Official 4BR Tier List v1.0 - Competitive Impressions

[NairWizard]

After testing the changes, I gotta say, Sheik's still good, but won't be clear #1 any more, maybe, if as I predict she will lose the 50/50 on some characters. She's got too many good tools to be like a mid tier or something, though, and if the lab rats for this character come up with new kill confirms for her, she could still be top tier. If the kill confirms don't work or aren't consistent on some characters then she will have numerous bad/difficult/even matchups, which is objectively speaking a good thing, though it makes her design incredibly frustrating to play against/watch because her gameplay becomes even more Needle-heavy.

ZSS is worse, but not much. The damage nerfs on n-air do open up a few new combo tricks for her, while up-air and d-throw nerfs make it harder for her to net the kill in some high-% situations, but overall I don't think her gameplan is that much different or less effective. What strikes me is that 4 active frames off of grab opens her up to some more punishments, but if you anticipated the grab anyway you probably rolled behind her.

Nice to see Samus, Zelda, and Charizard getting love. Well deserved buffs, not enough to make them viable though.

Mewtwo's run speed buff is being dramatically overhyped. So he runs faster (and dies 2-3% later lol as if that's even worth mentioning). So what? Run is the most commital form of movement by a fair margin, even though it's good on Sonic for various reasons. He was already a good character before this patch.

MK was fine even without the death combo, people just weren't exploring other followups too well. He'll probably be a comfortable high tier and then people will finally realize that he's not so linear in neutral after all. I mean, he didn't need the death combo to fare well against Greninja, what makes you think he'll need it to fare well against most other solid characters? Some of his worst MUs became easier with the patch, too, so he's not totally lost here.

Cloud is the clear winner of the patch, holy cow. It seems to me that he doesn't have any matchup worse than +1 in his favor now (meaning no evens or losing matchups). The Bayo matchup may be even, and Fox/Diddy is at best slight disadvantage for them, but that's literally it out of the entire cast, I'm pretty sure (inb4 fringe "Mewtwo beats him guys!"). Finishing Touch nerf doesn't matter for singles, up-air is a mixed bag, and Limit Cross Slash received a tiny slap on the wrist. Definitely looking to main this guy from here on out, solid contender for #1.

 

[HFlash]

So about MK

This on the Dunk Hunt stage can be kinda ridiculous.

 

[FSLink]

Mewtwo's run speed buff is being dramatically overhyped. So he runs faster (and dies 2-3% later lol as if that's even worth mentioning). So what? Run is the most commital form of movement by a fair margin, even though it's good on Sonic for various reasons. He was already a good character before this patch.

It makes running behind uncharged Shadow Ball more viable with a faster run speed. I've gotten dash attacks, grabs, and fairs depending on how the opponents acts a bit easier now thanks to the run speed buff.

 

[Mr. Johan]

So about MK

Say goodbye to the stairway, and hello to the runway.

 

[ARGHETH]

The ground speed nerfs are true at least for the run speed anyways. They just aren't that big. Ike runs slightly faster now. Who did she have a similar walk speed to?

Used to have the same walk speed as M2 and Charizard (1.2).

 

[FallofBrawl]

Sheiks f throw is the new 50/50 guys, she's still the best.

 

[predator_21476]

Used to have the same walk speed as M2 and Charizard (1.2).

From what I can tell it is slower compared to Charizard now , not by much though. I can't see this affecting her viability much at all. The speed nerfs seem to small to really affect much.

 

[RonNewcomb]

Personally I think Cloud got hit pretty hard by the Limit Break nerf. Also Up Air is weaker and doesnt kill as early as it used to. Cloud is still good but he did get slapped from this patch

I think the uair nerf was the harder. That's his main damage racking tool. As many times as he lands that in match, losing 1% each time adds up to having to win neutral and landtrap at least one more time.

Limit charge nerf also nerfs his already meh recovery.

 

[Aife]

From what I can tell it is slower compared to Charizard now , not by much though. I can't see this affecting her viability much at all. The speed nerfs seem to small to really affect much.

Viability isn't really the issue for me honestly. Notice how i didn't comment on any of the damage nerfs she got (which are quite wide spread at the least).
Its less about it affecting her meta and more about me just being annoyed that its slower, LOL. It was one of the most jarring things when switching between my main and secondary.
I'll live though, it's just an annoyance.

 

[predator_21476]

Viability isn't really the issue for me honestly. Notice how i didn't comment on any of the damage nerfs she got (which are quite wide spread at the least).
Its less about it affecting her meta and more about me just being annoyed that its slower, LOL. It was one of the most jarring things when switching between my main and secondary.
I'll live though, it's just an annoyance.

