4BR Official Tier List V3 - Discussion Thread

[Gunla]

Discussion thread for 4BR Tier List V3. If you wish to vote and have not done so, you may do so here. Please be sure to follow the guidelines.

This thread is meant for discussion on the V3 Tier List. Please discuss in a civilized manner, but feel free to raise questions, point out various observations, and so on.

Supplemental Resources (additional resources compiling certain results and rankings):

• Das Koopa's Tournament Placing Database & Scoring Project (Archive of recent results and majors)
• Tier List v2.0 (Timeperiod: January-August 2016)
• Smash 4 Power Rankings Directory (Directory of most regions and areas with their Power Rankings)
• OrionRank 2016 (Results based ranking done by @Das Koopa)
• Panda Global Rankings v2 (Takes results from CEO 2016 to 2GGT Zero Saga)

 

[Player-1]

I think with the new ruleset being heavily pushed it's hard to say how heavily it impacts the new tier list since we haven't even have a ntional in it. I had Diddy as 5th in my previous tier list which assumed the old standard ruleset, but with this new one I would move him to 3rd because of the absence stages to take diddy to. I could see a lot of other changes for a character's placement like ZSS is probably nerfed, Fox may be buffed now (?) due to the absence of lylat.

 

[Illusion.]

If you're not sure how a certain character tends to place, this is a good place to look.

Weeklies are excluded (some exceptions).

 

[Gunla]

I'll put the supplemental resources here in the OP as well.

 

[Fox Is Openly Deceptive]

When voting this time around, please keep in mind that smash 4 is a comparatively very balanced game, therefore please reconsider just how many entire tier gaps you need and what a tier gap actually means. It is not a way to make the layout look nice and it should not be guided by what you expected to see in past tier lists. It should represent a point at which you believe there is a fundamental and notable divide between two sets of characters.

 

[Yikarur]

Don't put the new ruleset into your tiering vote. The vote should include everything up until now and the "new ruleset" is stil WIP and should not be considered yet.

 

[Sinister Slush]

There hasn't been even many weeklies from the people behind the new ruleset that played on it yet, so of course 0 big regionals or nationals on it.
We'll of course be doing the voting based on the previous stuff, P1.

 

[Gunla]

SSC through G4 is the main period to account for, which did not feature any tournaments under the new ruleset

 

[Illusion.]

Pictures are broken currently, so here's my draft in text form:

S-
A-
B-
C-
D-
E-
F-
G-

Give me feedback to start a discussion.

 

[Sinister Slush]

Sheik: You and Yika both so far have put down Sheik for best character in the game, what makes you think so?

DK/Bowser: Feel a bit too low to me and while their metagame revolves around the same thing don't think they're similar enough in power speed pokes in neutral and so on to really have them next to each other as if they're the Pit bros.

Mario: Is it solely cause of Ally/Anti that makes you believe he's above Fox?

Can't bring up all of my concerns, might as well start small.

 

[Illusion.]

I currently have her as the best for consistency and theory. She's been in the top 5 of Das Koopa's results project for almost, if not the entirety, of 1.1.6. Her results at majors are extremely consistent, thanks to Void and Mr. R. Theoretically, she loses one or no MUs.

I don't think they're high tier simply because they have a lot of disadvantageous MUs, some of which being very polarizing (, , are examples). They find more success as counterpick characters than they do from the players who solo-main them, though Tweek's DK is something definitely worth noting after what he did at MSM.

Ally, ANTi, and even Zenyou have showed that Mario is extremely capable of winning nationals or placing top 8 in them. Like , he tends to have some iffy MUs, but it's nothing unwinnable. is the character that I feel gives him a run for his money for this spot; performs a lot better regionally, while performs better nationally, and has been in the top 6 of Das Koopa's project for the entirety of 1.1.6

 

[Sinister Slush]

I currently have her as the best for consistency and theory. She's been in the top 5 of Das Koopa's results project for almost, if not the entirety, of 1.1.6. Her results at majors are extremely consistent, thanks to Void and Mr. R. Theoretically, she loses one or no MUs.

