4.0 Sonic Dream Thread

[MWEX]

What would you all like to see with sonic in 4.0?

Personally, one blast attack without special fall and spin shot's old distance and speed.

 

[Star ☆]

Sonic is perfect in almost every way.

I just want his pre-3.6 up taunt back

 

[Vultron]

Acceleration Buff

Max Run Speed Nerf

Old Sonic Up Smash that still goes to a Gatling Combo

Old Up Taunt

And one whiffed Homing Attack before Special Fall to top it off.

 

[NyTR0]

Random chance of clank on down B, bigger hit box on neutral b for a bit better trades (not so sure about this one at the moment), no stupid special fall on neutral B (could've made it so he can only use it once per air time if it doesn't hit something, make sonic go in a dangerously downward angle as result of no target, or make so it has a lot of end lag when it doesn't target. There was soooo many possibilities but they had to put special fall. That was a horrible idea), fair with a tiiiiny bit less end lag when L cancelled, a better sweetspot on spring jump and some disjoint on his moves cause negative disjoints are bad. This obviously never ever gonna happen but this would be my "dream sonic." Not that I mind how Sonic is now though I guess.

 

[Sonic94]

Sonic needs his dash buffed. It's his gimick, it is supposed to be the reason you play as him. His dash is not even significantly faster then fox's and c. Falcon's. Make it about as fast as the cars in big blue. He should at least be the fastest thing in the game.


There is so much emphasis on dashing with sonic. It's the only thing he has that is unique to him. But C. Falcon's dash is better in every way. He has the best dash dance, best dash grab, and a powerful dash attack. While Sonic's dash dance is mediocre, his dash attack is meh, his dash grab is awful. They should have them make his dash dance longer and buff his dash grab significantly. Right now his dash grab has barely any more range then his normal grab and is among the laggiest non tether grabs in the game. His dash attack is good for spamming but there is nothing easyer to punish then a dash attack spammer. Other then that it's just meh. Eather make his dash attack a combo move or a kill move. Even his up smash sucks so no Gatling combos or dacus eather. For a character that should be dashing a lot his dash options suck.

His walk should be the fastest walk in the game. It should almost be more of a jog then a walk. Sonic is hardly able to stand still for 30 seconds. Why would he walk slower then the other characters? It should feel like he is just on the verge of going into a dash when you hold the trigger all the way.

He should have lower traction to emphasize the momentum physics that made his games unique and to give him better movement options.

All of his spining moves should have a bigger hit box.

Next They need to fix his homing attack. Right now it is just too risky to be worth using. Get rid of special fall, reduce the wiffed ending lag, then it has a chance to be a good combo move like it should be.

Make it so pressing grab during side b grabs instead of having to jump cancel it.

Add a small wind box to his side and down smash along with a visual effect. If that is too elaborite for them to mod then add a shockwave effect to the forward smash that gives it a disjoint effect.

Change his up smash. Just change it.

Make his bair be a fast drop kick similar to squirtles ariels. Good for shuffling

Make his dair strong. A move with that much lag should be a kill move. Plus it looks the part.

Add more special effects to the start of nair and give it a disjointed hit box that shrinks the longer the move is out.

Adjust the animation for fair to look cleaner and tighter but don't change the range just leave it slitghtly disjointed and have the red effect show the true range of the move.

Make it easier to sweetspot the ledge with the spring jump.

Make his pumel very fast
Increase the horizontal knockback on back throw so that it can kill centre stage at around 150 percent.
Decrease the ending lag of up throw.
Decrease the horizontal knock back of forward throw and make it faster. (similar to mk's f throw)
Increase down throws damege significantly and give it more horizontal knock back but less vertical knock back.

You know how sometimes sonic does a little finger waggle when idle? That should be his up taunt.

Also am I the only one that wants a some of Sonic's moves to have a blue fire effect similar to lucario except a bit lighter?


Anyways this would give sonic a unique playstyle that suites the character better and at the same time allow him to be viable against the top tiers. So hopefully at least some of this will come true.

Seriously Thoug Sonic's dash grab is horrible. If you take nothing else from this just please fix his grab and his u smash.

 

[Vultron]

Sounds super fun, but beyond broken!

 

[Star ☆]

I agree, 90% of those changes would make Sonic stupidly overpowered. Sonic is perfect as he is. The only universal complaint seems to be that he falls helpless from Blast Attack.

