Official 4BR Tier List v1.0 - Competitive Impressions

[Yonder]

ROB is just... consistently threatening. The fact he is really heavy, has a mediocre recovery, and has a kill throw combo that kills absurdly early with rage means he is never out of the game. Also, lasers are annoying and gyro at the ledge is freakin tough to deal with. His 'linking' hits into usmash are some of the most generous in all of smash as well, he'll grab my toe and then boom sweetspot...

Huh? I agree, his recovery is well, eh, but unless it was a typo, how does a mediocre recovery help boasts his case as a good character? (Which he is against zoners not wielding reflectors, imo)

 

[ARGHETH]

Huh? I agree, his recovery is well, eh, but unless it was a typo, how does a mediocre recovery help boasts his case as a good character? (Which he is against zoners not wielding reflectors, imo)

Because his recovery's decent instead of terrible, so it's not as much of a weakness? That's the impression I got, anyways.

 

[Yonder]

Because his recovery's decent instead of terrible, so it's not as much of a weakness? That's the impression I got, anyways.

Ahh, I always preceived the word mediocre as below average, not very good (also what Google says) Like Mario in Brawl, all around mediocre. Hence why he was an upper low tier.

 

[bc1910]

Mega Man gets results when ScAtt travels. Mega Man's period of no results just so happened to align with when ScAtt didn't go out of state. I highly doubt that's a coincidence.

Meaning he relies on one player and suffers from Pikachu syndrome, which isn't a good thing.

I don't think this is true any more though. Rep has picked up for him, especially in Japan, which is good for the blue bomber. It'll just be interesting to see if he has staying power.

 

[Megamang]

Eh, I was originally going to say he had a good recovery, but he doesn't. But it doesn't get him killed, so much as it causes damage to be racked up on him... then he beep boops you and its over.

Regardless, that was a poor word choice. I guess I meant... uhh... plucky? He is plucky? His recovery isn't good, but with his weight and aerials he can force his way on the stage. Sometimes he'll take 50% and only hit the opponent once, but to get back into advantage it can be worth it. You can rack 60% and have it not do anything except fuel his rage.


So was listing things that I felt made ROB threatening, and his recovery is one of them. Its pretty good for a heavyweight, and allows him to chase to the top of the screen with that ridiculous uair.

 

[juddy96]

Meaning he relies on one player and suffers from Pikachu syndrome, which isn't a good thing.

I don't think this is true any more though. Rep has picked up for him, especially in Japan, which is good for the blue bomber. It'll just be interesting to see if he has staying power.

Kamemushi has been so consistent lately, 7 straight appearances in the top 8 for him with Mega Man and a buffet of secondaries (mainly Cloud and Yoshi). He has confirmed on twitter he will try to go to EVO, will be interesting to see how he fares there. Japan has some other decent MM's (Daiki, Nga, Kisha, Supa) but their results are as inconsistent as the rest of Japan. None of them have had a breakout tournament yet (and Daiki and Supa have quite a few characters as well). And of course Greward is still doing a good job with the character in Spain.

 

[Ninety]

You must have missed DK Will's MU chart lol

That and Mr II's are more the exception to the rule of "My mid tier main beats or goes even with 90% of the cast you guys".

 

[Y2Kay]

Earth literally got top 8 at KSM 2016 this weekend with solo Pit.

Can we stop acting like no one plays the character and that he doesn't ever do well?

 

[Routa]

I just love how everyone went crazy about MM placing high... And how people forget that characters like Link and Mii Brawler are placing very high in Europe.

Oh wait. Europe is full of casuals. We only care about Japan and North America when it comes to results 'cause they Esports. Hurr durr.

 

[Y2Kay]

I'd believe it with Mewtwo. That character is damn scary now. It is just hard to be consistent when you are super light, especially when you have really committal moves like nair, confusion, and his pretty bad grab.

