3.6 Wolf Changes

[Swigo]

What do you guys think of the new wolf changes?

http://projectmgame.com/en/news/project-m-3-6-changelist

^ is a link to the entire changelist in case that wasn't immediately obvious from the url

 

[Soft Serve]

nair is -4/-5 on shield, depending on stale moves and such

dash attack is a buff

reverse upsmash hit is buff

dair changes slight nerf, hardly changes anything

wall jump nerf is lame but doesn't change much except scar jumps

 

[The Baron]

nair is -4/-5 on shield, depending on stale moves and such

So is nair officially bad now or are we still in that barely safe range?

 

[Soft Serve]

Its still safe, you should never get shield grabbed unless you're slow on the shine afterwards. shine OoS from fox beats nair shine now probably, and you might not be able to nair>shield before samus/bowser up-bs OoS hit you

 

[The Baron]

Its still safe, you should never get shield grabbed unless you're slow on the shine afterwards. shine OoS from fox beats nair shine now probably, and you might not be able to nair>shield before samus/bowser up-bs OoS hit you

what is unsafe in PM. I know it varies from fighter to fighter, But I always have a hard time figuring out what something has to be on block to be considered unsafe

 

[Soft Serve]

what is unsafe in PM. I know it varies from fighter to fighter, But I always have a hard time figuring out what something has to be on block to be considered unsafe

Generally moves that are more than -3 get shield grabbed before they can dash away/jab, but because spacies have a one frame shine as long as the move is -5 or better you can always shine before a frame perfect shield grab hits.

The only other fast out of shield options are character specific, fox/wolf/falco can shine OoS and hit frame 4/5/6 respectively, GnW up-b OoS hits frame 4 now (counting 1 frame jumpsquat), bowser/samus 5 iirc, and nairs OoS like kirby/shiek/ hit frame 6

 

[Ogopogo]

Sorry, I'm dumb, but does this essentially mean that we shouldn't even bother shield pressure on spacies samus bowser and g&w?

 

[Soft Serve]

Sorry, I'm dumb, but does this essentially mean that we shouldn't even bother shield pressure on spacies samus bowser and g&w?

It means if they show they are very good at frame perfect OoS options, yeah its a bad idea. cross up nair>shield will always still be good against that though. Its really much hard for them to get the timing down perfectly than for us to do it though.

 

[Boiko]

reverse upsmash hit is buff

The angle is less steep, so it hits at a slightly more favorable angle for the opponent.

Smashes
-Up Smash
--Late hit angle 30 -> 40

 

[Soft Serve]

Yeah I couldn't read last night, someone corrected me in the skype group about it lol. Too much hype for Diddy not getting changed, couldn't read changelog well

 

[TimeMuffinPhD]

Looks like we got off pretty nicely. Not sure what that blaster change is all about though.

 

[Soft Serve]

Looks like we got off pretty nicely. Not sure what that blaster change is all about though.

Bug fix, it had a JC frame window like 4 frames before normal IASA when grounded from back when wolf's blaster was JC-able and shine land canceled like a 64 fox shine (it was like that in old old old dev builds iirc)

 

[Jake The Preacher]

What exactly did they change about Dair? Haven't gotten to play 3.6 yet

 

[Ogopogo]

What exactly did they change about Dair? Haven't gotten to play 3.6 yet

It's much laggier. Well, only like 7 frames laggier or so, but it makes a huge difference offstage, especially since Wolf falls so fast. If you dair someone offstage and they meteor cancel and grab the ledge, you're probably in big trouble.

The startup and landing lag is the same, so it may be much worse at edgeguarding now but the combo ability is pretty much the same.

 

[redcometchar]

Welp, rip nair.

Also was kinda hoping for a taunt cancel.

 

[himemiya]

Welp, rip nair.

Also was kinda hoping for a taunt cancel.

Yeah utaunt is a reasonable (why pmbr?)

Anyways,
usmash? I don't think its a big deal atm
Nair? way to limit decent approach options
Neub? Well I never wavedashed with it anyways
walljump? Does wolf recovery options need to be inferior to fox's or something?

 

[Kitanamonk]

Dash attack is a buff against spacies sure, but against floaties this move has just lost a lot of applicability. Dash attack was amazing as an anti-air but now the low knockback and higher lag means that you will get punished for using it at mid-low%. overall I would say this is a nerf, and a needed one. I do like that it is still useful against spacies though, a nice compromise.