If they were to make Sonic return to normal state after Blast Attack instead the window for activating the Blast out of Homing would have to be tuned back to a strict window at the start of the move, otherwise players would just Blast Attack if they recognise Homing Attack is not going to target someone.

 

[SpiritofSpeed]

Pretty happy with Sonic as he is now. Maybe a little more strength on Homing Attack, but that's pretty much it.

 

[NyTR0]

I agree, 90% of those changes would make Sonic stupidly overpowered. Sonic is perfect as he is. The only universal complaint seems to be that he falls helpless from Blast Attack.

If they were to make Sonic return to normal state after Blast Attack instead the window for activating the Blast out of Homing would have to be tuned back to a strict window at the start of the move, otherwise players would just Blast Attack if they recognise Homing Attack is not going to target someone.

Actually this is why I would prefer no special fall on HA but BA keeps the special fall.

 

[Lex__]

Pretty happy with Sonic as he is now. Maybe a little more strength on Homing Attack, but that's pretty much it.

Homing atack leads into so many things, and homing attack again, it really is a really great move that needs to be used more.

 

[Vultron]

Homing atack leads into so many things, and homing attack again, it really is a really great move that needs to be used more.

It's really funny against ice climbers, because you can switch between the two and keep them separated with it.

 

[Krumpberry]

Never dash grab as Sonic. Either always JC your grabs or go for gatling grabs, but that's it.

 

[Zenokidz]

Sonic as he currently is feels pretty darn good. If anything i would like to have the old spin shot distance returned.

 

[Solharath]

Sonic should special fall out of HA/BA after exhausting his Double Jump. It should also exhaust his Double jump if he does use it.

Seriously, right now it's braindead to fight Sonic's Homing Attack off-stage to anyone who knows the matchup. Trying to gimp Fox/Falco? Hope you're already up a stock because all they have to do is react to your Homing Attack with an airdodge and now you're both dead, which is absurdly more in their favor than yours(Sonic's lack of power leads to extremely bad CC situations against them). And considering the angles and lack of fall speed on Sonic, blast attack isn't really a viable alternative.

I'd like to see Ftilt fixed(Sonic sinks into the ground when using it), I'd love to see UpB fixed(Sonic sinks downward when doing the aerial version, making escaping combos harder), honestly I'd love to see UpB returned to 3.02 speed, if only to homogenize it with GnW's even slightly(GnW can still jump, attack, and airdodge(?), is faster and has a useful hitbox for starting combos/finishers, and he goes higher). Also, an animation change to Spring to indicate when you can act so newcomers can see that sort of thing across all his moves(Well, SideB and UpB, although I would not mind seeing such a thing for BA/HA).

For Sonic, unfortunately while I do think with the most tech-capable hands he can actually manage himself against the big guns, it takes a lot more work for him to do so because he simply has a worst moveset when compared to every other character. Uair is like Fox's, but worse(Since 3.02). Bair is like... well god it's just worse than most characters(weaker than ZSS bair while covering the same area, much slower, can't be used to space very effectively due to low fall speed/startup/poor GTFO options on landing). They're still fine moves, useful moves(except USmash, which has one utility that is 100% matchup dependent and requires poor/no DI), but they lack the sheen of many of his opponents. You'd think the fastest thing alive would have stronger legs.

For other things:
High Priority:
BKB lowered on USmash, KBG increased on USmash/DSmash.
First hit Uair angle changed to link better(where have I heard that before? Ah right, the changelog in 3.5 where it was changed to never link again or be anywhere near useful).

Mid Priority:
KBG increased on Bair sweetspot
KBG decreased on bair sourspot
KB Angle changed on body hitbox for bair(The Roy Sweetspot area) to aid in combos
Tipper Uair KBG increased
Foot hitbox made into disjoint on Utilt to work as an antiair option against Nairs(To allow Sonic to combat pressure). To be honest it may already be disjointed, but I can never tell as I've only ever traded with Fox/Sheik nair.
Lower landing lag on whiffted HA/BA, especially when you bounce on the ground.

Low Priority:
Speed up UpTaunt animation, return IASA frames when extending it
Holding down DTaunt for 10 seconds results in dazed state.
Dair autocancel decreased by 2 frames
Autocancel startup window on fair increased. I cannot count the number of times a combo in a tournament set was cut short because I was rising through a platform and initiated a fair, only for the collision to think I'm landing and force Fair landing lag. This happens with Uair as well but has only ever auto-cancelled the startup for that move, so while it kills the combo, I'm not stuck in meaningless lag like I am with Fair.
Bthrow BKB increased, KBG decreased(think Ness Fthrow)
Fthrow KBG increased, angle changed to compensate.
Fthrow endlag decreased.

