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4BR Smash for Wii U Tier List V4

Discussion in 'News' started by Shaya, Dec 11, 2017.

Shaya, Dec 11, 2017 at 6:17 PM
  1. Shaya

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          「chase you」 

    • Senator
    • Back Roomer
    Jun 8, 2007
    /人◕‿‿◕人\ FABULOUS Max!

    v4 article.png

    With a multitude of major tournaments and new competitors entering the fray, it has been a pretty busy year for Smash for Wii U. It's been a bit more than 6 months since our previous Tier List in March, and many characters have maintained their trends (such as Lucina or Ness) while some further solidified their current positions (like Bayonetta and Jigglypuff).

    As an ever repeated disclaimer, the Smash for Wii U Backroom (4BR) acknowledges the fact tier lists are subjective and hence not always (or ever) fully accurate, if not typically controversial. However, we feel that, despite the frequent discourse that often results because of tier lists, this process is necessary in order to archive and reflect on the history of the changing meta.

    The holiday season is a hectic time of the year for many and as a time consuming process it has been difficult bringing something together which satisfies myself and my colleagues, let alone the community. Although a shift in views can occur after any large tournament (post-majoritus is very infectious!), it's important to consider how rarely any perceivable difference would be sizable. Regardless, we appreciate your understanding and patience; let's talk about the 4BR Official Smash for Wii U Tier List V4.


    Unlike individual tier lists, we collect samples from around the world (and are always looking for more, especially from the Central/South American and European regions) in order to find a reasonable middle ground to represent a character's viability. Ultimately, even 3 years after the game's release (and nearly 2 years without any patches or balance adjustments), consensus is still quite rare and character specialists are continually working to prove something to all of us.

    Over the course of November, we asked 4BR members to distribute all of the characters in the game (with a handful of exceptions) across a number of tiers, with each voter having the ability to choose as many tiers as they'd like, and order characters within tiers if so desired. Players were to assume the most recent set of balance changes were being played (1.1.6, or 1.1.7, due to the differences between each version being amiibo compatibility and nothing else) and that traditional tournament rulesets were taken into account.

    In regards to characters, the following criteria was specified:
    • Pit and Dark Pit were treated as the same character. At this point, the primary consensus is that, due to the nature of these characters being nearly identical (beyond a handful of immediate differences, as well as a general idea of which Pit fares better), there is effectively no reason to not pair them together.
    • Miis were excluded. Over time, voting input regarding this trio has largely dwindled due to the status on their legality and the growing rarity of their players. Despite our desire to do so, it is incredibly difficult to give a detailed and accurate rating for them and they were not included in the final ranking. Given the potential status of their re-legalization going into 2018, it wouldn't be a surprise if they were considered for V5 or future versions of the 4BR Tier List.
    For an example, here is Liberation's vote. He ordered characters within each tier and opted for 4 tiers total (of Top, High, Mid and Low Tier).

    Top: :4bayonetta::4diddy::4cloud::4sheik::4zss::rosalina::4sonic::4mario::4fox::4marth::4corrin::4mewtwo::4ryu:
    High: :4olimar::4bowser::4dk::4pikachu::4greninja::4luigi::4lucina::4metaknight::4villager::4tlink::4falcon::4peach::4megaman::4lucario:
    Mid: :4ness::4lucas::4rob::4link::4yoshi::4pit::4myfriends::4robinm::4charizard::4duckhunt::4shulk::4wario:
    Low: :4palutena::4littlemac::4samus::4gaw::4feroy::4dedede::4wiifit::4falco::4drmario::4kirby::4pacman::4bowserjr::4ganondorf::4zelda::4jigglypuff:

    In addition, we had opted to remove outliers from the voting data. After initial voting, we created a preliminary tier list, allowing for outliers to be remedied for 4BR voters. Following this, final votes that were outside of the interquartile range (IQR) of a character's spread (±1.5*IQR from the median) were disregarded in the final ranking. While there were a handful of outliers, it did not majorly change the landscape of the Tier List.

    For the sake of placement differences between lists, we have given tied spots to characters whose average scores differed by less than 0.1. This applies to the following pairs of characters:

    • Cloud & Diddy (.02 difference)
    • Fox & Sonic (.04 difference)
    • Marth & Ryu (.07 difference)
    • Ness & Lucas (.02 difference)
    • Robin & Samus (.02 difference)
    • Ganondorf & Zelda (.01 difference)

    Voting had mostly concluded around the 26th of November, meaning that the 2GGC Championship was not taken into account as a result. We ended up having a total of 39 votes, mostly focused within the US, Australia, and Japan. As always, we do not publicly release the lists of voters, but individual correspondents are free to release their own.

    The following people submitted a vote:
    Das Koopa
    Espy Rose
    Meteor Master
    Red Ryu
    Sinister Slush

    Similar to the ranking process of V3, we generated two scores based upon two factors from voter submissions: average placements and average groupings (or tiers). Also included in our voting data is the standard deviations for each of the two main factors, as well as the placement differences from V3 to V4, accounting for the change in format.