As for the Dair nerf, wolfs off stage combo game was stupid, being able to continue Dair shine off-stage combined with a crazy good wall-jump made him look broken. The "double dunk" (Dair meteor - dbl jump - meteor) is much more limited, and the off-stage shine - jump - walljump - Dair is also more limited. Again I like this nerf as it makes a lot of sense.

People have already commmented on the up-smash being a nerf, I think the last hit of up-smash was one of the more janky wolf gimicks. The semi-spike was not really justified given the move is good on its own and I'm glad they fixed it up.

Nair is not a big deal, was a great move, still a great move.

Good changes, adds some balancing polish to an already pretty balanced character.

 

[redcometchar]

^^
Really liked how you described the up smash change.

Dash attack is a buff against spacies

I don't think this is the case, it gets cc'd way longer. Running shine is probably always better

Also I had no idea you could continue to true combo offstage with dair shine. Although cool, by how it sounds at least, I don't think this was as bad as you thought it was. Falco can still do this.

Nair is hardly a good approach now. Not safe on shield, no range, dosen't really combo into anthing other than shine, and dair does that and more. This is definitely his biggest change.

One last point, I don't think anything about his wall jump was broken. I think it has hardly changed, but still I find it kind of random.

 

[Kitanamonk]

I don't think this is the case, it gets cc'd way longer. Running shine is probably always better

The thing with dash attack is that it is now easier to combo into extender moves like up-tilt, shine, and more dash-attacks at mid percents, and easier to combo into Bair and Fair as finishes at higher percents. "it gets cc'd way longer" isn't a big deal for 2 reasons:
1. this is PM where CC is really powerful anyway

2. dash-attack was never that good against grounded opponents in the first place, its best use is as an anti-air. It has a good disjoint letting you beat shffl options from your opponent like Falcons Nair. Also catching opponents coming down, it can trade even with falco's Dair and leave you in the better position.
Running shine is nowhere near as good for this as it hits very close to the ground.

Also I had no idea you could continue to true combo offstage with dair shine. Although cool, by how it sounds at least, I don't think this was as bad as you thought it was. Falco can still do this.

I play a lot of Falco and yes he can do this, however his shine-dair is way more risky than 3.5 wolf because how long the move stays out for, it also only works at smaller percent ranges than wolfs. I manage off-stage falco's shine-dair once in a while, but with wolf's I would do it almost every game.

One last point, I don't think anything about his wall jump was broken. I think it has hardly changed, but still I find it kind of random.

I loved his wall jump, it was one of my favourite recovery mix-ups combined with god like scar jumps, and it worked as a combo extender. I agree it wasn't broken, however that doesn't mean it wasn't more powerful than wolf deserved. Wolf's recovery is still great without it so I don't mind. I did experience some salt about wolfs off stage game and how fighting him feels like he has 3 jumps, so I can understand the nerf.

 

[The Baron]

^^
Really liked how you described the up smash change.



I don't think this is the case, it gets cc'd way longer. Running shine is probably always better

Also I had no idea you could continue to true combo offstage with dair shine. Although cool, by how it sounds at least, I don't think this was as bad as you thought it was. Falco can still do this.

Nair is hardly a good approach now. Not safe on shield, no range, dosen't really combo into anthing other than shine, and dair does that and more. This is definitely his biggest change.

One last point, I don't think anything about his wall jump was broken. I think it has hardly changed, but still I find it kind of random.

After playing some matches, I feel like wolf just needs to play a lot more like captain falcon. Just keep weaving in and out, not approaching much at all, camping with lasers, and punishing mistakes super hard since out shield pressure isn't the best now since we lost nair. That dash attack helps with punishes alot, and our default combo game is still good enough to reliably combo into kill or combo into a good reset situation for us. Wolf mains just need to be a lot more patient now and keep doing what we've been doing. Except dairing off the stage ALL the time. Now it's just most of the time.

 

[ACAL Squall]

So this kinda changes how rushdown Wolf players (like myself) do things. I haven't had a chance to play 3.6 yet. Is it that different? I personally use Nair as an approach 80% of the time.

 

[redcometchar]

So this kinda changes how rushdown Wolf players (like myself) do things. I haven't had a chance to play 3.6 yet. Is it that different? I personally use Nair as an approach 80% of the time.

