think it's fair to consider her at the same level of viability as the upper echelons of top tier (Diddy and co.) rather than the lower echelons (Mario and co.). Is this the opinion most people have already?



FADC? Makes his movement, especially his aerial movement, a lot more scary and less predictable.

Quite frankly, every top tier has bad mu, even Cloud and Diddy. Other slightly losing MU's for Rosa are Marth.

 

[FeelMeUp]

Rosa: Cloud/MK
Sheik: Ryu
ZSS: Diddy
Bayo: Anyone with a god tier neutral/disadvantage(Sheik, Diddy, Pika, etc)
Ryu: MM/Pika
Cloud: Sheik
etc

 

[FallofBrawl]

I'm wondering where people get this idea that zoner = safe projectile spammer

 

[TurboLink]

I mean aerial acceleration is still important. When Ryu or Roy jump you know exactly where they're going to land. There's no spacing mixups, rarely any cross-up mixups (then can't surprise you by going behind you because you should have already realised that when they jumped), and it's a lot more important than people give it credit for.

It's one of the reasons I don't rate Ryu highly. His main grounded approach tool is just walking up to you and d-tilting lol, everything else is punishable. If he goes to the air, he's very easy to intercept/outspace. Most characters can short hop backwards and whiff punish Ryu's aerials, he can't fade backwards to avoid this once he's committed to the jump, he has to use his double jump which can be risky/make him give up stage control.

Finally, someone who understands. Anyone who thinks air acceleration isn't important just needs to pick up Ryu and realize the things you can't do with him that you can with other characters.

 

[Dabuz]

I'd be interested in talking about Rosalina (and not in the context of nerfs because that kind of discussion is bleh), since she has gotten significantly less discussion about her viability as opposed to most other top tiers. Whenever Rosa is brought up, it seems that "bad MK MU" and "bad Cloud MU" always follow close behind, stopping further discussion. However, what about the rest of her MUs? I think Dabuz's MU chart, though old, is a good reference point. Based on the chart, which was pre 1.1.5, Rosa has five negative MUs. Four of those characters have since been nerfed; ZSS and Sheik are non-trivially better MUs based on the nerfs alone (maybe even?). Dabuz if you have some time, I'd really appreciate if you could highlight any changes you would make to that MU chart in the current patch.

Of course, she still has Cloud and MK to deal with. MK, undoubtedly her worst MU and possibly a hard counter, has dropped off a cliff in terms of meta relevance for reasons already stated. His player base was never huge, and many MK players, even at the top level, are relying on other characters. Rosa's poor MU with MK matters less now than ever before. This leaves Cloud, who certainly has no representation issues. However, Dabuz and Falln have both indicated that this MU is better than their initial impressions suggest, though I would like to see them play versus high level Cloud mains to demonstrate what has changed (seriously, I hate this MU).

If Rosa's Cloud MU becomes provably winnable, I think it's fair to consider her at the same level of viability as the upper echelons of top tier (Diddy and co.) rather than the lower echelons (Mario and co.). Is this the opinion most people have already?

Rosa isn't solo viable, end of discussion.

 

[Nu~]

You realise that this (bolded) is quite literally a non-factor, right? I do think Pac-Man does deceptively well against Diddy but including statements like that in the reasoning is basically saying you can beat Diddies by coasting on matchup inexperience. The rest of your post is somewhat solid although very vague and could apply to basically all of Pac's MUs.

You're right. I may have been...

reeeeeeeeachin a bit on that part.

As for the vagueness of my matchup analysis, I got kinda lazy and didn't feel like going into specifics. We do well against diddy just by playing the standard pacman gameplan so I didn't feel that I had to add too much.

 

[Baby_Sneak]

Rosa isn't solo viable, end of discussion.

What? a top tier not solo viable?

If rosa is not solo viable, then only 3 characters are solo viable and the term itself doesn't even mean much.

 

[valakmtnsmash4]

Rosa isn't solo viable, end of discussion.

