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Raziek

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If EVO is willing to base their ruleset on one TO and one commentator from the US, that's on them. They will obviously just get that one opinion and gamble on the biases of the person they ask.
While this is true, the problem is that this has become the accepted standard procedure.

I think we as an organization should be filling that role. I think we (as a collective group) are decidedly more qualified and representative than the opinions of two individuals.
 

#HBC | Red Ryu

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It happened with APEX and the metaknight ban as well.

It would have happened but APEX made it the norm to not ban him despite the overwhelming majority in favor of banning him. Now whenever someone does host Brawl these days, they ban him and Ice Climbers.

Sometimes diplomacy with power happens without real discussion of reasoning. :/
 

Zigsta

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If EVO is willing to base their ruleset on one TO and one commentator from the US, that's on them. They will obviously just get that one opinion and gamble on the biases of the person they ask.

Considering how the stock "debate" went down in that one Facebook group, I'm not expecting the American scene to recover. The people running the biggest events can always play the power card and people would still go with like 1 stock and items. All you can hope for is your local scene to stay sane through leading by example.
What exactly happened with this Facebook debate? I completely missed the boat on this.
 

Marc

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People pretty much ignored the poll results and didn't provide or address any arguments other than "we are doing fine with 2 stock so we see no reason to change". Like, you can play the power card all day, but then this isn't a debate and you are not considering that things could be better.
 

Gunla

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Nope, definitely not anymore. Probably one of the biggest changes in a game, and definitely the most drastic change from a singular patch. So much feels different about her and it's not even funny.

Things are going to shake up; Bayo will probably fight for 1st with Rosa, and Cloud, ZSS and Ryu will probably make up the rest of the Top 5. ZSS's changes are a mix of buffs/nerfs but they really don't change the character drastically. I guess Plasma Whip is... better? The rest is probably a mix of Sheik, Mario, Sonic, Diddy, Fox, and Pikachu (I've always thought he was overrated), with Villager and Ness probably rounding out the top/prime tiers (I consider Top 3 or so to be the Top, and anything from there to the top 12 or so to be Prime).

Meta Knight's (probably) back to being a high tier character; the change to Uair is really significant and it hurts him heavily. Those changes to Uair are probably some of the most impactful things I've ever seen from three little lines of changes. Jbandrew's dropping him, and I think Abadango might be as well. It really sucks; he's still a workable character, but much like Luigi, a few changes really have affected the character. At least Fair's better.

I'm absolutely ecstatic about the Greninja changes. Literally two of his worst qualities, the Bonk and his bad standing grab, were really touched up this patch. The other changes are fantastic as well, especially the new stuff we can do with dash attack and fair. I definitely think he's going to see results increasing (as the new Sheik changes mean that his worst MU is less of a hassle) and a healthy boost in reps.

Mewtwo is basically a high tier now, but that was kind of obvious already. The new mobility tools are hilarious and his weight got a nice adjustment.

Zelda's probably still low/bottom tier material but she's a bit better. Uair is really dangerous with rage and the damage/kb buffs will help her out.

Charizard's buffs are really something; I've already had respect for the character but I think he's definitely a bit better now. Maybe top of low?

I'd honestly call Samus a low-mid tier at this point. She has so many buffs (formatting it is not fun for the patch thread) and things work much better for her now, along with Dash Attack being a usable thing instead of whiff city.

Despite their nerfs, Cloud, Corrin and Bayo are still really good. I feel like a lot of the changes are really not huge changes and don't really affect where they stand that much.

That's just a few of my impressions of this patch so far.
 
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#HBC | Red Ryu

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I'm bias as a Zard main but I've always thought he was mid tier, lower end.

This will solidify it for him since the changes are a huge deal.

I'm gonna predict MK and people who pocketed sheik drop her. It won't be Luigi levels of drop but she is way worse now.
 

Marc

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I'm glad we released a tier list when we could rather than wait till all DLC was in. We'd have been completely blindsided by this arguably more drastic patch, lol.
 

