3.6 ZSS Discussion

[Shokio]

I don't agree that Usmash is useless at all.
It's a really usefull combo tool against fastfallers (Zss main trouble) and its a niche option for tech chase in plataforms against other chars. It is a disjointed hitbox so it wins almost against anything coming from above, plus it lasts long so it the timing isn't that hard, and the cooldown isn't as horrible as Fsmash so it isn't that risky.
Just predict that fox or falco coming with a Dar/Bair and land the first Usmash in low percentage and they will suffer, you can follow up even if they DI away cause you can run and Usmash and in PM is even easier.

"Let's make Up-Smash an incredibly [almost] useless move!"

"But the move was always mediocre anyway so meh."

The "almost" is exactly what you described, it's effectiveness vs. spacies. But a move having reserved effectiveness for 3-4 characters pretty much puts it in the realm of mediocre/almost useless. Yeah, it's pretty good for covering platforms techs in-general, but the problem with that is that with any other fall speed class, you're gonna Up-Smash them and that's it. You don't typically get combo's off of that move unless it's Fox, Falco, Wolf, or Falcon. In most cases, it's better to just Uair them once their on a platform, or use the back side of Nair, cause those will not only punish their positional disadvantage, but will also allow for follow-ups as opposed to UpSmash which you just hit people with and that's it. Hell, even Waveland --> DSmash is better option, if you're a reasonably quick player.

Up-Smash is probably the easiest, low-risk, and quickest response to a platform tech chase, that's for sure, but it's also extremely unrewarding. I mean, damage is damage, yeah, and I use Up-Smash for that scenario all the time, but it's only out of pure laziness, not because I think it's the most optimal move. Players should be looking to maximize their punish game and gameplay, and using Up-Smash is definitely not maximizing anything.

EDIT: And btw, there's nothing wrong with low-risk, low-reward moves, that's a perfectly balanced and applicable thing. What I'm saying is, is that there are other options that are just as low-risk (possibly lower?) that ZSS has that are applicable in the same situation, that give higher rewards. This numbs Up-Smashes usefulness.

 

[ted dorosheff]

I don't agree that Usmash is useless at all.
It's a really usefull combo tool against fastfallers (Zss main trouble) and its a niche option for tech chase in plataforms against other chars. It is a disjointed hitbox so it wins almost against anything coming from above, plus it lasts long so it the timing isn't that hard, and the cooldown isn't as horrible as Fsmash so it isn't that risky.
Just predict that fox or falco coming with a Dar/Bair and land the first Usmash in low percentage and they will suffer, you can follow up even if they DI away cause you can run and Usmash and in PM is even easier.

Finally someone less hateful about Usmash. Its not a bad move at all. Its not a kill move, or really even a move that hurts a lot. It works well to re-initiate a combo string that got interrupted.

 

[InfinityCollision]

The problems with usmash are pretty simple.

1) It's fairly easy to SDI out of, even with perfect positioning. One SDI pulse away is more than sufficient if positioned a little to the side, otherwise SDIing a couple of hits up and away is usually good enough to get even a fastfaller out.
2) 75 degree angle on the final hitbox isn't conducive to followups off good DI given the frame data (~20 frames advantage at 0, ~40 at 100) and knockback involved. I'm not trying to suggest she needs Zelda-style usmash->usmash combos, but given the commitment involved, modest damage, and lack of kill power it should set up vertical combos or at least a potential juggle.

And not to beat a dead horse, but I every time I test the new upb it just looks worse and worse. DI away beats it clean, but it's not even necessary sometimes - I already mentioned the move not working near 0, but sometimes it won't work at higher percents either if you space the launching hitbox too well.

 

[LoneSalBug]

I've never tried ZSS before this patch and I have to say I love this character. With her mobility she's so much fun to play, everything flows naturally with her. The only thing I don't like is the 2 hit forward air. Overall though really well designed character and PM's future is bright if they can get every character to her level.

