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3.6 backthrow

Arcalyth

GLS | root
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Oct 1, 2012
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Basically wondering why the change was made and why they opted to eliminate the grab mixup and the kill setups that come with it.

Mind you I haven't played yet so excuse my ignorance. But on paper it sounds like a nerf and I don't understand?
 

foxygrandpa

Smash Journeyman
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Jul 30, 2013
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Basically wondering why the change was made and why they opted to eliminate the grab mixup and the kill setups that come with it.

Mind you I haven't played yet so excuse my ignorance. But on paper it sounds like a nerf and I don't understand?
It's a nerf. There's really no way around it.
I'm still really optimistic about sheik though. She still definitely has the tools to compete with the majority of the cast and still probably retained a couple of positive matchups, although her matchup spread is more normalized now. She actually plays a little more like melee sheik in terms of bthrow setups, which I kind of like, although im a little upset to lose the mixup after getting good with it for so many years.
She probably loses worse to falco and wolf now, though.

On a side note, does her dthrow feel different to anyone else? Its possible that a global grab fix might be throwing me off.

She's kind of literally a slightly worse melee sheik now, since losing the bthrow cost her a lot of the individuality in terms of design. I understand that it might be better for overall design goals but I'm kind of bummed that other melee tops like marth falco and jiggs don't really have to learn anything switching between games.
 

Sharpman767

Smash Rookie
Joined
Jun 8, 2012
Messages
22
Location
Illinois
Her dthrow has a lot more hitlag on it, this also makes it way easier to DI. Huge nerf overall, pretty saddening
 

4tlas

Smash Lord
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Sep 30, 2014
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I really don't like the change to bthrow, but I haven't tried it yet. If its literally Melee bthrow, I might drop Sheilda and just play Zelda on principle of it being a distinct change from Melee that I thought was an improvement. Not that I particularly like the Zelda changes...
 

Arcalyth

GLS | root
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I really don't like the change to bthrow, but I haven't tried it yet. If its literally Melee bthrow, I might drop Sheilda and just play Zelda on principle of it being a distinct change from Melee that I thought was an improvement. Not that I particularly like the Zelda changes...
I'm in the same boat which I never thought would happen. Both of my mains changed drastically in 3.5/6 that's been the same since 2.1. Sigh.

I'll play with it later, maybe it's easier to bthrow>needle edge guard and the like, but I can't wait to just dthrow tech chase people all day. (Sarcasm)

She doesn't have her melee needles either. But I also noticed they nerfed the **** out of fox too so... maybe I'll just pick up Marth who gets to keep all of his PM stuff. >___>

At shuffle 5 in Ohio someone was surprised at my sheik's "custom Combos" cause sheik generally does the same thing all day. So now i sure am glad my character just got reduced to a flowchart by removing her throw mixup :)
 
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DrLobster

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From what I'm seeing, it seems like they're just making 3.6 Sheik equal to PAL Sheik. Which would be fine, if they did that with the other Melee characters (re: probably just Fox), but now it seems like Sheik is going to fall back to her 3.02 days.

cri ever tim
 
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Arcalyth

GLS | root
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Oct 1, 2012
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I wonder if it will be easier to get tech chase off of lighter characters like squirtle with bthrow? Cause with good DI they tend to be able to escape and retaliate in <3.6

Still haven't played. Won't be able to for a few days but I'm suuuuper curious.
 

RedEyesWhiteSwaggin

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Jan 19, 2014
Messages
94
From what I'm seeing, it seems like they're just making 3.6 Sheik equal to PAL Sheik. Which would be fine, if they did that with the other Melee characters (re: probably just Fox), but now it seems like Sheik is going to fall back to her 3.02 days.

cri ever tim
Fox is already significantly worse than PAL. No shine invincibility, actually has landing lag on recovery, pal usmash, and significantly worse shine spike.
 

Missile

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Dec 27, 2008
Messages
95
I hate it when the PMDT just doesn't seem to make up their mind. Every once in a while they say they don't want the game to be like Melee.