In closing, there is a lot to love about Sonic, but right now there are so many restrictions on the way he plays and moves that are placed artificially on the character. The PMDT tells us to explore the use of a move, then makes the failure for using it catastrophic(especially when said move has nothing guaranteed on followup, so has a poor risk/reward feature). In my opinion(this is not fact, but I feel strongly that this is the case), if Sonic remains the way he is now, he'll only ever be okay, and to be honest "okay" has no competitive future as the metagame develops.

Spoiler

Join me next time when I take a look at Charizard and how one change ruined an entire character's utility.

EDIT: Oh right, and one more thing.

TOP PRIORITY. IF NOTHING ELSE DO THIS.
- Please give Sonic a not-garbage green color.

 

[Luk]

..snip..
Trying to gimp Fox/Falco? Hope you're already up a stock because all they have to do is react to your Homing Attack with an airdodge and now you're both dead, which is absurdly more in their favor than yours(Sonic's lack of power leads to extremely bad CC situations against them).

Actually just as a heads up, this isn't strictly true if you're very careful with your timing. The timing of HA is just enough shorter than Fox/Falco's up-b that if you wait with your finger on the button, the instant you see flame, hit it and you'll bop them just in time (unless you're too far away of course). And if you see an air dodge, just recover and let them plummet.

 

[Luk]

I'm still very much a scrub so consider the perspective (hey, casual/noob's opinions/perspectives matter too )

Up smash feels useless. Any time that I would have reached for it, I go for a SH nair -> follow them -> uair instead. It just feels like a tool for whom every possible purpose there already exists some other tool that works better. Not really sure what to do to improve it, something with knockback I guess?

I kind of wish u-tilt had a little better reach. The number of times I've d-tilted to pop them up and then wiffed with an u-tilt follow-up because they weren't right on top of me is frustrating.

Better burst speed (if his top speed needs to take a hit for balance that's fine I suppose).

Less lag in general. It should not take so long to DJ after f-airing. And the landing lag on u-air is just really bad. His tilts are all pretty quick, though I wish d-tilt came out a bit sooner (I irrationally love going for jab-jab-d-tilt but it almost never connects).

Whiffed HA/BA going into special fall sucks. I'll just parrot what others have said. If the goal was to get people to stop spamming it as a recovery tool, there were so many other better ways to do that without making it so dang risky to use in the off-stage game. I guess Sonic's off-stage game is already pretty good though so giving us back another risk-free option is kind of lame.

Another thing that I'm not sure how/if there even is a solution. The thing I love about Sonic is how strongly I feel in control of the character at all times. The one exception to this is after up-bing. Being able to attack out of up-b is really nice and all, but it's still a stupidly vulnerable state to be in. I know the sheer length of his vertical recovery needs to be counter-balanced somehow. But I would almost rather give up 20% of the vertical recovery of spring just to be able to air-dodge out of it again.

Old up taunt back.

Super Saiyan Sonic alt costume.

The sound clip from Smash 4 for his side taunt. "Sonic Speed!" (J/K please don't do this).

As an aside, I notice two different perspectives in this thread. Is this supposed to be "what things would make Sonic awesome in 4.0" or "what I think they should do to Sonic in 4.0". Obviously as a Sonic player I'd love all kinds of stupid things but long term I also don't want a bunch of people taking up Sonic just because he's broken. I think as he is now is pretty solid. I think at this point he's fairly well balanced. I wish he was a little less laggy (he's the fastest thing around, how does he take so F***ing long to do a new thing after f-airing?), but I get it.

 

[NyTR0]

I'm still very much a scrub so consider the perspective (hey, casual/noob's opinions/perspectives matter too )

Up smash feels useless. Any time that I would have reached for it, I go for a SH nair -> follow them -> uair instead. It just feels like a tool for whom every possible purpose there already exists some other tool that works better. Not really sure what to do to improve it, something with knockback I guess?

I kind of wish u-tilt had a little better reach. The number of times I've d-tilted to pop them up and then wiffed with an u-tilt follow-up because they weren't right on top of me is frustrating.

Better burst speed (if his top speed needs to take a hit for balance that's fine I suppose).