The difference is only really noticeable on a side by side comparison. I can't really see it changing how you would adjust to the character. Other than a placebo because you know the character is slower.

 

[TTTTTsd]

I think the uair nerf was the harder. That's his main damage racking tool. As many times as he lands that in match, losing 1% each time adds up to having to win neutral and landtrap at least one more time.

Limit charge nerf also nerfs his already meh recovery.

I can't believe people even consider this a big deal.

Look at how the other best characters in the game fared. Also winning neutral with Cloud isn't really that hard lol.

It is, to me, at most a slap on the wrist.

 

[Dre89]

This list is severely underrating DK. The character has great CQC with his long disjoints on a lot of his moves, great frame data, and the fact that you have to respect his grab due to how much he gets out of them. His issue has never been his neutral/advantage, but rather his disadvantage (easy to combo, no landing options, bad recovery, etc).

DK's neutral is subpar because he doesn't have a dashgrab. Pure melee characters need to have a good dashgrab or command grab otherwise they can't really punish defensive shielding.

He's doesn't have any particularly fast OOS options or a good standing grab so dash-shield isn't a great option either.

He can punish commitments with attacks or force reactions with his movement but really every character can do that and there's nothing about his kit that makes him exceptionally good at it compared to most other characters.

 

[Pancracio17]

Yeah cloud fared pretty well, uair no longer being safe on shield is somewhat big? Limit break charging for 1 more seccond could be pretty big for characaters that can pressure well. But all in all, cloud went unsacthed compared to everyone else.

Except for rosa who went untouched, but he wins the matchup anyway.

 

[LancerStaff]

Yep, good patch. Seems like they nerfed the wrong DLC swordsman though. Cloud was already the most used character...

Don't think he's that good so w/e.

 

[Megamang]

Dre89 I'd say huge normals with intangible limbs and really solid frame data (dtilt and utilt back hitbox specifically) make him above average in neutral. Partly offset with a giant hurtbox, of course.


Like so many things in this game, its really MU dependent. His neutral feels great in many MUs, but in his tough ones it feels like it falls short. Neutral itself is a gamestate that is hard to 'rank', since the efficacy of your tools is directly tied to the properties of your opponent.

 

[Shaya]

On further inspection, Zero Suit sucks~

This patch has really killed the top-tieredededness of Sheik and Zero Suit, it seems (maybe not on either end, we'll see).
Which is fine.
But what the flying **** about only wrist slapping Cloud?

 

[sedrf]

apparnetly anti still thinks sheik is the besst.
speaking of sheik: weight 84>81

 

[NairWizard]

On further inspection, Zero Suit sucks~

This patch has really killed the top-tieredededness of Sheik and Zero Suit, it seems (maybe not on either end, we'll see).
Which is fine.
But what the flying **** about only wrist slapping Cloud?

Relax, Cloud's day is coming.

They always take a while to patch out obscene things (look at how long MK's ladder was in, or Luigi). Cloud's almost clearly the most problematic character this game's had in a long time. They'll get to it. Faith in dev team is at an all-time high!

Meanwhile Shaya, embrace your inner broken swordsman (Marf days?).

Also Sheik may still be the best if new confirms are found/old confirms still work on important characters.

 

[Trifroze]

apparnetly anti still thinks sheik is the besst.
speaking of sheik: weight 84>81

Hence me thinking ZSS' smashes were stronger, I was testing them on Sheik.

 

[Megamang]

Agreed that it is odd that Cloud didn't get the same top tier treatment that the others got. Maybe they see leaving Cloud as-is is a good way to nerf rosalina =P


More seriously, I am way less concerned about the state of Cloud and Bayonetta than I was a day ago. Why? Because, the dev team is actually still making patches! This means balance can continue to be improved upon.

Also, after calling out Zero's tweets earlier, I wanted to point out that Void is posting that he thinks new kill confirms might be available for shiek, and is already in the lab instead of ********. This is a great attitude, and I'm glad to see the newer faces to the scene have strong positive thoughts. Zero's video on why complaining sucks is relevant here, maybe he should check it out.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

ive been tagged, who tagged me

 

[FallofBrawl]

Well Bayonetta has her heel slide 2 end lag increased as well as witch time.

Nerfs to Cloud, Sheik, ZSS too.

And thus the golden gate of the upper echelon characters have cracked open.