Then they revert Fox's upB to Melee status in 3.5.

Now they add lag to it, and wreck aerial shine, and also wreck what I loved about PM Sheik which was NOT PLAYING MELEE SHEIK.

Her back throw is bad, the hitlag on the down throw is bad, I don't see why they keep changing stuff that is just fine and don't address stuff that is useless instead e.g. the chain.
 

Journal

Smash Apprentice
Joined
May 21, 2015
Messages
126
and also wreck what I loved about PM Sheik which was NOT PLAYING MELEE SHEIK.
This. The DI mixups were part of what made PM Sheik really fun and not brain dead. With 3.5, I'm not just going to downthrow every opportunity I get. In 3.5, I might do that a bit to condition my opponent, and then I'm playing a mindgame where they know I'm in their head. That was fun. That was interesting. That required me to think about my choices when I've got the grab. Now that we're in 3.6, it's back to the old grab flowchart. Yawn.
 
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DrLobster

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Fox is already significantly worse than PAL. No shine invincibility, actually has landing lag on recovery, pal usmash, and significantly worse shine spike.
Oh yeah, I forgot about those lol. Sorry, wasn't really thinking when I made that post, just was acting upset over backthrow nerf.
 

AuraMaudeGone

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Oct 19, 2011
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I played 3.6 for a while today. The main thing that's bothering me is they removed the IASA from B-Throw. That discourages many follow ups at mid percents.
 

foxygrandpa

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I'm pretty sure that its just NTSC dair with a smaller hitbox on the sourspot. Not positive on that. Falco is fine to me though, new matchups and stage list already hurt him and he's not really dominating anyone. If anyone needed to be looked at instead of sheik, its roy. That character was already objectively better than sheik and had virtually nothing done to him. Rob was also one of the few characters that beat him, and he was nerfed. It honestly seems like they just nerfed sheik and rob so badly because people didn't like them.
 

4tlas

Smash Lord
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Sep 30, 2014
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So I've played with it. It's Melee. I hate it.

Yeah I can get bthrow needle gimps, or I could've gotten old bthrow -> bad DI -> fair -> needle gimp. And if we're on that ledge they should be able to DI correctly because putting them offstage is obvious. Now they can't even DI against that. There's just nothing interesting for either player to do.
 

Journal

Smash Apprentice
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May 21, 2015
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One thing that is super great about this throw is that it sets up for gimps really well. I'm working on flowcharting edgeguards vs spacies right now, and I'll get back to you guys with it when it's done, hopefully in a couple of weeks.
 

4tlas

Smash Lord
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So after playing with this change in a tournament setting, I've concluded that I hate it so much I'm thinking of quitting competitive PM. With no grab game, there's nothing preventing my opponents from just shielding or CC'ing everything Sheik has. I can't just play smarter than my opponent, I have to also be precise and technical, and I don't care for that. Let me know if anything changes. I'll be over on the Zelda forums, because at least she's still a cool character. Maybe I'll go play the more fun version of this character in Melee, even.
 

Journal

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May 21, 2015
Messages
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So after playing with this change in a tournament setting, I've concluded that I hate it so much I'm thinking of quitting competitive PM. With no grab game, there's nothing preventing my opponents from just shielding or CC'ing everything Sheik has. I can't just play smarter than my opponent, I have to also be precise and technical, and I don't care for that. Let me know if anything changes. I'll be over on the Zelda forums, because at least she's still a cool character. Maybe I'll go play the more fun version of this character in Melee, even.
Personally, I'm considering picking up Pit (more due to the fact that I already play this Sheik in melee than anything), and if you want to pick up another character as well, that's one hundred percent your choice, but I've found that you can often follow up on DI away downthrow with a dash-wavedash ftilt or dtilt or something, which easily leads to fair, and that the back throw is way better for setting up early percent gimps, you just need to learn the edgeguarding harder because that's going to be what her gameplay is probably centered around in the future. Personally, I think the edgeguards are as mental, if not more so, than the grab game, just because you need to think about all of the options the opponent could have in their space, and how you can cover as many of those as possible. Something to think about.
 