    Character Mean (Placement) Standard Deviation (Placement) Mean (Group) Standard Deviation (Group) Difference from V3
    1 :4bayonetta: 1.19 0.401 8.63 0.669 ±0
    2 :4cloud: 2.49 0.768 8.55 0.732 +1
    3 :4diddy: 2.51 0.887 8.54 0.751 ±0
    4 :4sheik: 4.68 1.772 8.17 0.792 ±0
    5 :rosalina: 5.99 2.034 7.92 0.761 3
    6 :4zss: 6.46 1.839 7.75 0.737 +5
    7 :4fox: 6.56 1.463 7.78 0.699 ±0
    8 :4sonic: 6.6 1.488 7.82 0.763 -2
    9 :4mario: 9.81 1.732 7.5 0.685 -3
    10 :4mewtwo: 10.38 1.332 7.42 0.605 -1
    11 :4marth: 11.54 1.705 7.14 0.705 -1
    12 :4ryu: 11.61 2.491 7.29 0.677 +1
    13 :4corrinf: 13.29 1.822 6.8 0.732 ±0
    14 :4lucina: 14.39 3.378 6.69 0.826 +4
    15 :4pikachu: 17.37 4.054 6.19 0.615 ±0
    16 :4metaknight: 17.97 3.453 6.18 0.65 -2
    17 :4lucario: 18.41 4.662 6.11 0.881 +2
    18 :4luigi: 19.07 4.325 5.96 0.675 +8
    19 :4falcon: 19.25 3.876 6.07 0.778 +4
    20 :4peach: 20.14 4.063 5.96 0.761 +1
    21 :4olimar: 20.68 4.871 5.8 0.754 +6
    22 :4dk: 20.82 3.958 5.78 0.875 +6
    23 :4tlink: 23.31 4.244 5.58 0.816 -3
    24 :4bowser: 23.73 5.059 5.39 0.851 +1
    25 :4villagerf: 24.85 5.107 5.45 0.85 -8
    26 :4greninja: 24.96 4.711 5.44 0.723 -4
    27 :4megaman: 25.89 3.552 5.24 0.67 -11
    28 :4ness: 28.62 4.522 4.93 0.753 -4
    29 :4lucas: 28.64 4.793 4.91 0.784 +3
    30 :4duckhunt: 31.59 6.046 4.49 0.91 +6
    31 :4link: 32.11 3.46 4.45 0.658 +7
    32 :4pit: 32.27 6.09 4.47 0.902 -2
    33 :4yoshi: 32.96 4.615 4.35 0.711 -4
    34 :4shulk: 33.21 5.448 4.28 0.767 +3
    35 :4rob: 34.59 5.276 4.28 1.019 -3
    36 :4robinm: 35.11 4.167 4.23 0.817 -3
    37 :4samus: 35.13 4.399 4.02 0.927 +4
    38 :4gaw: 37.95 3.71 3.75 0.783 +1
    39 :4myfriends: 38.58 4.556 3.63 0.982 -5
    40 :4wario: 39.12 5.07 3.6 0.963 -5
    41 :4feroy: 39.66 4.182 3.48 0.9 +2
    42 :4charizard: 41.95 3.069 3.23 0.784 +2
    43 :4littlemac: 43.43 2.941 2.97 0.786 -1
    44 :4palutena: 43.96 3.846 2.92 0.784 -3
    45 :4pacman: 45.43 3.687 2.72 0.778 ±0
    46 :4falco: 45.65 2.84 2.65 0.805 +3
    47 :4bowserjr: 47.01 3.241 2.44 0.969 ±0
    48 :4drmario: 47.64 2.643 2.45 0.869 +2
    49 :4kirby: 48.86 3.578 2.14 0.999 -3
    50 :4wiifitm: 49.32 2.972 2.11 0.901 -2
    51 :4dedede: 49.59 3.3 1.94 0.87 ±0
    52 :4ganondorf: 51.21 1.786 1.69 0.822 ±0
    53 :4zelda: 51.22 2.022 1.68 0.765 +1
    54 :4jigglypuff: 53.47 0.735 1.35 0.672 ±0

    A low standard deviation indicates that voters generally placed the character close to the average (mean), whereas a higher standard deviation indicates disagreement in the character's placement. The top and bottom tiers tend to have lower values of standard deviation, whereas the mid tiers tend to have higher values.

    By simultaneously taking order and tiers (or groupings) under the same vote, this allowed us to have a basis for the general order of characters, as well as a baseline to decide our tier separations. While a few instances of grouping caused minimal discrepancies, order was given priority when there was a discrepancy in the order of characters on the list.