Less lag in general. It should not take so long to DJ after f-airing. And the landing lag on u-air is just really bad. His tilts are all pretty quick, though I wish d-tilt came out a bit sooner (I irrationally love going for jab-jab-d-tilt but it almost never connects).

Whiffed HA/BA going into special fall sucks. I'll just parrot what others have said. If the goal was to get people to stop spamming it as a recovery tool, there were so many other better ways to do that without making it so dang risky to use in the off-stage game. I guess Sonic's off-stage game is already pretty good though so giving us back another risk-free option is kind of lame.

Another thing that I'm not sure how/if there even is a solution. The thing I love about Sonic is how strongly I feel in control of the character at all times. The one exception to this is after up-bing. Being able to attack out of up-b is really nice and all, but it's still a stupidly vulnerable state to be in. I know the sheer length of his vertical recovery needs to be counter-balanced somehow. But I would almost rather give up 20% of the vertical recovery of spring just to be able to air-dodge out of it again.

Old up taunt back.

Super Saiyan Sonic alt costume.

The sound clip from Smash 4 for his side taunt. "Sonic Speed!" (J/K please don't do this).

As an aside, I notice two different perspectives in this thread. Is this supposed to be "what things would make Sonic awesome in 4.0" or "what I think they should do to Sonic in 4.0". Obviously as a Sonic player I'd love all kinds of stupid things but long term I also don't want a bunch of people taking up Sonic just because he's broken. I think as he is now is pretty solid. I think at this point he's fairly well balanced. I wish he was a little less laggy (he's the fastest thing around, how does he take so F***ing long to do a new thing after f-airing?), but I get it.

The slowness and laggy stuff. I feel you so much on this. For the "fastest thing alive" he has some pretty slow moves compared to a lot of characters and lack of acceleration is almost just as bad. I wouldn't care if every hit he did, did 1% if it meant that he could actually be "fast" and do "fast" combos. His aerials are still slow even when L canceled. I think his up air and nair should at least be able to be faster to act out when L canceled similar to how almost everyone else has their nairs. I find myself getting hit in the air cause the hit box on an aerial took too long to come out (add that to the fact that he has no priority to begin with) but like mentioned by a lot of people Sonic is fine currently

 

[Solharath]

Actually just as a heads up, this isn't strictly true if you're very careful with your timing. The timing of HA is just enough shorter than Fox/Falco's up-b that if you wait with your finger on the button, the instant you see flame, hit it and you'll bop them just in time (unless you're too far away of course). And if you see an air dodge, just recover and let them plummet.

Okay. Okay no. Self-proclaimed scrubness aside, you cannot wait until you see the Up B.

I realize after my SDs on stream at SMYM 16 I might be taken a little less seriously, but blah blah blah john john I still have a better understating of this character than someone who is literally spouting off something that they simply feel. What I said is STRICTLY TRUE. Sonic's homing ability ends on frame 25 - he hasn't even fired off yet, while Fox is surrounded by an active, continuous hitbox from frame 20-22-24-etc. This means he is safe from HA even if inputted AFTER Sonic starts his attack. Best case scenario you trade, which means you have to give it up to luck(and guess what that luck is skewed out of your favor because the hitbox on Firefox startup disjointedly covers the angle in which you are most likely to strike from. I mean, you have to be very close to Fox in the first place because of the distance you have to travel.

And 'Let them airdodge'? Airdodge startup is on frame 3 and is intangible for 26 frames. He has a very breathable window in every case, and if you're going for a low percent gimp with HA he can just double jump and air dodge to recover back on stage. Right now, Homing Attack is a terrible move to gimp with because the risk/reward is so out of our favor as our opponents learn the matchup, and it becomes entirely read based to, eventually, useful on opponents who sleep on Sonic.

Falco on the other hand just gets bopped but no one is arguing that. Also Wolf's startup on UpB is 22 frames, so, again, you cannot wait for him either.

Homing Attack Considerations:
Allow Blast Attack(and no-target Homing Attack) to be somewhat angle-able, such as Wario's Aerial Side-B. Holding down returns you to Brawl's missed HA angle, holding up goes horizontal(with some movement downward). I could see still causing special fall no matter what on this change, but I'd argue if you're really hung up on truly gimping the utility then I'd enter a caveat that Blast Attack sends you into Special Fall, where Homing Attack does not.