That said, he does have a lot of non-committal spacing moves. Fair freakin kills all the time, regardless of how stale it is. That move alone could make some character's neutral, but he also gets a nair that nets him followups up until it can straight up give him a kill. It doesn't seem like Mewtwo fails often so much as the other player makes some good reads that make Mewtwo regret being aggressive.

I still think Greninja beats Mewtwo, the slow double jump away and the lightness together make usmash terrifying, and shurikans can actually compete with shadow ball for forcing approaches, if you are clever with your charge

Oh yeah I forgot to tell you guys but rich brown beat Istudying Sunday night.

From my experience the MU feels sucky from both sides. They do really take a dump on each other.

I view that MU as even.

 

[ARISTOS]

does well on a regional level, the reason people aren't so sure about him is because he falls off at big tournaments.
always does well when his best mains show up

 

[Joey T.]

Earth literally got top 8 at KSM 2016 this weekend with solo Pit.

Can we stop acting like no one plays the character and that he doesn't ever do well?

Earth keeps getting good results with (Dark) Pit in Japan and the theory for the character is looking good. Besides, even though it only happens once every thousand years, when Nairo uses Dark Pit in tournament we can see that the character really has potential to develop.

So yeah, the Pits are definitely relevant in the meta.

 

[Poisonous]

Earth literally got top 8 at KSM 2016 this weekend with solo Pit.

Can we stop acting like no one plays the character and that he doesn't ever do well?

Nasubi did the same with solo at a 5th place finish at KSB 2016, losing to Kagemushi (who won) and Ken (Nasubi would have made top 4 if he didn't fast fall after that Bair g3 D: ). He also placed second at Sumabato 9 recently and another 2nd place, taking out Earth and Atelier) finish at a tournament before that (the name is slipping my mind right now) both 2nd place finishes were behind 9B. I feel like a lot of people gloss over Wario and simply say "he relies too much on waft" without actually looking at the tools the character has. Arguably the best command grab and a powerful F-Throw makes shielding vs Wario a bit risky. His recovery is insane, allowing him to recovery from anywhere with Side-B and Up-B which aids his edge-guarding. He has great aerial movement and an incredible ledge-guarding game thanks to projectile bike, waft, and chomp. His range is rather poor, but the threat of waft helps force approaches as Wario naturally benefits from nothing going on as it gives him free waft charge. He has multiple waft confirms which can kill as early at 30-35% near the edge of the stage if you get clipped. Hitting his shield unsafely can lead to Nair OoS into Waft for instance, with the nair dragging you closer to the ledge for the Waft to take you out. Looking at the accepted top 3 (from what I gather) as Bayo/Cloud/Rosa. His roughest MUs unfortunately are and , but they aren't as bad as I've seen some people say (Wario-Cloud is a far cry from 30:70). He arguably beats Rosalina, and results mostly point towards this with Nasubi dominating Atelier, and Abadango over Dabuz being the notable times this MU has been seen. Reflex has also expressed in the past that he believe Wario wins the MU although that was a few months ago. On the other hand Dabuz has expressed that he thinks the MU is even and did take out Tweek at a KTAR a while back in a fairly dominating fashion if memory serves me correctly.

 

[C0rvus]

As much as ROB is consistently threatening with Gyro traps, down throw 50/50s and his kill throw, he is also consistently able to get destroyed. He is very prone to being juggled due to his frame and lack of good aerials for escaping. His recovery can also leave him pretty vulnerable where it counts. And if his opponent gets control of the gyro, things can be pretty annoying.

 

[Goodstyle_4]

Nasubi did the same with solo at a 5th place finish at KSM 2016, losing to Kagemushi (who won) and Ken (almost made top 4 if he didn't fast fall after that Bair g3 D: ).

https://youtu.be/4QWGUmSpDBY?t=653

For those that want to see it. This was a real heartbreaker, Nasubi's Wario should have made it farther. Also, you had a great point in general, Wario's success has been on the rise thanks to Sheik's adjustments.