    Here are the individual groupings for each tier, which uses the group score rating. We decided between doing groupings between whole numbers, and between mid-points between each number, eventually settling on the former with some edge cases being moved based on proximity to other tiers. While we avoided giving strict designations (Top, High, Mid and Low) for this edition of the Tier List, for those looking towards specific character tier events, tiers F and G would be fair to consider for Low Tier; for Mid Tier, tiers D and E.

    Tier Group Score Range Defined Range
    1 S 8.63 - 8.54 9 - 8
    2 A 8.17 - 7.29 8 - 7
    3 B 6.8 - 5.98 7 - 6
    4 C 5.8 - 4.91 6 - 5
    5 D 4.49 - 4.02 5 - 4
    6 E 3.75 - 2.92 4 - 3
    7 F 2.72 - 2.11 3 - 2
    8 G 1.94 - 1.35 2 - 1

    Said edge cases:
    • Sheik (moved down) - 8.17
    • Luigi, Peach (moved up) - 5.96
    • Ness (moved up) - 4.93
    • Lucas (moved up) - 4.91
    • Little Mac (moved up) - 2.97
    • Palutena (moved up) - 2.92

    With our methodology accounted for, we're happy to present to you...


    Official 4BR Wii U Tier List V4

    S: :4bayonetta: :4cloud: :4diddy:
    A: :4sheik: :rosalina: :4zss: :4fox: :4sonic: :4mario: :4mewtwo: :4marth: :4ryu:
    B: :4corrinf: :4lucina: :4pikachu: :4metaknight: :4lucario: :4luigi: :4falcon: :4peach:
    C: :4olimar: :4dk: :4tlink: :4bowser: :4villagerf: :4greninja: :4megaman: :4ness: :4lucas:
    D: :4duckhunt: :4link: (:4pit::4darkpit:) :4yoshi: :4shulk: :4rob: :4robinm: :4samus:
    E: :4gaw: :4myfriends: :4wario: :4feroy: :4charizard: :4littlemac: :4palutena:
    F: :4pacman: :4falco: :4bowserjr: :4drmario: :4kirby: :4wiifitm:
    G: :4dedede: :4ganondorf: :4zelda: :4jigglypuff:

    Text Version
    S: Bayonetta, Cloud, Diddy Kong
    A: Sheik, Rosalina, Zero Suit Samus, Fox, Sonic, Mario, Mewtwo, Marth, Ryu
    B: Corrin, Lucina, Pikachu, Meta Knight, Lucario, Luigi, Captain Falcon, Peach
    C: Olimar, Donkey Kong, Toon Link, Bowser, Villager, Greninja, Mega Man, Ness, Lucas
    D: Duck Hunt Dog, Link, Pit & Dark Pit, Yoshi, Shulk, R.O.B., Robin, Samus
    E: Mr. Game & Watch, Ike, Wario, Roy, Charizard, Little Mac, Palutena
    F: Pac-Man, Falco, Bowser Jr., Dr. Mario, Kirby, Wii Fit Trainer
    G: King Dedede, Ganondorf, Zelda, Jigglypuff

    Graphic Version
    Image Credit: @shrooby

    Comments and Notes

    Included here are some comments from a few members of the 4BR, as well as the two heads of this project.

    Pit & Dark Pit - 6.09
    Duck Hunt - 6.046
    Shulk - 5.448
    R.O.B. - 5.276
    Villager - 5.107

    Bayonetta - .401
    Jigglypuff - .735
    Cloud - .768
    Diddy - .887
    Mewtwo - 1.332

    In terms of highest standard deviation, things have mostly remained the same from V3 - while Olimar has dropped a bit, he is still a contested character. Instead, Pit and Dark Pit - given the relative obscurity of the character - has taken the top spot (last time, they had the 3rd highest standard deviation), and Duck Hunt remains at 2nd. Lucina has taken a sharp drop from the top, now having a standard deviation that puts her around the middle point of the cast. Most of all, however, it is important to note - while V3's largest standard deviation was 7.005, V4's is 6.09 (coming from a mixture of slightly less volatile voting and removal of outliers), showing that even at points of volatility, a good consensus is coming to fruition.

    On the opposite end of the spectrum, given the relative emergence of Bayonetta and her solidification as the game's strongest, it comes as little surprise that she holds the lowest standard deviation by a decent margin. Other than her, Cloud and Diddy solidify themselves as the top 3 by most voters with deviations below 1 - and Jigglypuff keeps herself at the bottom by having the second lowest standard deviation as a whole.

    Megaman: -11
    Villager: -8
    Luigi: +8
    Link: +7
    Duck Hunt, Donkey Kong & Olimar: +6
    Ike & Wario: -5
    ZSS: +5
    Lucina, Falcon & Samus: +4
    Greninja, Ness &Yoshi: -4

    Although a generalisation, it would be safe to say a lot of drops seen in V4 are reflective of dwindling tournament exposure (from their biggest namesakes), difficult matchups with DLC; in particular Bayonetta and Cloud, or both.

