3.5 Stagelist Discussion

[Jamwa]

With the release of 3.5 and the obvious time wasting that goes on when people pick stages, I've been planning with Dom to make a stage select screen that makes it obvious to players what they should ban so that tournaments can run more smoothly.

For this reason we want to cut down the stagelist to 5 starters and 5 counterpicks. 3 starters is a possibility for balance reasoning but to be honest I don't think many people will actually want this for reasons like "fun" and "diversity".

To begin, TK Breezy, a TO of Xanadu who holds weeklies I believe proposed a stagelist with one of the PM devs on reddit and asked for discussion regarding his stagelist. This occurred during the 3.02 build and is as follows:

Starters
Green Hill Zone
Pokemon Stadium 2
Smashville
Battlefield
Dream Land

Counters
Yoshi's Island
Wario Ware
Final Destination
Norfair
Yoshi's Story

The issue with this stagelist that was expressed was that Norfair, when the platforms moved to some locations, became a very imbalanced stage towards characters with low double jumps, especially Ganondorf as he could not reach the platforms. Some said YS should be replaced with FoD as it is too similar to WW, however the counterpoint was made that FoD has too similar blast zones to GHZ and thus shouldn't be replaced. Otherwise, it was widely accepted among their community. You can see TK Breezy's reasoning here. Please watch it.

For a more recent stagelist, VGBC hosted a 3.5 tournament with the following stagelist:

Starters
Green Hill Zone
Pokemon Stadium 2
Smashville
BattlefieldFinal Destination

Counters
Yoshi's Island
Wario Ware
Yoshi's Story
Dream Land
Distant Planet
Fountain of Dreams

There is yet to be discussion regarding this but it was said they will be revising it as 3.5 develops.

Now for our stagelist, I would like to propose

Starters
Green Hill Zone
Pokemon Stadium 2
Smashville
Battlefield
Dream Land

CountersYoshi's Island
Wario Ware
Final Destination
Skyworld (or Norfair)
Yoshi's Story
For stage data, please consider these links. Please note these are for 3.02 stages.
coordinates of boundaries
Blast zones graphed relatively (charizard glides from the centre)

I know Skyworld is controversial. Many people have a personal issue with the stage. When I say personal, I refer to confusion regarding the clouds and inability to sweet spot the ledge. With 3.5, many reverse ledge grab boxes have been increased so this really should not be an issue if you familiarize yourself with the stage. I personally have no problem with the clouds and find it easier to waveland on them than say Dreamlands, because yes this is a personal point, please don't let stuff like this influence your opinion regarding this stage.

There is also the issue that the top platform is too high; quite like Norfair but not as high.

I personally think this stage has a healthy meta surrounding it as it has offstage platforms for recovery mixups, but it also aids gimping by providing additional movement options. The top platform is also high enough to allow certain character to combo without being disrupted, but players can DI towards the outermost platforms to compensate.

The other reason is that the stage is relatively big, so that during counterpicks you can choose from Dreamland and Skyworld. yes Norfair is also big, however I'm concerned that the platform movement will hinder some character who would otherwise pick that stage for its size. I also think the off-stage platforms not constantly being there on Norfair are a negative when compared to Skyworld. This is a discussion though, and I'm open to alternatives that will fill the size slot that Norfair/Skyworld are currently in. Perhaps the new Distant Planet is more appropriate in this slot? Or even Norfair more so if it has changed?

I do not think FoD can replace Skyworld, as while it is similar in height (still smaller than GHZ so not really similar actually) it is so much smaller in terms of width. A bit more than half in size. The platform formations are also not similar to Skyworld's. They hinder combos and can entirely reverse combos if someone happens to ledge cancel the tumble animation on a platform, which is even more frequent when platforms rise. They do offer recover mixups but this is only when the platforms are arranged correctly, kind of like Norfair.