Having said that, can anyone help me figure out how you're supposed to use her upB and her sideB? From the limited time I've had with her I haven't been able to find much use for those two moves (aside from recovery obviously). Side B is too slow and I don't understand what upB is supposed to be.

Also Upsmash is meh. As Shokio said, it's easy damage when someone is above you on a platform or something, but that's about it. I can sometimes get one aerial after it depending on their DI + percent, but nothing too special.

 

[InfinityCollision]

Upb is secretly kind of a keystone in her kit. Do stuff->pop them up->bring them down with upb->tech chase->repeat until you can set up into an edgeguard (divekick/more upb) or kill (fsmash/fair/bair). You can still kind of do things with it if they DI out since she's fast and they're in the air, but ideally you want that final hit.

Side-b's utility is more limited due to the massive startup time. Still good, but more situational.

late edit: To expand on this a bit more, upb isn't the only move that fills that sort of "reset button" niche within her kit, but it's a good one. If you explore her combo game while looking for ways to lead into and follow up on these resets, it'll open up her punish game a bit.

And while I'm thinking about this stuff, learn to love the fair. It's useful in more ways than you may yet realize, even if it's not always consistent at the more straightforward stuff.

**** I don't even play this character now, why am I explaining all of this?

 

[Roche_CL]

SideB is a great tool to counter approaches, you can jump backwards and sideB, and start a combo off of that, has a decent hitbox and now it doesn't clank :D, although the startup animation is slow, once its out it doesn't lag that much so its not so terrible on wiff (unlike Fsmash) and its a disjointed hitbox.
Approaching with sideB is more risky but can be a good tool against heavy dashdancing opponents, I would not recommend it unless he abuses dashdance making it predictable.

Also I sometimes use it to continue combos but that is kinda situational.

 

[Lust for Glory]

How do you guys use crawl, if at all?

I like using it to "avoid" Falcos and Foxes that laser too high and slowly approach under them. I also like to use to potentialy fake out the opponent into thinking I'll just dtilt, then act accordingly.

 

[Shokio]

I rarely use it outside of ducking under spacie lasers, but every now and then I'll actually use it for micro-spacing (stolen from JFalls)

 

[ted dorosheff]

I've never tried ZSS before this patch and I have to say I love this character. With her mobility she's so much fun to play, everything flows naturally with her. The only thing I don't like is the 2 hit forward air. Overall though really well designed character and PM's future is bright if they can get every character to her level.

Having said that, can anyone help me figure out how you're supposed to use her upB and her sideB? From the limited time I've had with her I haven't been able to find much use for those two moves (aside from recovery obviously). Side B is too slow and I don't understand what upB is supposed to be.

Also Upsmash is meh. As Shokio said, it's easy damage when someone is above you on a platform or something, but that's about it. I can sometimes get one aerial after it depending on their DI + percent, but nothing too special.

What InfinityCollision said, learn to love the fair. Ive started incorporating shffl'd fairs into my approach, along with shffl'd nairs and uairs. Try working on getting fast and repeated shffl'd fair's, then try getting them down without advancing forward, then doing it backwards. Its just some good fast hitboxes that you can throw out that will certainly knock an opponent offstage.

 

[Daftatt]

U-throw to Down-B divekick for guaranteed kills on spacies post 100% is already a thing right?

 

[Foo]

U-throw to Down-B divekick for guaranteed kills on spacies post 100% is already a thing right?

I'm ALMOST positive that doesn't work.

 

[Daftatt]

I'm ALMOST positive that doesn't work.

lab it up son, come back and thank me when you're done, and maybe with some more exact numbers.

cause it's definitely a thing

 

[Legit]

U-throw to Down-B divekick for guaranteed kills on spacies post 100% is already a thing right?

Definitely not a thing.