 

[UberMadman]

So what was that about Mario not being a top tier?

 

[Shaya]

On the point of Corrin's nerfs.
I'll say there was fair merit to it...
At least Cloud has reasons to move towards his opponent (and applies pressure through his rush down).
Corrin on the other hand did not, ever.
Her entire kit is functional dashing and jumping away from her opponent; throwing out relatively safe stupidly huge and powerful moves; which from greater range than Shulk on 10ish frame start ups can kill you from 80%, and can punish messing up (after finally getting close to you) with stocks at absurdly low percent.
This was honestly an abusive ("cancer" wouldn't be a stretch) game plan.
She's the only sword fighter who had close to no merit whatsoever in engaging her opponents.
And that's silly.
Take it from a sword fighter person~

Corrin....has a silly design. Thank goodness they deduced her near 0 risk-all reward play style needed to be harder to pull off.

Chances are before (and still), if your character had issues with sword characters, Corrin was going to be close to your hardest match up in the game.

 

[Megamang]

So what was that about Mario not being a top tier?

Even as his other MUs get better, I can't see him doing to well with an unnerfed Rosalina and a still very strong Cloud in the meta. Perhaps he is the top of high tier, or perhaps we have different definitions of top tier, but I still see a gap between Cloud/Rosa/Shiek/Bayonetta ... Mario. He doesn't belong up there. He is damn close, and we will see in the future, but I don't think he can claim it unless the others fall a little more.

Or his meta changes and he gets a nice kill confirm! Patch d-tilt ->usmash to be a thing pls.

EDIT: Based on what Shaya just said, I'd imagine optimal corrin is a huge roadblock for Mario too. He doesn't like swords, he doesn't like hitboxes that are safe and strong, and he especially doesn't like those things when they get stronger and stronger with rage. I guess cape makes the threat of stun confirms much less scary. so that might be his saving grace. But I still don't know what he would do against the wall of Corrin, especially when she is going to be killing him 'early' with rage throws if he can't manage to seal the stock.

Plus, nothing is more frustrating than going for an extended juggle, just to have Corrin dair you and you have taken more damage than the corrin!

 

[CHIEf]

Mario's really suffers from a lack in speed and range.

I'll play Falco against Marios any day because I'm comfortable up close. You can't be one of the best if you lack the speed and range to beat most characters up close.

 

[NairWizard]

nothing is more frustrating than going for an extended juggle, just to have Corrin dair you and you have taken more damage than the corrin!

nothing? Have you so quickly forgotten Corrin's old counter? lol

 

[ILOVESMASH]

A very big issue with corrin now is that he cannot kill nearly as well as he could prepatch due to DFS decreased hitstun and KB, Uair's reduced KB, and his lower overall Damage output. He already had a very hard time KOing pre patch since his main KO moves lost to any Lingering hitbox and now its almost impossible to score KOs with him. Really hope the developers compensate for these nerfs somehow in future patches.

 

[Fish&Herbs19]

/*Insert obligatory Mew2King complaint about Cloud nerfs, even though he is the least changed/nerfed top tier, here */
https://twitter.com/MVG_Mew2King/status/709993645663981568

 

[Megamang]

How does Mario lack speed? The speed at which he can put out hitboxes is rivaled only by like, shiek, and his horizontal airspeed is tied for 9th!

After looking at it, I didn't realize his other speeds were so mediocre. I guess he spends so much time in the air to offset some of that. Still, I don't think speed is his biggest issue, I think it is range and Cloud/Luma. I guess if he had more speed, he could more easily overcome those issues.

And he still beats Falco... right? Please? Its closer than it should be. Still, if it weren't for Cloud, he'd be in an amazing position in the meta with Shiek and ZSS nerfs. Unfortunately, cloud exists.

Im rambling because patch days are exciting, and also I love this keyboard a lot.

 

[UberMadman]

Twitter drama really doesn't belong in this thread. But everyone is allowed to vent after their main gets nerfed.

 

[Megamang]

It reflects poorly on smash that when our game finally gets lasting support, our top players are clearly so not used to an actually supported game that they complain about a 1% nerf on clearly, ridiculously STILL polarizing and excessively powerful moves.

In other games, that sort of ******** is relegated to the middle level players. Smash is still immature in this way, and its embarrassing to see. They are allowed to vent all they want, but its a public forum they are venting on so we can have opinions on it, we don't just pretend it isn't happening.

...

So, who are the biggest winners? Rosalina, Greninja, Mewtwo, Mario... Sonic?

