3LT - Baton Rouge, LA, 5/10/08

[Mocha19]

well u can add eddies 2 cousins, freddy and young dylan and maybe stephanie to the list :0

 

[FakeGeorge]

Cool stuff. Also, I've added the DQ rules. Basically, I'm gonna use the Mages DQ rule: it's a 2/4/6 minute window after your match is called. At 4 minutes late, you lose your first game in the match. At 6 minutes late, you lose the set.

 

[-Ran]

George, are the Count Picks/banned stages final?

Everyone I've talked to is shocked about Green Greens not being banned.

 

[FakeGeorge]

They aren't final yet.

Just explain why Green Greens should be banned, and I'll consider it. If someone can provide a convincing argument as to why it should be banned, then I'll ban it. This goes for any stage.

 

[Battousai780]

They aren't final yet.

Just explain why Green Greens should be banned, and I'll consider it. If someone can provide a convincing argument as to why it should be banned, then I'll ban it. This goes for any stage.

Isnt that the one with the BOMBS?

 

[-Ran]

Green Greens
------------
Falling Explosive Boxes that spawn below the true ceiling of the map, about two or so inches on a 42 inch tv.
Random Falling Explosive Boxes in two choke points of the map.
Explosive Boxes that are triggered by any projectile or attack.
Explosive Boxes that are triggered by getting head butted.
Explosive Boxes that make it exceedingly easy to camp.
Falling Fruit from the tree in the background that allows for healing.
Falling fruit that allows for projectile use.

Overall, Green Greens radically alters the flow of the game.

 

[Sudai]

I would like to see Pokemon Stadium (Melee) moved to Counterpicks.

-Windmill is broken now.
-Ledges are even more effed up than they used to be.
-Fire and Rock stage allow wall infinites (wasn't a big problem in melee, but in Brawl, there are a lot more wall infinites that are escapable only by really good SDIing. Pika Rapid Jabs[just hold "A" in this one instead of actually having to have fast fingers.], ROB DTilt [tip trips them and normally pushes back, but wall stops this], MetaKnight DTilt[same as ROB], DDD DThrow infinite, Marth's Grab infinite [Holding L/R and spamming A so you shield grab right as they break out] works on most characters with a wall instead of just Ness/Lucas, ect. I can provide more if needed)

I'd like to see Lylat in counterpick as well, but I don't have as much evidence for the reason as I do with PHMNStadium 1, so I'll skip it.

I'd like to see Frigate Orephon moved back into counterpick.

-Yes in a loud tournament, you can not hear the siren, but unless you're blind (in which case you shouldn't be playing anyway), you'll be able to see the flashing alarm lights before the stage flips which is more than enough warning.

 

[sHy)(gUy]

WHAA!! u banned pictochat!?!? blasephemy.... im not going

 

[TheDownSyndromeKid]

This is such stupidity....if you don't want the stage to play any part in it. Just play FD and Battlefield only. No moving parts, no change, no stage factor whatsoever.

If you do, then you're a fool for thinking that you can draw an effective line on what is "too much".

 

[jiovanni007]

I would like to see Pokemon Stadium (Melee) moved to Counterpicks.

-Windmill is broken now.
-Ledges are even more effed up than they used to be.
-Fire and Rock stage allow wall infinites (wasn't a big problem in melee, but in Brawl, there are a lot more wall infinites that are escapable only by really good SDIing. Pika Rapid Jabs[just hold "A" in this one instead of actually having to have fast fingers.], ROB DTilt [tip trips them and normally pushes back, but wall stops this], MetaKnight DTilt[same as ROB], DDD DThrow infinite, Marth's Grab infinite [Holding L/R and spamming A so you shield grab right as they break out] works on most characters with a wall instead of just Ness/Lucas, ect. I can provide more if needed)

I'd like to see Lylat in counterpick as well, but I don't have as much evidence for the reason as I do with PHMNStadium 1, so I'll skip it.

I'd like to see Frigate Orephon moved back into counterpick.