Now to argue the starters

The foundation here is much the same of what TKB explained. Most starter picks end up on SV, BF, and PS2.
I feel that if GHZ was replaced with YS, there is 3 stages in the starters list that have 3 platforms, and I feel this isn't very balanced. FD was removed because no platforms is unfair, however you will not end up on a stage with no platforms. PS2 is probably the most balanced stage in this game as it has 2 platforms that people can DI towards without being completely disadvantaged as they would on FD. I won't list every matchup advantage/disadvantage (because I can't think of many), however examples are appreciated for counter reasoning of GHZ over YS.

The starters is balanced around 2 single moving platform stages, 1 double platformed stage, and 2 tri platformed stages.

the counterpicks also represent balance in the platforms, but its a bit harder to classify the formations of Wario Ware or Skyworld as tri or anything. they are all quite unique but encompassing, and there is not too much overlap of similar stages so that you cannot ban a stage your character is extremely hard to win with on. Remember you're being counterpicked, so you will end up on a stage that disadvantaged you but with 2 bans you should be able to cover all stages that are horrible for your character.

Here is a mockup Dom is working on if you would like to critique how to organise the stagelist. Dom will be adding identifiers for starters/cps and also Twitch and Twitter logos for people viewing streams.

Ty for reading.
i will respond as counterpoints are made and revise the stagelist with edits
some more discussion

 

[Meredy]

I for one would hate to see Fountain of Dreams gone, but I do like the 5 Starters.

 

[PrettyCoolGuy]

Why is fod gone? Legit curious

 

[Jamwa]

Why is fod gone? Legit curious

We want less stages so FoD isn't in the list. It doesn't provide anything more to the stages listed. It's basically battlefield but with moving platforms. If we had a bigger stagelist, then yeah sure, but the current stagelist just takes too long, and many people also are in two minds about such stages like FoD so it just adds to time when people think about that stuff.

 

[Chappos]

I'm a fan of the proposed stage list. I'm certain Perth will be running it/something very similar.

 

[1ampercent]

Lylat Cruise, and FoD has been removed, I personally never liked Lylat Cruise, and FoD, well I can understand why it's getting removed, despite being a staple in Melee.

I'm quite certain Norfair has been changed, and would prefer it over Skyworld, though personal bias is strong in this statement.

Distant Planet is a personal favourite of mine, but wouldn't be fair to replace Skyworld/Norfair with it. PS2, FD, and DL already being there makes it redundant.

If people are strongly against removing FoD, as well as not willing to sacrifice a similar stage, then adding Distant Planet and FoD to your proposed list should be considered, though we'd be at 12 stages once again.

I have no idea why P:M runs hella slow sometimes, but I'd rather no. of stages than no. of stocks be taken away. Even with the major nerf to recoveries, P:M did run overtime once again... I was waiting literally for an hour or more for my next match after I lost to Dekar.

PS2 isn't as neutral as everybody thinks, it has a low ceiling despite being by far being the widest stage, and the side blast lines are further away form the stage than PS1 is, though PS2 is still more neutral than FD.

Also good on ya for starting the topic Jamwa.

 

[Jamwa]

I could see distant planet legitimately replacing Skyworld/Norfair as it has similar blast zones.
Platform formation is what I am concerned with in that slot.
Norfair can be bad at times, but some people aren't accustomed to/don't like Skyworld.
Distant Planet seems safe as a choice from my perspective.

Perhaps trials of certain counterpicks/starters at our monthlies would help.

 

[J-Birds]

fod is soooooooooooooo different to battlefield

 

[S.D]

Green Hill Zone
Pokemon Stadium 2
Smashville

There is a big issue with having these three as starters in a five stage starter list.

It means you can/will be forced the play on a pseudo FD (stage without a top platform) in a matchup that warrants it.

GHZ doesn't belong as a starter.

 

[Redact]

My own idea is to swap YS with GHZ for a few reasons.

One being that the 3 tri platform stage means that you can't be forced into playing a dual platform or less stage in your first game. Battlefield being seen as the true neutral means that we should centralize our stage list around that and other similar neutrals with an even amount of variance offered to allow people to reach a more neutral stage for their own match up (ps2 or dl or whatever) but to also not allow people to force others into a non neutral style layout.