But seriously, PMDT. If you're watching and reading and whatever, please make Uair link better. Like, actually get a Sonic main to actively test instead of just putting it on paper, because that was obviously what happened with 3.5's change. It does not link better, it is insanely easy to simply fall out of the move due to it's low speed between hits. If an opponent is in the middle of a combo and has horizontal trajectory, they will fall out of the move with no need for SDI. Sonic merely sails on through, catching one hit and finishing up the other someplace else. For something so much slower, weaker, and with less utility than Fox's, on a character with MUCH less guaranteed setups, this is a hard pill to swallow as to why this wasn't improved between patches.

@ Luk , As for the direction of the thread, "what would be awesome" vs. "what should be done," my thought process for this is "why not both?" Awesome should be balanced, because it feels awesome pulling off an impressive movestring that actually takes time to pull off, with good reads and character knowledge. 'Awesome' doesn't mean 'give me the tools to win for free'. It gets boring, for both you and the opponent. Awesome is balance. Awesome is seeing a bad matchup and knowing you still have the tools to not be forced to counterpick to survive(See: Luigi).

Sonic is okay. Sonic is 'fine'. He is not awesome. And until a Sonic Steps It Up, with absurd amount of technical skill that is needed to give him even ground, it's not ever gonna feel that way. But hey, Lucky and Junebug like playing him a little bit. I gave Lucky a lot of input at SMYM 16 about the Sonic matchup and what it takes to play Sonic. He looked really interested to give him a go, so 4.0 Sonic Dream is Lucky taking a National with Sonic.

 

[Luk]

Okay. Okay no. Self-proclaimed scrubness aside, you cannot wait until you see the Up B.

I realize after my SDs on stream at SMYM 16 I might be taken a little less seriously, but blah blah blah john john I still have a better understating of this character than someone who is literally spouting off something that they simply feel. What I said is STRICTLY TRUE. Sonic's homing ability ends on frame 25 - he hasn't even fired off yet, while Fox is surrounded by an active, continuous hitbox from frame 20-22-24-etc. This means he is safe from HA even if inputted AFTER Sonic starts his attack. Best case scenario you trade, which means you have to give it up to luck(and guess what that luck is skewed out of your favor because the hitbox on Firefox startup disjointedly covers the angle in which you are most likely to strike from. I mean, you have to be very close to Fox in the first place because of the distance you have to travel.

Huh, my bad. I mostly play Falco's and don't usually manage to get the gimp on Fox. Guess I know why now.

And 'Let them airdodge'? Airdodge startup is on frame 3 and is intangible for 26 frames. He has a very breathable window in every case, and if you're going for a low percent gimp with HA he can just double jump and air dodge to recover back on stage.
Right now, Homing Attack is a terrible move to gimp with because the risk/reward is so out of our favor as our opponents learn the matchup, and it becomes entirely read based to, eventually, useful on opponents who sleep on Sonic.

I'm confused, if they air-dodge they plummet no? Or do you mean if they're near enough the ledge. Ok, I guess I tend to use HA on spacies less as a gimping tool and more as a "they're sufficiently far from the stage, now let's keep them there" kind of tool. Which is probably as much me being lazy as opposed to going for something more certain like a nair or something.

Falco on the other hand just gets bopped but no one is arguing that. Also Wolf's startup on UpB is 22 frames, so, again, you cannot wait for him either.

As I said, I mostly play a Falco and not many Foxes. Also note that I never said anything about Wolf.

@ Luk , As for the direction of the thread, "what would be awesome" vs. "what should be done," my thought process for this is "why not both?" Awesome should be balanced, because it feels awesome pulling off an impressive movestring that actually takes time to pull off, with good reads and character knowledge. 'Awesome' doesn't mean 'give me the tools to win for free'. It gets boring, for both you and the opponent. Awesome is balance. Awesome is seeing a bad matchup and knowing you still have the tools to not be forced to counterpick to survive(See: Luigi).

That was kind of the conclusion I found myself coming to as well. I just noticed that there seemed to be a lot of lines in this thread like "I think Sonic 4.0 would be awesome with <broken feature X> but I understand that would break him and actually make him the opposite of awesome for all the reasons that you mentioned".

Sonic is okay. Sonic is 'fine'. He is not awesome. And until a Sonic Steps It Up, with absurd amount of technical skill that is needed to give him even ground, it's not ever gonna feel that way.

Sadly, I play Sonic mostly because he's the character that I have the most fun with

For those times where I just really want to get the win, who would you say is most like Sonic to pick up secondarily (like Sonic in the sense of being strongly movement/combo oriented).

