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M@v

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Customs won't be a think this year. Unless the community somehow lets a vocal minority get their way. I simply won't go to evo if it is customs again. I'll be shocked if it winds up happening.
 

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Man I wasn't going to go back to EVO this year but they had to reel me back in with Pokken too.
 

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Dang guys, I had worst weekend ever. I was moving apartments, and in the middle lost all my keys and became temporarily homeless until business hours monday.

I've got access to my car and new place now, and broke into my old place to steal the hard drive with the Smash 4 Tier list data on it so I could crank it out tonight. But it looks like you guys already did it! So sorry about all of this mess.
 

Camalange

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Dang guys, I had worst weekend ever. I was moving apartments, and in the middle lost all my keys and became temporarily homeless until business hours monday.

I've got access to my car and new place now, and broke into my old place to steal the hard drive with the Smash 4 Tier list data on it so I could crank it out tonight. But it looks like you guys already did it! So sorry about all of this mess.
That is hardcore.

Thank you though for being so on top of it, but as Locuan said, there are others who can always help too. Glad you were able to resolve that situation though.

I was in a similar spot months ago where I had to leave my old apartment and I wans't 100% guaranteed my new place. Had to take all of my things to my parents in a different state the night before because I couldn't get my keys until the next day, so I then traveled with all that stuff back into the city and moved in. It was inconvenient, but I was lucky to have that support and at least finally getting approved for the new apartment was reassuring, otherwise I would've been screwed.

:093:
 

shrooby

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I feel like we should talk about the possibility of legalizing custom moves for specific characters, like Palutena, Wii Fit Trainer, Mii Brawler, Mii Gunner, and Mii Swordfighter for tournaments.

Otherwise, those characters are basically non-existent.
Wii Fit's specials are really holding her back. If you looked at how many players used her at EVO, imagine the amount of diversity there would be in the game. Mind you, I'm not asking for this format to be a customs environment. All the members are asking is if we could legalize the customs for Palutena and the Miis.

If you feel Wii Fit should not be discussed, then we can just focus solely on Palutena and the Miis.
Increasing viability via customs, which is what this argument comes down to, is too arbitrary.

There isn't a sound, objective difference between letting Wii Fit use her customs and letting Villager (as a hot-topic example) use his. Villager already being "good" or "more viable" without customs isn't a clear enough reason.
Even discounting, say, the top half of the roster whomever you think that includes, there are plenty of characters that would be better with their customs. You can't cherry pick. There isn't really anything that should prevent, to give a non-high tier example, Bowser from using customs even though he'd get a lot from them.

You bring up Wii Fit's success at EVO as a motivator for her specifically. That's too arbitrary as well because it basically says that she should have customs available because she in particular gets so much from them. (How much exactly? The thing is that it's not really measurable, but I'll harp on that later.) If you want to argue this way, then you can't exclude other characters who get a lot from their customs on the grounds that they're otherwise good characters. That's simply too arbitrary and open to too much interpretation. The previously mentioned Villager, like his customs or not, gains a lot from customs. (More or less than Wii Fit, I don't know enough about either character to say that. But you can't deny all that Villager gains from them, is the point.) You can't exclude him because he's "already good without them." Then we have to start defining some sort of cutoff for what allows a character to use their customs... That's a logistical nightmare, and, again, completely arbitrary.

You're further excluding characters who are worse than Wii Fit with or without customs. Because even with customs they're still pretty bad and don't gain as much as Wii Fit, so why even bother letting them use their customs? Again, that's arbitrary. Ex. Why not let Jiggs or DDD use their customs even though they really don't gain much from them?

In order to address these arbitrary points I've brought up, you have to look at what you're proposing and ask yourself how you can propose this as objective and measurable as possible. (There's a whole amazing read on this but I can't remember where I read it. But the key is that we ban/don't ban based on define-able and measurable things.)
In that way of thinking, here's what it seems you're proposing.

"Measure" how much "viability" Wii Fit gains from having her customs available.
To use it in this context, we have to define "viability" explicitly, and develop some way of measuring it.

"Define" some sort of cut-off using that definition that says "if a character is above Wii Fit Trainer's point of viability without customs, and gain just as much viability with customs as Wii Fit Trainer does, then that character cannot use customs." This cutoff would also have to include something such as "if a character has less viability than Wii Fit Trainer without customs, and gains less viability than Wii Fit Trainer from customs, that character may not use customs."

When it's phrased this way, do you see why this is odd? The cut offs are arbitrary, "viability" is not measurable and is therefor arbitrary, there's no real reason in using Wii Fit specifically as the way of defining these things.


