Official 4BR Tier List v1.0 - Competitive Impressions

[sedrf]

Most characters usually like grabs

 

[Megamang]

Yea, but with some characters (yoshi...) you can land a bunch of grabs and not really make too much progress, if your opponent chooses the right escape options to your coverage options....

Or vs some characters you just die. Bowser is one of the latter. And if he isn't landing grabs he is trying, his game is probably failing pretty hard IMO. I mean, yea this basically applies to everyone, but Bowser makes it really evident. Fundamentals heavy?

 

[Peppermint1201]

The problem with Bowser is that despite his impressive grab game his disadvantage is still some of the worst in the game. As Greward mentioned a few pages back, the utility of Bowser's aerials in disadvantage is actually comparable to Little Mac's. Combine this with his weight and size and Bowser's poor matchups pre-patch are still almost as bad post-patch, even if more neutral/advantageous matchups have been improved.

 

[Megamang]

Yea, but with some characters (yoshi...) you can land a bunch of grabs and not really make too much progress, if your opponent chooses the right escape options to your coverage options....

Or vs some characters you just die. Bowser is one of the latter. And if he isn't landing grabs he is trying, his game is probably failing pretty hard IMO. I mean, yea this basically applies to everyone, but Bowser makes it really evident. Fundamentals heavy?

 

[Y2Kay]

The problem with Bowser is that despite his impressive grab game his disadvantage is still some of the worst in the game. As Greward mentioned a few pages back, the utility of Bowser's aerials in disadvantage is actually comparable to Little Mac's. Combine this with his weight and size and Bowser's poor matchups pre-patch are still almost as bad post-patch, even if more neutral/advantageous matchups have been improved.

Why would Bowser's weight affect his disadvantage negatively? His size would be a problem, but living longer could never really hurt. And all of Bowser's aerials pack a decent punch, I think comparing them is slightly hyperbolic.

Yea, but with some characters (yoshi...) you can land a bunch of grabs and not really make too much progress, if your opponent chooses the right escape options to your coverage options....

Or vs some characters you just die. Bowser is one of the latter. And if he isn't landing grabs he is trying, his game is probably failing pretty hard IMO. I mean, yea this basically applies to everyone, but Bowser makes it really evident. Fundamentals heavy?

dejavu.......

 

[Nobie]

Re: Mewtwo vs. Ike

I think the match possibly leans in Ike's favor, somewhere between 50:50 to 60:40 Ike.

The main reasons are as follows. Ike is a hard character to bait and punish because his key moves have quick recoveries and he outranges Mewtwo so in order to fight him properly you need to take advantage of Mewtwo's quicker attacks and basically strike Ike while he's in startup using fair, dtilt, etc. The problem is that...you're in Ike's range and that sword will clobber you if you make a mistake. If you're going back and forth, the advantage starts to go to Ike. On top of that, Ike's down throw combos are especially dangerous for Mewtwo because they're easy to connect and he dies early. The last big issue is that Ike's weight and fall speed make up throw impractical (it doesn't start KOing until late 150%+ usually), and at that point you're having to contend with Rage Ike, who compounds all of the issues I mentioned.

 

[Y2Kay]

It's a particular stressful matchup, but I feel like Mewtwo's edguarding is what makes the matchup very close to me.

Whatever it's worth, Mew2King's four day old Mewtwo took ryo to last hit last stock in tournament.

 

[Cereal Bawks]

Ike's down throw combos

Just wanted to make a quick correction: It's Ike's up throw that's dangerous, not down throw. Dthrow doesn't have a lot of follow ups at mid-high percents.

 

[Fox Is Openly Deceptive]

Esam released the final video in his pikachu matchup list

In regards to this, I wasn't going to say anything but "[Link's] D-throw to Uair doesn't work on Pikachu" - actually yes it does. It totally does. I think a lot of people don't quite understand how Link's D-throw follow-ups work. It's very character specific, ranging from not working at all to having everything work. http://smashboards.com/threads/link...-found-in-the-op.379659/page-35#post-20457552
So just because it doesn't work on X character, or just because the Link you're used to versing is uninformed and/or is not using the A-stick, that doesn't mean it doesn't work period.
And assuming you're using a character that D-throw to FH U-air actually works on, in regards to mixing up DI to avoid Uair, unless the Link has to choose between jumping immediately or doing a brief dash forwards before going for the FH Uair (which will be necessary for some characters), it's not at all difficult (even for me) to react to their DI during the lag of the d-throw followed by the 7 jump-squat frames. Inputting the Jump and A-stick Up can be done mechanically without giving it any thought, which frees you up to simply point the joystick in the right direction.
Granted, I think Pikachu beats Link, perhaps 60-40, but I just wanted to clear that up because it bothers me along with a whole list of other things.