Hasn't diddy and cloud also been in the top 5 in points for awhile with Bayo even being first for awhile due to the patch she was brainless.
Sheik's consistent in at least getting 3rd-17th place at the big nationals when it matters. Almost never does she win anything important unfortunately whether it's Nairo/dabuz taking one of them out killing them sub 40% or just plain losing against MUs she wins handedly like sonic cloud or even Luigi with him losing to Elegant 3-0. Cloud Diddy wins things while Sheik is still scratching for that big win.

Theoretically Bayo Diddy can lose no MUs either when playing perfectly cause witch timing everything perfectly while Diddy is all around the best pick + banana existing in his hands puts anyone in a state of fear immediately.
Well any character in a perfect world, Marth that tippers everything would be busted.

I don't think they're high tier simply because they have a lot of disadvantageous MUs, some of which being very polarizing (, , are examples). They find more success as counterpick characters than they do from the players who solo-main them, though Tweek's DK is something definitely worth noting after what he did at MSM.

These two suffer from Rosa/Sonic but ZSS is a dying race, Nario and Marss is all that's left right? Dunno if Choco will ever travel OoC and no idea with Nick riddle.
I wasn't saying high tier, but maybe the "high-mid" tier below the duo pokemon in your list since Das's numbers show DK and Bowser having more points than peach and definitely more results (albeit minorly), especially DK when Tweek beat all the swordies at the MSM weekly that might as well have been a mini national.

Bowser is a bit more of an enigma but it seems like most of NA is starting to pull out Bowser/DK counterpicks for some matchups like Larry vs Void for example if FD is chosen, or Japan with their Wario picks. (not saying wario shot up cause of that alone, reflex and gluttony doing a bunch) So think these characters could rise simply from the times they were chosen, but DK moreso cause the minor things DKwill did before the CP train and Tweek's pretty big win.

But otherwise the big CP characters if not those two is MK Sheik and Cloud based on Orion's 100 players.

Ally, ANTi, and even Zenyou have showed that Mario is extremely capable of winning nationals or placing top 8 in them. Like , he tends to have some iffy MUs, but it's nothing unwinnable. is the character that I feel gives him a run for his money for this spot; performs a lot better regionally, while performs better nationally, and has been in the top 6 of Das Koopa's project for the entirety of 1.1.6

Going off usage and Das's data, it feels like Fox is more fit to be number 5. Fox is just completely ahead of Mario in terms of points in the final scoring.
Mario's one big player that always does well solo is Ally with Anti needing secondaries every now and then to help him through bracket and Zenyou despite almost taking a set off Zero usually only gets top 48 or doesn't even get out of pools at nationals.
Even with Fox being the same thing with Larry as the stand out player with even a secondary in some matchups, there's still a lot more data off fox cause there's a much bigger playerbase to gauge from and even the mid to high level fox's tend to do better than Mario. Although the numbers can be inflated for both sides cause there's so many fox's while mostly Ally/Anti is the reasoning behind Mario having a lot.

In my own list I have Mario dropping below Sonic cause of the giant playerbase Sonic has and how good they tend to do. (outside of genesis 4)

 

[Yikarur]

My personal Top5 is Sheik, Bayo, Diddy, [Sonic, Cloud] and I think, it's very likely that this is our games Top5.
Sheik has no losing MUs imo
Bayo loses to Sheik and Diddy.
Diddy apparantly loses to some zoning mid tiers.
Cloud loses to Sheik, Bayo and Diddy.
Sonic ... I don't really know his match-ups but he seems to have one of the best. I rarely hear people saying "this character wins the Sonic MU"

Fox would be my next pick for potential Top5 because I don't see many disadvantaged MUs. I'm not that educated on his MU chart tho

Marios seems to have trouble with sword MUs while doing excellently against my Top3. (Exc = at least even)
But Mario isn't really carrying players. I feel like the whole roster is very close to even, because you have to be an outstanding player to make him work. Similar to Sheik but with disadvantage MUs everywhere.

 

[Illusion.]

have also been top 5 in results for the entirety of 1.1.6, you're right on that. I put up there at the moment to be safe; like I said she has one or no losing MUs on top of consistency in all types of events, meanwhile the other 3 do have MUs they struggle in.

The tier I have in is high-mid.

I agree that has the ability to take away the spot I have in at the moment, but the deciding factor here, since they both get good results, was that loses hard to 2 of the 4 on top, and only struggles with up there and does fine against the other 3.

