• Welcome to Smashboards, the world's largest Super Smash Brothers community! Over 250,000 Smash Bros. fans from around the world have come to discuss these great games in over 19 million posts!

    You are currently viewing our boards as a visitor. Click here to sign up right now and start on your path in the Smash community!

3.6beta Mewtwo changes

InfinityCollision

Smash Lord
Joined
Jul 9, 2014
Messages
1,245
Tilts
-Forward Tilt
--Tip BKB increased from 20 -> 40

Smashes
-Up Smash
--Pop up hitboxes adjusted to be slightly smaller.

Aerials
-Neutral Aerial
--All hitboxes now deal consistent damage. Damage alternates from 2 to 1 with every iteration, making total damage 20 -> 16.

-Forward Aerial
--Hitbox offset moved in closer to his body.

Specials
-Up Special (Teleport)
--Special Fall landing lag increased to 15 from 5.
--Fixed bug that allowed jump squat -> first frame DJ -> next frame Teleport -> Hover.
--Teleport no longer cancels into ending when aiming away from a wall you're touching, and can turn around properly if teleporting towards a wall you're already touching.
--Only grabs ledges while invisible if facing towards the ledge.

-Down Special (Disable)
--Hitbox size increased 2.5 -> 3.5.

Other
- Getup attack is now electric element and has spark GFX to better indicate the body hitboxes.
-Powershield size multiplier reduced from 0.9x to 0.75x
-Fixed bug that allowed Mewtwo to extend his Hover duration using Aerials
-Improved the graphics on Neutral Special, Up Smash, and various other moves.
-Shadow Ball sound effects improved.

Overall a mix of small to moderate buffs and nerfs... with the exception of the teleport changes.

DJC teleport removal was expected. What's more surprising is the landing lag change.

I'll cut to the chase: If you don't have your double jump, you will incur 15 frames of landing lag after a teleport. This includes autocanceled teleports.

This removes quite a few applications of TeleACs from our repertoire. Autocancels from the ledge are substantially laggier, opening up punish opportunities. Teleporting back to ground to extend a combo is much less viable. Obviously it's less viable for escaping traps as well.

Lots to think about here. Kind of glad I decided to hold off on making some threads to see what 3.6 might bring.

Hope you've been grinding your ledgedash!
 
Last edited:

DARKcpu0

Smash Apprentice
Joined
May 20, 2014
Messages
114
Telehovers from edge cancel are dead. We have to roll off the stage to hover now.
 
Last edited:

~Frozen~

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Jan 4, 2013
Messages
157
Location
NY
NNID
Frozen491
3DS FC
3909-8017-8600
It is not removed, only made smaller. Still a decent OoS option.
 

InfinityCollision

Smash Lord
Joined
Jul 9, 2014
Messages
1,245
DJC teleport aside, that's pretty much this update in a nutshell. Nothing completely removed, just reduced (or increased, for ftilt and Disable) in value.
 

DrinkingFood

Smash Hero
Joined
May 5, 2012
Messages
5,600
Location
Beaumont, TX
OMG no don't complain about hover extend. MewTwos don't know that the removal of this bug is a buff in disguise. It used to be that you couldn't end your hover during an aerial, like peach can for her float. Anytime you did a hover canceled aerial in 3.5 and earlier, instead of ending the hover ASAP then fast falling to the ground like peach can, you had to hover downward until you landed/the aerial ended, because aerials forced hover to last until the aerial ended. In 3.6, releasing the jump button during your aerial stops your hover, allowing you to fast fall into the cancel. This makes your hover cancel'd aerials muuuuch better. If you weren't using hover canceled aerials before, for shame. They were already amazing in 3.5. Now they are amazing-er.
 
Last edited:

InfinityCollision

Smash Lord
Joined
Jul 9, 2014
Messages
1,245
@ DrinkingFood DrinkingFood beat me to it. HC aerials are much more effective in 3.6. While inability to extend hovers is admittedly a nerf to our recovery, we can still boost DJ height with aerials, we still have Shadow Ball shenanigans, we still have a great (if slightly nerfed) upb, and we're still a floaty with good air speed. Our recovery is still very, very good.
 
Last edited:

Badge

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Jan 3, 2013
Messages
186
It used to be that you couldn't end your hover during an aerial, like peach can for her float. Anytime you did a hover canceled aerial in 3.5 and earlier, instead of ending the hover ASAP then fast falling to the ground like peach can, you had to hover downward until you landed/the aerial ended, because aerials forced hover to last until the aerial ended.
This is wrong. In 3.5 letting go of the jump button during hover already reduced the time until landing, as did fastfalling (i.e. a smash input downwards while falling and not in hover as opposed to just holding down). HC FAir even got worse due to the animation change and now lands a bit later.