    Compared to their status as premier projectile zoners, Villager and Megaman have declined significantly, falling out of the 'high tier' area, while many others such as Link, Duck Hunt, Samus and Olimar (now the highest of his class) have risen, all finding a spot in the middle region of C & D tier. Their cohort also contains the likes of Donkey Kong and Bowser, potent characters at a lot of levels, and can succeed at the highest in particular match ups; in other words, they are still threats. It would be nice to see any of these characters reclaim the spots Villager and Megaman once held (Olimar being close to the B-tier cutoff) but their tendency to require almost prodigal players to succeed at higher levels might mean we'll be waiting for a while

    While not as big of a drop as the likes of Megaman (-11) or Villager (-8). Yoshi still fell a fair amount by having the 4th most spots dropped, shared alongside Ness and Greninja.
    For a character that was believed to be Top 3/15 with great tools at the beginning, to being a jack of all trades master of none bottom of High tier, until the eventual fading out of existence with only a few extremely rare occurrences of a Yoshi popping up out of top 64 of a Regional or National and almost being bottom of Mid tier.

    Yoshi as a character preyed mostly on MU inexperience in the early days, but eventually people slowly learned Yoshi's traits and weaknesses or patches made characters better than him, along with DLC happening just making it far worse for Yoshi and his players.

    His downfall can easily be linked, without question, to Bayonetta and Cloud's addition to the game. But what also hinders him is the drop of players attending less or plain retiring (Barakas/TheWall, Raptor, Firefly, Aiba etc.) The only Yoshi's to pay attention to thus far is Seth, DIO and Ron, two of which main different High tiers to deal with problematic matchups (DIO with Ryu and Ron with Mario/Luigi).

    It's further exemplified, for example, at the most recent tourney as of writing this (being Midwest Mayhem 10). Seth (the best Yoshi currently) got double eliminated by Tweek's Cloud and Ned's Cloud with Tweek deconstructing the MU and showing just how to pick apart at Yoshi. Bayo/Cloud aside, Yoshi also struggles with other popular Top/High tiers such as Diddy, Rosalina, Mewtwo, Corrin, Meta Knight, Marth, and Ryu.

    As Yoshi fell, players quit and his meta stagnated, other characters rose up to the occasion like Duck Hunt, Link, Samus, Shulk, DK and Luigi.

    If your first instinct to him dropping a few spaces is "he's too low, his meta and results have been stellar as of late," that is true. Unfortunately, the voting period ended just a few days before his sudden explosion of results. Some, Lea, Stroder, iStudying, and Elexiao have all been doing amazing lately, and there'd definitely be more results if players like Venia started traveling as well. A lot of other characters' metas have been successfully pushed as well, so there's a greater competition for higher spots on the tier list now.

    I expect him to higher on the next tier list if these results continue.

    To start off - where we had her last tier list was awfully low considering.
    But at the time leading up to V3, ZSS players were struggling to be consistent after a combination of the nerfs (which didn't hurt so much at first) and others becoming stronger in the match up (particularly Cloud and Bayonetta becoming increasingly more difficult). The general mood of many people was that she's too high risk to be at the highest echelons.
    At the time I (Shaya) disagreed - her conversions are top 3 and I also felt matchups like Diddy were going to get better, although difficult her potency still allows her a fighting chance against our DLC overlords.
    Although the aforementioned characters seem to be solidifying as potential bracket blocks to her success, it's relatively mitigated by the fact it's still a lot better than most characters - including those in her own tier. Going into the future, she boasts a supreme advantage state, an overall good match up spread throughout the cast and a lot of talented players behind her.


    With the offseason in place, the game is now at a short point of rest going into 2018 - with Genesis 5 acting as the first official tournament of the PGR v5 season (and Umebura Third Anniversary Tournament being added in as an exception), this will be the time frame in which the 4BR Tier List V5's looks towards (in addition to the 2GGC Championship).

    What do you think of the tier list? Do you agree with the placements, or would you place certain characters differently? Let us know what your thoughts and questions are and we will try to address the most common ones in a followup article, which will include additional statements from various members of the 4BR.

    It's thanks to the support of our members and the willingness of outside contributions that we have produced this list, but we'd like to extend thanks particularly to Vayseth, Jucchan and Luco for obtaining outside votes. In addition I must specially thank Fox Is Openly Deceptive, Shrooby and Liberation for their always appreciated help and their assistance in release.
Sub-Categories: This article has no sub-categories


Discussion in 'News' started by Shaya, Dec 11, 2017.