 

[Daftatt]

Definitely not a thing.

so I guess I did discover it, neat

@ Foo you didn't think I wouldn't already have proof before I posted here did you? lol

btw 110% isn't necessarily the earliest this works it's just the percent I picked to lab out, you could probably get it to work earlier, but in general grab fox at 100 and pummel him a few times, then U-throw to Divekick as you whisper my name

U-throw hitbox out frame 5

3 frames hitlag

opponent released frame 10

actionable 30 frames after throw input

@Shadic i told you ZSS is the hard spacie counter

 

[ted dorosheff]

so I guess I did discover it, neat

@ Foo you didn't think I wouldn't already have proof before I posted here did you? lol

btw 110% isn't necessarily the earliest this works it's just the percent I picked to lab out, you could probably get it to work earlier, but in general grab fox at 100 and pummel him a few times, then U-throw to Divekick as you whisper my name

U-throw hitbox out frame 5

3 frames hitlag

opponent released frame 10

actionable 30 frames after throw input

@Shadic i told you ZSS is the hard spacie counter

This is very cool, props to you. however, i realllyy wouldnt say that ZSS is the hard counter to spacies.

 

[Foo]

so I guess I did discover it, neat

@ Foo you didn't think I wouldn't already have proof before I posted here did you? lol

btw 110% isn't necessarily the earliest this works it's just the percent I picked to lab out, you could probably get it to work earlier, but in general grab fox at 100 and pummel him a few times, then U-throw to Divekick as you whisper my name

U-throw hitbox out frame 5

3 frames hitlag

opponent released frame 10

actionable 30 frames after throw input

@Shadic i told you ZSS is the hard spacie counter

Still pretty skeptical. On DI away, you can see he gets out of hitstun one frame before being hit and it appears like your inputs in the video are frame perfect. DI away is the correct DI, so that's the only one that matters as any DI but away is easy bair. This makes me think this would be incredibly difficult to actually use and it might not work at all past the % you showed. I'd lab it myself, but I don't have a setup Not saying it doesn't work, just saying I'd need to see more proof to be convinced.

Kinda pointless anyway though since I already know that second only fair DOES work on DI away at those %s and is pretty easy to hit.

 

[Shokio]

The comment about ZSS being a hard counter to spacies was a joke, right xD?

 

[Daftatt]

Still pretty skeptical. On DI away, you can see he gets out of hitstun one frame before being hit and it appears like your inputs in the video are frame perfect. DI away is the correct DI, so that's the only one that matters as any DI but away is easy bair. This makes me think this would be incredibly difficult to actually use and it might not work at all past the % you showed. I'd lab it myself, but I don't have a setup Not saying it doesn't work, just saying I'd need to see more proof to be convinced.

Kinda pointless anyway though since I already know that second only fair DOES work on DI away at those %s and is pretty easy to hit.

Getting out of hitstun 1 frame before you land a hit is still pretty much guaranteed, he couldn't jump to safety, physics delay

he couldn't airdodge, intangibility comes frame 3

My inputs for DI away are only frame perfect in that I act out of IASA, I'm actually doing the setup less than optimally, dashing further then simply down-B divekick without jump connects quicker.

It only becomes easier to connect post 110, I checked, trust me

you need to see more to be convinced? Learn to accept what I say

The comment about ZSS being a hard counter to spacies was a joke, right xD?

she has the best flowchart 0-death off a grab of any character in the game vs fox... so no I wasn't joking

ZSS has the easiest ]reaction based tech chasing in the game, off D-throw forever vs fox, the setup is simply wavedash forward out of D-throw IASA (same as falcon tech-chase) to get in position to cover tech in-place (her solid grab range makes spacing vs getup-shine quite easy

If they DI-Towards on D-throw you'll pass them during the wavedash, just hold towards them to turn out of the wavedash and you'll cover tech in-place just the same. Covering all rolls from this point is as simple as dash JC grab, since ZSS's is one of the best

U-throw will chaingrab until ~70% (haven't tested fully yet). It goes like this

• DI-Towards: turn-grab
  
  
• No-DI: grab
  
  
• DI-Away: Dash-JC-Grab

after about 30% Dash-JC-grab will cover No-DI and DI-away

Around 60% you can U-throw into Nair-Nair-Nair (nairplane until you reach the edge of the stage) then Fair for the kill, definitely reminds me of M2K flowcharts out of marth's u-throw vs Fox...

except ZSS also has reaction based tech-chases to rack up damage underneath platforms...