 

[Djent]

Meaning he relies on one player and suffers from Pikachu syndrome, which isn't a good thing.

I don't think this is true any more though. Rep has picked up for him, especially in Japan, which is good for the blue bomber. It'll just be interesting to see if he has staying power.

TBH, everything you say about applies equally to . I only bring this up because (correct me if I'm wrong) you're pretty adamant about the latter's potential. I'd personally argue the correct response in both cases is optimism tempered with skepticism. There are just too many contenders for high tier, so either it'll end up including half the cast or some candidates will slide into upper mid.

Earth literally got top 8 at KSM 2016 this weekend with solo Pit.

Can we stop acting like no one plays the character and that he doesn't ever do well?

FWIW he went in a blind pick vs. Komorikiri and lost; he may have used him in other matches. Dude beat Ranai with his main though, so IMO the point stands anyway.

 

[FallofBrawl]

Look at how easy it is by nerfing top tiers to get more varied results, rather than buffing everyone else.

Sheik is given nerfs to her needles and throws and all of a sudden, zoners have a place in the meta.

And don't bring up how "boring" it is when you're nerfing, when was dthrow 50/50s and needle camping exciting? Sheiks finding new ways to kill every time isn't boring.

 

[my_T]

Earth literally got top 8 at KSM 2016 this weekend with solo Pit.

Can we stop acting like no one plays the character and that he doesn't ever do well?

^^^This on top of all the other good placements Earth has gotten with pit in japan and 13th at GENISIS.

If characters like Ike, R.O.B., Tink, and FALCON!!! are considered high tier then the pits are definitely high tier as well.

 

[Macedonian]

I was under the impression R.O.B. Had to many bad MUs to be a high or too tier. Beep boop is one thing, but DK has the same thing with an arguably better recovery and I don't recall people saying his high tier or solo main viable.

Granted there are differences in DK and ROB but I think they share a similar place in the list as great secondaries but not solo mains due to bad MUs

 

[Jams.]

TBH, everything you say about applies equally to . I only bring this up because (correct me if I'm wrong) you're pretty adamant about the latter's potential. I'd personally argue the correct response in both cases is optimism tempered with skepticism. There are just too many contenders for high tier, so either it'll end up including half the cast or some candidates will slide into upper mid.

Is there a notable enough difference in viability between high tier candidates to warrant some drops into upper mid? From a purely results based standpoint, a ton of characters have proven they can reach top 8 or top 3 at majors. The characters placed into high tier in this thread feel like a revolving door where whoever has the most recent breakthrough in results gets the lowermost spots. There seems to be a greater difference when considering theory and MU spreads, but I'm not sure anyone is really qualified enough to reasonably evaluate all the high tier candidates. Personally, I'm in favour of a gigantic high tier until we can see a greater distinction between these characters.

 

[LancerStaff]

FWIW he went in a blind pick vs. Komorikiri and lost; he may have used him in other matches. Dude beat Ranai with his main though, so IMO the point stands anyway.

He used Fox? Last time I saw his Fox was like a year ago... He'd usually bust out Fox for Komorikikri or other particularly good Sonics, though I've seen him go Pit against Sonics since, well, like a year ago. I also don't think he's been using Corrin since he started using Pit again, so it's pretty likely that he was Pit the rest of the time.

 

[Yikarur]

Coming weekend is a pretty big UK national (Albion) with german and dutch attendance. Another european clash :D

 

[Nobie]

Is it so terrible if a mid-tier character wins a big tournament? Or do people prefer to believe that if your character does that well, it is utterly impossible for them to be mid-tier?