4tlas

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Personally, I'm considering picking up Pit (more due to the fact that I already play this Sheik in melee than anything), and if you want to pick up another character as well, that's one hundred percent your choice, but I've found that you can often follow up on DI away downthrow with a dash-wavedash ftilt or dtilt or something, which easily leads to fair, and that the back throw is way better for setting up early percent gimps, you just need to learn the edgeguarding harder because that's going to be what her gameplay is probably centered around in the future. Personally, I think the edgeguards are as mental, if not more so, than the grab game, just because you need to think about all of the options the opponent could have in their space, and how you can cover as many of those as possible. Something to think about.
I don't disagree, but I also have some other reasons for wanting to quit. I am not a technical player by any means, and while Sheik may be just as good as before if I adapt, it won't be as fun. Perhaps I will still play but drop Sheik and stay with Zelda, but that really bums me out because I just got notably good at the end of 3.5 and my character (Sheilda) got changed extremely drastically 2 patches in a row (Zelda then Sheik) in ways that were less fun for me. Maybe that feeling of disappointment and outrage over my character getting big changes will subside, but for now I'm done competing. Not that I had much time to play before, due to running the tournaments...
 

Arcalyth

GLS | root
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Finally got my hands on 3.6 and I think I'll take the edgeguarding setups over onstage hard combos. I don't mind it but I'll definitely miss bthrow > usmash :(

Edit: just kidding, I ****ing hate it. The most common reward off of grab now is simply a reset.
 
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4tlas

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Finally got my hands on 3.6 and I think I'll take the edgeguarding setups over onstage hard combos. I don't mind it but I'll definitely miss bthrow > usmash :(

Edit: just kidding, I ****ing hate it. The most common reward off of grab now is simply a reset.
A reset is not a huge problem. Like, making her grab game all about automatic techchases doesn't make her a bad character. Its just boring as all hell. Being able to bthrow offstage gimp may make Sheik stronger, even. But its just so boring. And she returns to basically having 1 throw again, ew.

If they didn't want her reward to be at best regrab at worst techchase, then increase the BKB so it was at best regrab/techchase (your pick) and at worst nothing. Or if it was the chaingrab being too good, reduce the damage done per throw so you needed more reads to get in the same damage.
 

ATLAScx

Smash Rookie
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May 29, 2015
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I really don't like the change to bthrow, but I haven't tried it yet. If its literally Melee bthrow, I might drop Sheilda and just play Zelda on principle of it being a distinct change from Melee that I thought was an improvement. Not that I particularly like the Zelda changes...
Well, well, well, I stumble across the person that took my username...
 

Boiko

:drshrug:
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A few things, even with proper DI, Sheik can boost regrab a small portion of the cast until they DI off stage. Forcing a tech is much better for rewarding higher levels of play than "my non-reactable, 50/50 coin flip, DI mix up into kill move at 80% worked." What's fun and interactive about that? Anyone can do it, good player or not. Good players will be much more proficient at tech chasing, and edge guarding, which is how Sheik should be played IMO. Not fishing for a grab into a 50/50 kill conversion. Also, you can use stage positioning for dthrow mix ups since it will still combo into tipper up smash with bad DI.

Anyway, that's just my opinion.
 

4tlas

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A few things, even with proper DI, Sheik can boost regrab a small portion of the cast until they DI off stage. Forcing a tech is much better for rewarding higher levels of play than "my non-reactable, 50/50 coin flip, DI mix up into kill move at 80% worked." What's fun and interactive about that? Anyone can do it, good player or not. Good players will be much more proficient at tech chasing, and edge guarding, which is how Sheik should be played IMO. Not fishing for a grab into a 50/50 kill conversion. Also, you can use stage positioning for dthrow mix ups since it will still combo into tipper up smash with bad DI.

Anyway, that's just my opinion.