I'm really gonna enjoy the debate that will come out of this.
I'm Interested to hear everyone's thoughts

 

[FallofBrawl]

I don't think there will be a character capable of taking multiple tourneys without a secondary. But if solo viability means consistent top 8, then maybe you can make an argument for Sheik, Diddy, Mario, Cloud, whatever.

And one thing Pacman has over Diddy is that his shield pressure means nothing to Pac. The vortex situations he creates can easily be avoided with up-b or nair OoS/roll mixups, and in the endgame it proves to be real good at shaving diddy's stock without dying.

 

[|RK|]

no, its not, its post patch, and precisely the reason i chose that clip, because what better way to back up your point of post patch sheik not necessarily losing to lucario than using a post patch clip

Ah, sorry - I was referring to the post you quoted - ZeRo vs Shiny.

EDIT: That's certainly a good point with that video, though. Judging the way Day lost each stock, he'd have been better off holding shield and not recovering above Sheik. And teching. Fthrow to bouncing fish took one stock, but I'm not sure if that's true.

EDIT 2: Thanks meticulousboy

 

[meticulousboy]

Ah, sorry - I was referring to the post you quoted - ZeRo vs Shiny.

Fixed.

 

[ItsRainingGravy]

Perceived top characters with results to back it up:

And now for a shocking fact: this group includes several characters who lose at least one matchup badly.

Mario seemingly has problems with at least Rosalina and Sonic, Mega Man has been said to die against Sheik, Rosalina struggles with MK and Cloud, and ZSS has a tough time against Diddy. Ryu might honestly have a bad MU vs Mega Man along with a bunch of other zoners (as well as grapplers) and Sheik likely loses to characters who have a decent neutral with vastly higher reward or similar reward but a recovery that she can't touch. No idea about Mewtwo, Sonic, Fox, Cloud or Diddy, but I can think of losing MUs for all of them with confidence except the last two.

And yes it would be super nice to have a top tier MU chart (that doesn't include Luigi pls) made by well-informed or experienced people.

Thank you for bringing this back up. I was honestly worried that people missed my post earlier.


Hmm. Based on what I have found so far...

Spoiler: Cloud's Matchups

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Spoiler: Diddy's Matchups

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Spoiler: Fox's Matchups

Loses to:
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Spoiler: Mario's Matchups

Loses to:
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Spoiler: Mega Man's Matchups

Loses to:
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Spoiler: Mewtwo's Matchups

Loses to?:
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Spoiler: Rosalina's Matchups

Loses to?: ()
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Spoiler: Ryu's Matchups

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Spoiler: Sheik's Matchups

Even with/disadvantage?: ()
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Spoiler: Sonic's Matchups

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Spoiler: ZSS's Matchups

Loses to:
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How does this look, everyone? There's probably a ton of mistakes, but I tried to keep track of everything as best as I could. If anyone spots something out of place/something that is disagreeable, please let me know~

 

[FeelMeUp]

I'm assuming in this context solo viable means "Will you have to switch if you see X character in bracket?"
i.e MM vs Sheik(prepatch), Ness vs Rosa, Cloud vs Wario, etc.
Rosa's at risk of losing to pretty much any MK or Cloud that knows what they're doing in the MU, meaning the character certainly is not solo viable.

Edit: btw, gravy. The reason Sheik won the Fox vs Sheik MU wasn't touched at all. Most of the kills she gets on Fox weren't dthrow setups, and the majority of the neutral actually didn't really touch needles. The MU hasn't changed very much if at all.

 

[meticulousboy]

Thank you for bringing this back up. I was honestly worried that people missed my post earlier.


Hmm. Based on what I have found so far...