NickRiddle

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I'm glad we released a tier list when we could rather than wait till all DLC was in. We'd have been completely blindsided by this arguably more drastic patch, lol.
Made that point on Twitter.
Got like 50 apologies because people were being assholes about us releasing the patch, "RIGHT BEFORE THE CONFIRMED FINAL PATCH OMG"
 

John12346

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I've been expressing this sentiment to a few people IRL, but I wanted to mention that I am extremely happy about this patch, and yes, it's primarily because of what happened to Sheik.

And it's not for the reason of being able to perform better in tournament play (although that is obviously a HUGE fringe benefit), but rather because, this is now the first OFFICIAL Smash game where every single character has at least one losing matchup to their name. Every single character has their own lineup of checks and counters in the matchup system. And every single character has their own discernible weaknesses -that isn't just being light, or being easily combo'd- that players can take advantage of.

In the previous Smash games, the highest level of the metagame was literally just "Be Isai Pick Pikachu, Pick Fox, Pick Meta Knight and all of your matchups will be covered." And while some of them (Melee) have done an excellent job to this day not progressing to that point, we saw others (Brawl) have their metagame completely degrade to the point where it was simply raining Metas and Knights. As someone who saw firsthand what MK managed to do to the Brawl community, I was extremely worried we were going to have a similar issue with Sheik, in part due to people flocking to her for her very attractive lack of losing matchups, and discernible lack of weaknesses outside of being light and easy to combo (and before you ask, no, I do not believe pre-patch Sheik was ban material, and I also agree she was the worst "best character" in a Smash game to date).

With the update of 1.1.5, though, that future has been all but thrown out the window. Of course, I have to offer my condolences to those who mained Sheik to this point... but I want to stress that the effect this update will have on competitive play as a whole will be huge, with a large swath of characters being able to jump into the realm of viability. Sure, the metagame might end up being a little high/top tier heavy, but remember, there are a LOT of characters within those two tiers.

When I imagine the potential of Smash 4's metagame now, I see a vivid rainbow of colors, where before, I just saw a ninja.

(Edit: Also, does anyone know how I can change that 'title' directly below my username? The one that says 'Brawl Backroom Member'? I've checked every option I could in the User Settings menus, but to no avail. Help?)
 
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#HBC | Red Ryu

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I've been expressing this sentiment to a few people IRL, but I wanted to mention that I am extremely happy about this patch, and yes, it's primarily because of what happened to Sheik.

And it's not for the reason of being able to perform better in tournament play (although that is obviously a HUGE fringe benefit), but rather because, this is now the first OFFICIAL Smash game where every single character has at least one losing matchup to their name. Every single character has their own lineup of checks and counters in the matchup system. And every single character has their own discernible weaknesses -that isn't just being light, or being easily combo'd- that players can take advantage of.

In the previous Smash games, the highest level of the metagame was literally just "Be Isai Pick Pikachu, Pick Fox, Pick Meta Knight and all of your matchups will be covered." And while some of them (Melee) have done an excellent job to this day not progressing to that point, we saw others (Brawl) have their metagame completely degrade to the point where it was simply raining Metas and Knights. As someone who saw firsthand what MK managed to do to the Brawl community, I was extremely worried we were going to have a similar issue with Sheik, in part to her lack of losing matchups, and a discernible lack of weaknesses outside of being light and easy to combo (and before you ask, no, I do not believe pre-patch Sheik was ban material, and I also agree she was the worst "best character" in a Smash game to date).

With the update of 1.1.5, though that future has been all but thrown in the toilet. Of course, I have to offer my condolences to those who mained Sheik to this point... but the effect this update will have on competitive play as a whole is huge, with a large swath of characters being able to jump into the realm of viability. Sure, the metagame might end up being a little high/top tier heavy, but remember, there are a LOT of characters in those two tiers.

When I imagine the potential of Smash 4's metagame, I see a vivid rainbow of colors, where before, I just saw a dumb ninja.