-Yes in a loud tournament, you can not hear the siren, but unless you're blind (in which case you shouldn't be playing anyway), you'll be able to see the flashing alarm lights before the stage flips which is more than enough warning.

I'll help you on Lylat Cruise Sudai

Lylat Cruise should be counterpick only:
-Edges prefer characters that don't have to aim and forms a deadly pseudo-lip when it tilts that can auto gimp some characters(i.e. Diddy, Marth, Spacies, Pikachu, Ness, Lucas, Zelda and a few others) and some characters have the automatic advantage when recovering because of a longer animation (i.e. Kirby, Meta, Snake, Pit, GaW, and Jiggs)
-The platforms are much more like obstacles due to them all being the same level. This gives the automatic advantage to taller characters who can use quick tilts to start aerial attacks (i.e. Zelda, Snake, Marth, Ike, Bowser, and DK to name a few). By picking a taller character, smaller characters are forced to act in a predictable way because they physically cannot hit their opponents without at least a short hop.
-People may argue against this point, but the background is outright distracting. Final Destination is about the most extreme a level should be. Lylat Cruise not only has the dark to bright background of FD, but their are also frickin space battles going on in the background. Some people may view this as trivial, but it can sometimes be difficult to focus on the battle when there is such an elaborate fight scene going on in the background.

This level screams counterpick to me. Myself being a Kirby main, I have witnessed the travesties of Lylat cruise. The lack of options to approach a character that is camping on the platform when playing as a short character is appalling. It makes perfect sense that Lylat Cruise should be a counterpick because a large portion of the cast is automatically disadvantaged when it is picked.

To go ahead and shut down additional arguments, Battlefield has one of its platforms higher than the others that can provide refuge, Smashville's platform is mobile and therefore not always a factor, and Yoshi's Island's platform tilts and is not always a factor.

 

[Sudai]

I'm gonna go ahead aaaannnnnnnnddddddddddddddd bump this.

 

[Battousai780]

Being a Marth main, I LOVE Lylat. :]

 

[FakeGeorge]

Okay, so I'm looking at arguments for four stages: Green Greens, Frigate Orpheon, Pokemon Stadium (Melee), and Lylat Cruise.

Green Greens

This one has been borderline, even back in Melee.

The stage providing projectiles (the apples) is not a problem. Several character can produce their own throwing items, and every character can catch these items. The healing is minor, only a few percent. G&W can produce apples which heal for 4% with his hammer. I don't think that either of these factors are terribly influential, due to the frequency of the apples and their fairly short lifespan. I'd imagine that the apples wouldn't come up more than once or twice in a match and at specific time intervals. I'll look into this soon.

It seems like the bomb boxes are the bigger problem. The fact that boxes fall is not random. If the little block wall is whole, then no boxes fall. The random would be whether or not a falling box is a bomb or not. I guess it is possible for a bomb box to spawn as someone is going for an aerial, and a bomb spawns KOing that player. Otherwise, I don't see a problem with the bombs. Camping is an okay strategy, though many players do not like it. We all know attacks blow up bombs, so we can be careful when they are already in place. Also, the bombs are limited to specific portions of the map.

Now, one thing that you failed to mention, but now that I think about it may be a bigger problem than bombs is the presence of walls. I think permanent or semi-permanent/ destructible walls are a serious problem. If one could set up one of the numerous jab infinites against these walls, then that would be a problem. I'm going to test this, and if I can jab infinite (say with Kirby), then I may go ahead and move this to the banned list.

Frigate Orpheon

I forgot about the visual cues, so I'll move this back.

Pokemon Stadium (Melee)

First off, could someone elaborate on the Windmill? I know that characters can no longer pass through it, but I'd like to hear how people feel that this is a problem.

Second, FD has bad ledges. How are these worse?