    1. ShinyLegendary
      Greetings! I am very excited to see everyone's opinions! Awesome tier list!

      Sheik left the S tier for the first time...
      Last edited: Dec 11, 2017
    2. busken
      Good. Imo she's highly unlikely to to win an s-tier event compared to character speculated to be around her tier level.
    3. Aegislasher
      Shulk above R.O.B? Interesting... Nice to see Corrin still in her position of second best FE character, just outside of top 10. Not liking Kirby just outside bottom 5 though.
      Last edited: Dec 11, 2017
      Awesomeperson159 and DatKirby15 like this.
    4. L1N3R1D3R
      This is actually pretty solid for the most part. I'd say Lucina, Yoshi, and R.O.B. are a bit high and Olimar, Samus, Wario, Roy, and Kirby are a little low, but otherwise I'd agree.
      I agree with your opinion of Corrin and Kirby, but what has R.O.B. done recently to warrant being above Shulk?
      Last edited: Dec 11, 2017
    5. TigerBizNiz
      Fox #7 yet again. :laugh:
      WiFi, Jalil, TriTails and 7 others like this.
    6. Zero Soul
      Zero Soul
      I understand why the Miis were cut from the tier list but it's still saddening to see them not on it.
    7. DiamondJoyride
      Probably just me, but Sonic is too low, I'd bump him up a spot or two.
    8. RIku434
      Kirby dropping at usual. I get Kirby is bad but worse than Doc? Kirby has a better recovery, better spacing tools, and better mobility. The only things Doc is better than Kirby is at is Kill power and maybe combo game. Also Kirby has more results than Doc.
      DatKirby15 and L1N3R1D3R like this.
    9. ARGHETH
      Interestingly enough, a lot of top players from Japan submitted a vote, but almost none from the US did.

      While Kirby might technically have better mobility than Doc, in practice it's effectively not that different. Kirby is still prone to being camped out, and still has a hard time approaching.
    10. Hat N' Clogs
      Hat N' Clogs
      I like this tier list in general. Looking good :)
      I'm just happy that Mario is still top 10 haha
      Jalil, TriTails, Malos and 4 others like this.
    11. Opossum
      Notably, this is the closest Marth and Lucina have been on these tier lists, being only two spaces apart. And considering Marth and Ryu were incredibly close, it's closer to like, one and four fifths.
      Jalil, Swampasaur, Malos and 4 others like this.
    12. Aegislasher
      I'm pretty sure that Kirby has far better combo potential than Doc, at least at early and mid percents. He does have slightly better kill power than Kirby over all though.
    13. SlamShady
      Thoughts on Ness:

      The gradual fall of Ness over time is sad. Even more unfortunately, I expect it to continue to trend in such a direction. Although his raw tools are excellent in theory, based on his MU spread, he really suffers within the meta. DLC certainly only worsened things too with their rise in prevalence.

      The interesting thing to me at least, is how much people judge his MUs based on how easy it is for a character to gimp his recovery offstage, such as Rosalina, Corrin, etc. However, with a bit of practice, nearly any character can jump into his recovery for an early gimp, whether it is teching and halving the distance of the recovery or just falling into the thunder. I think this chief weakness will continue to haunt him as the meta continues to develop, similar to how characters like Little Mac should be getting gimped far more often than he is, even now.

      That being said, however, I do feel as if this character is often judged as a combination of his high highs (combo game + edgeguarding potential) and his low lows (exploitable recovery in particular) without considering other components of his game, such as neutral. I think his neutral is quite mediocre, which should be more defining than gimpability through specific moves like Rosa and company, given how just about any character can do it.

      Another key thing is his lack of representation at tourneys, with NAKAT's lack of usage of him, FOW's continued absence, Shaky's absence, taranito's, etc. Even with the emergence of S1, Gackt, and Great Gonzales, who are strong players in their own right, he hasn't been a factor at majors essentially. I assume this further contributed to his decline.

      Ness and Lucas:

      On a completely different note, it aggravates me that Ness and Lucas were voted essentially at the same spot. The playstyles, punish games, neutral, and MUs are WAY different despite coming from their same franchise. Although I think Lucas is probably better, (more well-rounded MU spread as a whole and a far better neutral) it really bothers me how they've gotten lumped together, but I digress.

      General thoughts:

      I think Duck Hunt is going to continue to rise as has his meta and representation on a national level. Definitely a character with the tools to contend with a majority of the cast, despite his difficulty and time commitment to get to a level of consistency for it.

      Corrin in particular seems to be a character with the potential to compete with the best characters of the meta with her strong combo game, early finisher potential, and solid neutral. I've always thought that she has been underrated by people, but I'm curious to see how she will be viewed in the near future.

      Some characters I think that will continue to fall with Ness due to their shared struggles against the top and high tier characters (where the meta seems to be approaching) include Olimar, Villager, Mega Man, Lucario, and Robin. Although I'd love to see otherwise, I feel these characters don't have enough consistent tools to compete with a significant portion of the B tier and above, in my opinion.

      I'm a little miffed that the Miis aren't included, but at the same time, it may be better for them to to be unrepresented than given extremely skewed rankings based on lack of character knowledge and representation.

      I appreciate the S ranked characters being in a tier of their own, where I think they properly belong, noticeably above the rest of the cast.