It's hard to know a large amount of matchups with such a big cast, but a smaller number of characters have healthy matchups on the non tri-platform stages in comparison to the amount of characters that have healthy matchups on tri platform stages.

having 3x tri platform (bf, ys, dl), 1 moving (smashville) and 1 dual platform (ps2) means that a larger number of characters will have a more neutral game 1 stage in comparison to the 2x tri platform ruleset. Whilst some match ups will prefer non tri platform stages as the most neutral stage, more characters lean towards the tri stage as more neutral.

This brings up YS vs FoD and that ones a simple answer, with ps2 being quite large on the sides at least, dl and smashville already there as well, there needs to be a stage that actually qualifies as small in quite a few ways which YS fills.

my own proposed stage list is:

Starters

Yoshi's Story
Pokemon Stadium 2
Smashville
Battlefield
Dream Land

Counter picks

Yoshi's Island
Wario Ware
Final Destination
Norfair
Green Hill Zone

this stagelist in a b05 as 2 bans means you can get rid of at least one extreme aspect you really don't want to play with (super big stage, super small stage ect) while also allowing you a decent counter in the first place (you get the choice of platform amounts still or stage size, but not both)

I'm not getting much time to write right now so ill just stop where i am for now and continue later based on whatever responses i get before late tonight

 

[S.D]

I haven't seen the new Norfair yet, so I can't comment on that, but I don't see the need to remove FoD, particularly in favour of something like Skyworld.

Otherwise I agree with Phil's neutral list.

 

[Redact]

I haven't seen the new Norfair yet, so I can't comment on that, but I don't see the need to remove FoD, particularly in favour of something like Skyworld.

Otherwise I agree with Phil's neutral list.

norfair provides a good bit of variety while not shafting any characters really, where FoD heavily shafts some characters (falcon snake dk bowser ect) so it really isn't that bad to remove FoD.

It may be staple in melee but FoD for some characters is crazy bad. FoD wouldn't add anything new to the pool except some extreme match ups that force players to ban it.

Also having FoD in means 4x 3 platform stage, which can mean you win a bo3 purely winning on 3 platform stages if we only have 2 bans

 

[Lex__]

Something people haven't discussed is that distant planet is now a smaller stage, it has been rebalanced.

Here's my opinion on the starters

I think 5 starters is fine... I feel most of the discourse at this point is wehre do GHZ, FD, DL64, and Yoshi's Story fit

Given: we keep PS2, Smashville, and Battlefield.

Lets analyze it: PS2 is a large stage. 2 platforms (unique). Short sides and short ceiling, but wide stage, therefore medium sides if played in the middle.

BF is a Small/Medium stage. Triangular platforms. Medium sides, Tall ceiling (except when killed from the top platform, which is rare).

Smashville is a medium stage. One moving platform (mostly platform light). Small sides, short ceiling.

Average stage size is good (Mediumish), average blastzones are good (medium-slightly shorter on the sides, shortish on the ceiling).

We need a small stage and a larger stage, arguably both should have average to a taller ceiling (since we have a short ceiling in PS2 and SV, a big ceiling on BF). One can have short sides as long as the other has bigger sides.

It apears to me that leaves GHZ (platform light) + DL64 aka big stage with platforms (to keep platform diversity balanced) OR FoD (high ceiling, platform heavy) + Final D (large stage + large side blastzones when hit from the middle, no platforms).

I think FoD + Final D brings the average blastzones down from the standard created by PS2 + Battlefield + SV. I vote for BF + SV + PS2 + GHZ + DL64 over BF + SV + PS2 + FD + FoD.

 

[1ampercent]

I'm not against the removal of FoD or anything, but...

FoD heavily shafts some characters (falcon snake dk bowser ect) so it really isn't that bad to remove FoD.

I'm seeing a lot more Falcons striking to FoD in Melee recently.
Professor Pro likes FoD, I've seen him CP people there.
DK and Bowser really? I thought they'd be good on that stage against certain matchups.