Btw. I just found out: For hcs just above the ground, you can't ff within the first 4 frames after ideally letting go of jump due to still rising, which means manually inputting a fastfall then drastically reduces air time (by about 30%). And a perfect hc would also require a shorthop, which means yet another button press, but only shaves of like 1 frame of air time.
 

DrinkingFood

Smash Hero
Joined
May 5, 2012
Messages
5,600
Location
Beaumont, TX
The earliest I HCFair I could get in 3.5 (without shorthopping tho) landed frame 19, the earliest I could get in 3.6 landed frame 15 which cut short the hitbox after the first two active frames. I'm like 95% certain HCfairs are faster in 3.6. I still can't identify why this is, but I am confident you cannot fast fall after hovering an aerial, otherwise it would be possible to get the same speed HCfair in 3.5 as it is in 3.6. I assumed before this meant that hover was forced to continue through aerials, but this does not seem to be the case as you cannot hover upwards during an aerial if you release the jump button; but I do not seem to be able to fast fall in 3.5 during an aerial that was started during hover, even if I start the fair the same frame I end the hover (which gets you the quickest possible HC-able aerial) and spam fast fall every other frame until I hit the ground, I still could not get an HCFair to land sooner than frame 19.

Just checked his ECBs in both games during fair, in 3.6 the bottom of his ECB is slightly higher during the hitboxes and slightly lower afterwards when compared to 3.5. However in 3.6 he can land before the ECB even refreshes, meaning it is still attached to its lowest point, because of how early he can land. Why he can land this early I am not sure, I am pretty confident it is because he can actually FF immediately after a hover during an aerial in 3.6.

@Shadic @shanus @whoeverfixedmewtwo help us out here
 
Last edited:

Badge

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Jan 3, 2013
Messages
186
The earliest I HCFair I could get in 3.5 (without shorthopping tho) landed frame 19, the earliest I could get in 3.6 landed frame 15 which cut short the hitbox after the first two active frames. I'm like 95% certain HCfairs are faster in 3.6. I still can't identify why this is, but I am confident you cannot fast fall after hovering an aerial, otherwise it would be possible to get the same speed HCfair in 3.5 as it is in 3.6. I assumed before this meant that hover was forced to continue through aerials, but this does not seem to be the case as you cannot hover upwards during an aerial if you release the jump button; but I do not seem to be able to fast fall in 3.5 during an aerial that was started during hover, even if I start the fair the same frame I end the hover (which gets you the quickest possible HC-able aerial) and spam fast fall every other frame until I hit the ground, I still could not get an HCFair to land sooner than frame 19.
That's strange. I am definitly able to fastfall the HC FAir in 3.5, which also causes it to land frame 15 from a sh. But from further testing it seems like the ff has to be frame perfect on frame 13 or it doesn't come out, which is strange. If that is true, though, I'd agree that (low) hc were buffed in 3.6, because they're now consistently performable.
MewtwoHCFair35.gif
 

DrinkingFood

Smash Hero
Joined
May 5, 2012
Messages
5,600
Location
Beaumont, TX
Does that also require a SH, too? if so, that would be 3-4 frame perfect inputs for 3.5 HCfairs in 3.5 to work properly lol, since hovering immediately after the jump would require releasing the jump button (4 frames leniency) pressing it on the first frame airborne again (no leniency) releasing it after 2 frames (no leniency) inputting fair (2 frames leniency but it doesn't reach max distance without a 1 frame window) and FF on frame 13. Effectively impossible lol.

But I also don't see how your HCFairs didn't feel faster when you tried them. In 3.5 I reckon the best anyone was getting out of their HC Fairs was landing 19-20 frames, and only if they knew to practice releasing hover instantly rather than hovering down, otherwise they were probably losing quite a few more frames, but in 3.6 I feel I'm consistently landing in the 15-18 frame mark just depending on how well I input everything
 

Badge

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Jan 3, 2013
Messages
186
Does that also require a SH, too? if so, that would be 3-4 frame perfect inputs for 3.5 HCfairs in 3.5 to work properly lol, since hovering immediately after the jump would require releasing the jump button (4 frames leniency) pressing it on the first frame airborne again (no leniency) releasing it after 2 frames (no leniency) inputting fair (2 frames leniency but it doesn't reach max distance without a 1 frame window) and FF on frame 13. Effectively impossible lol.
You don't have to be frame perfect for the sh. You can either Tap jump->hold down&hold jump button (4 frame window for the jump input/6 frame window for pressing down) or retap the jump button during jumpsquat (4 frame window to release and repress). I can do both methods consistently. They are strainful, though.