I believe back air is a better approach now. Like a pseudo fox nair. It does everything nair does but better, with the exception of the fact that the timing is less lenient. We cant just dive in with an aerial now and cover a bunch of options, we have to decide between late bair and early bair which cover different options.

As much as I don't like it I feel like this was a healthy change for wolf. Now we actually have to space stuff on shield lol

I really don't understand why dash attack would ever be better than running shine for juggling. I always used it as more of an anti air.

 

[Kitanamonk]

So this kinda changes how rushdown Wolf players (like myself) do things. I haven't had a chance to play 3.6 yet. Is it that different? I personally use Nair as an approach 80% of the time.

Nair is still safe against shield vs most of the cast, as long as you nair shine vs shield grab. Us aggro wolfs don't need to change much.

I believe back air is a better approach now. Like a pseudo fox nair. It does everything nair does but better, with the exception of the fact that the timing is less lenient. We cant just dive in with an aerial now and cover a bunch of options, we have to decide between late bair and early bair which cover different options.

As much as I don't like it I feel like this was a healthy change for wolf. Now we actually have to space stuff on shield lol

I really don't understand why dash attack would ever be better than running shine for juggling. I always used it as more of an anti air.

Wolf's bair is no where close to as good as Fox nair, its not frame safe on shield, doesn't stay out as long (this is so important), and doesn't lead into much (Fox has Nair - Upsmash against the whole cast). Nor does it have the follow ups netted by Wolf's Nair, Nair-shine gives you all of the options that lead from shine.

If you want to stop using Nair, use Dair instead. Dair leads to huge punishes, and is safe on shield.

 

[ForgottenLabRat]

Anyone else think the Dair change we unnecessary, no more double dunks on people who didn't jump cancel. The thing is that it was only stylish when they missed their MC and were basically dead anyways, all it did was remove some hype and hurt his combo game which also removed hype. I think the only reason they are nerfing Wolf is because Neon is a beast with him.

 

[XF_Awkward]

I really don't understand why dash attack would ever be better than running shine for juggling. I always used it as more of an anti air.

Anti air is great, but it seems like everyone seems to forget this about shine. The move does 5%, and then less after staling. If you can shine, run and then shine again, you're gonna get 9-10% damage. Dash attack (I believe) does 9% on its own. Hitting multiple shines is great, but you have got to start mixing up your moves if you're going to tack on any real damage.

If you want to stop using Nair, use Dair instead. Dair leads to huge punishes, and is safe on shield.

Basically this. Cross up dair and nair are still incredible options. Dair's only been changed to not be so silly in air/offstage.

I kinda want to mention this because I don't think its been talked about much and I think we should. Dair-->Shine-->Dair-->Shine basically doesn't work anymore, or at least it shouldn't. With the new IASA frames, a lot of the cast can either jump out mid combo or up-b before you have a chance to land or shine again. If you are trying to full hop dair to continue a combo, I think its just a matter of time before people realize they can avoid it.

 

[redcometchar]

Nair is still safe against shield vs most of the cast, as long as you nair shine vs shield grab. Us aggro wolfs don't need to change much.



Wolf's bair is no where close to as good as Fox nair, its not frame safe on shield, doesn't stay out as long (this is so important), and doesn't lead into much (Fox has Nair - Upsmash against the whole cast). Nor does it have the follow ups netted by Wolf's Nair, Nair-shine gives you all of the options that lead from shine.

If you want to stop using Nair, use Dair instead. Dair leads to huge punishes, and is safe on shield.

Nair is not safe on shield, you said it yourself, if its only safe vs shield grab its not safe.

Bair has a plethora of followups including side b, shine, Dash attack since we seem to like it now, and up smash.

Bair on shield is just as safe as fox nair on shield.

And you cant punish rolls on reaction after dair.

 

[redcometchar]

And just so we are clear Dair is -2 on shield if unstaled and it hits the latest possible frame meaning your exposed during the whole approach.

Also @ XF_Awkward Don't you hit the ground before you shine anyway? So you just l cancel the move?

 

[XF_Awkward]

And just so we are clear Dair is -2 on shield if unstaled and it hits the latest possible frame meaning your exposed during the whole approach.

Wolf's kinda all about masking your approach anyway. He's not like fox/falco where he can yolo nair/dair and expect it to at least trade. You should expect to get stuffed if you're not covering your approach with dash dance/lazer etc. Thats just kinda the **** we wolf mains put up with, having no priority in exchange for godtier combo game. Getting in is tough, but when we do its a jackpot.