Miis are different. Miis at least have a semi-objective reason for letting them use their customs specials. The decision by tournaments/regions to do so is not because "otherwise Miis are bad." It's because it's arguably a logical consequence of how the game works. IE Not completely arbitrary. (Abstaining from whether Miis should or shouldn't have their customs given this.)
 
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Marc

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Before this becomes its own thing, can we agree on what we would want to discuss exactly? IMO the most pressing issue is Mii treatment, but we could do customs as well. Just note that at this point it's not something we want to force a ruling on. Another big one is stock count. Might be a bit much to do all three at once, so which are people feeling the most?
 

NickRiddle

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I doubt stock count will ever be changed.
Mii availability is one that should be looked at... just not exactly sure how to go about it.
 

M@v

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And I think customs across the cast is a dead issue. If there's any doubt, just remember NONE of the DLC characters were given customs and balance changes barely touched any of the customs outside of a select few. I like the idea of them, but they are too imbalanced to implement as a whole.
 
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CHOMPY

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Maybe we can just focus on the Miis right now. The one thing I want to address is the size and weight. Are we going to keep them the default size to make it fair and straightforward?
 

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Miis are the highest priority, imo.

Customs, as a whole, should be a lost cause as already stated. I can thank DLC for making that a definitive case.

Stock seems like such a "either or" case for the majority of people that I'm not sure it's currently worth shaking up, but not out of the question.

I also think the Bowser suicide rule should be important, as it's a really messy rule for some reason (I think it's a pretty cut dry case that Bowser shouldn't get the win if it shows the opponent on the victory screen, but...)

:093:
 

#HBC | Red Ryu

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I also think the Bowser suicide rule should be important, as it's a really messy rule for some reason (I think it's a pretty cut dry case that Bowser shouldn't get the win if it shows the opponent on the victory screen, but...)

:093:
This needs to be discussed.

A lot of regions still hold the suicide rule as something even though smash 4 is the first game to make it consistent with the win/loss situation.
 

Camalange

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Okay, let's do the Miis.
Unless anyone has a reason why we shouldn't, we'll kick off this thread sometime shortly.
This needs to be discussed.

A lot of regions still hold the suicide rule as something even though smash 4 is the first game to make it consistent with the win/loss situation.
Agreed. At the end of the day, it's just how the move works. We shouldn't be giving a pity victory just because Bowser's suicide is bad.

:093:
 

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Here's the thing, though: Smash 4 ISN'T consistent with how Koopacide gets treated. And it's an absolute shame that people just don't understand all the facts here.

Bowser does NOT always die first.

It's stage dependent, even differing between Omega stages. And with the last couple patches, now it also seems to be dependent on whether or not it's an air grab or a grounded grab.

Right now there are TWO possible outcomes: Sudden Death, or Bowser dies first.

The move is very, very bugged. The patches have not shown a consistency when it comes to how the move is supposed to function offstage, as some stages that used to be Bowser loses changed to Sudden Death.

As a Bowser main, it's incredibly frustrating, although it's mitigated somewhat by Klaw's vastly increased air speed, giving the opponent less time to gank you. But even more frustrating is that SO many people use the same flawed logic of "this is the way the game was intended" without fully understanding how the move actually works.
 

#HBC | Red Ryu

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Here's the thing, though: Smash 4 ISN'T consistent with how Koopacide gets treated. And it's an absolute shame that people just don't understand all the facts here.

Bowser does NOT always die first.

It's stage dependent, even differing between Omega stages. And with the last couple patches, now it also seems to be dependent on whether or not it's an air grab or a grounded grab.

Right now there are TWO possible outcomes: Sudden Death, or Bowser dies first.

The move is very, very bugged. The patches have not shown a consistency when it comes to how the move is supposed to function offstage, as some stages that used to be Bowser loses changed to Sudden Death.

As a Bowser main, it's incredibly frustrating, although it's mitigated somewhat by Klaw's vastly increased air speed, giving the opponent less time to gank you. But even more frustrating is that SO many people use the same flawed logic of "this is the way the game was intended" without fully understanding how the move actually works.
Ok that is a bit different.

I thought it got fixed like it did for Ganon where he always wins instead of random depending on character and height he grabbed them like in Brawl.

My b.
 

Locuan

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Unless anyone has a reason why we shouldn't, we'll kick off this thread sometime shortly.
I'd say we can start of that thread and one for the Suicide Clause for Bowser? [I'd think it'd be good to cover that]

As for the Mii's, best way I believe we can come to a conclusion after the discussion has taken place is to have the original post be constantly edited. By that I mean, have it formatted were we can accurately see the arguments for their use by the members of the 4BR, arguments against their use, and any relevant factoids that need to be highlighted.

Thoughts?
 