(Edit: Also, does anyone know how I can change that 'title' directly below my username? The one that says 'Brawl Backroom Member'? I've checked every option I could in the User Settings menus, but to no avail. Help?)
Some people have argued Bayonetta or Rosalina might fill in that no bad mu spot.

Too early to tell since Rosa' bad MUs are still there. Bayonetta is a lot of, can you truely not DI out of her stuff reliably or can you? Some people even think Bayonetta will ruin the game but honestly I think a lot of it is also that you gotta play a lot more slowly against her which is what people also hate.

Idk just playing devil's advocate, since I actually agree with almost everything you said here.
 

Myran

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What MU does she lose now? To my knowledge she should still be the best character in the game based off her frame data. Unless there's something I'm missing.
 

John12346

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What MU does she lose now? To my knowledge she should still be the best character in the game based off her frame data. Unless there's something I'm missing.
Without going too deep, I would have to guess the most obvious contender is Lucario, primarily because he's never going to die to her now. One of the biggest (not the only one) reasons he lost the MU so badly previously was largely in part to him losing his stocks around 100% to Dthrow Uair, which obviously prevented him from venturing into the more dangerous parts of his aura power. Now? He can just shield if he ever feels threatened about dying to something and he'll be sticking around for a really long time, presumably.

I would imagine that a lot of characters that were previously capable of avoiding Sheik edgeguards (Meta Knight, Bayonetta, Game and Watch?, etc.) are going to give her varying degrees of trouble too. As long as they remain shielding during dangerous mixup situations that are threatening stocks, the worst that's going to happen to them is that they'll take a little damage and then be offstage.

It might be somewhat shortsighted reasoning on my part, but I believe this is going to be the groundwork for a lot of anti-Sheik strategies. Living to insane percentages via generous usage of shield, and then letting rage do all the dirty work.

I would imagine mid-range characters like Marth are going to have a better time getting their spacing game going due to the Needle and Fair range nerfs.
 
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#HBC | Red Ryu

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What MU does she lose now? To my knowledge she should still be the best character in the game based off her frame data. Unless there's something I'm missing.
Ryu, Lucario are two she mostly likely does not since she lost her kill confirms and mistakes with her are a lot more brutal than before.

Some MUs that she went evenish might have turned bad but those two are ones people point out I've seen recently.
 

False

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Nope, definitely not anymore. Probably one of the biggest changes in a game, and definitely the most drastic change from a singular patch. So much feels different about her and it's not even funny.

Things are going to shake up; Bayo will probably fight for 1st with Rosa, and Cloud, ZSS and Ryu will probably make up the rest of the Top 5. ZSS's changes are a mix of buffs/nerfs but they really don't change the character drastically. I guess Plasma Whip is... better? The rest is probably a mix of Sheik, Mario, Sonic, Diddy, Fox, and Pikachu (I've always thought he was overrated), with Villager and Ness probably rounding out the top/prime tiers (I consider Top 3 or so to be the Top, and anything from there to the top 12 or so to be Prime).
Realistically, even with the patches, who does Sheik lose to? All of her match-ups are still really good. I don't think she's a definitive best but can also contest with Bayo for best character. (Rosa is not top 3)
 

False

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Ryu, Lucario are two she mostly likely does not since she lost her kill confirms and mistakes with her are a lot more brutal than before.

Some MUs that she went evenish might have turned bad but those two are ones people point out I've seen recently.
I can see those two match ups being pretty annoying for her. Her fair isn't as reliable because it can trade with Ryu's, so she has to set the pace of the match moreso with needles. I would say Mario fares pretty well too, now.
 

M@v

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Fox may beat Sheik now too honestly. Besides bouncing fish what do I possibly have to worry about against sheik as Fox since she has a much harder time putting me in a 50-50 situation? Not to mention I can outcamp her easier than before because of the needle nerf. I strongly felt the matchup was even before (I know I was in the minority with that idea, but most top Foxes would say it was no worse than 6:4 Sheik's favor normally), so now with how much has changed with sheik, the matchup may have tipped in Fox's favor.