 

[NyTR0]

Huh, my bad. I mostly play Falco's and don't usually manage to get the gimp on Fox. Guess I know why now.



I'm confused, if they air-dodge they plummet no? Or do you mean if they're near enough the ledge. Ok, I guess I tend to use HA on spacies less as a gimping tool and more as a "they're sufficiently far from the stage, now let's keep them there" kind of tool. Which is probably as much me being lazy as opposed to going for something more certain like a nair or something.



As I said, I mostly play a Falco and not many Foxes. Also note that I never said anything about Wolf.



That was kind of the conclusion I found myself coming to as well. I just noticed that there seemed to be a lot of lines in this thread like "I think Sonic 4.0 would be awesome with <broken feature X> but I understand that would break him and actually make him the opposite of awesome for all the reasons that you mentioned".



Sadly, I play Sonic mostly because he's the character that I have the most fun with

For those times where I just really want to get the win, who would you say is most like Sonic to pick up secondarily (like Sonic in the sense of being strongly movement/combo oriented).

Squirtle. It's the closest thing.

 

[Ariyo]

I'd like to see a small range buff.

3.0 utilt and a smidget of range on fair (or just cut the hurtboxes down a bit) and he's fine imo.

If it's really necessary, I'd like to see UpB given a better sweetspot ability and its range nerfed to compensate.

Also, I like the current HA. Making people airdodge in their attempts to suicide with you is too much fun. BA could be changed a bit though.

 

[NyTR0]

I'd like to see a small range buff.

3.0 utilt and a smidget of range on fair (or just cut the hurtboxes down a bit) and he's fine imo.

If it's really necessary, I'd like to see UpB given a better sweetspot ability and its range nerfed to compensate.

Also, I like the current HA. Making people airdodge in their attempts to suicide with you is too much fun. BA could be changed a bit though.

We got the range but what we lack is disjoint/priority. Take Mario for example. He's the complete opposite in the sense that he has no range but actually has some nice disjoint/priority. Really wish Sonic had some nice priority. I seriously can't think of anyone else with as bad priority in the whole game. On a side note, I wish they could remove the hurt boxes on Sonic's hair or at least decrease it. It's so pointless to have there. It's hair!

 

[Solharath]

Eeeeh now y'all are getting into territory I don't agree with unless you look towards specifics. Vagueness as 'He just needs (aerial disjoint)/(more damage on grounded moves)' gives the PMDT nothing to test and just comes across as wanty. Hence why I went with specifics - things that generally should be looked into and worked with.

There is no need to give and take with buffs and nerfs. Sonic's UpB needs to be looked into, as it is not okay currently, when compared to other moves of it's range/utility(GnW, Snake, Marth, Lucario, Zelda). Only GnW has an obvious analogue in every way it functions, but it outperforms on all cylinders. So you shouldn't need to ask for a sweetspot buff and back it up with a range nerf. Regardless of that, a range nerf may be a buff when comparing it to mid-percent combos, and allowing us to more easily sweetspot on stages such as Yoshi's Island.

If I had any head for BrawlBox or whatever is used to change movesets and attributes, I'd look into these myself.

 

[JFyst]

my answer to everything here is don't be a bittttttcccccccccchhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh.

 

[NyTR0]

Ur so report -_-

 

[JFyst]

I mean it's litterally that, we have maybe 6 months with a game with 40 different match-ups? And after very little time, after very little meta advancement, sonic isn't good enough. I'm not going to lie and say I read through all of sol's walls or many other comments, but Jesus people, if yoshi can work in melee, your telling me through the little game time we've had experimenting the 3.5 era ( I lump 3.6 in the same area of 3.5) which is sometime in January, you've looked into every MU you have trouble with as much as 20gx has with their melee MU's? If you give enough of a **** to push this character meta that far and then tell me it impossible then it's fine, But I hate seeing people ask for balance changes because they can't succeed.

 

[NyTR0]

Nah but Sonic is fine now. This a "dream Sonic thread." Either way.

 

[Ariyo]

Eeeeh now y'all are getting into territory I don't agree with unless you look towards specifics. Vagueness as 'He just needs (aerial disjoint)/(more damage on grounded moves)' gives the PMDT nothing to test and just comes across as wanty. Hence why I went with specifics - things that generally should be looked into and worked with.