 

[Browny]

Ok ok, but it's not a full sword length of disjoint. That is what I was referring to. It's not like when Mewtwo uses Dtilt or Ftilt his whole tail is disjointed. That is what I meant. Though he has the range, of course a real disjointed hitbox can still counteract this. That is what I was referring to.

To be accurate, it is still quite large though and one of the biggest in the game.

Spoiler

The black box in the first picture shows how much of his tail is intangible (ie; disjointed) and the second picture shows a similar story, you cant hurt his tail. You would be surprised by how much Marth and other sword fighters extend their own hurtbox during attacks. That length of disjoint is significant and for the record, is a larger disjoint than Marths sword although this was prior to marths slight range buff. I would imagine the disjoint on mewtwos tail and marts sword is almost identical now, in the past I could out-disjoint every single one of marths attacks except uair and fsmash.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Ike vs Mewtwo I feel is 55:45

The fact that Ike's weight negates some amount of Mewtwo's "cannon" aspect, and the fact Ike's everything kills emphasizes Mewtwo's "glass" aspect adds up in the long run.

I also think Uthrow -> Fair is still comboing during %s when its going to flat out kill Mewtwo, which is a pretty major issue. Very volatile match up though. Once Mewtwo gets in Ike is just eating a bunch of damage.

 

[HeavyLobster]

Bowser's main issue in disadvantage is that basically all of his landing options are insanely laggy. I get that that's supposed to be an area of weakness for him, but 40 frames of landing lag on Bair is excessive no matter how you slice it. Dair also has 40 frames of endlag, which is also too much, though it still ought to be pretty laggy, as even the better stall n' fall aerials have around 30 frames of landing lag, and Bowser's landing options should be generally poor, though you could at least take a couple of frames off of everything and still have him be pretty vulnerable here.

 

[Big-Cat]

Bowser's not going to do BAir outside of edgeguarding, showtime followup, and AC BAir. DAir being unsafe as it is makes sense. You want a divekick that powerful to be that safe?

 

[juddy96]

Rise 2016

1) Saiki
2) S2H
3) Stroder
4) JK
5) SS
5) AirVault
7) Vash
7) CRUP!!!

Summary of Saturday's tournaments (and ones that carried into today from Saturday)

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1mdG_NHaenY6vhnGZ-9UH3GX9UbTHzPX2ZBzpm1LM7nM/edit?usp=sharing

 

[sedrf]

And the regional/major win for bayonetta still alludes her.

 

[HeavyLobster]

Bowser's not going to do BAir outside of edgeguarding, showtime followup, and AC BAir. DAir being unsafe as it is makes sense. You want a divekick that powerful to be that safe?

Dair should still be unsafe, just ideally I'd make it like 2-4 frames less unsafe, so it's still punishable, but perhaps not quite as punishable. Bowser should generally have risky landing options, but you could afford to make them slightly less laggy without really making them safe.

 

[TimidKitsune129]

I haven't seen anyone post the results for ConComics earlier today, but pardon if it was already posted.

ConComics 2016 (239 entrants)

1) Ally
2) Hyuga
3) Sergy
4) Regi
5) Kub4444
5)Pollo
7)Kevin21
7)FuerzaDON

https://smash.gg/tournament/concomics-2016/brackets/10981/3656/11810

 

[ぱみゅ]

Since I didn't see it posted.

ConComics Guadalajara
1. Ally
2. Hyuga
3. Sergy
4. Regi ?
5. Kub4444
5. D.Pollo
7. Kevin21
7. FuerzaDON
9. Andy
9. SBGera
9. Brav ?
9. ZERC
13. Laag ?
13. Eeveecario
13. Ricardo Ovalles
13. Cardy

I didn't watch the stream (I had my own tournament to attend) and I am not too sure of character usage, but I'll try to fill it later.