This character eats fox for breakfast

 

[eideeiit]

@ D Daftatt
Would you also say Falcon counters Fox? That Sheik counters everyone?

Also how come you haven't been infracted thanks to that avatar yet? This site censors "****" for ****'s sake. lol

 

[prem]

While i agree ZSS has a great punish on spacies with the tech chases and all, i don't agree that marth is a hard counter to spacies or anyone really. Wouldn't really argue how bad the matchup is because my opinions on this subject are questionable

 

[Shokio]

Getting out of hitstun 1 frame before you land a hit is still pretty much guaranteed, he couldn't jump to safety, physics delay

he couldn't airdodge, intangibility comes frame 3

My inputs for DI away are only frame perfect in that I act out of IASA, I'm actually doing the setup less than optimally, dashing further then simply down-B divekick without jump connects quicker.

It only becomes easier to connect post 110, I checked, trust me

you need to see more to be convinced? Learn to accept what I say



she has the best flowchart 0-death off a grab of any character in the game vs fox... so no I wasn't joking

ZSS has the easiest ]reaction based tech chasing in the game, off D-throw forever vs fox, the setup is simply wavedash forward out of D-throw IASA (same as falcon tech-chase) to get in position to cover tech in-place (her solid grab range makes spacing vs getup-shine quite easy

If they DI-Towards on D-throw you'll pass them during the wavedash, just hold towards them to turn out of the wavedash and you'll cover tech in-place just the same. Covering all rolls from this point is as simple as dash JC grab, since ZSS's is one of the best

U-throw will chaingrab until ~70% (haven't tested fully yet). It goes like this

• DI-Towards: turn-grab
  
  
• No-DI: grab
  
  
• DI-Away: Dash-JC-Grab

after about 30% Dash-JC-grab will cover No-DI and DI-away

Around 60% you can U-throw into Nair-Nair-Nair (nairplane until you reach the edge of the stage) then Fair for the kill, definitely reminds me of M2K flowcharts out of marth's u-throw vs Fox...

except ZSS also has reaction based tech-chases to rack up damage underneath platforms...

This character eats fox for breakfast

Like I said on your Reddit post, having a great punish game on Fox does not mean that that characters beats Fox. MOST characters body Fox once they actually touch him, that's just the nature of a spacie.

As far as the "flowchart" point goes, have you never played as Roy/Marth vs. Fox? It's literally the most brain-dead combo game on that character, especially Roy. Dtilt combos into a kill move at insanely high percents, and even U-Throw does. You're talking about ZSS getting in these [easily] reactable situations, when other characters can avoid the need for tech chases altogether and straight 0-to-death the guy.

Also, have you tried these tests on a live opponent? I don't believe the best DI was being used. I've never been able to chaingrab a Fox all the way to 70% on an opponent using proper DI. Instead, DI out on an Upthrow at higher percents can lead to a tech chase, which is still really good.

I've beaten Dizzy with ZSS, who is the best Fox in Dallas, never lost to Wonder, the 2nd best, 3-stocked Strongbad's Fox, and 2-0'd Mojo, the best Melee Fox in Texas and 2nd best player in Texas. So I definitely have lots of experience in this MU and I've actually won it more than I have lost it. But that still does not mean that she wins it.