GHZ's platform is weird, I'm still a bit iffy on it being a starter stage, because SV is similar to it, but maybe I'm just bad.
YS has a low ceiling, PS2 and Smashville also have low ceilings.
Either way we're forced to play on low ceiling, or a non tri-platform stage, pick your poison. For me personally I'd rather try out GHZ, or even FoD as a starter atm with the current stagelist.

Something people haven't discussed is that distant planet is now a smaller stage, it has been rebalanced.

It's no different to 3.02 version irrc, but yes it's much more neutral than Lylat cruise, but because several stages are somewhat similar, it feels redundant to have with only 10 stages available now.

 

[Jamwa]

fod is soooooooooooooo different to battlefield

talking about number of platforms, but thanks for contributing, really

GHZ doesn't belong as a starter.

It does, it mostly depends on this:

more characters lean towards the tri stage as more neutral.

as being true or not. In melee, it sure was, but in p:m I personally feel it isn't, but I can't say for sure unless I did a matchup analysis of every character vs every character. When I say feel, it's mainly due to the ~10 characters I've picked up briefly and what I've gathered, but of course perhaps it's just my playstyle that affects my disposition (and how i play the characters). I will do a lengthy matchup analysis sometime and then come back to this discussion.

I haven't seen the new Norfair yet, so I can't comment on that, but I don't see the need to remove FoD, particularly in favour of something like Skyworld.

FoD doesn't really add much to the stagelist (in a good way). We already have Wario Ware and Yoshi's Story as small stage size and small blast zones and many platforms.
With FoD, it introduces a third stage that is similar but only different in that the platforms move (not including other things like Randall). Not to mention that with Dreamland that's 4 heavily platformed stages and this favours some characters too much in terms of counterpicking. You're opponent doesn't have 4 bans. Norfair also adds a larger stage that isn't Dreamland which balances out the stagelist from small stages like YS, WW and GHZ.

I agree with everything in Phil's stagelist, I just subscribe to Pokemon Stadium 2 more than Battlefield as being more neutral.
But it seems that currently it's opinion vs opinion so I'll just submit.

I WOULD however like to trial Skyworld, Norfair and Distant Planet. Distant Planet could be really gud.

 

[Redact]

We have an abundance of events in vic that can allow us to test rulesets (rmit, cw, whatever other random stuff) and these are the perfect forum to conduct these trials. I like the idea of a smaller distant planet if it doesn't provide more issues than norfair/skyworld.

there's also the fact I'd like to hear from heaps of people that haven't posted yet and probably won't as to what they think about each stage list.

 

[1ampercent]

I WOULD however like to trial Skyworld, Norfair and Distant Planet. Distant Planet could be really gud.

I'm okay with this.

 

[Splice]

I don't think FoD should be removed from Counterpicks.
Despite all having 3 platforms (tri-platform), there are some important differences between FoD, BF, Dreamland and Yoshi's.

Dreamland and FoD both have a high ceiling; Yoshi's has closer blast zones and lower ceiling.
Dreamland has a lot of space in the middle of stage while the other 3 are rather cramped with their 3 platforms.
The heights of the 2 lower platforms are different on all stages; DL's are especially high and FoD's are all over the place.
FoD offers different ways to apply and escape pressure as the platforms move and especially when they go low. In PM I believe this is great against all the spacies and Lucas, who have great shield pressure.
FoD is much higher than BF and Yoshi's from the bottom killzone, and doesn't have the Dreamland pineapple to get stuck under, which I also believe lets characters with great vertical recovery to extend deeper for kills than possible elsewhere.
I think FoD provides a niche in the stagelist that is banned or picked for reasons apart from the other tri-platform stages and so I don't think it should be removed based on this similarity.

Characters reliant on platform game can be disrupted on FoD, projectile game can be hindered or buffed on FoD dependant on character (Falco's lazers are worse, Game and Watch and Mewtwo and arguably Samus - i dont play her - cover a great space when the platforms are lowered) and it is like Dreamland in that the top platform can be hard to approach since it is not always close to the side platforms, I believe this matters for characters who don't want to FH/DJ and characters with multiple low jumps.