 

[FullMoon]

Man Greninja got a lot of good results this weekend.

 

[Luco]

juddy96 We don't update our SB thread anymore but if you're interested in Aus scene results (as I notice Ireland and Chile in there ) for your excel list we update this place pretty regularly: http://qldsmash.com/Results

It includes the data for Stacked! This last weekend as well as other series. You're also able to check individual player performance which is pretty neat.

Marth is beginning to pull in results more and more. It's... Nice.

 

[Kofu]

The problem with Bowser is that despite his impressive grab game his disadvantage is still some of the worst in the game. As Greward mentioned a few pages back, the utility of Bowser's aerials in disadvantage is actually comparable to Little Mac's. Combine this with his weight and size and Bowser's poor matchups pre-patch are still almost as bad post-patch, even if more neutral/advantageous matchups have been improved.

Difference between Mac's and Bowser's aerials is that Bowser's are actually scary.

Mac has his specials to help him out of disadvantage although it really sucks if they miss (and Slip Counter can be hilariously fooled). Bowser at least can b-reverse/wavebounce Fire Breath to space a little, and no one wants to eat a Bowser Bomb.

 

[juddy96]

juddy96 We don't update our SB thread anymore but if you're interested in Aus scene results (as I notice Ireland and Chile in there ) for your excel list we update this place pretty regularly: http://qldsmash.com/Results

It includes the data for Stacked! This last weekend as well as other series. You're also able to check individual player performance which is pretty neat.

Marth is beginning to pull in results more and more. It's... Nice.

Yup, I know very much of that site. But Stacked was on the 17th, and as far as I know there were no AUS tourney on the 16th (which is what that sheet tracks)

 

[Yonder]

I haven't seen anyone post the results for ConComics earlier today, but pardon if it already was posted.

ConComics 2016 (239 entrants)

1) Ally
2) Hyuga
3) Sergy
4) Regi
5) Kub4444
5)Pollo
7)Kevin21
7)FuerzaDON

https://smash.gg/tournament/concomics-2016/brackets/10981/3656/11810

That is one heck of a beautiful top 8. No top tiers aside from Mario and Cloud. Both Bowsers AND a Shulk?

What a time to be alive in the diversity of the current Smash 4 metagame. When 95% of the roster is getting some sort of results, it's hard to pick out your bottom tier. Maybe there should be just a low tier only then at this rate.

Going to request some Palutena results next, I want to see her in action as my thoughts about her dwindle.

 

[ぱみゅ]

Jiglypuff is working so hard on occupying that bottom tier spot tho.
And despite the recent buffs, Zelda isn't much better than she was before 1.1.5.

 

[bc1910]

Greninja players get **** for saying they "win all their MUs" (which isn't even true, we just don't think we lose many) but looking at this thread I don't know why people don't say the same about Ike players. Seems like every MU in the game is 55:45 Ike.

Anyway, Greninja's results were great this weekend. I'm happy he finally won something as well. Big congratulations to Elexaio.

 

[Tizio Random]

I think that if a bottom tier has to be made it would have. Roy lacks any result whatsoever (even Zelda and Jiggs have better reaults) and these two are just flawed characters. Other candidates could be but I think they have good qualities to keep them out of bottom tier.

 

[juddy96]

Beautiful results for Marth this weekend.

Mr. E 3rd at Collision
Pugwest 4th and False 5th (dual with Sheik) at Super Smash on the Hill
AirVault 5th at Rise

Also Sheik is back to her old tricks, 3 of the 7 tournaments this weekend that featured 100 or more entrants were won by a Sheik.

 

[Deleted member]

I think that if a bottom tier has to be made it would have. Roy lacks any result whatsoever (even Zelda and Jiggs have better reaults) and these two are just flawed characters. Other candidates could be but I think they have good qualities to keep them out of bottom tier.

If we're actually going to be discussing Falco of all characters as a potential bottom tier, you know this thread is scraping the bottom of the barrel.

Also, even if I don't think myself that Roy is a that good of a character, he most definitely has results. He does lack them on a national level, but they are indeed still there.

 

[Bowserboy3]

To be accurate, it is still quite large though and one of the biggest in the game.