But I also don't see how your HCFairs didn't feel faster when you tried them. In 3.5 I reckon the best anyone was getting out of their HC Fairs was landing 19-20 frames, and only if they knew to practice releasing hover instantly rather than hovering down, otherwise they were probably losing quite a few more frames, but in 3.6 I feel I'm consistently landing in the 15-18 frame mark just depending on how well I input everything
With a ff, hc FAirs feel a lot faster in 3.6 than they did in 3.5. Without though, and releasing and executing as soon as I manage, they feel about the same (which makes sense because they only are like 1-2 frames slower in 3.6.) If you delay the FAir by 2 frames after the hover, you automatically get a fastfall from the buffered Smash input. This never happened to me the few times I played 3.6, so maybe this is why you felt they were faster and I didn't.



On another note: The nerf to whooping to the ledge and removal of telehovering via platforms (without sliding off) make me sad. Especially so because like 3.5, 3.6 makes huge parts of the tech skill I practiced naught or even hindering (see hc FAirs not ffing when you do the FAir within 2 frames after the hover), albeit to a lesser extent. That and platform-telehovering was one of the most intriguing parts of M2 to me. (And whooping to the ledge in circles easily the most fun thing to do without opponent.) Meh, I don't like patch-time in PM. /rant
 

DrinkingFood

Smash Hero
Joined
May 5, 2012
Messages
5,600
Location
Beaumont, TX
@ Badge Badge in 3.6 I am able to do an immediate fair out of hover and then FF and cancel the fair after the second frame of the hitbox, why do you say you have to delay it when you can just do it ASAP and then FF?
Also by whooping to the ledge are you talking jump->teleporting from onstage to the ledge? I can still do that easily it doesn't seem nerfed at all
 

Badge

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Jan 3, 2013
Messages
186
@ Badge Badge in 3.6 I am able to do an immediate fair out of hover and then FF and cancel the fair after the second frame of the hitbox, why do you say you have to delay it when you can just do it ASAP and then FF?
I couldn't get that to work. If I wanted to get a fastfall out of fh->immediate float->FAir->immediately hold down again, I had to delay the FAir by 2 frames. (probably different for sh, but I'm usually not shorthopping in practice, so I didn't test that). I can retest later, when I'm home again. If you automatically ff from a sh, but not a fh, that would also explain why sh acs felt so fast to me in 3.6.
Also by whooping to the ledge are you talking jump->teleporting from onstage to the ledge? I can still do that easily it doesn't seem nerfed at all
Yes, more precisely I'm referring to this:
--Only grabs ledges while invisible if facing towards the ledge.
Teleporting to the ledge still works from most positions for me, but I couldn't get it to work from just besides the ledge with a minimal hop even in debug mode. I'm not sure about the exact mechanics. I guess either M2 turns around at some point during the tp (if holding towards the stage), but not soon enough to grab the ledge if you are right next to it, or you only grab it if you teleport in such a way that you reappear next to the ledge.

Edit: Retested instant ff after ac FAir, still the same result: Couldn't auto-buffer it unless the FAir was delayed by 2+ frames, even after a sh. Also did some more testing for teleports to the ledge and only those worked, which reappeared before grabbing the ledge. Unfortunately that also means 1 frame of vulnerability (i.e. a hitbox on the ledge prevents teleports to there from the stage). In most circumstances it should be possible to either use a vulnerable teleport or wait above the ledge, but a few edgeguard setups won't work anymore.
 
Last edited:

InfinityCollision

Smash Lord
Joined
Jul 9, 2014
Messages
1,245
Simultaneously inputting the fair and releasing the hover during the first frame of hover, then fastfalling several frames later (~3 frame window iirc) will get the results DrinkingFood described above. If you're late on the hover release then you'll land a few frames after the hitboxes terminate.

The onstage ledgesnap nerf is not worth complaining about at all. You can still do it from further back, you can still wavedash/moonwalk/crouch drop/whatever, and if you're close enough that the onstage ledgesnap doesn't work and facing away from it then you can just jump out over the ledge and teleport straight down for a fully invincible ledgesnap.
 
Last edited:

Badge

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Jan 3, 2013
Messages
186
Simultaneously inputting the fair and releasing the hover during the first frame of hover, then fastfalling several frames later (~3 frame window iirc) will get the results DrinkingFood described above. If you're late on the hover release then you'll land a few frames after the hitboxes terminate.
That I know. But if it doesn't work without delaying the fastfall you have to manually input down instead of just abusing C-Stick mechanics + smash input buffering.