I can understand the "Sheik should be about techchasing and edgeguarding" argument. After all, those are already strengths she has, so its not much of a stretch to say that's how she should be played. But I enjoyed this part of her game that was different from the techchase/edgeguard part. And the 50/50 can work as a coin flip, sure. But predicting which one your opponent was going to DI for was a read, and that's something good players are good at too. I was very good at getting into my opponent's heads. And if they didn't want the 50/50 kill conversion that would've been fine with me, just change the knockback so bad DI was boost regrab or dash attack and good DI was escape (or techchase, or w/e). I don't care about whether or not I can chaingrab the opponent, I care about that mindgame that occurred every time I threw. Those reads were exciting, while techchases are more reactive. Still thrilling, but I get enough of that playing Sheik already.
 

foxygrandpa

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A few things, even with proper DI, Sheik can boost regrab a small portion of the cast until they DI off stage. Forcing a tech is much better for rewarding higher levels of play than "my non-reactable, 50/50 coin flip, DI mix up into kill move at 80% worked." What's fun and interactive about that? Anyone can do it, good player or not. Good players will be much more proficient at tech chasing, and edge guarding, which is how Sheik should be played IMO. Not fishing for a grab into a 50/50 kill conversion. Also, you can use stage positioning for dthrow mix ups since it will still combo into tipper up smash with bad DI.

Anyway, that's just my opinion.
Boiko :)

I mean, the boost grab thing is reliable on only a couple of characters. Dthrow to tipper upsmash is pretty helpful sometimes but will never come into play against players who know the matchup. A lot of the cast has grabs that are literally always free followups with some other DI mixup. From my last set with you, I think that you wouldnt have an issue recgonizing that ike's uthrow is probably one of if not the best throws in the game, but can still net kills of fthrow and bthrow mixup. It wasn't the issue of interaction that warranted the change, the change was to nerf sheik. What's interactive about ike that sheik didn't have before? Both could carry tech chases and combos fairly easily especially off grabs mixups. Even ness has pretty guaranteed stuff off of his dthrow, and a bthrow kill option, although I acknowledge that he doesn't really fall into the same category. I'd argue that a mixup that forced players to guess where they were being thrown based on tendencies and positioning was more interactive than dthrow-->dthrow-->dthrow-->dthrow-->dthrow.

Sheik lost her guaranteed (or 50/50) kill setup off a grab, which is unprecedented for anyone who has ever played the charater and is pretty much is the change everyone's pissed about. Sheik still obviously has one of the best throw games, and I actually prefer her melee bthrow against everyone (except roy, but it seems that speculating that character is heresy). The issue is that the mixup has been around for years and people have spent time learning it over 3+ iterations of pm. Personally, I actually liked pm over melee for the sole reason of sheik being more fun and less braindead than melee, because let's face it, melee dthrow is boring. Changing sheik's throw game was inconsistent with the patch (no one except maybe bowser got a change as significant) in the sense that it made her more like melee, which is upsetting to project m sheik players. There were other things they could have done, like change her uthrow so uthrow/dthrow would be a mixup without as potent tech chases, or maybe just make her grabs a little bit slower or change the scaling on them they wouldn't be as good at high percents or cause knockdown at low percents.
I can't deny that her matchup spread was maybe a little over the top, but there were multiple ways that she couldve been changed while still being fun.

Sheik is still good but I'll be playing ike and maybe even mk way more than her. She's more boring than even melee sheik, which is really saying something.
 

Boiko

:drshrug:
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Boiko :)

I mean, the boost grab thing is reliable on only a couple of characters. Dthrow to tipper upsmash is pretty helpful sometimes but will never come into play against players who know the matchup. A lot of the cast has grabs that are literally always free followups with some other DI mixup. From my last set with you, I think that you wouldnt have an issue recgonizing that ike's uthrow is probably one of if not the best throws in the game, but can still net kills of fthrow and bthrow mixup. It wasn't the issue of interaction that warranted the change, the change was to nerf sheik. What's interactive about ike that sheik didn't have before? Both could carry tech chases and combos fairly easily especially off grabs mixups. Even ness has pretty guaranteed stuff off of his dthrow, and a bthrow kill option, although I acknowledge that he doesn't really fall into the same category. I'd argue that a mixup that forced players to guess where they were being thrown based on tendencies and positioning was more interactive than dthrow-->dthrow-->dthrow-->dthrow-->dthrow.