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Myran

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I would understand if it isn't really worth talking about here since it's more location based, but do you guys think it could be beneficial to discuss the legality of wireless controllers? Having them banned at some large tournament is annoying when others don't, but if we came to a consensus then maybe TO's would follow suit.
 

Camalange

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I'd say we can start of that thread and one for the Suicide Clause for Bowser? [I'd think it'd be good to cover that]

As for the Mii's, best way I believe we can come to a conclusion after the discussion has taken place is to have the original post be constantly edited. By that I mean, have it formatted were we can accurately see the arguments for their use by the members of the 4BR, arguments against their use, and any relevant factoids that need to be highlighted.

Thoughts?
You mean basically update the OP with quotes for both sides?
I would understand if it isn't really worth talking about here since it's more location based, but do you guys think it could be beneficial to discuss the legality of wireless controllers? Having them banned at some large tournament is annoying when others don't, but if we came to a consensus then maybe TO's would follow suit.
It's kind of weird to me because there is a very doable workaround...

If every person who uses a Wii U Pro just takes out the battery and plugs it in via USB, we wouldn't have any issues. This should be more widespread.

:093:
 

Gunla

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If every person who uses a Wii U Pro just takes out the battery and plugs it in via USB, we wouldn't have any issues. This should be more widespread.
I believe he was referring to Wiichuck.
 
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Camalange

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Yeah, I don't see why not.
I believe he was referring to Wiichuck.
That's just unacceptable.

But realistically, the Wiimotes are so easy to pop the battery out of.

I think for locals, it's easy enough to legalize all controllers, but for huge events, most don't accept them.

If there is a large enough desire to discuss this though, I'd be interested in counterpoints but ultimately, when a game offers you so many ways to play and you're choosing to be competitive, wired is always the standard.

:093:
 

shrooby

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Yeah, I don't see why not.

That's just unacceptable.

But realistically, the Wiimotes are so easy to pop the battery out of.

I think for locals, it's easy enough to legalize all controllers, but for huge events, most don't accept them.

If there is a large enough desire to discuss this though, I'd be interested in counterpoints but ultimately, when a game offers you so many ways to play and you're choosing to be competitive, wired is always the standard.

:093:
Most people who go to tournaments use GC controllers and aren't TOs.
I don't have a "counterpoint," but I will say it's easy to think something should be banned or not if its legality wouldn't affect you very much. (Outside of your set being delayed a minute or two every now and then because someone left their wireless controller on.)
 
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M@v

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I have seen wireless controller shenanigans at almost every local I've been at, including during grand finals that I was in, becase someone from before forgot to desync their pro controller and hit "home". and every time it happens I say "This is EXACTLY why large tournaments ban wireless controllers." ヽ( ͡°╭͜ʖ╮͡° )ノ
 

Camalange

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Most people who go to tournaments use GC controllers and aren't TOs.
I don't have a "counterpoint," but I will say it's easy to think something should be banned or not if its legality wouldn't affect you very much. (Outside of your set being delayed a minute or two every now and then because someone left their wireless controller on.)
I'm referring to the standard across games, not just Smash. And yes, TOs, who ultimately don't want delays or matches being interfered, will ban wireless because that's a huge problem and handling this across hundreds or thousands of entrants is not in their range.

"being delayed a minute or two every now and then" is not just the singular concern. I watched a SFV local just the other day where during the middle of a losers semis match, it jumped to the PS Home menu not once, not twice, but three times. For a local, and for it just being a newly released game, the stakes aren't as high, but many people actively voiced how this issue would need to be solved, even as far as Twitch chat users saying that person should be banned outright. Imagine this issue occurring on EVO's scale? Not to say wired is foolproof (again, refer to EVO) but it's far, far less likely.

However, I also don't blame TOs for just banning all wireless. You look at other fighters and wired is the standard. It's not a unique problem to Smash.

I'm not saying this as some GC elitist... And I don't see how wireless causing delays and interruptions during a set isn't an issue for players or TOs...

I think Wii U Pros should be fully legalized though (under the condition I stated) as it appears the vast majority of people aren't aware of this easy workaround (but again, this technically makes it a non-wireless controller, which would go back to the original point of wired being the standard).

At my local, someone plays with a Wiimote, and it's totally fine. Even on a national scale, that would probably be fine considering, like I said, the battery is easy to pop-out, but can you trust so many people to do the same? If there was a method to ensure this, that'd be great. A referee at every single station, sure. Will TOs do that? I'm not sure.

:093:
 

Myran

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I almost never get issues from my locals, and when I do it's usually from pro controllers. The USB charger thing is best for those imo, but I think compromising with wiimotes being allowed would be great. Wiimotes are seen probably the least, and at large scale majors the TOs could even do what G3 did by having a separate area for wireless players who would stay there essentially eliminating any wireless interference outside that small area.
 