Spoiler: Cloud's Matchups

Even with/disadvantage:
Even with:
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Wins against?: ()

Spoiler: Diddy's Matchups

Even with/disadvantage:
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Spoiler: Fox's Matchups

Loses to?: (probably not anymore since she was nerfed)
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Spoiler: Mario's Matchups

Loses to:
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Spoiler: Mega Man's Matchups

Loses to?:
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Spoiler: Mewtwo's Matchups

Loses to?:
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Spoiler: Rosalina's Matchups

Loses to?: ()
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Spoiler: Ryu's Matchups

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Spoiler: Sheik's Matchups

Even with/disadvantage?: ()
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Wins against?: (probably not anymore since she was nerfed)

Spoiler: Sonic's Matchups

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Spoiler: ZSS's Matchups

Loses to:
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How does this look, everyone? There's probably a ton of mistakes, but I tried to keep track of everything as best as I could. If anyone spots something out of place/something that is disagreeable, please let me know~

What exactly makes Mario at a disadvantage with Mewtwo? I'm just curious.

 

[ItsRainingGravy]

Edit: btw, gravy. The reason Sheik won the Fox vs Sheik MU wasn't touched at all. Most of the kills she gets on Fox weren't dthrow setups, and the majority of the neutral actually didn't really touch needles. The MU hasn't changed very much if at all.

Ah, I see.

What exactly makes Mario at a disadvantage with Mewtwo? I'm just curious.

Mewtwo has good tilts for keeping Mario out, such as Utilt and Dtilt (especially Dtilt). Fair can easily contest Mario's aerials. Mewtwo doesn't really have to worry about Mario's Cape either due to his own reflector. And then there's the win that Abadango had over Ally at Pound 2016. Someone else can probably go into further detail than I can, though.

 

[Baby_Sneak]

Solo viability will be available to more characters once more MUs become solidified and the neutral played more patiently.

 

[meticulousboy]

Mewtwo has good tilts for keeping Mario out, such as Utilt and Dtilt (especially Dtilt). Fair can easily contest Mario's aerials. Mewtwo doesn't really have to worry about Mario's Cape either due to his own reflector. And then there's the win that Abadango had over Ally at Pound 2016. Someone else can probably go into further detail than I can, though.

I figured those things, especially the part about Forward Air. Now that I think about it, Mario's Neutral B doesn't stand a chance against Mewtwo's Back Air when both are in the air.

 

[Ghostbone]

FADC? Makes his movement, especially his aerial movement, a lot more scary and less predictable.

Over 20 frames of start up and loses to any multi-hit, it's a niche option but one that's very easy to punish.

What? a top tier not solo viable?

If rosa is not solo viable, then only 3 characters are solo viable and the term itself doesn't even mean much.

And that's why people should stop using the term lol.

 

[TDK]

Rosa isn't solo viable, end of discussion.

Rosa actually is solo viable. Could will pretty much trounce any rosa, sure, and so will MK. But the best MK mains are dropping him, so he's less of an issue. With cloud, you just have to play really, really well.

 

[Megamang]

Also, mewtwo's tail moves work like swords which he naturally doesn't like. He has to get in on you somehow, and bair keeps him out in that direction, uair juggles him hard. He has to get in and bair or grab or something to get something started, but mewtwo has good, disjointed moves and really solid mobility, or at least speed if not mobility.

And he is looking to kill Mario in a myriad of ways, while Mario is considerably more limited and the counterplay for avoiding his options is pretty straightforwards, Mario can mix you up or catch a bad rolll or something, but his zoning is worse than yours by a vast margin so he has to try and break through a really fast swordie with ludicrous reward.


Regarding FADC and mobility

20 frames isn't that long to open up a tree of options, especially if in that tree you get a crazy conversion for lots of damage if you land the actual Focus Attack Punch. Then, you can change your direction instantly with a B reverse to start with, then you have DC left or right to evade if you can tell you aren't gonna get a hit.

With the canceling on hit, it pretty much ruins your shield and Ryu is no slouch at putting out more shield damage.

And Ryu has Fair and Bair to land with if he uses rising FA. Falling FA is dangerous and strong on shield, but with the cancel you can rush to punish a roll, or choose to cancel to an attack (which can be swatted away but thats risky since they don't want to get hit with the punch they are usually GTFO'ing.