Sheik lost her guaranteed (or 50/50) kill setup off a grab, which is unprecedented for anyone who has ever played the charater and is pretty much is the change everyone's pissed about. Sheik still obviously has one of the best throw games, and I actually prefer her melee bthrow against everyone (except roy, but it seems that speculating that character is heresy). The issue is that the mixup has been around for years and people have spent time learning it over 3+ iterations of pm. Personally, I actually liked pm over melee for the sole reason of sheik being more fun and less braindead than melee, because let's face it, melee dthrow is boring. Changing sheik's throw game was inconsistent with the patch (no one except maybe bowser got a change as significant) in the sense that it made her more like melee, which is upsetting to project m sheik players. There were other things they could have done, like change her uthrow so uthrow/dthrow would be a mixup without as potent tech chases, or maybe just make her grabs a little bit slower or change the scaling on them they wouldn't be as good at high percents or cause knockdown at low percents.
I can't deny that her matchup spread was maybe a little over the top, but there were multiple ways that she couldve been changed while still being fun.

Sheik is still good but I'll be playing ike and maybe even mk way more than her. She's more boring than even melee sheik, which is really saying something.
I actually pretty much agree 100 percent and I think this is a really great post (especially the part about Roy, why is that character still so good??). I think you're right, her throw is no longer as unique as it was before. I think you're suggestions are pretty good as well:

There were other things they could have done, like change her uthrow so uthrow/dthrow would be a mixup without as potent tech chases, or maybe just make her grabs a little bit slower or change the scaling on them they wouldn't be as good at high percents or cause knockdown at low percents.
Basically sums up what I would want playing AGAINST Sheik. For me, having to deal with a guess that would kill me at 70-80% on every stage that isn't DL felt pretty lame.

I pretty much agree with you on all points because I know you're super good (probably have better wins than everyone here), and you're very understanding regarding your character's strengths.

Also, I'm making MK my secondary again. Super fun to play, super good character. Scared to see what you and Cubby are going to do with him.
 

Arcalyth

GLS | root
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To be fair we can still tech chase off of all 4 throws, and on stages with platforms uthrow can come in handy. I found that playing Sheik with more of a Smash 4 mindset (where the followups aren't as guaranteed and zoning is more crucial to followups) helped me a lot. Plus just staying fresh and creative and not falling into a mindset of X character MUST be played THIS way.

I think over time we'll find more creative ways to effectively use all 4 throws. It just requires a shift in perspective and a thoughtful analyais of what Sheik wants vs different weight classes. The throw changes have definitely forced me to improve my movement and tech chasing ability so it's not all bad.

PLUS let's not forget the power of regrabs, especially boost-regrab. Off of tilts too. As others have mentioned, boost grab covers proper DI for dthrow on a good portion of the cast well into tech-chase percents.

P.S. there's never been a better time to pick up Sheilda. For real.
 
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4tlas

Smash Lord
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P.S. there's never been a better time to pick up Sheilda. For real.
I would argue every version has gotten worse for Sheilda. 3.02 had no endlag, 3.5 had a decent amount, 3.6 the transform takes longer due to the sheer quantity of stuff in the build. That's just transform itself. Both characters were nerfed as well (Zelda in 3.5, Sheik in 3.6), though that could be argued as being good for Sheilda because each character needs the other more...
 

Journal

Smash Apprentice
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May 21, 2015
Messages
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Okay, you know what's actually really freaking sweet now? Sheik's pivot grab. Run behind them, pivot grab, and back throw off the ledge to set up an easy edgeguard.
 
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