Spoiler

The black box in the first picture shows how much of his tail is intangible (ie; disjointed) and the second picture shows a similar story, you cant hurt his tail. You would be surprised by how much Marth and other sword fighters extend their own hurtbox during attacks. That length of disjoint is significant and for the record, is a larger disjoint than Marths sword although this was prior to marths slight range buff. I would imagine the disjoint on mewtwos tail and marts sword is almost identical now, in the past I could out-disjoint every single one of marths attacks except uair and fsmash.

Interesting. I knew there was a bit, but not quite like that.

However, I will just put this out there for anyone who doesn't know. Remember this; all of Marth's moves have hitboxes on his arm. At first, you might think "oh, this extends his hurtbox by a fair amount". However, all of Marth's arm is intangible during these moves. Here are some examples (using Lucina's images, but both Marth and Lucina's moves are exactly the same).

Spoiler: Examples: Fair, Ftilt and Fsmash.

The blue bubbles are the intangible parts of the move. Essentially, their arms have their standard hurtbox, which is protected by an intangible bubble or two, with a hitbox attached also. What this means is that while their arms can clank with moves, they cannot be harmed in any way, because they are intangible (think Mario/G&W Up Smash). So while their hurtbox is extending out slightly, the part that extends can't be hurt. You could even look at it that their disjoint is their sword and their arm, considering their arm can damage and is at safety during their moves.

While Mewtwo could for example hit their arms with his tail, for him to harm them, he'd have to strike their body, at which point Mewtwo is well within range to be hurt himself.

 

[Browny]

I never knew that, but it doesnt appear on dtilt?

I find that interesting since when I was doing those disjoint comparisons I tested dtilt primarily because of how easy it is to stand still while doing it, it would appear the one move I tested is the one normal attack that doesnt have those intangible hitbubbles :/

 

[Bowserboy3]

I never knew that, but it doesnt appear on dtilt?

I find that interesting since when I was doing those disjoint comparisons I tested dtilt primarily because of how easy it is to stand still while doing it, it would appear the one move I tested is the one normal attack that doesnt have those intangible hitbubbles :/

In fact, the only moves that lack these intangibility bubbles are Shield Breaker, Dtilt and Usmash. Even the ledge attacks and getup attacks etc have these intangibility bubbles.

To be fair though, Shield Breaker (fully charged) and Up Smash are two of the longest reaching moves in their moveset, so I can see why the intangibility bubbles are not there (IIRC, Up Smash outranges Cloud's Dair. You can hit Cloud with Up Smash before his Dair can touch you).

Forward Tilt would be a good move to be test with. You can set the C-Stick to attack to reliably Ftilt without moving. However, if you were to do this, don't spam/buffer constant Ftilts, as Marth and Lucina take a step forward for each buffered Ftilt. Utilt for Marth only also shares this trait. It could skew results a bit.

Off topic, I find that small step Marth does when doing a buffered Ftilt very handy. It's a lot easier to space it now. If you swing an Ftilt and just miss the opponent, the step can often allow you to hit a tipper on your next swing. This is only made better by it's recent tipper increase and the FAF decrease. I love this Ftilt.

 

[Nintenpro]

Elexiao beat Griffith 3-2 for the first time

Actually he already beat Griffith (and pre-patch Sheik !).

Wow I just looked at the bracket of that French tournament and Elexiao did one hell of a Losers run through it.

Elexiao loves to do that :D He does the same at Cannes Winter Clash 2016 (loosing early to Scarhi and then beating everybody in looser bracket).

This tournament had a lot of upsets (Yoren beating Phogos and me beating Elexiao in winner). Plus the fact that the bracket seeding was meh, we got Phogos vs Elexiao for the 9th place (respectevly 1st and 3rd on the french PR).

 

[Tizio Random]

If we're actually going to be discussing Falco of all characters as a potential bottom tier, you know this thread is scraping the bottom of the barrel.

Also, even if I don't think myself that Roy is a that good of a character, he most definitely has results. He does lack them on a national level, but they are indeed still there.

Do you think that Zelda and Jigglypuff are on a tier on their own? This is not a rethoric question, I genuinely want to know Your opinion.
Also, I don't think Falco is bad at all, in fact I don't think anyone is really bad, but I see him as a bottom 10 character, therefore very close to bottom tier.