So... Ryu is decently mobile in the air, can't drift like Megaman but has a nice special that does boost his mobility significantly and also carries with it some powerful confirms and shield pressure. On the other hand, it can be stifled by characters with good multi hitting moves.


So yea, Ryu is as mobile as he should be, he has base stat issues but has a tool that is pretty good for dealing with the issue partly, but has flaws. Like all of Ryu's tools.

 

[DDK]

Thank you for bringing this back up. I was honestly worried that people missed my post earlier.


Hmm. Based on what I have found so far...

Spoiler: Cloud's Matchups

Even with/disadvantage:
Even with:
Even with/advantage: ()
Wins against?: ()

Spoiler: Diddy's Matchups

Even with/disadvantage:
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Wins against:

Spoiler: Fox's Matchups

Loses to?:
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Spoiler: Mario's Matchups

Loses to:
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Spoiler: Mega Man's Matchups

Loses to?:
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Spoiler: Mewtwo's Matchups

Loses to?:
Even with/disadvantage:
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Spoiler: Rosalina's Matchups

Loses to?: ()
Even with/disadvantage: ()
Even with: ()
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Wins against:

Spoiler: Ryu's Matchups

Even with/disadvantage:
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Spoiler: Sheik's Matchups

Even with/disadvantage?: ()
Even with: ()()
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Spoiler: Sonic's Matchups

Even with/disadvantage:
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Spoiler: ZSS's Matchups

Loses to:
Even with/disadvantage:
Even with:
Even with/advantage:

How does this look, everyone? There's probably a ton of mistakes, but I tried to keep track of everything as best as I could. If anyone spots something out of place/something that is disagreeable, please let me know~

Sonic most certainly struggles against Cloud. Cloud is the one matchup that Sonic cannot simply sit back and force an approach. In fact, Cloud forces Sonic to approach by charging limit, which messes up Sonic's camping gameplan. Additionally, Sonic's lack of kill options outside of hard reads or offstage gimps with Up B (which a good Cloud should be able to avoid) means he's more likely to die to a limit Cross Slash or rage Uair/Bair before he can secure a stock. Cloud is also able to juggle Sonic for days with his Uair strings since Sonic can't exactly land or challenge the move. The matchup is still winnable but the Sonic player needs to play carefully while maintaining an offensive presence and cannot afford nearly as many mistakes as the Cloud player can.

Results also support top/high level Sonics losing to Clouds of an equal or lower skill level (even from players who use him as a secondary). 6WX's losses against M2K are one thing given M2K's proficiency at Smash, but then you have SGK's Sonic losing to MaxKetchum's Cloud at GOML (which was considered by many to be an upset). It should also be telling that Ally was getting outplayed hard by Wrath's Sonic at Momocon, but as soon as he made the switch to Cloud he proceeded to decimate the kid. While Ally's veteran experience most likely had a large part to play in this, the fact that he was forced off his Mario to Cloud in order to win speaks to which character the matchup favours.

So yeah, for those of you sick of being timed out by Sonics on Duck Hunt, a certain spiky-haired mercenary with a tragic past is likely your best option.

 

[ItsRainingGravy]

Sonic most certainly struggles against Cloud. Cloud is the one matchup that Sonic cannot simply sit back and force an approach. In fact, Cloud forces Sonic to approach by charging limit, which messes up Sonic's camping gameplan. Additionally, Sonic's lack of kill options outside of hard reads or offstage gimps with Up B (which a good Cloud should be able to avoid) means he's more likely to die to a limit Cross Slash or rage Uair/Bair before he can secure a stock. Cloud is also able to juggle Sonic for days with his Uair strings since Sonic can't exactly land or challenge the move. The matchup is still winnable but the Sonic player needs to play carefully while maintaining an offensive presence and cannot afford nearly as many mistakes as the Cloud player can.