The walls, again, have been my biggest concern because of these infinites. However, there is notice of the stage change, and it is temporary based on time. Shadow Moses is a concern because the walls are temporary based on damage, so a properly spaced infinite would go on forever (or long enough for our purposes). However, in Poke, the stage changes after some time. I'm not sure how long it takes between stage transformations, but I'd guess around a minute.

I guess I personally don't think the windmill/ ledges are that bad, just different, and I think that the walls are not a problem here. Still, I'm not sure if I've really thought out the Fire stage. I guess in part, I don't want to see the stage list immediately condensed, especially the neutrals. We have so many stages, and right now, I only feel like ~6 are okay for neutral. I'd like to give stages a chance in my first Brawl tourney. However, I know that there have been many tournaments for Brawl so far, and stages have been played. I'll look around and see what other tournaments have done with Poke.

Lylat Cruise

Okay, I have some questions about this one:

-Is it impossible for some characters to recover from below the plane of the stage when it is fully tilted? If it is possible, but maybe a little harder, then I don't see a problem. Now, if it is possible but unreasonably difficult, then there is a problem.

-I really don't get how even platforms are a problem. You state that they are more like obstacles, but can you tell me how? Also, every stage favors some characters over others. Take Dreamland 64 in Melee. That's a stage that Peach and Jigglypuff would counterpick on space animals. Marth liked Yoshi's Story, and Falco FD. Those were all neutrals. I know this isn't Melee, but the same idea should apply. No stage is perfectly neutral. Maybe if you can better explain what you mean about the platforms being a problem.

About the background, I've never found it to be distracting. Even if it is, that's something which affects the player and not the character. Maybe this is something to be concerned about, but not in the neutral/ counterpick sense. If a player cannot focus during a match because of a game, then why should the player win in said game?

Still, I think I need more info on this one.

 

[SetsumA]

ill be there...olimar and peach <3

-eet

 

[-Ran]

I'll also be bringing a Wii and TV. + Brawl

I plan on setting it up for free play prior to the Smash tournaments.

 

[Sudai]

Frigate Orpheon

I forgot about the visual cues, so I'll move this back.

Thanks. Got my counterpick back~ : )

Pokemon Stadium (Melee)

First off, could someone elaborate on the Windmill? I know that characters can no longer pass through it, but I'd like to hear how people feel that this is a problem.

This now allows a -lot- of characters to do some ******** combos. As a ROB player, DSmash > DSmash > DSmash > FSmash for a KO is not hard at all with the windmill. IF it were a normal ceiling, it'd be fine, but the fact that it is usually set as two angle essentially trapping a person, I find it really messed up. It basically makes a pinball area where the other person's the pinball, you're 70 flippers, and the hole for the ball to fall out is about 2 CM on either side.

Second, FD has bad ledges. How are these worse?

I just find in general that a lot of characters tend to get stuck under them. The lip is really close to the ledge so characters like DK and Bowser can get stuck under it easy and other characters like Ness or Lucas will just bounce off of the lip and go straight down when on other stages that exact same angle/position will grab the ledge. It was somewhat like this in Melee, but it's even more so in Brawl.

The walls, again, have been my biggest concern because of these infinites. However, there is notice of the stage change, and it is temporary based on time. Shadow Moses is a concern because the walls are temporary based on damage, so a properly spaced infinite would go on forever (or long enough for our purposes). However, in Poke, the stage changes after some time. I'm not sure how long it takes between stage transformations, but I'd guess around a minute.

Smash DI makes most Jab "infinites" not infinites. The problem, though, is that the SDIing makes you go towards the person, pushing the person back, and then you SDI back to the wall to get out since their jabs won't reach anymore. However, on both the fire and earth transformations, there is a spot where it's literally impossible to move a person back far enough. (Top part of the tree and the little box-o-death on the earth stage.)

Lylat Cruise

Okay, I have some questions about this one:

-Is it impossible for some characters to recover from below the plane of the stage when it is fully tilted? If it is possible, but maybe a little harder, then I don't see a problem. Now, if it is possible but unreasonably difficult, then there is a problem.