1) ZSS still succumbs to pressure due to weak OoS options, and Fox is pretty much the pressure king.
2) Juggling fast-fallers is hard at low percents due to her low BKBs, so you pretty much HAVE to go for grabs at low percents, which is risky and any good player will realize that and catch on.
3) Even with the nerf, shine spike still destroys ZSS and tethers in-general.
4) The easy-to-react tech chases and high-percents kill confirms account for Fox as well......on the majority of the roster. Fox having Up-Throw Up-Air on people balances out any throw --> kill confirm that they have, meaning there's no advantage there.
5) Spacies are hard for her to edge-guard since she has very skinny, quick moves. The best move she has for that is DSmash, but it's easily avoidable with a good sweetspot or a head-level Phantasm.
6) She still loses neutral to him, as do most characters.

 

[ted dorosheff]

Like I said on your Reddit post, having a great punish game on Fox does not mean that that characters beats Fox. MOST characters body Fox once they actually touch him, that's just the nature of a spacie.

As far as the "flowchart" point goes, have you never played as Roy/Marth vs. Fox? It's literally the most brain-dead combo game on that character, especially Roy. Dtilt combos into a kill move at insanely high percents, and even U-Throw does. You're talking about ZSS getting in these [easily] reactable situations, when other characters can avoid the need for tech chases altogether and straight 0-to-death the guy.

Also, have you tried these tests on a live opponent? I don't believe the best DI was being used. I've never been able to chaingrab a Fox all the way to 70% on an opponent using proper DI. Instead, DI out on an Upthrow at higher percents can lead to a tech chase, which is still really good.

I've beaten Dizzy with ZSS, who is the best Fox in Dallas, never lost to Wonder, the 2nd best, 3-stocked Strongbad's Fox, and 2-0'd Mojo, the best Melee Fox in Texas and 2nd best player in Texas. So I definitely have lots of experience in this MU and I've actually won it more than I have lost it. But that still does not mean that she wins it.

1) ZSS still succumbs to pressure due to weak OoS options, and Fox is pretty much the pressure king.
2) Juggling fast-fallers is hard at low percents due to her low BKBs, so you pretty much HAVE to go for grabs at low percents, which is risky and any good player will realize that and catch on.
3) Even with the nerf, shine spike still destroys ZSS and tethers in-general.
4) The easy-to-react tech chases and high-percents kill confirms account for Fox as well......on the majority of the roster. Fox having Up-Throw Up-Air on people balances out any throw --> kill confirm that they have, meaning there's no advantage there.
5) Spacies are hard for her to edge-guard since she has very skinny, quick moves. The best move she has for that is DSmash, but it's easily avoidable with a good sweetspot or a head-level Phantasm.
6) She still loses neutral to him, as do most characters.

I would disagree that the spacies (aside from wolf) are hard for zss to edge guard. I pretty much just stand right at the edge (in the case of fox and falco) and use the paralyzer to time their recovery options. Once they're stunned, fsmash and done. Wolf is a little trickier, but its usually pretty easy if you stay away from the edge and catch him overshooting the edge.

 

[Shokio]

I would disagree that the spacies (aside from wolf) are hard for zss to edge guard. I pretty much just stand right at the edge (in the case of fox and falco) and use the paralyzer to time their recovery options. Once they're stunned, fsmash and done. Wolf is a little trickier, but its usually pretty easy if you stay away from the edge and catch him overshooting the edge.

It works very well on people who are not accustomed to the MU, for sure. But for an actual competent, adaptive player, there's ways to get around the Down Smash easily. They can Side-B sweetspot to the ledge safely, Firefox/bird at a higher angle and then fall to the ledge, or Side-B at ZSS's head level, which they will fly over the Paralyzer and hit her. Once they learn that, edge-guarding them can become rather difficult. If you can successfully read each option they choose though, it can stay rather simple, yes.

 

[ted dorosheff]

It works very well on people who are not accustomed to the MU, for sure. But for an actual competent, adaptive player, there's ways to get around the Down Smash easily. They can Side-B sweetspot to the ledge safely, Firefox/bird at a higher angle and then fall to the ledge, or Side-B at ZSS's head level, which they will fly over the Paralyzer and hit her. Once they learn that, edge-guarding them can become rather difficult. If you can successfully read each option they choose though, it can stay rather simple, yes.