Results also support top/high level Sonics losing to Clouds of an equal or lower skill level (even from players who use him as a secondary). 6WX's losses against M2K are one thing given M2K's proficiency at Smash, but then you have SGK's Sonic losing to MaxKetchum's Cloud at GOML (which was considered by many to be an upset). It should also be telling that Ally was getting outplayed hard by Wrath's Sonic at Momocon, but as soon as he made the switch to Cloud he proceeded to decimate the kid. While Ally's veteran experience most likely had a large part to play in this, the fact that he was forced off his Mario to Cloud in order to win speaks to which character the matchup favours.

So yeah, for those of you sick of being timed out by Sonics on Duck Hunt, a certain spiky-haired mercenary with a tragic past is likely your best option.

All of that sounds very reasonable. And yeah, I was pretty skeptical of Sonic's placement. So I really appreciate the info.

Gonna fix that.

 

[LiL.Will]

I heard Zinoto call Diddy a zoner once. I wonder if that gives insight as to his playstyle and mentality.

Diddy Kong is more of a All-Rounder/Half-Grappler character hes a perfect example of "jack of all trades master of none" He can zone out really well With SHFF Fairs,(PP) Dtilts,SHFF Bairs/SH Double Bairs,and Peanut Popgun. He can also play like a Bait and Punish character by simply using his great melee-esque movement around the stage while holding a banana but through all of his different playstyles that he could do he still focuses on getting that grab no matter what. I could go on and on about this wonderful character~ so yes Diddy is a "Zoning" character honestly no Diddy plays the same to me. Hope that helped.

 

[Trifroze]

Loses to:
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Seems accurate, although Fox, Mario and possibly Cloud are probably closer to dead even than anything else (although if they lean one way or another you placed them right) and I can't really speak for Mega Man. Reasons because I feel like typing something:

- Diddy and Sheik simply outneutral ZSS too hard but Diddy doesn't have Sheik's killing problems, is harder to hit in several crucial situations and he lives longer. Gimping is only a small factor against Diddy.

- Ryu is tough because ZSS can't afford to whiff grabs at all and can't zone him out quite well enough, plus he lives goddamn forever. The usual medium risk high reward gameplay becomes high risk medium reward, except contrary to most of ZSS' other top tier matchups she has an edge in neutral here. Deep SRK recovery is hard to contest with anything.

- Cloud's recovery and ledgesnap are both relatively easy to gimp with ZSS. Neutral is annoying because limit forces approaches and nair is a straight up anti-ZSS move. ZSS escapes Cloud's juggles better than most characters but dear ****ing science if Cloud's mobility in limit isn't overwhelming.

- Mario is easy if ZSS manages to zone him out and deny his approaches, hard if he gets in with grabs and manages to read ZSS' jumps with usmash and rising aerials. Completely depends on who gets a better feel of the other player (spotdodges/shielding/jumps etc).

- Fox is tough in neutral because he breaks ZSS' zoning easily and then sort of does whatever he wants around her shield, plus he punishes ZSS' high risk gameplan pretty hard. Still, he gets bopped pretty badly if he's grabbed or put offstage because he can die very early from up b near the top and dsmash into flip kick offstage.

- Zair kind of destroys the Mewtwo's and Rosalina's zoning, and they both have pretty severe trouble landing and coming up from the ledge. Their light weights help immensely as well.

- Grab and other horizontal disjoints with their high reward mess up Sonic's spindash based neutral plan and ZSS is able to cover his landings from spring jump pretty well.

 

[meticulousboy]

Zero Suit Samus needs to be careful about being predictable with her Neutral B against a Mario, though. Next thing you know, only one Side B from Mario and it's game!