 

[Aaron1997]

How does everyone here think about now? Is worst Match-up got destroyed and he does well vs and

 

[TTTTTsd]

It reflects poorly on smash that when our game finally gets lasting support, our top players are clearly so not used to an actually supported game that they complain about a 1% nerf on clearly, ridiculously STILL polarizing and excessively powerful moves.

In other games, that sort of ******** is relegated to the middle level players. Smash is still immature in this way, and its embarrassing to see. They are allowed to vent all they want, but its a public forum they are venting on so we can have opinions on it, we don't just pretend it isn't happening.

...

So, who are the biggest winners? Rosalina, Greninja, Mewtwo, Mario... Sonic?

Cloud by virtue of having his worst matchup nerfed fairly noticeably, I'd add to that list. Despite his little wrist slap, it hampers him so very little.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

It's moments like this where character loyalists are gonna succeed.

They're gonna stick with their characters and find just what they are still capable of.

This ******** about nerfs only hinders progress, when the old high tier characters are probably going to stay relevant.

Let's have another Diddy situation. Not a Luigi situation.

 

[Fatmanonice]

On further inspection, Zero Suit sucks~

This patch has really killed the top-tieredededness of Sheik and Zero Suit, it seems (maybe not on either end, we'll see).
Which is fine.
But what the flying **** about only wrist slapping Cloud?

Sheik and Zero Suit: Dominating tournaments for a year and a half.
Cloud: Only been genuinely scary for about a month.

Sheik and Zero Suit getting nerfs really opens doors for a lot of characters though.

 

[warionumbah2]

So about MK

That isn't a true combo.

 

[Luigi player]

These Sheik nerfs are huge. Couldn't really connect uair / fair after dthrow anymore on a cpu. Though I'm no total expert on them maybe there are still some ways to do it. Still, it's something and with the other changes and -3 weight it will have quite the impact.

Imo Sheik was kinda struggling a little bit lately to keep her #1 spot. Many characters showed they can win and sometimes there was just no Sheik "up there" in tourneys. Though the few top Sheik players still helped her stay the best and overall I guess Sheik is (was) still the most consistent so #1 was definitely warranted.

I'm really not sure how it is now, though.

Rosalina seems like a contender now with Sheik, MK, ZSS and Cloud weakened.
Who else is up there? Diddy Kong will become more relevant again I'm pretty sure.
All other characters will just have an easier time now probably. Kinda have my eyes now on Sonic and Greninja. Their worst MUs should be much better now and Greninjas buffs are kinda frightening...

Though I wouldn't rule out the possibility of new combos to be found for Sheik / MK / ZSS with their altered damages / angles. MK already has one (though not sure how true that really is, can't really imagine it working if you DI correctly). With MKs uair being easier to SDI there probably isn't too much he can do, though.

 

[Aife]

It reflects poorly on smash that when our game finally gets lasting support, our top players are clearly so not used to an actually supported game that they complain about a 1% nerf on clearly, ridiculously STILL polarizing and excessively powerful moves.

In other games, that sort of ******** is relegated to the middle level players. Smash is still immature in this way, and its embarrassing to see. They are allowed to vent all they want, but its a public forum they are venting on so we can have opinions on it, we don't just pretend it isn't happening.

...

So, who are the biggest winners? Rosalina, Greninja, Mewtwo, Mario... Sonic?

I don't particularly think picking at initial reactions to main nerfs is a vry mature thing either to be honest. I find that kind of reaction/action embarrassing, but maybe that's jus me shrug

Besides I find the second line to be pretty laughable at best. Patch notes and constant changes bring out the worst in people holy crap...
Or maybe I'm just cynical from too many years of MMOs.

 

[Shaya]

Sheik and Zero Suit: Dominating tournaments for a year and a half.
Cloud: Only been genuinely scary for about a month.

Sheik and Zero Suit getting nerfs really opens doors for a lot of characters though.

Cloud has completely eclipsed Mario as the most popular and successful tournament character across all levels of play almost immediately after his release.
And the gap is growing bigger by the month
From December on wards he was no.1 being near parity with Sheik/Mario, from January on wards is 25% over Mario who is still near parity with Sheik, and is over 30% ahead of Mario for February on wards (who is 20% ahead of Sheik).

I could only imagine the for glory data that is associated with him as well.
I would be shocked, truly truly truly shocked, if somehow Cloud was mimicking Little Mac's "perception bias where 80% of players are awful and always lose and the 20% are enough to make the entire world complain".

*smashboard ranking stuff