 

[Deleted member]

Do you think that Zelda and Jigglypuff are on a tier on their own? This is not a rethoric question, I genuinely want to know Your opinion.
Also, I don't think Falco is bad at all, in fact I don't think anyone is really bad, but I see him as a bottom 10 character, therefore very close to bottom tier.

No. I don't.

Nobody is Melee Kirby/Brawl Ganondorf levels of almost-irredeemable in this game, and the gaps between viability of characters is much closer than it was in previous Smash titles.

I'm not going to go the "Every character is viable" route because that's obviously not true, but I'm just putting that out there since the former point about viability of characters in this game has been better said in the past by others in this thread. The amount of diversity we see at tournaments nowadays even with the "supposed" dominance of Bayonetta is actually amazing.

I don't like discussing tier placements in a thread like this anyway, especially since I'm filthy mid-level trash and I'm not anywhere near as qualified to measure characters' worth in the meta as the people who thoroughly study this game or are dedicated to the characters themselves. While I myself have my own personal feelings on some characters here and there, I don't like jumping the gun particularly when it comes to characters I don't even play.

Zelda and Jiggs are not good characters at all, but the concept of them being in a tier of their own just feels wrong to me. That's what I was trying to say but I guess it just devolved into a ramble lol

 

[bc1910]

This tournament had a lot of upsets (Yoren beating Phogos and me beating Elexiao in winner). Plus the fact that the bracket seeding was meh, we got Phogos vs Elexiao for the 9th place (respectevly 1st and 3rd on the french PR).

So Greninja players are now PR'd 3rd in both France and the Netherlands. That's a really strong European presence. iStudy might be 2nd actually but I think S1-14 is higher now.

I expect Eddy is PR'd top 20 in Germany too.

 

[Y2Kay]

I know people love to say Greninja's meta is being pushed in japan, but that cliche is somewhat outdated. Europe is and has been putting out the most work with the frog.

 

[Greward]

Bowser's disadvantage state could be strongly helped by either or both:

bigger hitbox below bowser on aerial side B (it's hella hard to grab someone with it when landing, besides F17 startup isn't helping)
less landing lag on upB - 50 frames is EXCESSIVE, having a potential upB mixup to land would help

4 frames less landing lag on bair wouldn't be useful at all tbh

Bowser disadvantage state atm is basically DIing towards outside the stage to fast fall + airdodge to go to the ledge. He has good out of ledge options compared to DK so that's pretty much it.

 

[DunnoBro]

I know people love to say Greninja's meta is being pushed in japan, but that cliche is somewhat outdated. Europe is and has been putting out the most work with the frog.

TBH for a long time whenever people wanted to say X was good they'd point to the mysterious east and somehow that was enough of an explanation

I kept seeing people point to Yoshi, Greninja, Duck hunt etc getting top 16 in 100-man tourneys as proof of viability when ganons and shulks weren't too far away in placing either

 

[bc1910]

TBH for a long time whenever people wanted to say X was good they'd point to the mysterious east and somehow that was enough of an explanation

I kept seeing people point to Yoshi, Greninja, Duck hunt etc getting top 16 in 100-man tourneys as proof of viability when ganons and shulks weren't too far away in placing either

Just the man I was looking for.

Is Pika vs Duck Hunt really 7:3, as ESAM says?

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Greninja players get **** for saying they "win all their MUs" (which isn't even true, we just don't think we lose many) but looking at this thread I don't know why people don't say the same about Ike players. Seems like every MU in the game is 55:45 Ike.

Eh.

We lose to Sheik, Diddy, ZSS, MK, Fox all in the 40-60 range most likely, wouldn't be surprised if Bayo wasn't there as well. And then Cloud and Mario are 45-55.

Meaning the top/high tiers we go even or beat are Ryu, Pika, Sonic, Village, Ness, Rosa.

Losing 8, even or winning 6 in that range ain't exactly claiming we win all of the important MUs. If you think Corrin and Mewtwo are high tier (no way Corrin is, Mewtwo I don't think has the results yet at the major level but will probably end up there given enough time) the ratio becomes 8 Losing:8 Even/Winning

We're still saying we lose more than we win with for the important MUs.