PS inb4 "But Larry says its awful". I've seen him consistently beat top sheiks and push Zero to the limit. The person who beats him the most is void, and they know each other better than they know themselves probably from playing so darn much. I love Larry to dehf...ヽ( ͡°╭͜ʖ╮͡° )ノ...but this is one thing I disagree with him on.
 
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Thinkaman

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this is now the first OFFICIAL Smash game where every single character has at least one losing matchup to their name.
I sympathize with the sentiment that this patch is the best thing since sliced bread (and anyone who disagrees is nutso), but we should be careful about putting polarization on a pedestal. Everyone having a losing matchup may be a symptom of most healthy games, but it is by no means a goal.

Polarization is just as bad as blanket unfairness to the long-term health of a game. Making Ganon and Jigglypuff 10-0 against Sheik would hurt Smash 4, not help it. It's easy to lose sight of this when we get caught up in the horse race of who the best characters at any given time are, but the true health of the game depends on all the matchups in the game individually rather than some aggregate average.

But I'm just being a nitpicky old fogey, picking a semantic argument with someone I agree with entirely. This patch reduced both unfairness and polarization across the game's matchup spread; the future looks bright for Smash 4.
 

M@v

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Twitter is hilarious today. These kids should go back and play brawl and deal with Brawl MK/icies for a while. Bayo is fine at the moment. That being said, if the community pushes her to busted levels and overwhelms the meta, I won't be afraid to quit unless she's nerfed or banned. I made the mistake of sticking around Brawl too long in a meta dominated by one character, and I refuse to do that again.
 
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Seagull Joe

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Maybe I haven't played enough of them, but Bayonetta doesn't seem to be an issue for me.
Wait till you get witch timed for side b'ing or attacking.
What MU does she lose now? To my knowledge she should still be the best character in the game based off her frame data. Unless there's something I'm missing.
:4sonic: beats :4sheik: now.

:018:
 

Myran

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Wait till you get witch timed for side b'ing or attacking.
I mean it's happened to me, but I know how to bait a witch time and whistle Pikmin back or use movement to imply I'll attack. Seems like any other counter in dealing with it, just more reward for them.
 

Raziek

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Re: Previous Sheik discussion:

I strongly feel that Sheik: Robin is either 45:55 or 5:5 now. Pre-patch Dath and I thought it was 45:55 (and he took VoiD to game 5 at Glitch in WSF), and it has only gotten easier. If it wasn't before, it is definitely 45:55 at worst now.
 

Fox Is Openly Deceptive

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Re: Previous Sheik discussion:

I strongly feel that Sheik: Robin is either 45:55 or 5:5 now. Pre-patch Dath and I thought it was 45:55 (and he took VoiD to game 5 at Glitch in WSF), and it has only gotten easier. If it wasn't before, it is definitely 45:55 at worst now.
Which is all very well and good, but it's also going to mean less to be able to claim such things moving forward as I'm sure you're aware. The focus will presumably shift to, how well does your character do against e.g. Cloud/Bayo.
 

Marc

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This might be a long shot, but does anyone here know what screwdriver you need to open up a pro controller?

I have never liked how Smash 4 patches typically take away options without offering much in return. Sheik as a character has not become more interesting or fun to watch, she just lost her kill confirms and will become even campier. I didn't think she was that problematic with several other characters close to her level and the DLC additions still recent, but at least this nerfing round didn't affect my mains much (I guess Cloud got a slap on the wrist).
 

Gunla

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This might be a long shot, but does anyone here know what screwdriver you need to open up a pro controller?
Both the Wii U Pro and Classic Controller Pro use Tri-wing Screws (like Gamecube controllers); you'll need a Tri-wing Screwdriver to open them.
 

Marc

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I forgot to specify it's for removing the batteries at tournaments. I don't have one myself. I've been told just now that you need a tiny + screwdriver for the battery pack.
 

#HBC | Red Ryu

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This might be a long shot, but does anyone here know what screwdriver you need to open up a pro controller?