There is no need to give and take with buffs and nerfs. Sonic's UpB needs to be looked into, as it is not okay currently, when compared to other moves of it's range/utility(GnW, Snake, Marth, Lucario, Zelda). Only GnW has an obvious analogue in every way it functions, but it outperforms on all cylinders. So you shouldn't need to ask for a sweetspot buff and back it up with a range nerf. Regardless of that, a range nerf may be a buff when comparing it to mid-percent combos, and allowing us to more easily sweetspot on stages such as Yoshi's Island.

If I had any head for BrawlBox or whatever is used to change movesets and attributes, I'd look into these myself.

Yet the character is fine where he is. These things should come off as "wanty." He doesn't need anything imo, at least pertaining to his current character design. What I'm asking for is reliability.

But if they plan to make Sonic more intuitive sometime down the road, that's another thing.

 

[Lex__]

My 4.0 dream would have been @Star ☆ being in the PMDT but like most dreams they were shattered

 

[Avro-Arrow]

Uair buff, utilt buff, spinshot range buff. Dsmash should be a little better (kgb). His dashdance should not be so much weaker than fox/falcon/wolf/marth. Uair for finishing off stocks, utilt for antiair, dashdance cuz he'd be hilariously broken. I feel like the cool down on dash dance is too much and weakens his defensive options. Less lag in fair to make it a lot more versatile would be nice. I wouldn't really need anything at all because he's still a decently viable character but the movement buff would be so significant ant that he would need few if any biffs to be a close to top tier character imo. If he didn't get mobility buffs then uair utilt would be dandy.

Oh yeah and upsmash sucks @$$

 

[EmptySky00]

Ignore this, smashboards ****ery.

 

[EmptySky00]

.... I've never seen congregation of autism like this.

Sonic needs his dash buffed. It's his gimick, it is supposed to be the reason you play as him. His dash is not even significantly faster then fox's and c. Falcon's. Make it about as fast as the cars in big blue. He should at least be the fastest thing in the game.


There is so much emphasis on dashing with sonic. It's the only thing he has that is unique to him. But C. Falcon's dash is better in every way. He has the best dash dance, best dash grab, and a powerful dash attack. While Sonic's dash dance is mediocre, his dash attack is meh, his dash grab is awful. They should have them make his dash dance longer and buff his dash grab significantly. Right now his dash grab has barely any more range then his normal grab and is among the laggiest non tether grabs in the game. His dash attack is good for spamming but there is nothing easyer to punish then a dash attack spammer. Other then that it's just meh. Eather make his dash attack a combo move or a kill move. Even his up smash sucks so no Gatling combos or dacus eather. For a character that should be dashing a lot his dash options suck.

His walk should be the fastest walk in the game. It should almost be more of a jog then a walk. Sonic is hardly able to stand still for 30 seconds. Why would he walk slower then the other characters? It should feel like he is just on the verge of going into a dash when you hold the trigger all the way.

Do you even realize that my character's run speed isn't even the difference between Sonic's and Falcon's? Yet it's not significantly better. Ugh. Way to uphold the stereotype on people who main this character.

 

[jtm94]

Solharath
I actually just learned that interaction with air dodge today vs Sonic using Wolf. Unfortunately in a lot of situations Falco still can't make it back due to his short UpB distance. All the interaction does is punish you for losing and reward you for being in the lead. Being in the lead against a spacie as Sonic is incredibly powerful in the MU because your opportunities off stage open up and become less risky as the death of both characters is good for the character in the lead. Regardless of homing attack Sonic still has drop zone follow ups on every spacie off of throws at the ledge with uthrow or dthrow unless at low %s. You could just not homing attack, but drop with falling weak nair, late dair, or rising fair and still recover. I do know that running off stage and immediately fast falling to fair is not something you can recover from.

Facing the character constantly I hate homing attack, but I think blast attack is cool beans. I'd be okay if it didn't put him into special fall, but as Star said I would like it to be a smaller early window where you input the blast attack as to not let it turn into a crazy option select where you see the spacie air dodge, then input blast attack to still live.

 

[NyTR0]

It is true though. He does need some fixing on the dash. No point in having so much speed that you'll probably never see so might as well tone it down and in return give him a better dash. Then again, I could care less. I don't spend much of my time dash dancing to begin with.

 

[Star ☆]

The issue here is what you're using the dash for.

Sonic's initial dash distance/animation length is by far one of the longest in the game so it's more useful for invading space and baiting attacks in threat zones before quickly running out. Other characters like Falcon and Fox cannot do this as well as their dashes, while having higher acceleration, do not yield nearly the same distance that Sonic does.