 

[ARISTOS]

I'd be interested in talking about Rosalina (and not in the context of nerfs because that kind of discussion is bleh), since she has gotten significantly less discussion about her viability as opposed to most other top tiers. Whenever Rosa is brought up, it seems that "bad MK MU" and "bad Cloud MU" always follow close behind, stopping further discussion. However, what about the rest of her MUs? I think Dabuz's MU chart, though old, is a good reference point. Based on the chart, which was pre 1.1.5, Rosa has five negative MUs. Four of those characters have since been nerfed; ZSS and Sheik are non-trivially better MUs based on the nerfs alone (maybe even?). Dabuz if you have some time, I'd really appreciate if you could highlight any changes you would make to that MU chart in the current patch.

Of course, she still has Cloud and MK to deal with. MK, undoubtedly her worst MU and possibly a hard counter, has dropped off a cliff in terms of meta relevance for reasons already stated. His player base was never huge, and many MK players, even at the top level, are relying on other characters. Rosa's poor MU with MK matters less now than ever before. This leaves Cloud, who certainly has no representation issues. However, Dabuz and Falln have both indicated that this MU is better than their initial impressions suggest, though I would like to see them play versus high level Cloud mains to demonstrate what has changed (seriously, I hate this MU).

If Rosa's Cloud MU becomes provably winnable, I think it's fair to consider her at the same level of viability as the upper echelons of top tier (Diddy and co.) rather than the lower echelons (Mario and co.). Is this the opinion most people have already?

Rosa isn't popular so it's hard to get decent information regarding her viability. Dabuz saying she isn't solo viable is really interesting.

I think the buffs to swords overall have been a net negative for her which I think has harmed her significantly.

 

[Appledees]

Sheik still beats Megaman tho not as badly as before. ZSS is kinda in the even/disadvantage tier honestly same with maybe Mewtwo. I can kinda see Cloud as being even.

The only high tiers Megaman honestly beats there are Ryu and Sonic. I'm still in that weird opinion I guess that doesn't think Diddy loses to Megaman though its probably one of Diddy's more "harder" mathups which I agree with.

 

[FeelMeUp]

Yeah I don't think Diddy loses to Megaman.
Megaman just beats "throw out 4 fairs grab banana throw banana instantly" Diddy play.
Diddy have to actually think in this matchup, and as a Diddy co-main myself I can honestly say a lot of us have issues in matchups we have to use our brains in without relying on dumb fair walls and free 20% punishes.
which is ironically all zoner MUs.

 

[ItsRainingGravy]

Changed Mega Man a little bit. Waiting on more information before making any other changes. Going to go bed for tonight.

 

[TheGoodGuava]

Her needles are still the most irritating thing ever and can combo into BF. Sheik doesn't give a damn about anyone's approach options and she can approach as she pleases. Make a single mistake ->dash grab -> gonna get tilted repeatedily/Faired. Sit at the edge and % will skyrocket because Sheik doesn't give a damn about anyone's ledge options courtesy of her Nair/Fair. Want to gimp her? So sorry, you can't unless you hit her with a BS DSmash w/o a jump or do the frame 2 thing. Speaking of offstage, the moment you get there you won't come back, unless you are ZSS/Bayo/MK. Wanna jump? Uair/Fair plane. Wanna challenge Bouncing Fish? You can't, and that thing messes your position and steals jumps. Her throws may not combo as before, but they still net her BFs and advantageous positions.is not going anywhere outside top tier. And it has nothing to do with "she was the best for so long" She is, period. Only one that contest her is , but it is irrelevant whether he or she is the best because she is still going to win tournaments, she still has a superb neutral and she still wrecks most of the cast.

Pikachu could dtilt, thunderjolt, fair, and quick attack around the stage as he pleases while also comboing into literally anything. He doesn't care about anyone's approach because he can just QA out of it unless you hard read him while he can approach almost whenever he wants. Make a single mistake and he can punish you from anywhere on the stage with a quick 20 - 30% because QA/QAC, grab, and utilt. Go to the ledge with any character but another Pikachu, MK, or Sheik and you're risking a stock/a ton of damage. The only way to actually edgeguard him is with a constant hitbox and even then you have to hard read his recovery because of the nearly infinite amount of mixups he has and the ability to just go right under the stage whenever he damn well pleases. Going offstage is a death sentence with almost any character because of Pikachu's edgeguarding abilities, whether its dragging you down with bair, stage spiking you with dair, 2 framing you with jabs, thunderspiking you, b revers thundering you, fair/nairplaning you, or doing some tipper upair -> footstool shenanigans, it will always be risky. His throws still combo into 25%+ strings and he can just quick attack/nair out of most disadvantageous positions.