I have never liked how Smash 4 patches typically take away options without offering much in return. Sheik as a character has not become more interesting or fun to watch, she just lost her kill confirms and will become even campier. I didn't think she was that problematic with several other characters close to her level and the DLC additions still recent, but at least this nerfing round didn't affect my mains much (I guess Cloud got a slap on the wrist).
It was a problem with her balance in the long.

She isn't supposed to have an easy way to get around her her intended weakness, she dies early and has trouble killing despite her strengths of fast frame data and fast ability to build damage.

Since she could she pretty much almost had no weakness which is a key thing I remember Salurai saying in an interview.

They tried to buff Dsmash to compensate but it didn't as much as the nerfs.

Sometimes you need to do that and remove options of it's a problem.
 

Gunla

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I forgot to specify it's for removing the batteries at tournaments. I don't have one myself. I've been told just now that you need a tiny + screwdriver for the battery pack.
The battery pack? Yeah, a tiny Phillips (+ end) screwdriver is needed to remove the batteries.
 

Shaya

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They nerfed sheik in all the wrong ways prior to now, and finally hit her with something that took away the edge of her overwhelming abilities.

Taking range off of fair? stops it being a win button that beat just about everything while also being technically one of the safest moves in the game.
Taking range off of needles? A move which controlled an entire stage length horizontally which nullified all other characters who have long range zoning games and was a stage wide threat at all times.
Having real kill sets out of a grab, with the best dash to shield frame data in the game, with the best out of shield options in the game, with the best dash grab in the game? Well that's what ensured Sheik could play a "campy" attrition game against every opponent and win.
Nairo vs Ramin recently with Nairo winning was essentially a miracle. Ramin played a stupendously safe defensive option and grab heavy Sheik. Having this dynamic killed is actually not going to have Sheik play even campier than before.... it's impossible, campier sheik is significantly worse than before.

Now she's sitting as a character forced to find ways to end stocks beyond just grabs .
But as she's been one of the strongest characters all this time, she's been hit with the proto-nerfs during the stages of patches where 90% of things were only damage values and 10% were end lag changes.
Her Up Air now not being set up out of grab makes it's current pretty average (maybe even below average) KO power very lacklustre.
Fair losing a third of it's damage over this time, now combined with the range nerf, makes it a lot harder to be safe on shield; it's "KO power" somewhat balanced around where Sheik suddenly has 0 chance of getting a regular KO move out of a grab, but at least she can kill you with the best fair in the game off stage at 180%. They could reverse the fair damage nerfs and she wouldn't suddenly be a god tier character again.
Back Air... shouldn't be the same strength it was before, but still wouldn't hurt to have it be pushed to a midway point between release and it's nerfed state.
Bouncing Fish shouldn't be dealing release damage either, so that's fine.

Now with the critical overwhelming 3 things taken away from her (that they obviously did not expect when designing her), the 'what do we do with Sheik' nerfs of before are just really hard to sit with.
 
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#HBC | Red Ryu

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Well, it was unexpected.

That and Nairo losing to Robin, since he had some experience playing the character in the past.

Larry beating Dabuz as well.

In general it was upset city with Pound.
 
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Gunla

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Madness happens when ZeRo stays away from the game too long I guess.

Pound was just weird in general, but I'm mostly happy with how it ran (apart from how 64 was treated and the fact that Melee/Smash 4 & 64 had wildly different levels of bracket progression at the start of Sunday) and I'm glad that Plank and the VGBC team did the series justice. Was skeptical previously, but now, I think I'm glad it's back.
 
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Gunla

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Hard to think that only two months ago we were on two versions older, and Mewtwo was low tier. Comes to show how just giving a character some nicer mobility specs and a few tweaks to their moves can really go a long way in this game.
 

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At least they didn't take the lazy route and just give Mewtwo a hoo-hah at an attempt to balance him.

Patches really do change everything... This game is so unpredictable.

:093:
 

M@v

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So I'm really up for trying this whole tier list thing again. Also, don't forget we have a budget; it would be crazy to let it sit there and do nothing.
 
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