 

[Player-1]

Anytime I've made tier lists, I've always used a mix of results and character potential from my own viewpoint, it's just hard to judge potential since that's seen to be in the future and if the future is this new ruleset then it's had to judge that.


Also, I think this is a good resource too. A compilation of notable players' matchup charts:
https://www.reddit.com/r/smashbros/comments/5q0erf/notable_players_matchup_chart_compilation_v5/

 

[Espy Rose]

I just don't see Sonic as a top five character. He sees success on a smaller scale than characters like Mario and Fox. Even das koopa's Final Late Scores of 2016 show a significant gap between him and 5th rank Sheik for top 16. Top 8 he's barely scraping 5th by less than 2 points, with the next in line (again Sheik) having a significant gap on him.

His MUs are pretty stiff. He loses to pretty much everyone above him (Cloud, Diddy, Bayo, Sheik), and struggles with plenty of MUs down the list (Fox, Mewtwo, ZSS, Rosalina, Corrin). I personally feel that he also has some difficulty vs characters like Marth, Peach, Mario, Mega Man, and Meta Knight, but those MUs don't happen frequently enough to gauge much off of them that isn't theorycraft.

Sonic is still pretty good, don't get me wrong. Easily top 10, and if you're good enough you can definitely net a top 8 placing at a big event, but the instances in which Sonic gets anything within the top 5 of a tournament are few and far inbetween.

 

[Sinister Slush]

it's just hard to judge potential since that's seen to be in the future and if the future is this new ruleset then it's had to judge that.

The tierlist is based on current metagame/past results over a certain period of time not the future.
That's why the first tier list was finished without Bayo/Corrin even though everyone was aware they were coming out Feb 3rd with most likely other massive or minor changes in that patch.

 

[Player-1]

The tierlist is based on current metagame/past results over a certain period of time not the future.
That's why the first tier list was finished without Bayo/Corrin even though everyone was aware they were coming out Feb 3rd with most likely other massive or minor changes in that patch.

I mean, there wasn't any past results of Bayo/Corrin either. People have always discussed character potential in tier list, so unless this is new then I don't see anything backing that.

 

[Yikarur]

I've never perceived a tier list as a meta game represenation.
A tier list was always "how good are characters"-list and results, MU spreads and theory are all just a subset of the whole.

If we'd do a meta game based tier list, we could just take results and call it a day.

 

[Sinister Slush]

Question of the ages, Cloud number 1 in the game or Bayonetta. Explain.

 

[Shaya]

Bayo's riding a lot more on theory right now -
theory of tools which degenerate match ups; which I think we can safely say applies to most of the cast. She's definitely a metagame defining character ALREADY, at most levels of play.
Bayo can camp and/or platform stall and most top tiers don't have a real answer. She's pulling off that Brawl niche ala Wario and to some extent MK (at least near the ledge).

Diddy to me still seems a more appropriate character to put above her - he has the best set of tools in the cast, not necessarily the most tuned tools, but the most expansive.The advantages he has on most top tiers, despite having sprinkles of difficulties throughout the cast doesn't matter enough (to me).

Meanwhile, I struggle to see who Cloud can actually lose to.
I don't think it's safe to say either Sheik or Bayo beat him. People assume they can beat Cloud because they have simple/easier than average ways of gimping his recovery. I think anti-meta development on this part is very prevalent. Meanwhile his off stage and edge guarding game combination is likely best in the game against everyone else, it's definitely not a net loss to him.

His neutral keeps improving because, well, a character with that many walling + combo combined tools with the best mobility specs in limit and close to otherwise is bound to have that happen. "Oh just shield", well, although no guaranteed throw set ups, the positional advantage and the sheer amount of "frame traps coming out of every orifice" is pretty much what Marth had in Brawl and it was still very good for him.
Just because one thing is not as good as others, doesn't mean it still cannot be used nearly as well as other things. That roughly summarizes Cloud's shortfalls in a nutshell.

 

[Sinister Slush]

Marcbri What's the reasoning behind Yoshi being number 36 on your list, I'm a huge pessimist and think Yoshi is bad but that's pretty low even for me. There's no way he's in a worse state of usage or results than anyone below Greninja (Ness I'll bring up in a bit) down to charizard.
Ness/Robin as low as they are seems questionable too. Most of us are aware of Ness being absent from tourney play cause FOW and Shaky been MIA for awhile but they're slowly returning and doing well still. As for Robin Dath and Raziek have been doing really well with Robin, albeit for Raziek he's been focusing more on his cloud pocket as of late.