It means there are a lot of stages with tri platforms, but they appeal to different characters from there. The thing about the tri-platform setup is that it isn't the thing that changes MU's the most. I don't think many characters/players are going to just ban all the stages that have 3 platforms because that's the worst thing. They are going to ban based on blast zones, platform height (Warioware, Yoshi's, on the other end of the spectrum Dreamland, PS2 i believe), and whether the stage is pseudo-flat. My reasoning is that wanting a pseudo-flat stage doesn't warrant having less tri platform stages in the counterpicks. If FoD is in the counterpicks, it doesn't change what someone trying to ban pseudo-flats will ban. For someone who does want a stage with less platforms, I don't think banning tri-platform stages only are the best way to do this. There would be one stage of these 4 that the opponent isn't going to want to go to whether it's stage size or blastzones, and I think if you're going to ban YS, you're going to probably ban Warioware or something before banning Dreamland or FoD.

I don't think the tri-platform setup is the overwhelming force that defines the character MU's across the stages that have tri-platforms. I think this is part of the reason that this kind of setup is regarded as most neutral by people like Phil, because it doesn't appear to skew MU's as much as a high ceiling or a completely flat or small stage can. Because of the features like these ones which FoD possesses, I believe it should be kept for it's differences rather than removed for it's similarity of having the 3 platform setup.

 

[Redact]

What about 2/3 bans (3 bans bo3 2 bans bo5) 6 cps and simply add fod to my list as a cp? I think being able to force your opponent to need to be able to win on at least 1 non tri platform stage is pretty integral

 

[Jamwa]

FoD has very small blast zones compared to Norfair/Skyworld though, and doesn't provide nearly as much space as those stages do for characters.

The variable platform height also doesn't really affect Lucas due to DJC but for spacies what you've said holds true. I do think that spacies are very capable on FoD though, as they have incredibly strong neutral game and are fit to apply pressure when the platforms rise awkwardly whilst some characters are just inhibited sometimes.

I'm not arguing the merit of FoD, just that it doesn't fill the slot of being a big stage. There's no other big stages on this stage list other than Dream Land whilst there is Yoshi's Story and Wario Ware which are small in both main stage size and blast zones.

With FoD there, players will have to ban out YS/WW/FoD with 2 bans if their character is not good on cramped stages.

I think adding FoD to the list will be unpleasing aesthetically and also maybe confusing in terms of bans for sets. I don't think this stagelist needs FoD when it already has YS/WW/BF/DL, and I think it's even more so wrong to swap out Norfair/Skyworld for this stage.

 

[Splice]

Well like I said FoD has some unique features so while it might not fill the slot of "big stage" some characters may ban or pick it for reasons that not a lot of other stages offer. The other 3 tri-platform stages do not provide the same package of features that FoD does and it is very unfair to dismiss it because of their existence. Yoshi's Story is far less unique than FoD and can be substituted with other legal stages if you want 3 platforms/low ceiling/small stage/stationary platforms/high floor, but im not suggesting we remove Yoshi's Story.
I think with 3 bans it's going to eliminate this problem of adding FoD without being a negative to the stagelist in other areas.

If a player wants to counterpick to a flat-ish stage, 3 bans will force them to go to somewhere like PS2 since you can ban FD, Smashville and GHZ. To me this is an asset because those stages to me are FD, Sometimes FD, and Terrible Little FD respectively, so I think that this lets a character who really can't thrive on a mostly platformless stage avoid getting taken to these places, while the counterpicker still can get stages with a lot of platformless space available.

Others may disagree, but I am strongly in favor of 3 bans in a bo3 and keep FoD as a counterpick.
3 bans for the most part lets you avoid that "extreme aspect" entirely while with 2 bans you can't avoid some-things.
Don't like little stages? Ban Warioware GHZ and Yoshi's Story.
Don't like high ceilings? Ban Dreamland, FoD and Yoshi's Island.
Don't like tri-platform? If they won game 1 on a tri-platform they can't go there again, ban the other 3.

su goi

p.s FoD is probably most similar to Dreamland out of the rest of the stagelist + aesthetics isn't an issue since Dom is going to make a custom menu for us + other people can make an iso for whatever ruleset their state chooses to use

 

[Jamwa]

I'm not arguing the merit of FoD, I thought aiming for a smaller stagelist was the point of this anyway. Otherwise we might as well have the old stagelist.