      Overall, the list seems quite solid to me and I appreciate the work done on it!
      PixelSun, BirthNote, xzx and 7 others like this.
    14. MistressRemilia
      So, 4BR's 4th tier list, here we go.
      First off, i'm going to be honest: I really like it. It's a decently accurate depiction of the current metagame, although you can definitely notice that the voting had been done a couple weeks, perhaps even months before its release ( I think @Das Koopa had mentioned it when talking about Meta Knight ). Either way, let's get started with the various things i disagree with:

      - The really frail nature of Mario's matchup has been exposed, with his issues approaching through a somewhat mediocre ground game for neutral purposes & an overall lack of range hindering him in a lot more matchups than you'd expect from a Top tier character. I also believe that his advantage state, as of now, is kind of overrated & could use a little more polish: I'm not saying it's bad, by any means, not even close, just that it has shown to be more inconsistent than it perhaps should be: When fighting Mario, as of right now, in certain situations, you COULD take a lot of damage, rather than you WILL. I may be a little ahead of my time, but i do believe Mario's spot in the tier list will have to be questioned as the metagame progresses, if things don't change.

      - I believe even the most faithful Ranai enthusiasts or Villager mains would agree that the likelihood of him making waves at a major are much lower than some characters below him, such as Greninja. The best characters of the game are able, through their movement options, whether it's sheer mobility or the ability to somewhat negative Villager's threatening parts in his zoning. I believe Villager will only go down as time goes on, as his zoning tools lack the flexibility found in the likes of Duck Hunt or Item based zoners and renders him too easily beaten in the one part he should be succeeding most of the time.

      - Robin's decline has been clear for long enough to establish them as mediocre characters. Their weak frame data weakens their zoning & stage control potential, which is unfortunately one of the most pivotal points of Robin's neutral. The lack of instantaneous overall in Robin's zoning is also an issue, which will lead to, much like Villager, a neutral that's easily broken by the majority of good characters, but at least Villager had an okay disadvantage state & his tools, while not the most flexible as i've mentioned, are certainly more than Robin's. I really can't think of any relevant character Robin does remotely decent against, as for the 2 characters right below her, Game&Watch and Samus, i can think of a decent amount.

      - While underwhelming to most, Palutena sticks out as a relatively consistent character with tools that remain rather valuable in the metagame, such as her insane BackAir & overall decent enough aerials, along with good mobility specs. She really does have a decent shot against the likes of good swordies & the plumbers, and while i haven't seen much of that being used at Top Level, i think i've seen some European player make use of it. It's probably kind of nitpicky but i do think she's better than Mac, who by the way i don't have much faith on as a whole: Character's just too vulnerable to platform camping which is getting more & more popular as the meta progresses. I could go on, but i'm kind of lazy, so maybe another day.

      - Have i missed some event? Did Bowser Jr. suddenly become a decent enough character? Matchups are abysmal ( Ryu being the best one BJR has to offer, while still being a stretch: BJR's attempt at keepaway can be broken well enough by Ryu, and when it comes to when BJR wants to get something started, it's almost as bad as for any of his other matchups ) , The character has a mediocre neutral with decent-ish but slow & unsafe if not retreating aerials, really predictable ways of unlocking his advantage state which means that against any decent player, he'll be struggling to do anything but play his often beaten neutral, and a pretty subpar disadvantage. When reached, BJR will struggle to even defend himself given his abysmal Out of Shield game. So yeah, there really isn't much to be told about BJR that's notable: Maybe a bottom tier, or the worst low tier.

      And that's it! And yes, most of these are kind of nitpicky, because as I said before, I believe this iteration of 4BR's tier list is a respectable depiction of the current metagame. I do have some more personal things i would question and that i may talk about in the thread associated with the new 4BR list, but i'll pass for now.
      Last edited: Dec 11, 2017
      Guido65, Hotcakes and MercuryPenny like this.
    15. Opossum
      In order to celebrate Mega Man 11 being announced, Mega Man has dropped eleven spots. :p
      Lukingordex, Nu~, Alex Night and 31 others like this.
    16. Aegislasher
      I think it might have been that they just happened to be voted next to each other, nothing to do with their franchise. (I don't know, I haven't looked at the voting data yet, but that might be what happened)
    17. ARGHETH
      They were literally 0.02 points apart, so I think a lot of people put them together, just in different orders.
    18. Shizuka Kawai
      Shizuka Kawai
      Allow me to share my thoughts:
      • With my girl :4bayonetta2: still in first, looks like the whining and complaining about her continues. Dreadful!
      • By the three stars on my short black skirt, I am happy to see my other girl :rosalina: make it back into top 5.
      • :4lucina: in 14th place is what especially stood out to me. She has risen 33 spaces over time, far more than any other character. It's been a long time coming, and I, a 56-year-old female Smasher, am proud of her.
      • Surprised that :4villager: and :4megaman: fell quite a bit, but that's not quite as surprising as seeing :4kirby: drop to 50th! This is pretty comparable to his Melee or even Project M self.
      • I asked earlier where :4miigun::4miibrawl::4miisword: was, and the answer was here. Don't know how I could of missed this. Oh well, I'm not giving up on them. Maybe next tier list they'll be included.