Even though there's a decent amount of votes for Yoshi at 35+ I can't address or tag all the people that voted him around there. Well, I can, but rather not.
If they ever happen to check smashboards more often rather than vote and go back to being afk for next few weeks or months, just look at some of the stuff Seth raptor or wall results/wins they get to maybe change your mind and bump him up a few more placements.

The character is good, not great, but not a character that's near the bottom of mid tier threatened to even drop in low tier compared to other mid tiers like lucas wario GnW or Palutena for some examples or if he belongs in the same tier as characters like DH Little mac Samus and Roy.

 

[Marcbri]

Marcbri What's the reasoning behind Yoshi being number 36 on your list, I'm a huge pessimist and think Yoshi is bad but that's pretty low even for me. There's no way he's in a worse state of usage or results than anyone below Greninja (Ness I'll bring up in a bit) down to charizard.
Ness/Robin as low as they are seems questionable too. Most of us are aware of Ness being absent from tourney play cause FOW and Shaky been MIA for awhile but they're slowly returning and doing well still. As for Robin Dath and Raziek have been doing really well with Robin, albeit for Raziek he's been focusing more on his cloud pocket as of late.


Even though there's a decent amount of votes for Yoshi at 35+ I can't address or tag all the people that voted him around there. Well, I can, but rather not.
If they ever happen to check smashboards more often rather than vote and go back to being afk for next few weeks or months, just look at some of the stuff Seth raptor or wall results/wins they get to maybe change your mind and bump him up a few more placements.

The character is good, not great, but not a character that's near the bottom of mid tier threatened to even drop in low tier compared to other mid tiers like lucas wario GnW or Palutena for some examples or if he belongs in the same tier as characters like DH Little mac Samus and Roy.

On Yoshi: He has no real reason to be high honestly, on paper the character is OK but lacks some stuff (hard time against shield and getting kills mainly), his results are extremely lacking and his MU vs the top characters in the game like Bayo, Cloud and Diddy is pretty bad. The character could definitely be better but unless we see more of it in the national level I don't think it's justified to have him up. The Wall and the other Yoshis have some wins, yep. but almost all characters have some strong wins and the yoshi ones aren't that impressive.


On Ness: FOW is still doing pretty ok, not on the level he was on 2015 at all tho, and same goes for the rest of Ness top players. DLC has done nothing but add horrible match-ups for him, and some of the characters that were at the top before like ZSS and Pikachu are becoming less popular in favour of Cloud or Marth. I find him way too weak in some areas (no way to approach characters like Cloud or Sonic + easily gimpable by pretty much the entire cast) and the only way he'll be going in the tier list is down imo.


On Robin: I may be a bit biased on this one because I play this character a lot and find he just thrives off of MU inexperience. He actually does ok against some top tiers like Sonic but I don't think there's hope in some others if the opponent forces Robin to approach, which he can't do at all. Some of these characters include Bayo, Cloud, Mario, Villager or Lucas. His results are very good tho, and actually way better these past months over anything Yoshi or Ness have done. Dath has been amazing consistently and Skorpio and Jerm have got some wins at some tournaments too (I'm pretty sure Raziek is now a Cloud main and rarely plays Robin in tournament anymore). If I had to change one of these three it would be Robin as there's clear reasons as to why he could be higher, will look into it later today.

 

[Raziek]

Hi. I haven't played Robin at a regional sized tournament since August 2016.

Consider me solo Cloud for discussion purposes.

Edit : I lied I guess, I used her for 1 game at TBH6, but have otherwise been Solo Cloud.

 

[ぱみゅ]

Numbers are a wonderful thing~
I compiled our votes and tried to create an average (after removing outliers).
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1szNyww2r-kVXEEhSljn2lqc9X6jl51L4DZJXJU20SMo/edit?usp=sharing

DO NOT AS WHY OR I'LL QUESTION MY OWN SANITY.



My method is likely far from perfect, let me know if the list can be improved somehow.