So why is Pikachu considered only high tier while Sheik gets to retain her top tier status? Were either under rating Pikachu, or overrating Sheik

 

[ARGHETH]

Pikachu could dtilt, thunderjolt, fair, and quick attack around the stage as he pleases while also comboing into literally anything. He doesn't care about anyone's approach because he can just QA out of it unless you hard read him while he can approach almost whenever he wants. Make a single mistake and he can punish you from anywhere on the stage with a quick 20 - 30% because QA/QAC, grab, and utilt. Go to the ledge with any character but another Pikachu, MK, or Sheik and you're risking a stock/a ton of damage. The only way to actually edgeguard him is with a constant hitbox and even then you have to hard read his recovery because of the nearly infinite amount of mixups he has and the ability to just go right under the stage whenever he damn well pleases. Going offstage is a death sentence with almost any character because of Pikachu's edgeguarding abilities, whether its dragging you down with bair, stage spiking you with dair, 2 framing you with jabs, thunderspiking you, b revers thundering you, fair/nairplaning you, or doing some tipper upair -> footstool shenanigans, it will always be risky. His throws still combo into 25%+ strings and he can just quick attack/nair out of most disadvantageous positions.

So why is Pikachu considered only high tier while Sheik gets to retain her top tier status? Were either under rating Pikachu, or overrating Sheik

Sheik has a significantly better projectile and much better air speed, for one. She's also miles ahead in results.

 

[Eugene Wang]

Pikachu could dtilt, thunderjolt, fair, and quick attack around the stage as he pleases while also comboing into literally anything. He doesn't care about anyone's approach because he can just QA out of it unless you hard read him while he can approach almost whenever he wants. Make a single mistake and he can punish you from anywhere on the stage with a quick 20 - 30% because QA/QAC, grab, and utilt. Go to the ledge with any character but another Pikachu, MK, or Sheik and you're risking a stock/a ton of damage. The only way to actually edgeguard him is with a constant hitbox and even then you have to hard read his recovery because of the nearly infinite amount of mixups he has and the ability to just go right under the stage whenever he damn well pleases. Going offstage is a death sentence with almost any character because of Pikachu's edgeguarding abilities, whether its dragging you down with bair, stage spiking you with dair, 2 framing you with jabs, thunderspiking you, b revers thundering you, fair/nairplaning you, or doing some tipper upair -> footstool shenanigans, it will always be risky. His throws still combo into 25%+ strings and he can just quick attack/nair out of most disadvantageous positions.

So why is Pikachu considered only high tier while Sheik gets to retain her top tier status? Were either under rating Pikachu, or overrating Sheik

Pikachu wants to be in, but he needs to be touching the opponent for the majority of his moves, and his moves can be beat out simply by sticking a damaging limb out. That includes quick attack.

 

[Megamang]

Yea, Diddy and Sonic must totally change their game plans to get around lemons.

Diddy is well equipped to fight like this though, so I'd say that if the Diddy knows the MM matchup spefically, it comes down a lot to the players playing and how they handle their new gameplan. Lemons destroy bananas and stops spindash, but they have other ways to win. Its great to force someone to play a weird game with their main they don't play much, while Mega is just doing Mega stuff. Bair offstage is a great move vs Diddy as well, if you float out there with him you can threaten bair for a while, and if he pulls out his canon anywhere besides the very bottom of the screen you get a free bair. Otherwise, you can recognize that they WILL go deep and try for a 2frame,or a dair (very high reward if you can hit anyone recovering with the sweetspot)