      All praise and thanks goes to the Backroom for the new tier list! :)

      Now that I've said my piece...sayonara :kirby:
      Last edited: Dec 11, 2017
    19. Aegislasher
      I suppose you are right, although recently neither of them have done anything significant. Shulk at least has a couple of mains who place somewhat decently (Nicko, Tremendo Dude I guess, cant remember the name of the other one). R.O.B has Raffi-X and 8BitMan and that is about it.
    20. The Stoopid Unikorn
      The Stoopid Unikorn
      It's better than nothing :p
    21. JustAnotherSaltyPaluMain
      No comments on this. No... comments...

      (cries in Palutena)

      Man, that's cold
      Last edited: Dec 11, 2017
    22. KuroganeHammer
      2017 and lucina and marth are still seperated by a tier

      Come on yall have had 4 iterations to get this right
    23. Yonder
      Unless I'm missing it, I'm surprised Luigi didn't get an explanation for his (cyclone) rise, the highest increase on the list. A lot of competitive scene followers know it's due to Elegant with high S tier placements along with the more prominently known cycliwn spike...but I feel that should have been in the detailed post.
      L1N3R1D3R, Red Ryu and ShinyLegendary like this.
    24. Rizen
      It's weird to see Link above Samus and ROB. Do they have big road blocks I wasn't aware of?
    25. Ethan7
      What do "ties" mean in this? I assume Fox and Sonic both 7th, for example.
    26. Luco
      You guys can give us a bit more credit than assuming we all voted ness and Lucas together and that it was because of an archaic, outdated idea that they're semiclones from the same series. Just going forward in this discussion I felt that should be made clear. :p
      Nu~ likes this.
    27. ShinyLegendary
      Can you stop trying to annoy people in SmashBoards who worked hard to make this tier list? Please do not make posts like that just to anger and annoy people. It is irrelevant.

      Just be happy we got a tier list.

      T has done very well with Link and his match ups are not that bad. His buffs to his grab also helped him out a lot, which makes him worthy of the second best in the D tier.
      Last edited: Dec 11, 2017
    28. CSWooly
      Robin does well vs Bowser and DK, and debatably does well vs Ryu and Sonic.
    29. Rizen
      ^I see Robin and Kirby as counter pick characters while struggling to be solo-viable. That does have value; look at DK and Bowser. A few terrible MUs don't hold them back.
      None of that really justifies him being above Samus and ROB though. The both have overall better results. ROB has his own grab combos, Ro-Bo or whatever, and I think Samus has some off grab (?) plus high combo potential off things like Dash attack. Samus also has impressive frame data and mobility. I'm glad Link moved up a bit but don't see him as better then they are unless they have devastating losses to relevant characters. ROB might as he tends to be combo food but Samus seems pretty good.
      Last edited: Dec 11, 2017
      ShinyLegendary likes this.
    30. SSJ22Terris
      I'm a little confused as to why ROB is as high as he is. Somewhat of a reverse with Charizard, I feel like we've been seeing more success with pocket Zards as of late and wouldve expected him higher, but perhaps that's just me. Kirby's placing is a bit odd to me as well. It's probably just do to low results, but I don't think he belongs in that tier.
      Last edited: Dec 12, 2017
      xzx likes this.
    31. Delzethin
      Well...I admit, it's not as bad as I was expecting. I have some gripes with it, but they're more about the ordering within each tier rather than a bunch of characters being several tiers off. Won't go over the former much since I'd be here all night, but what I'd change for the latter is:

      :4myfriends::4gaw:: E -> D
      : F -> E
      :4zelda:: G -> F

      Other than that, I do think Robin fits better near the front of D, Samus along with him, and I still think Bowser gets overrated when (unless I'm missing something) almost every notable thing he's done has been as a counterpick and not a main.

      I'm still not satisfied by it, but it's better than the last one, and at least Robin wasn't dumped into the 40s like I expected. Here's hoping Smash Switch gets announced soon so we can see more balance patches and flatten this list out!

      If you ask me...Robin's biggest problem is perception.

      Here's one example: Robin's frame data isn't anything to write home about, but it's not exactly "weak" like Ganondorf's or Shulk's or et cetera. Quite a few of Robin's moves--especially his aerials--start slow but end fast. People see the slow startup but overlook how freakishly low commitment some of his moves are for their power and comboability. For example: Did you know Robin's forward air (FAF 34, hits on 12-18) finishes faster than Marth's does (FAF 38, hits on 6-8)? Or that he has the earliest overall autocancels of any sword user? Seriously! But these kinds of things get overlooked because they aren't obvious on the surface.