The onstage ledgesnap nerf is not worth complaining about at all. You can still do it from further back, you can still wavedash/moonwalk/crouch drop/whatever, and if you're close enough that the onstage ledgesnap doesn't work and facing away from it then you can just jump out over the ledge and teleport straight down for a fully invincible ledgesnap.
All of these methods are either much slower or get hit by hitboxes at the ledge. Anyway, the nerf is small, but the detriment to my enjoyment of the game ist much greater.
I can't hop forward from the ledge and teleport back to it anymore, which as a mindgame was very fun. I can't ledgestall in circle motions anymore, which was my favorite tech-routine/pseudo-taunt. I have to unlearn my most common method for getting to the ledge, which is also the one I instinctly use if I want to get there and now suicide. On the other hand I don't see the reason why it would be removed, especially because it's just a minor thing for game balance and nobody I played with ever complained about it. It just feels like a change solely there to annoy me in particular without much affecting anybody else. (Of course this assessment is wrong, but that doesn't change the notion.)
Meh, I didn't intend to make a huge ruckus out of this. I just don't agree with the design decisions of the PMDT concerning this, platform telehovers, perfect PKFs or MK's DC drift. Such things are what makes the game interesting to me.
 

InfinityCollision

Smash Lord
Joined
Jul 9, 2014
Messages
1,245
All of these methods are either much slower or get hit by hitboxes at the ledge.
That's actually kind of the point, at least from where I stand. 3.5 onstage ledgesnaps were fully invincible, which is pretty crazy when you think about it. With the change in 3.6, they have one frame of vulnerability as you turn around. These alternatives also carry some unstated benefits, such as the ability to hover off the ledge. Now the only way to get a fully invincible ledgesnap is to teleport to ledge while facing it or employ one of Mewtwo's ledgestalls.

I can't hop forward from the ledge and teleport back to it anymore, which as a mindgame was very fun.
Fun, but impractical. A modified version of this still exists that is pseudo-safe.

I have to unlearn my most common method for getting to the ledge
No, you have to be more precise with it. It still works, just not when you're standing right at the ledge.

Paging @ ~Frozen~ ~Frozen~ to fact check me on this (if possible obv), but I wouldn't be surprised if all the various 3.6 telehover techs were removed via a single change. Either way, not surprised they're gone. You could airdodge out of any of them, something that normal teleport use doesn't allow, and you could effectively avoid landing altogether in some instances via the "landing" and edge cancel variants of the tech while still refreshing your DJ and having access to telehover.

DC Drift removal was pretty much a given from day one. Perfect PKF wasn't intentionally removed from what I recall - it disappeared due to changes in landing detection in 3.5. The proper timing for it simply no longer exists.
 
Last edited:

~Frozen~

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Jan 4, 2013
Messages
157
Location
NY
NNID
Frozen491
3DS FC
3909-8017-8600
Correct, it was a single change. If I remember correctly, "Landing" during Teleport Start/Travel in 3.5 would reset variables, allowing you to Hover/Airdodge/Refresh your DJ.
 

Badge

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Jan 3, 2013
Messages
186
@ InfinityCollision InfinityCollision This is going in a direction I didn't intend, so more detailed responses collapsed. Essentially, I can understand why the PMDT made the changes, but I disagree with the underlying philosophy.
That's actually kind of the point, at least from where I stand. 3.5 onstage ledgesnaps were fully invincible, which is pretty crazy when you think about it. With the change in 3.6, they have one frame of vulnerability as you turn around. These alternatives also carry some unstated benefits, such as the ability to hover off the ledge. Now the only way to get a fully invincible ledgesnap is to teleport to ledge while facing it or employ one of Mewtwo's ledgestalls.
I don't see how being able to get from the stage to the ledge fully invincibly is anything but a small character specific strength or needs to be removed. Almost every method of getting to the ledge has some advantage over teleporting in from the stage that makes it more desirable in at least niche situations, so I don't think that this particular option somehow overcentralized the edgeguard game of M2 around it or overshadowed other options. Jumping straight up for waiting makes the teleport back faster while giving lots of time to wait; jumping away from the ledge for the stall covers other options than waiting on the stage; simple stalling keeps you at the ledge with intangibility; moonwalks can be a bait etc.
The telehovers were you slide off the ledge weren't affected by the patch. And they are also performed from totally different positions then the instant port we're talking about, so I don't see why you mentioned them. The 1 frame of vincibility is a nerf I won't ever bat an eye over. I did mention it, but not because I found it unfair. If teleports to the ledge simply were always vulnerable for 1 frame, I wouldn't complain about that.