 

[redcometchar]

That's what I think we all have to understand now is that Wolf really isn't a pressure character.

Not that he has a bad approach. Still has decent options and laser and stuff. Just decent at best.

Also that move staling coment about dash attack and running shine was a good point, didn't think of that.

 

[XF_Awkward]

And just so we are clear Dair is -2 on shield if unstaled and it hits the latest possible frame meaning your exposed during the whole approach.

Also @ XF_Awkward Don't you hit the ground before you shine anyway? So you just l cancel the move?

What I'm getting at is that if you try to do something like rising full hop dair, it won't work against smart players. Hell even dumb players can accidentally get out of it. Playing a snake the other day, I shine-- full hop dair to catch his di, and before I can get back down he's up-b'd out. It got to the point where I just adjusted and did up air juggles forever, whereas before if he would have tried that I could have at least dbl jump daired and caught him or something of the like.

 

[G13_Flux]

The Nair change really isn't terrible. A lot of characters don't have quicker OOS options than their grab. Its also not hard to cross up with it. Its multi hit nature already makes it great against shields. Its really not going to hurt his overall effectiveness.

The dair change is kind of marginal IMO. Wolf can still go pretty deep and still use a second aerial

The upsmash change I kind of didn't like, but again, mostly marginal.

Dash attack was warranted.

That's what I think we all have to understand now is that Wolf really isn't a pressure character.

Not that he has a bad approach. Still has decent options and laser and stuff. Just decent at best.

Also that move staling coment about dash attack and running shine was a good point, didn't think of that.

Wolf is still a pressure character. Fox and falco are exceptions.. They're extreme pressure characters. Wolf still has many tactics for pressure (in and out of shield) that literally 95 percent of the rest of the cast doesn't have. Between all the shine techs, his amazing dash dance and run speed, a great projectile for approaching, and quick, long ranged space coverage options (bair, dash attack, fsmash, dsmash, dacus just for a couple example) he still excels heavily at keeping the heat on and continuing chases. Nerfing Nair by 1 percent isn't gonna change that.

 

[ACAL Squall]

Anybody mess around with SH Uair as an approach?

 

[ForgottenLabRat]

Ok what did they do to Nair that was so bad, the Change Log says they gave it more hit lag, and reduced the dmg by one.

 

[proto235]

Anybody mess around with SH Uair as an approach?

uair is not safe on shield at all, and it doesn't have the range to compensate for this, so it really isn't that great for approaching grounded opponents. It's still great as a non-committal approach vs opponents on platforms, though.

 

[G13_Flux]

Ok what did they do to Nair that was so bad, the Change Log says they gave it more hit lag, and reduced the dmg by one.

thats it. it really isnt that bad. all it does is reduce your safety on shield by one frame. this allows poeple to roll away ever so slightly more easily, but thats about it.

wolfs changes honestly arent bad. they were just minor tweaks to trim some of the excess off.

 

[redcometchar]

Isn't nair like -4/-5 on shield now? When they reduced damage it also reduced shield stun.

And that means stuff like ganons fair is safer on shield.

 

[XF_Awkward]

Isn't nair like -4/-5 on shield now? When they reduced damage it also reduced shield stun.

And that means stuff like ganons fair is safer on shield.

It is -4/-5 on shield, but we still have shine to cover that up. If you try to nair --> slow option, you run the risk of getting beat with an OOS option, but nair shine is still reliable, unless someone is godly at frame perfect shield grab. It might not be "free" shield pressure, but its like $0.25 pressure so its still pretty free.

 

[The Baron]

Anybody mess around with SH Uair as an approach?

I have. It's meh imo. Dair and nair are just better

It might not be "free" shield pressure, but its like $0.25 pressure so its still pretty free.

I'm stealing this

 

[ForgottenLabRat]

thats it. it really isnt that bad. all it does is reduce your safety on shield by one frame. this allows poeple to roll away ever so slightly more easily, but thats about it.

wolfs changes honestly arent bad. they were just minor tweaks to trim some of the excess off.

Thank you for the clarification.

 

[Spiffykins]

ppl were talking about bair, i've put down pm for quite some time so i just want to make sure you can still autocancel short hop bair, yeah?