I'ed say the best of those options would be to side-B zss at head level. The high angle approach leaves them vulnerable to a quick low-angle side tilt, which puts them back off the edge if not killing them. The side-B sweetspot > jump out > side-B again quickness is also not bad, but its easy to shield right after they read your dsmash.

 

[prem]

If they are above the ledge spacies always have a pretty good recovery with a lot of options so you just have to be ready to cover multiple options. regardless dsmash has so little end lag that sometimes i use it to cover the low option and then dtilt or ftilt similar to how spacies edge guard with bair to jab, while othertimes i just grab ledge and try to play it like im a spacie with an invicibile bair. its just a problem because they have a lot of options so even if each recovery option is simple to cover you have to cover all of them

 

[Shokio]

Yeah, thankfully the DSmash doesn't have much endlag so you're still not in a bad position even if you miss. And yeah, that's pretty much what it boils down to Prem. You can cover their options with relative ease, but if and only if you know which option they're chosing. ZSS doesn't really have anything that covers multiple options like that. I guess charging DSmash when they're at stage-level and then the Firefox is one, because the DSmash can cover a potential Side-B and you can cover the fall-down like you guys said, but that's kinda it.

And speaking of DSmash vs. Side-B, even that can be pretty difficult to time at times. It's much easier when they're using it at max distance, cause all you have to do is wait for the end of the attack, but when you're within striking distance, the timing can be pretty tight.

 

[Foo]

So, I was watching shokio play a bit and had a realization. Why do we go for regrab off of upthrow (off bad DI) at all? Upthrow is fast and can be too fast to react to if they aren't expecting a grab punish (kinda like jiggsupthrow) but it seems like most times I see myself or another zss upthrow at low% agains the relevant weight classes they just regrab into another upthrow. It's really a pretty awful option as it just guarantees they di correctly the next time and it only ads a wimpy 6%. I feel like walk-uptilt or instant upair is pretty much always a better option.

 

[Shokio]

So, I was watching shokio play a bit and had a realization. Why do we go for regrab off of upthrow (off bad DI) at all? Upthrow is fast and can be too fast to react to if they aren't expecting a grab punish (kinda like jiggsupthrow) but it seems like most times I see myself or another zss upthrow at low% agains the relevant weight classes they just regrab into another upthrow. It's really a pretty awful option as it just guarantees they di correctly the next time and it only ads a wimpy 6%. I feel like walk-uptilt or instant upair is pretty much always a better option.

Because why not? You can do a regrab and still get a normal follow-up off of it.

I think Up-throw does like 6%? Why do 6%, and then an Up-Air or Nair, when I can get 12% and then do a follow-up?

You get guarantee follow-ups off of Up-Throw at low percents as most character's combo throws do. And even if they fall too fast, you can get an easy tech chase out of it. The only characters where it's really best to go straight into an aerial are on heavies because ZSS will have lots more endlag and they'll get out of hitstun quickly. As well as floaties of course too since you really can't re-grab them in the first place.

 

[Foo]

Because why not? You can do a regrab and still get a normal follow-up off of it.

I think Up-throw does like 6%? Why do 6%, and then an Up-Air or Nair, when I can get 12% and then do a follow-up?

You get guarantee follow-ups off of Up-Throw at low percents as most character's combo throws do. And even if they fall too fast, you can get an easy tech chase out of it. The only characters where it's really best to go straight into an aerial are on heavies because ZSS will have lots more endlag and they'll get out of hitstun quickly. As well as floaties of course too since you really can't re-grab them in the first place.

Because, against charcters like roy, you only get regrab off flubbed DI and they will NOT flub the DI twice in a row back to back. While you can still get an aerial follow up, I've found there is a huge difference hitting them with the middle of your upair vs the edge of it in terms of follow ups. With the former, the extra few frames you say by sending them less distance is more important than 6 more % in most situations. Here's the particular example I saw. https://youtu.be/CZpwYO8xNI4?t=2m42s While it turned out alright, if he had teched in, you would have gotten bad follow up and I think you could have ended his stock off of an upair the way he was DIng.