Fun, but impractical. A modified version of this still exists that is pseudo-safe.
What alternate version are you talking about? If I'm indeed missing something, I'd be interested in that.
Not relevant to my position, but, while the mindgame wasn't worth the effort in itself, it was practical. You were fully invincible during the process (it's just a variation of the usual stall procedure) and it made the trigger of you moving forward from the ledge unreliable for the opponent.
For the record, with hopping I wanted to imply ledgehopping in contrast to ledgejumping.

No, you have to be more precise with it. It still works, just not when you're standing right at the ledge.
The method I'm talking about involves me standing next to the ledge. I didn't try all angles in debug mode, but enough to be sure that relearning it would take a significant amount of time. Whenever I'm standing next to the ledge and want to grab it, I try to tp to it, which doesn't work anymore and at the very least puts me in a bad position.
Being more precise implies that you want to do the same thing but have less room for error. I can't do the same thing, because what was once ideal is now impossible. I'm not arguing for tps to the ledge to be easier. I'm just upset that after practicing the most efficients methods for getting to the ledge for many hours until I automatically performed them, many of those methods now just lead to a suicide. Actively throwing wrenches into the path of your players doesn't make them likelier to keep playing.

What makes me want to talk about this, though, is how this kind of thing happened to lots of characters in both 3.5 and 3.6. I disagree with a significant part of the changes even to characters I only ever play against and always for similar underlying reasons. The game is just getting more boring and/or Melee with every change (and both of those developments I hate).

Either way, not surprised they're gone. You could airdodge out of any of them, something that normal teleport use doesn't allow, and you could effectively avoid landing altogether in some instances via the "landing" and edge cancel variants of the tech while still refreshing your DJ and having access to telehover.
So why were they removed? I don't believe telehovering was broken in the sense that it decreased or dominated interactions with your opponent. You had to be higher than a platform and would always end up lower than it and on the other side if you weren't above it. While the exact path could be varied, the number of effectively different options was very limited from a position to telehover. Enough so that the opponent could cover a significant chunk of them to be net positive for him and another chunk to be more or less neutral. Add to that the time it takes to get into position, I'm pretty sure the mechanic promoted interaction instead of stifling it.
Besides that, the movement offered by telehovers was fun - lots of it in fact. I also never heard complains about it, although I'll admit that I wasn't pushing the technique. If something is fun for the user and not unfun for the opponent, there's no reason to remove it.
Concerning the DJC-Telehover: I'd just have kept it in, too; especially so if that is the only way to keep platform telehovers. I'd even have thought about giving grounded teleports the ability to be hovered out of. I wasn't playing M2 during 3.0, though, so I don't remember unrestricted telehovers and the latter - being 6 frames faster than DJC telehover - might have been the close to that.

You also still refresh your DJ and get your airdodge from porting over platforms in case there was confusion over this.

DC Drift removal was pretty much a given from day one.
It was, but I also hated the idea of it being removed since that day. I don't play MK, so I'm not actively effected, but I would probably have looked into learning the tech if it being removed wouldn't have been clear. Same for DJC Telehover.
On one hand, I think DJ Drift should have been left in the game. It clearly wasn't broken if just due to the time execution takes. It offers a slew of options and makes players think about how it can be used (which for me is one of the most exiting parts of Smash/any game). Also, if somebody manages to apply it effectively, that would create a lot of hype. Of course it was a bug, but so was SWDing and that was actively put back into the game, although it is very similar. There's a lot more that could be said here, but I'd probably wander off even more from the topic at hand to game design theory and write a whole essay.
On the other hand, if every unintended tech gets taken out of the game metagame development is halted. Nobody tries to abuse everything in the game, because the fear of it being taken out is too great. I know I'm not really interested in pushing the metagame if as soon as my actions bear fruit the result are nerfs specifically to the techniques or strategies I pioneered.

Perfect PKF wasn't intentionally removed from what I recall - it disappeared due to changes in landing detection in 3.5. The proper timing for it simply no longer exists.
It was intentionally nerfed in 3.5 and then fully removed in 3.6; both times labelled as "bug fixes". In 3.5 the timing also changed to be the much easier and only different from a perfect, but short PKF by 1 frame. The change impacted me negatively as I was actively using perfect PKFs in 3.0, but it was for the better. The removal of it is what I'm disagreeing with, why was just discussed on the Lucas boards.
 

WildestSpade1

Smash Cadet
Joined
Jan 12, 2014
Messages
36
I am also a bit disheartened at some of the 3.6 beta bug fixes, as I feel that, as stated above, many of these “bugs” are interesting, fun, and exciting aspects of the game. Many of these alleged bugs I classified as “technical abilities,” which I consider to be the intricate mechanics of a character that allow for unconventional actions. While debugging is a critical component of each release, technical abilities are healthy and encouraged under Project M’s objective of “A fast-paced game, with flowing, natural movement, where the player has a great degree of control over their character due to the technical skill that they’ve achieved.” So how do we differentiate the two?