 

[ARISTOS]

Is there a notable enough difference in viability between high tier candidates to warrant some drops into upper mid? From a purely results based standpoint, a ton of characters have proven they can reach top 8 or top 3 at majors. The characters placed into high tier in this thread feel like a revolving door where whoever has the most recent breakthrough in results gets the lowermost spots. There seems to be a greater difference when considering theory and MU spreads, but I'm not sure anyone is really qualified enough to reasonably evaluate all the high tier candidates. Personally, I'm in favour of a gigantic high tier until we can see a greater distinction between these characters.

I would personally hold off on getting too comfortable with arrangements of tiers until the summer where summer Smash starts and top players meet together at EVO and CEO (do we call these supernationals?). Right now there are a lot of results everywhere but talent pools are dispersed out, when all the best players are under one roof we might be able to parse out who may have a longer presence in the meta.

I think there are 30-35 solid characters all of whom could do decently well on a regional stage- maybe I'm overestimating the worth of these characters but I think we've got a very solid meta atm.

 

[Djent]

Jams. and Nobie are touching on a very important question. Does the gap between high- and mid-tier to signify a large difference in viability? Does "mid-tier" have to mean "somewhat viable?" It has in the past because the power gap between the best and worst characters was so large. But I'm not sure that's some intrinsic feature; it just worked out that way. This is why I like the letter system (with +/- distinctions); it bypasses this secondary issue and focuses on viability only.

 

[HoSmash4]

Coming weekend is a pretty big UK national (Albion) with german and dutch attendance. Another european clash :D

Players to watch out for:
Ixis
C.R.Z
Plastic Poptart
Ho
Afro Smash
Merudi
S1
Yikarur
Long
Cyve
Khanage
Badr
Deon
Severe Calamari

no J miller. he is taking a break from smash (SFV grind)

 

[FallofBrawl]

Every competitive game has it's own definition of tiers. People in the smash community are too hung up on Brawl/Melee definitions and try to go off of that.

It's just this is the first time Nintendo's actually cared about balance and we don't know what to do with ourselves.

 

[Joey T.]

Every competitive game has it's own definition of tiers. People in the smash community are too hung up on Brawl/Melee definitions and try to go off of that.

It's just this is the first time Nintendo's actually cared about balance and we don't know what to do with ourselves.

So what should we do? Should we stick to the usual method to create a tier list or should we develop a new one which helps us to "deal" with the balance of the game? Should we stop the tier list at B- or C-? Should we put a numerical distance between the characters (I think we already do that...)?

Now reading the message again I realize it may sound harsh, know that it wasn't my intention if it does so and I just wanted to raise a point.

 

[FallofBrawl]

So what should we do? Should we stick to the usual method to create a tier list or should we develop a new one which helps us to "deal" with the balance of the game? Should we stop the tier list at B- or C-? Should we put a numerical distance between the characters (I think we already do that...)?

Now reading the message again I realize it may sound harsh, know that it wasn't my intention if it does so and I just wanted to raise a point.

Realize that the words midtier, low-tier, bottom-tier doesn't mean unplayable garbage. And viable characters can occupy these spaces too

 

[Yikarur]

HoSmash4 !

 

[Megamang]

Yikarur , you play Mii Brawler + Yoshi right?

What MUs do you prefer Brawler in?

 

[HoSmash4]

HoSmash4 !

They... exist?

my mistake

 

[KamikazePotato]

Pit/Dark Pit is just a weird case. They just have such little playrate that you

Mega Man gets results when ScAtt travels. Mega Man's period of no results just so happened to align with when ScAtt didn't go out of state. I highly doubt that's a coincidence.

If Mega Man still gets results when people play him, though, isn't that what matters? If Scatt is the only Mega Man to enter EVO, and he wins the tournament, does that mean that Mega Man is still supposedly mid tier because no one else plays him?