It's a small thing, but I think it really can make a difference.

 

[Shokio]

Because, against charcters like roy, you only get regrab off flubbed DI and they will NOT flub the DI twice in a row back to back. While you can still get an aerial follow up, I've found there is a huge difference hitting them with the middle of your upair vs the edge of it in terms of follow ups. With the former, the extra few frames you say by sending them less distance is more important than 6 more % in most situations. Here's the particular example I saw. https://youtu.be/CZpwYO8xNI4?t=2m42s While it turned out alright, if he had teched in, you would have gotten bad follow up and I think you could have ended his stock off of an upair the way he was DIng.

It's a small thing, but I think it really can make a difference.

Not flubbing the DI doesn't matter. Like I said, at low percents like that, DI isn't going to get you outta a follow-up, especially if the 2nd throw puts them up on a platform, which is the 2nd reason why I'll use the re-grab. If you pay attention to when I did that in the example I provided, I clearly waited to see where he would tech. So in that split second of waiting, I planned a follow-up for each tech situation. If he tech'd in, I would hit him with the tip reverse Uair, then the backside of Nair, into a double jump Bair, which would've been a shorter combo that would've killed earlier anyway. It's a combo I can manage to do quite often.

In your specific example of wanting to hit the tip or middle of Uair, again, it doesn't truly matter. If I don't have the spacing or time to hit them with the inner part of Uair, then I can go for a Nair, which could either combo into a re-grab or an Uptilt. ZSS's combo game is pretty versatile and you have many different options for many different situations.

I hear what you're saying. I just can't think of a time where going for 2 grabs has screwed me over. So far, I see no reason not to as I've only gotten good results from it.

 

[Foo]

Not flubbing the DI doesn't matter. Like I said, at low percents like that, DI isn't going to get you outta a follow-up, especially if the 2nd throw puts them up on a platform, which is the 2nd reason why I'll use the re-grab. If you pay attention to when I did that in the example I provided, I clearly waited to see where he would tech. So in that split second of waiting, I planned a follow-up for each tech situation. If he tech'd in, I would hit him with the tip reverse Uair, then the backside of Nair, into a double jump Bair, which would've been a shorter combo that would've killed earlier anyway. It's a combo I can manage to do quite often.

In your specific example of wanting to hit the tip or middle of Uair, again, it doesn't truly matter. If I don't have the spacing or time to hit them with the inner part of Uair, then I can go for a Nair, which could either combo into a re-grab or an Uptilt. ZSS's combo game is pretty versatile and you have many different options for many different situations.

I hear what you're saying. I just can't think of a time where going for 2 grabs has screwed me over. So far, I see no reason not to as I've only gotten good results from it.

I'm not arguing that it screws you over, I'm just saying that, in my experience and through my thought, I think you can get better punishes off of a flubbed DI on upthrow than a regrab into a correct DI upthrow. All of the limits on her combo game are by mere frames and pixels. Having a full body length and a half of extra space to work with in a combo makes a big difference.

For instance, since he DI'd correctly on this upair, you only knocked him over off of the hit.

https://youtu.be/CZpwYO8xNI4?t=2m57s

When I said "awful options" I mostly meant it as "always slightly inferior" where, unless you are playing against a spacy in chain grab range, there is always a slightly better option than regrab.

(IRRELEVANT EDIT: GKLJDSFJSDI WISH SHE JUST DIDN'T EVEN HAVE A DASH GRAB IT'S SO BAD AND TRYING TO PRACTICE CHAINGRABBING FOX WHILE HAVING TO DI AWAY ON A SECOND CONTROLLER KEEPS MAKING ME FLUB KSDJFNKSDJNFSD.)