Teleport’s tendency to cancel when touching a wall was certainly a “bug” simply due to its undesirable impacts on gameplay. A source of frustration in 3.5, this issue was entirely unavoidable and never beneficial. Even opponents sympathized when a match finished in this manner. Clearly, this quirk was an unintentional bug whose removal leaves PM a better game.

In contrast, Mewtwo’s hover after a frame perfect double jump aligns with the requirements for a technical skill. A consequence of the game’s engine, this nuance allowed a player’s skill to overcome a limitation by regaining hover and airdodge upon exiting a grounded teleport. In parallel, Yoshi and Peach’s double jumps allow for instant landings known as the DJL technique. This allows the characters to perform downsmashes and other moves out of shield restricted from other characters. We embrace these options as tech skill due to the precision they require to perform regardless of their undoubtedly unintentional origins. Similarly, Samus’s super wave dash, as amazing as it is, is in fact, a glitch. Through both fan service and adherence to the design goals, PM chose to not only preserve, but even slightly relax the timing on SWD when Samus entered Project M a year and half ago. So why are certain exploits treated as bugs when others are encouraged to propagate? Melee’s status as a beautiful accident has been recounted innumerous times; the intended party game from more than a decade ago nurtured the incredible gameplay we enjoy to this day. But why are new quirks and mechanics met with animosity while tenured ones are cherished? Above all, Smash and specifically Project M surpasses other games due to the subtleties and interactions that provide an endless source of discovery and entertainment. At the forefront of these details are each character’s technical attributes, which instill depth and enable mastery of the character.

Therefore, I consider a technical ability to be any action that requires a precise input to expand on a character’s options. The line between a bug and technical ability is thin, distinguished primarily by connotation. That is, a technical ability serves to create options while bugs introduce undesirable problems. In accordance, I view the frame perfect double jump to teleport hover to be a source of technical ability rather than a bug because it opens situational options for the character, demonstrates a player’s finesse, and the specific circumstances required restrain it from dominating other characters’ options. What designates the consistent mechanic of refreshing of teleport upon landing as incorrect, regardless of the entailed effects? In contrast the teleport cancel, which embodies the undesirable, unavoidable, and unintentional aspects of a bug, the technical ability of DJC teleport hover (along with other mechanics) is exciting, deliberate in execution, and consequential to the game's underlying mechanics. I fear one of the interesting nuances intrinsic to Smash may have been prematurely removed.
 

DrinkingFood

Smash Hero
Joined
May 5, 2012
Messages
5,600
Location
Beaumont, TX
I am also a bit disheartened at some of the 3.6 beta bug fixes, as I feel that, as stated above, many of these “bugs” are interesting, fun, and exciting aspects of the game. Many of these alleged bugs I classified as “technical abilities,” which I consider to be the intricate mechanics of a character that allow for unconventional actions. While debugging is a critical component of each release, technical abilities are healthy and encouraged under Project M’s objective of “A fast-paced game, with flowing, natural movement, where the player has a great degree of control over their character due to the technical skill that they’ve achieved.” So how do we differentiate the two?

Teleport’s tendency to cancel when touching a wall was certainly a “bug” simply due to its undesirable impacts on gameplay. A source of frustration in 3.5, this issue was entirely unavoidable and never beneficial. Even opponents sympathized when a match finished in this manner. Clearly, this quirk was an unintentional bug whose removal leaves PM a better game.

In contrast, Mewtwo’s hover after a frame perfect double jump aligns with the requirements for a technical skill. A consequence of the game’s engine, this nuance allowed a player’s skill to overcome a limitation by regaining hover and airdodge upon exiting a grounded teleport. In parallel, Yoshi and Peach’s double jumps allow for instant landings known as the DJL technique. This allows the characters to perform downsmashes and other moves out of shield restricted from other characters. We embrace these options as tech skill due to the precision they require to perform regardless of their undoubtedly unintentional origins. Similarly, Samus’s super wave dash, as amazing as it is, is in fact, a glitch. Through both fan service and adherence to the design goals, PM chose to not only preserve, but even slightly relax the timing on SWD when Samus entered Project M a year and half ago. So why are certain exploits treated as bugs when others are encouraged to propagate? Melee’s status as a beautiful accident has been recounted innumerous times; the intended party game from more than a decade ago nurtured the incredible gameplay we enjoy to this day. But why are new quirks and mechanics met with animosity while tenured ones are cherished? Above all, Smash and specifically Project M surpasses other games due to the subtleties and interactions that provide an endless source of discovery and entertainment. At the forefront of these details are each character’s technical attributes, which instill depth and enable mastery of the character.