      It shows up in bigger ways, too. So when you think of a disjoint zoner, what do you picture? Probably Marth, right? Melee Marth specifically, hammering people's shields with lightning fast low commitment sword swings in a way that's really more pressure than zoning? That's what a lot of Smashers picture when they think of, well, any character who wields a sword, and they tend to expect Marth from them and dock points from them if they don't play like Marth and don't have any standout overpowered tools like Corrin's pin or Cloud's Limit mechanic. But Robin's disjoints don't work like Marth's, as you've noticed: he can't throw out walls of hitboxes with knee-jerk levels of reaction. Instead, his disjoints are designed to swing first and then end fast before they can be punished. It's different, it works when used properly, but since it's not what a disjoint zoner is expected to do, it gets overlooked and Robin's swordplay gets written off as "slow Marth" rather than a different but still effective style of zoning.

      Then again, think of how many times Robin's disjoints get overlooked entirely! When Smashers see projectile zoners, they usually expect hardcore long range camping like you see from For Glory Links and Samuses. It's not even optimal for them, mind you, but it sticks since at that low level it feels like their natural tendency and it's frustrating as hell to deal with until you learn the counterplay to it. And so Robin gets expected to do that, too. I can't tell you how many times I've seen someone assume Robin auto-loses any matchup to any character with a reflector or low crouch due to them assuming 100% of Robin's neutral must be mindless projectile spam! Thing is, that's not what his spells are geared for at all--Robin's projectiles work best at midrange or just past it, he prefers to be more proactive and take control of the stage rather than sitting back and pitching a tent, and hell, Arcfire's an advantage state tool, not a neutral one! But since characters with projectiles are expected to be long range campers, Robin gets docked for not doing that very well while his projectiles' actual strengths are overlooked.

      "Wait a minute", you may be wondering, "If this is all true, why don't more people know about it?" Well, when's the last time you've seen a Robin on stream at a big tournament? It's been a while, hasn't it? Not only is Robin one of the rarest mid tiers out there (I think only Olimar and the Pits are rarer?), Robin players have this frustrating tendency of never getting to go on stream even when they're doing well. How many Robin sets were streamed at Fire Emblem Saga's main tournament? One. How many were streamed at Smash Con, where three Robins made it out of pools and Ke-Ya beat Larry Lurr on the first day? Zero. Maybe it's a long series of coincidences, maybe it's due to a lot of big name Robins being under the radar, maybe it's that frustratingly prevalent assumption that Robin must be slow and campy and boring to watch. But whatever the reason, high level Robin play is almost never seen by the greater Smash community, and so there's never a chance for those incorrect impressions to be disproved. And then since no one realizes when a Robin main does something notable due to them never being on stream (shout out to Skorpio getting 7th at Midwest Mayhem last month), people don't notice what results he has!

      It's a giant self-fulfiling prophecy. I honestly don't know how to fight it, it's not easy to get noticed when your character gets written off left and right for not fitting a really rigid mold (shout out to Dath going on a ridiculous run last year, only for Robin to fall three spots in the v3 tier list that immediately followed).

      Apologies for blowing up the comments. This just happened to be a good segue into something that's had me at my wit's end for months.

      And far as top tier matchups go, Robin arguably goes even against Ryu and Sonic (screws up the latter's approaches with Thunder spells and contests his landings well), and doesn't lose by much to Sheik, Rosalina, Mario, and Marth. Who knew, right?
      Last edited: Dec 12, 2017
    32. MERPIS
      too bad its still garbage
    33. xzx
      PAC-MAN's still too high. He belongs in G-tier.
    34. Shizuka Kawai
      Shizuka Kawai
      Grandma Shizuka agrees with what @ShinyLegendary said. You know, you do have the option of ignoring the tier list, right? If competitive play is not your thing, you should not have three ****s to give about who is good or bad.

      Sayonara :kirby:
    35. Cloud20
      Ike is below Link and samus.


      Well Atleast Lucina improved.

      Megaman fell :(

      Kirby fell again :(

      Bayonetta and Cloud and Rosalina are still above ZSS :)

      Ness better than Link :)

      Megaman and villager fell are you f***ing kidding me.

      Falco is higher :)
      Last edited: Dec 12, 2017
    36. tecmo
      Care to explain further? If you say the tier list sucks but don't give insight into why you think that and what you think should change, then you have no right to complain and are simply trolling.
      Last edited: Dec 12, 2017
    37. xDantieLx
      Aaaah finally ZsS is where she needs to be :)

      Fox, Sonic and ZsS are so close on the tier list imo but for me, she has a solid placement between the 6th and 8th spot.
      The top 10 looks amazing overall.
    38. xDantieLx
      Rosalina is a given, ZsS is equally good i would say.
      As for Bayo and Cloud yeah...cuz ZsS isnt OP :)
    39. megel
      great sonic is top 8 oh well

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