 

[Splice]

I'm not arguing the merit of FoD, I thought aiming for a smaller stagelist was the point of this anyway. Otherwise we might as well have the old stagelist.

Ok, I guess I didn't fully realise this was a core goal of the discussion - to decrease the stagelist.
But regardless, my argument stands; I think FoD is a more important stage some of the other suggested 10.
For example, Yoshi's Story.

When it comes to counterpicks, FoD provides more than Yoshi's Story. Yoshi's Story can be replaced by at least 2 other stages in every way. Stage size, Ceiling or platforms, there are alternatives. FoD's qualities are way more scarce in the stagelist, having the biggest distance between the bottom killzone and the stage that I know of, as well moving platforms. It also provides another high ceiling and far away side blast zones, which there should be 3 of, and with FoD there would be - Dreamland, FoD and Yoshi's Island. (I know nothing about Norfair ceiling, apologies)

FoD may be less applicable in starters, but I believe it provides more options for the counterpicking player so that they can always get a stage with at least some of the features they want on it.

 

[Jamwa]

FoD's side blast zones are pretty small actually (compared to yoshis island)

Yoshi's island was actually changed from brawl. It has a lower ceiling and further side blast zones.

This is kind of why I like Skyworld - Far away blast zones and a high ceiling (higher than Norfair) and also a lot of room under the stage.

 

[Lex__]

I feel like skyworld is just dreamland 2.0, with a jankier ledge (weird cloud bottom and side ledge) and weird platforms which make it harder to wave land.

Is there a source on norfair 3.5 blast zones?

 

[Jamwa]

I believe only the platforms are changed so what you see in the 3.02 data would be largely representative of 3.5 Norfair.

 

[NeoTurtle]

how is dis phil are you happy

 

[1ampercent]

Tried out the new Norfair, platforms raise too high sometimes, so it isn't easily accessible to all characters.

Skyworld is changed to be a bit better, the main platform being thinner, but still dislike it because right cloud platform in a weird spot.

The above stagelist though I can agree with.

I could see distant planet legitimately replacing Skyworld/Norfair as it has similar blast zones.
Platform formation is what I am concerned with in that slot.

Exactly what I thought, but with 3 bans you could ban that, FD, and PS2 to avoid long stages.
Out of Norfair, Skyworld, and Distant Planet, I like Distant Planet the most, would love to see it legal again, rather than me wasting everyone's time attempting a gentleman's rule to that stage.

 

[Splice]

Hey this is a wall of text, basically I think 3 bans is pretty cool but we can't have it because 3 bans + 2 stages you already won in in a best of 5 causes problems. Then I talk a lot about how Norfair is really bad. That's pretty much it, but there are reasons here so that people who care can think about it some more. Unfortunately, because adding FoD would slighly bias floaties, I don't have an alternative except we round up and shank all the people who counterpicked Norfair after each tournament?

Speculation on 3 bans:
With those 10 stages, It's really unfortunate you can't have 3 bans.
I think 3 bans is better in a bo3 definitely but in bo5 you have this weird scenario where whoever is picking on game 5 can only pick out of 5 stages effectively meaning their picking out of their worse half of the stages.
It really sucks because 3 bans really lets you get rid of multiple stage elements that are a pain but DSR is rough, if you had 'bo3 3 bans' and 'bo5 2 bans' I think that'd be the best but ppl will get confused

Argument about Norfair's features being useless:
If you want the tl;dr of this, start reading from point 5).
Norfair is ****ing terrible unplayable garbage, what is that stage supposed to add to the stage list? It doesn't benefit anyone specifically. Ideally I would swap FoD with Norfair but then you have too many tri-platform stages and with only 2 bans you can't get rid of them all zzz. You can't swap Yoshi's Story with FoD coz FoD doesn't work as a started; FoD and DL in starters would be way too lopsided. Very unfortunate, FoD is so deep imo gg.................w3w

But yeah can we please not use Norfair/Why are we using Norfair? It's an abomination.
reasons;
1) The platforms are too high to rely on to retreat to sometimes and usually require a FH to pressure people that are on them. Because of this, once some-one is actually up there it's pretty daunting to pressure the guy who is up there because you have to extend so much. There is no other stage where this is necessary for the lowest platforms except arguably GHZ.