Therefore, I consider a technical ability to be any action that requires a precise input to expand on a character’s options. The line between a bug and technical ability is thin, distinguished primarily by connotation. That is, a technical ability serves to create options while bugs introduce undesirable problems. In accordance, I view the frame perfect double jump to teleport hover to be a source of technical ability rather than a bug because it opens situational options for the character, demonstrates a player’s finesse, and the specific circumstances required restrain it from dominating other characters’ options. What designates the consistent mechanic of refreshing of teleport upon landing as incorrect, regardless of the entailed effects? In contrast the teleport cancel, which embodies the undesirable, unavoidable, and unintentional aspects of a bug, the technical ability of DJC teleport hover (along with other mechanics) is exciting, deliberate in execution, and consequential to the game's underlying mechanics. I fear one of the interesting nuances intrinsic to Smash may have been prematurely removed.
tl;dr bug that does things I don't like? that's ****ing stupid they should have removed it the whole time omg
bug that does things I do like? why'd they remove it that's ****ing stupid they should cater to the whims of the players of a single character rather than good game design and the potential impacts on the gameplay and general balance
 

WildestSpade1

Smash Cadet
Joined
Jan 12, 2014
Messages
36
tl;dr bug that does things I don't like? that's ****ing stupid they should have removed it the whole time omg
bug that does things I do like? why'd they remove it that's ****ing stupid they should cater to the whims of the players of a single character rather than good game design and the potential impacts on the gameplay and general balance
Of course the above is my opinion, that's obvious. But rather than complaining, whining, etc, I put effort into explaining how and why I feel certain mechanics shouldn't be removed, while some should. And while I focused on Mewtwo, I have the same stance for other characters' removed mechanics. He's my main, and this is the Mewtwo forum. If you disagree, what if you provided a counter argument instead of attempting to diminish mine?

If your argument is, "These mechanics were removed for general balance," I'd like to point out that (from Tier List Speculation), "The PMDT very rarely takes issue with characters who are simply 'good,' rather, characters that have attributes that go against our design philosophies and goals." If you read through my previous post, I support that the DJC teleport hover is in line with PM's design goals in parallel to the other mechanics I discussed.
 

DrinkingFood

Smash Hero
Joined
May 5, 2012
Messages
5,600
Location
Beaumont, TX
You can ask just about any PMDT member if it's okay to have something stupid broken but stupid hard and they will tell you no, it's not okay. There's a reason Lucario's stuff was all slowed down, and why Fox's multi shines are CCable now. That line in their goals refers more to the amount of freedom given to the player rather than the amount if difficulty required for said freedom. Dumb **** that threatens reasonable design or game balance threatens that regardless of how hard it is; the team has always had to account for players pushing the limits on their characters, as such try design for top level play, where technical difficulty isn't really a hurdle anymore because it's assumed that top players master their characters technical aspects.
 

WildestSpade1

Smash Cadet
Joined
Jan 12, 2014
Messages
36
I disagree that teleport hovers are “stupid broken.” To perform a DJC teleport hover, you must be on the ground level of the stage (not platform). This is a huge restriction, as the teleport now has a minimum angle and therefore a minimum reappearance height. This minimum height is just barely lower than the platforms on Yoshi’s Story. As a result, the only characters tall enough to get hit by a minimum angle teleport hover nair are Bowser, Gannon, and possibly DDD. Every character can safely crouch below the minimum angle. Further, the specific location that you must be in upon reappearance make the move far less safe. The frame data is as follows:

[1-5] jump squat [6] dj [7-13] tp startup [14-23] tp travel [24-27] tp cooldown [28] hover startup [29-32] nair startup [33] first frame active.

If your character has an option that hits Mewtwo at the minimum height in under 33 – 7 – your reaction time frames, it is punishable on reaction to the tp startup. For example, Bowser’s up tilt will intercept Mewtwo on frame 8. Given that Human Benchmark places the median reaction time at 256 milliseconds, or 15.36 frames, intercepting is entirely possible. (http://www.humanbenchmark.com/tests/reactiontime/statistics). Also note that these statistics where collected with a web tool that accounts for monitor lag likely greater than a CRT.

Similarly, DDD’s uptilt will intercept on frame 7, and Ganon can uair on frame 11 (js included).