The issue with the tilting is that while someone is recovering, it's not unlikely that the stage will tilt away making your recovery go to short or tilt towards making you land on the stage instead of grabbing the ledge.

-I really don't get how even platforms are a problem. You state that they are more like obstacles, but can you tell me how? Also, every stage favors some characters over others. Take Dreamland 64 in Melee. That's a stage that Peach and Jigglypuff would counterpick on space animals. Marth liked Yoshi's Story, and Falco FD. Those were all neutrals. I know this isn't Melee, but the same idea should apply. No stage is perfectly neutral. Maybe if you can better explain what you mean about the platforms being a problem.

I think he was talking about the fact that if someone short is fighting someone else, they can't reach the platform without jumping, but I don't really think this is an issue as that's true for all platforms.

About the background, I've never found it to be distracting. Even if it is, that's something which affects the player and not the character. Maybe this is something to be concerned about, but not in the neutral/ counterpick sense. If a player cannot focus during a match because of a game, then why should the player win in said game?

I know some of my friends with ADD/ADHD complain about the background, but I agree, it never really effects me. I personally think it could be a counterpick or a neutral, just the nature of the stage makes me lean more towards counterpick. Which happens to be why I wanted to let someone else try to go against it, so just answering the questions for you.

 

[FakeGeorge]

Ran Iji, thanks for the stuff. We had one person drop out of bringing things. Laser Tag opens at 11:00am, and it'd be awesome if you can get there for about then. I kinda want to have it set up as soon as possible so more people can have warm ups and stuff.

---
Regarding Lylat Cruise, I don't recall that the tilt is too sudden /fast. Plus, I'd think that it'd complete a tilt before it moves. Something similar could be said of the wind in Dreamland 64 in Melee. It can keep characters from moving forward just enough to prevent them from grabbing the ledge/ landing on the stage. I think it happened to people to rarely that it wasn't a big problem. How is this any different?

Also, it seems like the general consensus in the Stage forum is that Lylat is neutral, if that means anything to you.

I rather far from convinced that Lylat is counterpick.
---

Poke Stadium... I'm still not convinced that the ledges are that big of a deal. However, for the walls and windmill, thanks for the examples. I can't say I'll move it to a CP quite yet. I want to look and see if there's any thing else.

This is one that I am seriously considering moving, though.
---

Thanks for the input on the stages. I don't wanna go a grab a list from somewhere else for a few reasons. First off, who says anyone else knows what they're doing, especially with what's counterpick/banned? Secondly, a lot of tournaments seemed to just play it safe and take only the obvious ones, turning doubtful neutrals into CPs and doubtful CPs into bans.

 

[-Ran]

Well, I'll be coming from New Orleans with four other Smashers in my car. I'll try to get there earlier than 11am, I guess.

 

[TheDownSyndromeKid]

Regarding Lylat Cruise, I don't recall that the tilt is too sudden /fast. Plus, I'd think that it'd complete a tilt before it moves. Something similar could be said of the wind in Dreamland 64 in Melee. It can keep characters from moving forward just enough to prevent them from grabbing the ledge/ landing on the stage. I think it happened to people to rarely that it wasn't a big problem. How is this any different?

The difference is that you're wrong. The wind in dreamland 64 didn't affect people in the air ever at all whatsoever. Lylat cruise is a little ***** who just enjoys toying with my emotions, though.

Poke Stadium... I'm still not convinced that the ledges are that big of a deal. However, for the walls and windmill, thanks for the examples. I can't say I'll move it to a CP quite yet. I want to look and see if there's any thing else.

This is one that I am seriously considering moving, though.

I 2nd it moving it to either cp or banned, the windmill is the lamest thing I've seen in awhile, Sudai wasn't exagerrating *at all* about the pinball scenario.

 

[FakeGeorge]

Ran Iji, Laser Tag opens at 11am, so there isn't really a point to getting there much earlier than that, unless you're gonna play smash out of your car or something.