Marc

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Pro controllers drove me crazy at the last big event I hosted. We have yet to finalize this, but we will probably flat out ban the batteries and provide a screwdriver to remove them on the spot if necessary. The only way to keep them legal is wired, IMO.
 

Myran

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So you'd ban wiimotes too? It's unfortunate that some bad seeds can ruin the bunch. Even then I'm still hopeful of tournaments allowing wiimotes since they're so rarely seen in comparison.
 

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What are optimal ways of ensuring that people will be responsible for their Wiimotes though? I'm currently siding with Marc on the wired solution for Wii U Pros. Not sure what else can be done for other ways of play.

Kicked off the Mii Legality debate thread: http://smashboards.com/threads/mii-legality-thread.431690/

Currently holding off on the Bowsercide, due to having the Umbra Clock Tower debate in effect as well. If you guys don't feel too overwhelmed by multiple topics at once, I'd be fine with starting that one as well.

However, with the social the way it is, perhaps it'd be better to move the controller discussion to a separate thread as well?

:093:
 

M@v

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So you'd ban wiimotes too? It's unfortunate that some bad seeds can ruin the bunch. Even then I'm still hopeful of tournaments allowing wiimotes since they're so rarely seen in comparison.
Tournaments are getting too big nowadays; its getting too difficult to just tell/trust one person when small locals are 30+, let alone larger events. Plus, you will have people with pro controllers complaining why they can't do wireless if a wii mote setup is allowed.
 

Myran

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Well how do you all feel about the solution that G3 did where wireless controller players stayed in a set area with setups and play their tourney matches there? That eliminates a large majority of chance for them to mess up something I'd imagine.
 

Marc

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I was just talking pro controllers. It's too much of a hassle to constantly put the battery in and out, so it's wired or nothing. Wiimotes shouldn't be an issue in an ideal world, because those batteries are easy to remove.

Not every event has separate rooms and for the actual tournament wireless users still have to mingle.
 

Myran

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Yeah that's definitely true but you don't even need a separate room, just a few dedicated setups for the wiimote users if it is an issue.
 

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Can we discuss the fact that control over rulesets is entirely monopolized by a small handful of people currently?

Umbra is getting ****ed out of actual testing by Bear, and it makes me absolutely livid.

Same issue is why the Mii rules currently suck ass basically everywhere.

I would love to see a return to the days of the recommended ruleset, or even the URC. As it stands currently, top players just whine about EVERYTHING on Twitter and receive hand jobs from TOs desperate to please them.
 

Myran

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I enjoy the G3 stage list a ton, but I do agree that it seems a few TOs seem to have more power than everyone else.
 

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Not endorsing the above hate; but whenever I read on facebook from a third party something like "I hate 3 stocks" and this is responded to with roughly "won't happen while I'm around" I get a little worried. I would take it as a joke most of the time and it is limited to facebook (as in, haven't seen such things mentioned in any other arena). However, I think it's a pretty aggressive position to take on a dividing issue, even in jest.

When it comes to stages, it is not fair that a new stage (although I personally am leaning away from it) gets an enthusiastic wave of "it won't be legal at Evo, hence it won't/shouldn't be legal". If I'm assuming correctly from what Raziek's saying.

I know that the ultimate goal here is for a unified ruleset. And I also know that 'conservative' choices are the easiest and most likely to be enacted decisions.
But the dynamism of our community in adaption and testing shouldn't be so easily brushed aside due to the aforementioned motivations. Let the community test and make it's own informed decisions :)
 
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Raziek

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Comments to that effect have been seen from both parties on Twitter numerous times.

In particular, this tweet is what spurred this response:

https://twitter.com/AllyOrNotAlly/status/703840370547826689

Like, really?

Are we that scrubby?

There's no dialogue here from the TOs. Bear did THREE polls, all of which favored Umbra Counterpick. Then he banned it for EVO and is setting a precedent to keep it banned.

It's completely unreasonable.
 

Marc

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If EVO is willing to base their ruleset on one TO and one commentator from the US, that's on them. They will obviously just get that one opinion and gamble on the biases of the person they ask.

Considering how the stock "debate" went down in that one Facebook group, I'm not expecting the American scene to recover. The people running the biggest events can always play the power card and people would still go with like 1 stock and items. All you can hope for is your local scene to stay sane through leading by example.
 

M@v

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I'm not letting Umbra get dropped from my region. Hell we still run delfino and castle siege because we think they are OK counterpicks. CPs are meant to have conditions favorable to certain characters, and disadvantaged to others.
 
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