In general, the predictability of the reappearance gives teleport hover situational use as a platform chase or risky edgeguard rather than an “unfair” approach. And while I would gladly accept its removal if it did become problematic to balance, it seems to me the mechanic was never given a chance.
 

blu2grut

Smash Cadet
Joined
Aug 5, 2013
Messages
46
Here are some things to consider.....
Double jump>teleport still allows airdodge. Teleporting edge cancel on platforms also still allows airdodge and returns your second jump. You can run off ledge and horizontal teleport and still get a good autocancel. You can still autocancel but they are much harder now. You can still telehover if you teleport from the air to the ground and land just BARELY above the ground (its not very fast either).

I am really glad the way overpowering hover extend was removed.

I'm sad that autocancels are mostly dead. The amount of fun I have dropped dramatically.
That being said Mewtwo is still a good character and I'll continue to play him.
 
Last edited:

Trollinguy

Smash Cadet
Joined
Jun 30, 2015
Messages
37
Location
Ohio
M2 isnt the only character to have a teleport nerf. Zelda can no longer "telesnipe" the ledge without more precision and 1 frame of vulnerability. Many zeldas are committing suicide daily, all having to relearn the tech. While it is annoying, i think pm will be a better game in the end thats less gimmicky if you cant snipe the ledge through a characters up b that hits (like marths). The 1 frame makes you have to commit sooner so that you dont get hit while sniping.

Edit: also your hover and teleport are very very polarizing in some match ups, so i can see why they got hit with the nerf bat even though they were fun.
 
Last edited:

DrinkingFood

Smash Hero
Joined
May 5, 2012
Messages
5,600
Location
Beaumont, TX
If your character has an option that hits Mewtwo at the minimum height in under 33 – 7 – your reaction time frames, it is punishable on reaction to the tp startup. For example, Bowser’s up tilt will intercept Mewtwo on frame 8. Given that Human Benchmark places the median reaction time at 256 milliseconds, or 15.36 frames, intercepting is entirely possible. (http://www.humanbenchmark.com/tests/reactiontime/statistics). Also note that these statistics where collected with a web tool that accounts for monitor lag likely greater than a CRT.
http://shoryuken.com/2015/05/21/hum...hting-games-or-why-blocking-isnt-always-easy/
Human benchmark only tests for twitch reaction time, not decision-based reaction time. Twitch reaction time applies any time you wait for a single stimulus and respond with a singular action. This never applies in fighting games. Decision based reaction time is literally any time you have more than one option or have to choose between doing one thing and doing another. Try the Milia blocker (it's in the article I just linked) and screen shot it for me if you can average under 24 frames lmao. Additionally you make the assumption the MewTwo teleport should always end in a convienent location for some character's uptilt to hit without requiring extra positioning.
 
Last edited:

Garr

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Dec 6, 2014
Messages
100
Location
Savannah, GA
Every balance change Mewtwo had forced me to sharpen up fundamentals, and this is no exception. Like, I can't see the logic of being able to "edge cancel" a teleport and end up below the platform with your hover. And omg, that Dair hover extend. I'm getting SO tired of people asking for the jank back. This is an opportunity to peel off some of that fraudulence, but all you want is lagless autocancels at any possible moment, because GOD FORBID YOU SHOULD LEARN HOW TO RECOVER.

I used to be mad at the Fair nerf, but I re-learned the spacing and I can still do everything I did in 3.5 (especially juggling :p). Now, I would like for the PMDT to address that bug where Mewtwo's Uair gets randomly canceled when jumping through platforms.
 

InfinityCollision

Smash Lord
Joined
Jul 9, 2014
Messages
1,245
It's not really a bug, the bottom of his ECB just drops sharply on frame 7 due to the animation spinning him around.

Unlisted changes I don't think have been mentioned: the reappearance graphic that was added on frames 16-17 of teleport in 3.5 was removed for 3.6. There are no visual indicators between his disappearance on frame 8 and his reappearance on frame 18, same as it was in 3.0. Certain hitboxes also had their size/placement altered slightly.
 
Last edited:

Garr

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Dec 6, 2014
Messages
100
Location
Savannah, GA
Still, it sucks having your string disrupted by an unintentional land cancel. The same thing happens to DDD with his Fair and a friend who mains him knows the struggle.
 
Last edited:

InfinityCollision

Smash Lord
Joined
Jul 9, 2014
Messages
1,245
New changes as of the official 3.6 release:

-Backwards roll now actionable one frame sooner
-"Forward Air improved aesthetically."
-Armored alts given neato new visor effects when his eyes glow (unlisted)

tl;dr massive buffs, character is OP, PMDT has lost their minds
 
Last edited:

Garr

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Dec 6, 2014
Messages
100
Location
Savannah, GA
What exactly is the aesthetic change? I'm assuming it's the Fair's shadow trail being more horizontal, but my memory of it's not very clear.
 
Top Bottom