People seem to complain that it's Sonic's acceleration that makes it harder to tech chase people with than characters like Falcon but it is really a multitude of factors. Sonic's down throw in particular places the opponent at a range on stage at low-mid percents which is usually around the peak of his dash length, this means that Sonic has to pivot if he wants to cancel the dash animation into anything other than his jump cancel options or dash attack/specials. Falcon, however, has a down throw that places the opponent at a great range for him after wavedashing in place or forward, allowing him to appropriately capitalise on any tech option, this is aided especially by his shorter dash length.

I can understand why people find it frustrating to tech chase with Sonic compared to others but changing stuff like dash length and down throw trajectory would ruin other aspects of his character. It is clear that Sonic cannot tech chase as well characters like Falcon, Charizard, Sheik etc but it is still one of his stronger points over other characters. Admittedly, I am not the best at tech chasing and my analysis may not be completely astute but I hope you guys can understand where I'm coming from.

 

[jtm94]

I disagree with you about him being weaker at tech chasing. Tech chasing is more run speed than dash speed. That's why Sheik can still tech chase despite her awful dash length. You can commit to a direction they are thrown, crouch aka treedash, then react to what they do with a run speed fast enough to catch their tech. After enormous amount of time spent facing Sonic I have never felt that his movement did not facilitate good tech chasing. My buddy often has an issue with surpassing my techs due to his speed and has started to delay his reaction or pivot grabbing to aid his timing. Sonic's dash acceleration isn't the best, but it is not bad. To make up for the acceleration you can do longer strokes of dash in anticipation of a tech direction and then launch yourself out of the end of it in order to reach the longer techs in the game.

Honestly you can still tech chase with a character as slow as Zelda with some conditioning and the right circumstances. As long as you have a run speed Roy-tier or better then it is probably conducive to tech chasing. Even more so if you have a throw that promotes it.

 

[InfinityCollision]

C. Falcon's dash is better in every way.

For about 5 or 6 frames, sure. That's roughly when Sonic catches up to Falcon, and by the time he transitions to run he's pulling ahead. I'd also argue that Sonic's shorter dash->run time is a blessing in this case, given that you have access to run canceled options sooner and can utilize crouch dashing if you'd prefer to maintain your dashdance over a wider distance.

 

[Star ☆]

I disagree with you about him being weaker at tech chasing. Tech chasing is more run speed than dash speed. That's why Sheik can still tech chase despite her awful dash length. You can commit to a direction they are thrown, crouch aka treedash, then react to what they do with a run speed fast enough to catch their tech. After enormous amount of time spent facing Sonic I have never felt that his movement did not facilitate good tech chasing. My buddy often has an issue with surpassing my techs due to his speed and has started to delay his reaction or pivot grabbing to aid his timing. Sonic's dash acceleration isn't the best, but it is not bad. To make up for the acceleration you can do longer strokes of dash in anticipation of a tech direction and then launch yourself out of the end of it in order to reach the longer techs in the game.

Honestly you can still tech chase with a character as slow as Zelda with some conditioning and the right circumstances. As long as you have a run speed Roy-tier or better then it is probably conducive to tech chasing. Even more so if you have a throw that promotes it.

I think it's his down throw that really seperates how Sonic tech chases as apposed to characters like Shiek/Falcon/Charizard etc, as mentioned my post. Sonic can still tech chase out of other options, such as his meteor fair or dair spike above the stage but does not get the same mileage out of a grab in terms of tech chasing as the aforementioned characters do as it requires him to foxtrot at least once to reach the opponent's landing position rather than 20GX wavedashes that Falcon does or Sheik's walking. His extreme run speed allows him to react later in tech rolls, however, which means that he has more flexibility in his timing. I think Sonic's tech chasing game is "different" rather than strictly worse. That's why I stressed the notion that Sonic players struggle with it as they try to do it in ways that other characters do.

By the way, I don't entirely agree with the notion that Sonic is bad at tech chasing overall either way like other Sonic players have said, I said that at the end of my post. I'm trying to highlight where Sonic does shine in his tech chasing game as to encourage other Sonic players to experiment with their options.

 

[MWEX]

*continues eating popcorn*

 

[Star ☆]

This isn't an argument. This is worthwhile discussion and helps us improve as players. jtm94 brought up some very good points and I'm glad I was able to become aware of them. I encourage you all to provide your own insight on what we're talking about rather than create meaningless responses not unlike the post above this one.