 

[Shaya]

Char/Placement | Average Score | Std Dev | Average Group | Std Dev
Bayonetta | 2.0 | 1.35 | 7.94 | 0.227
Diddy Kong | 2.3 | 0.991 | 7.95 | 0.211
Cloud | 3.31 | 1.443 | 7.77 | 0.438
Sheik | 4.22 | 1.988 | 7.62 | 0.564
Sonic | 5.63 | 2.257 | 7.35 | 0.608
6th | 6.59 | 1.936 | 7.25 | 0.614
7th | 7.06 | 1.904 | 7.17 | 0.667
8th | 8.61 | 2.635 | 7.01 | 0.678
9th | 9.17 | 2.039 | 6.89 | 0.615
10th | 9.73 | 2.822 | 6.81 | 0.662
Zero Suit Samus | 9.86 | 2.099 | 6.74 | 0.594
Ryu 12th | 12.4 | 2.758 | 6.51 | 0.766
13th | 15.06 | 3.691 | 6.0 | 0.808
14th | 15.39 | 3.046 | 5.82 | 0.717
15th | 17.67 | 4.67 | 5.83 | 0.734
16th | 17.7 | 4.126 | 5.62 | 0.556
17th | 18.2 | 3.22 | 5.66 | 0.609
18th | 18.78 | 5.992 | 5.67 | 0.841
19th | 20.23 | 5.581 | 5.4 | 0.741
20th | 20.84 | 3.874 | 5.33 | 0.654
21st | 22.79 | 4.303 | 5.14 | 0.791
22nd | 23.52 | 4.657 | 5.08 | 0.569
23rd | 23.61 | 4.608 | 5.11 | 0.801
24th | 24.82 | 5.534 | 4.95 | 0.748
25th | 25.0 | 5.46 | 4.87 | 0.807
26th | 25.69 | 5.669 | 4.86 | 0.846
27th | 25.82 | 7.005 | 4.76 | 1.01
28th | 26.63 | 4.32 | 4.71 | 0.644
29th | 28.26 | 4.968 | 4.6 | 0.891
30th | 28.69 | 6.021 | 4.52 | 0.825
31st | 30.12 | 4.659 | 4.35 | 0.814
32nd | 30.34 | 4.799 | 4.28 | 0.949
Robin 33rd | 30.64 | 5.555 | 4.22 | 0.782
Ike 34th | 35.04 | 4.111 | 3.68 | 0.812
35th | 36.77 | 5.097 | 3.62 | 1.004
36th | 37.11 | 6.595 | 3.42 | 0.917
37th | 37.31 | 5.894 | 3.47 | 0.871
38th | 38.59 | 4.908 | 3.37 | 0.842
39th | 39.18 | 5.54 | 3.29 | 0.972
40th | 40.32 | 5.596 | 2.94 | 1.135
41st | 40.67 | 4.997 | 2.94 | 0.837
42nd | 42.02 | 4.478 | 2.87 | 0.911
43rd | 42.59 | 5.43 | 2.86 | 0.979
44th | 42.89 | 5.485 | 2.84 | 0.994
45th | 44.39 | 5.608 | 2.66 | 1.048
46th | 44.51 | 4.777 | 2.65 | 0.989
47th | 45.53 | 5.306 | 2.5 | 1.094
48th | 45.61 | 4.496 | 2.4 | 0.821
49th | 45.7 | 4.069 | 2.39 | 0.829
50th | 47.09 | 4.542 | 2.26 | 0.839
51st | 50.02 | 3.009 | 1.71 | 0.859
52nd | 51.12 | 4.075 | 1.94 | 1.097
53rd | 51.69 | 2.39 | 1.46 | 0.655
54th | 51.88 | 2.472 | 1.69 | 0.533
55th | 51.96 | 2.562 | 1.43 | 0.579
56th | 52.62 | 5.023 | 1.61 | 0.629
Jigglypuff 57th | 53.67 | 1.502 | 1.18 | 0.356

Kinda obfuscated 'just in case', and also to try to keep some objectivity of what tier divides/etc should from the data less so the characters.
Exception being some areas I already spotted which are probably worth thinking about (thus far, ill edit others in, sure).
Feel free to ask me what characters are which though. I suppose one could refer to Kyo's spreadsheet to know roughly where abouts people are (well, 2x as many votes were counted since, so theres probably a few changes).

 

[ぱみゅ]

I guess I can update it, but then again, I probably would need to recalculate everything and possibly take out more outliers.