Well, even if Dreamland 64 didn't affect people in the air, I'm still not convinced about Lylat. Though I'm gonna go ahead and drop Poke to a counterpick.

 

[Sudai]

Thanks for PKMN Stadium 1 as a CP. As said before, I'm not fully convinced one way or the other on Lylat either, though it just feels more counter-picky to me. I'm fine with that one as a neutral. I'm actually trying to look for more neutrals in the CP section, so don't think I'm out to just get like...2 neutrals. : P

 

[TheDownSyndromeKid]

I would say Lylat is just fine as a neutral stage. Yes, the platform placement may favor some characters over others. But that's the case with every single stage, period.

Example:
Battlefield and FD don't favor Olimar or Ivysaur because their off edge recoveries are so gimpable, they would do better on stages like Eldin and Shadow Moses where they would never have to upB. This is why there's no *good* way to choose who to favor and who to not and then call it "neutral".

Anyone who johns over the background in Lylat is just that....johnning. If you can't focus on the fight, you aren't winning that fight anyways, stfu and gtfo. It should definitely be a neutral stage, even though it pisses me off.

 

[Sudai]

Bump because this is on Saturday and I want more people to come. >>;

 

[FakeGeorge]

Oh, I know you're not out to kill the neutral list. At first I thought about having Delfino as neutral, but there's enough movement that I feel like it's CP. It's great to have a huge CP list though.

 

[-Ran]

Bump for great justice.

 

[gnuf]

it would be nice if someone can carry the tv for me =]
is there going to be a person to carry the tv when we get there? lol. its a stupid huge tv.

 

[FakeGeorge]

There will be people there who can help carry the TV, yeah. I'm asking everyone who's bringing stuff to show up at 11:00 am, so there should be plenty of people who can help.

 

[-Ran]

Do you have power strips?

 

[FakeGeorge]

Yes, we should have several there already, and we may not need those at all. Still, if you have some just lying around (or extra controllers), then it wouldn't hurt to bring them.

Actually, if anyone can bring extra controllers (I don't really care what kind, except maybe no wavebirds), then I'd really appreciate it. FFA will need them.

 

[Sudai]

I have a bunch of controllers, I'll see if I can't sneak any out of my house.

 

[FakeGeorge]

Awesome. I didn't really think about it until recently, but casual players may not be so picky about using their own controllers. So, they're less likely to bring one, and we'll need 32 controllers for FFA, though we can probably get away with not using every setup.

 

[cloud520]

quick question, are the character choices blind picks or no?

 

[FakeGeorge]

Well, I don't think it'd be an issue in FFA, but sure, someone could call blind picks in FFA. For Singles, it's okay to call for a double-blind on the first game of a set. Then it's advanced slob picks.

Are you going to come to 3LT?

 

[Ever_Power]

I have never in all the tournaments ive gone too actully seen someone call a blind or double blind pick lol.

That's why I <3 my main, well balanced and it doesnt matter who you pick rofl.

 

[cloud520]

yes, i will be there, going with ran iji up there, name is garrett, im on the list, or i should be

 

[Sudai]

I have never in all the tournaments ive gone too actully seen someone call a blind or double blind pick lol.

That's why I <3 my main, well balanced and it doesnt matter who you pick rofl.

I remember Cyphus calling for a double blind against Taylor and Lee a few times. Aside from that, none at the LA tournies I've been going to. I'm planning tocall it against a few people at 3LT, but meh. I probably won't.

 

[FakeGeorge]

I've also seen Taylor and Lee call it on each other, and maybe Johnny on someone, but yeah, it doesn't happen often.

 

[cloud520]

ahh ok, i was just curious

 

[-Ran]

Bump for the greater good!

 

[FakeGeorge]

Not that long now. It looks like we've got things sorted out and it should run smoothly.

Remember to bring your own controllers and whatnot. Also, Laser Tag has concessions at reasonable prices, so don't bring your own food, please. If we buy food from them, then they don't charge us for the venue. It's that simple.