I think that people overall use total character playrate to justify tier placings too often. If a small group of players ever get consistently strong results for their character - not just "we didn't do poorly", I mean consistent Top 8 placings - everyone else still tends to write them off because the characters isn't widely played. I don't think that should matter so much with perceptions. People play Cloud a lot because he's extremely good, yes, but they also play him because he has one of the easiest, most straightforward playstyles in the game (yes I know MM isn't as good as Cloud - it's just an example). If Mega Man turns out to be a dominant force when his best players show up, he shouldn't be considered a lesser character just because a smaller number of people decided to dedicate themselves to a zoning playstyle.

 

[Jehtt]

If Mega Man still gets results when people play him, though, isn't that what matters? If Scatt is the only Mega Man to enter EVO, and he wins the tournament, does that mean that Mega Man is still supposedly mid tier because no one else plays him?

I think you misunderstood me. I was implying that Mega Man had a dead period because his best player wasn't entering anything. I agree with your post.

 

[Radical Larry]

I just love how everyone went crazy about MM placing high... And how people forget that characters like Link and Mii Brawler are placing very high in Europe.

Oh wait. Europe is full of casuals. We only care about Japan and North America when it comes to results 'cause they Esports. Hurr durr.

I always kept on pointing out Link's phenomenal results in Europe that would solidify him as middle tier, but apparently people don't want to admit that he and Mii Brawler are a lot better than they seem.

Isn't that low tier stigma yummy, you casuals?

We have people playing Link at a level that can get him into top 8s and 16s in nationals and majors in Europe, America and other places, but people are just ignoring him because they WANT him to be a low tier and don't want to admit he's actually viable.

 

[Megamang]

There isn't some ControlO corp brainwashing people into casting aside low tiers. There is just reasonable evidence that many characters are better than Link. Evidence often cited by the Links who are getting those results.


He has a place now, with needles not destroying him for free in pools.

 

[Trifroze]

I think it's very possible for mid tiers / characters in the middle of the overall power spectrum to win world-scale large tournaments given a dedicated enough player along with some match up inexperience from the opponents. Salem did win 2013 Apex Brawl with a character that was considered underwhelming in the grand scheme of things.

I also think there are many high tiers that would be considered mid tier and many mid tiers that would be considered high tier if only one specific player was removed or given to them. Top tiers are top for actually solid reasons as are low and bottom ones low and bottom.

 

[C0rvus]

Hey guys! PSA: "Low Tier" =/= "Unviable"
They are different things. We need to clearly define the term viable, because it only takes one person using it wrong for blanket statements like "Oh man! Link gets top 8 in foreign nationals! What IDIOTS would label him unviable?!" from happening.

EVERY character gets some sort of results. All of them. Saying "muh top 16s" doesn't mean your character cannot possibly be considered bad or low tier. Either we make clear delineations on what specific terms mean for this game, or we stop using them. Because it helps nobody.

 

[Radical Larry]

There isn't some ControlO corp brainwashing people into casting aside low tiers. There is just reasonable evidence that many characters are better than Link. Evidence often cited by the Links who are getting those results.


He has a place now, with needles not destroying him for free in pools.

Well he's more of a middle tier character than he is a low tier; there's too much evidence suggesting so. And even then I can admit there are a lot of characters better than him in many ways, but he's not that extremely bad to be called a low tier. I mean, I could even state that he might be around the 27th to 31st place in the tier list as of now, because honestly, I can't even see him behind Roy anymore.

I think it's very possible for mid tiers / characters in the middle of the overall power spectrum to win world-scale large tournaments given a dedicated enough player along with some match up inexperience from the opponents. Salem did win 2013 Apex Brawl with a character that was considered underwhelming in the grand scheme of things.

I also think there are many high tiers that would be considered mid tier and many mid tiers that would be considered high tier if only one specific player was removed or given to them. Top tiers are top for actually solid reasons as are low and bottom ones low and bottom.

Cloud and Samus come into mind respectively on the second paragraph.

 

[Das Koopa]

Cloud and Samus come into mind respectively on the second paragraph.

No, Cloud would most certainly still be considered high or top tier if either Tweek or Mew2King dropped him for whatever reason.