 

[Gunla]

Final data with a few characters for reference.

char | avg. score | std. dev | avg. group | std. dev
Bayonetta | 2.0 | 1.35 | 7.94 | 0.227
Diddy Kong | 2.3 | 0.991 | 7.95 | 0.211
Cloud | 3.31 | 1.443 | 7.77 | 0.438
Sheik | 4.22 | 1.988 | 7.62 | 0.564
Sonic | 5.63 | 2.257 | 7.35 | 0.608
6th | 6.59 | 1.936 | 7.25 | 0.614
7th | 7.06 | 1.904 | 7.17 | 0.667
8th | 8.61 | 2.635 | 7.01 | 0.678
9th | 9.17 | 2.039 | 6.89 | 0.615
10th | 9.73 | 2.822 | 6.81 | 0.662
Zero Suit Samus | 9.86 | 2.099 | 6.74 | 0.594
Ryu | 12.4 | 2.758 | 6.51 | 0.766
Corrin | 15.06 | 3.691 | 6.0 | 0.808
14th | 15.39 | 3.046 | 5.82 | 0.717
15th | 17.67 | 4.67 | 5.83 | 0.734
16th | 17.7 | 4.126 | 5.62 | 0.556
17th | 18.2 | 3.22 | 5.66 | 0.609
Lucina | 18.78 | 5.992 | 5.67 | 0.841
Lucario | 20.23 | 5.581 | 5.4 | 0.741
20th | 20.84 | 3.874 | 5.33 | 0.654
21st | 22.79 | 4.303 | 5.14 | 0.791
Greninja | 23.52 | 4.657 | 5.08 | 0.569
Captain Falcon | 23.61 | 4.608 | 5.11 | 0.801
23rd | 24.82 | 5.534 | 4.95 | 0.748
24th | 25.0 | 5.46 | 4.87 | 0.807
25th | 25.69 | 5.669 | 4.86 | 0.846
26th | 25.82 | 7.005 | 4.76 | 1.01
28th | 26.63 | 4.32 | 4.71 | 0.644
29th | 28.26 | 4.968 | 4.6 | 0.891
Pits | 28.69 | 6.021 | 4.52 | 0.825
31st | 30.12 | 4.659 | 4.35 | 0.814
32nd | 30.34 | 4.799 | 4.28 | 0.949
Robin | 30.64 | 5.555 | 4.22 | 0.782
Ike | 35.04 | 4.111 | 3.68 | 0.812
35th | 36.77 | 5.097 | 3.62 | 1.004
36th | 37.09 | 6.539 | 3.42 | 0.917
37th | 37.31 | 5.894 | 3.47 | 0.871
38th | 38.59 | 4.908 | 3.37 | 0.842
39th | 39.18 | 5.54 | 3.29 | 0.972
Samus | 40.3 | 5.563 | 2.94 | 1.135
41st | 40.64 | 4.971 | 2.94 | 0.837
42nd | 42.0 | 4.461 | 2.87 | 0.911
43rd | 42.59 | 5.43 | 2.86 | 0.979
44th | 42.87 | 5.45 | 2.84 | 0.994
45th | 44.39 | 5.608 | 2.66 | 1.048
46th | 44.51 | 4.777 | 2.65 | 0.989
47th | 45.51 | 5.31 | 2.5 | 1.094
48th | 45.61 | 4.496 | 2.4 | 0.821
49th | 45.68 | 4.059 | 2.39 | 0.829
Dr. Mario | 47.09 | 4.542 | 2.26 | 0.839
51st | 50.0 | 2.991 | 1.71 | 0.859
52nd | 51.67 | 2.364 | 1.46 | 0.655
53rd | 51.75 | 2.537 | 1.69 | 0.533
54th | 51.93 | 2.531 | 1.43 | 0.579
55th | 52.14 | 3.27 | 1.73 | 1.006
56th | 52.5 | 5.099 | 1.61 | 0.629
Jigglypuff | 53.64 | 1.459 | 1.18 | 0.356

 

[Alphicans]

Aww **** I missed my chance to vote. Sorry guys

 

[Sinister Slush]

Don't worry a lot of people forgot Smashboards exists, like vayseth.

 

[Gunla]

https://smashboards.com/threads/4br-smash-for-wii-u-tier-list-v3.445995/