2) It plays like a pseudo-flat; because the platforms are so high most utilt and throw-combos work as well as they would on FD.

3) The platforms are SO HIGH that if someone has a good recovery (Mewtwo, Fox, Game and Watch, Ganon with float) they can mixup between grabbing the edge or going to the top platform when they UpB and if the opponent is trying to punish by staying grounded they usually aren't able to FH and punish in time. Only GHZ is sometimes like this but less reliably so and you'd have to aim the UpB, every other stage you can SH to punish when they land on a side platform afaik

4) The platforms aren't always high so depending on whether plays are made at the right time none of this matters and you can't rely on the flow of the game matching up with the platforms timer. It's effectively random, much like being saved by randall coz you were getting gimped. This is the least problematic point because FoD, GHZ and Smashville all have subtleties in a similar vein.

5) What purpose is it supposed to serve when it comes to actually Counterpicking it? Why would someone be picking this stage? Falco afaik still has the best FH but he'd get ***** here by anyone with a CG. But if Falco vs'd Falcon here he would destroy. Falcon wouldn't even be able to use the top platforms to get through lasers coz they're too high. This stage can't honestly be there just to benefit FH height? Just using the MU as an example btw coz it's an extreme and shows how a character can be good or bad here but not based on the usual "fast faller" "needs space" "floaty" "lightweight" "good platform game" but based on "he jumps pretty high" and whether or not you have good combos on flat stages (the last point is fine as long as you realise this benefits characters that prefer pseudo-flats which there are already 3 of)
Legit I'm thinking right now that the best reason to keep it in is that there is already enough stages for characters that prefer this and that, so just fill the 10th spot with something no-one will ever pick?????? genius tbh, if that's actually the reason I can back it

I'm keen for you guys to actually finalise what stages we're using for our upcoming tournies and majors but to my knowledge Phil and co. haven't played much on Norfair, so just in case I'm letting you know Norfair is pretty bad

 

[Redact]

After getting platform camped on norfair I vote skyworld over norfair

still going with 3 bans bo3 2 bans bo5

neutrals
ys
ps2
bf
dl 64
smashville

counter picks
fod
ghz
skyworld
wario ware
yoshis island
fd

 

[Splice]

^ I didn't realise you guys were willing to do 3 bans b03 and change it to 2 bans in a b05, and I didn't know if an odd number of stages was an option because it isn't "aesthetically pleasing" lol

Nice

That's the exact same list I wanted to propose, I support it 100%

 

[1ampercent]

After getting platform camped on norfair I vote skyworld over norfair

still going with 3 bans bo3 2 bans bo5

neutrals
ys
ps2
bf
dl 64
smashville

counter picks
fod
ghz
skyworld
wario ware
yoshis island
fd

3 bans Bo3 and 2 bans Bo5 for 10 or more stages, yes please.
Can we replace Skyworld with Distant Planet?

Or what about 2 bans with 9 stages only?
Starters
Yoshi's Story
Pokemon Stadium 2
Smashville
Battlefield
Dream Land

Counters
Yoshi's Island
Wario Ware
Final Destination
Green Hill Zone

With 2 bans, and less stages, surely this is will make tourneys run smoother right?

Nah I'm sure we'd still find a way to run overtime.

 

[Jamwa]

After getting platform camped on norfair I vote skyworld over norfair

still going with 3 bans bo3 2 bans bo5

neutrals
ys
ps2
bf
dl 64
smashville

counter picks
fod
ghz
skyworld
wario ware
yoshis island
fd

we're going for 5 cps btw.

What match up we're you platform camped in if you dont mind me asking? just curious as i might be able to apply the situation in my mind to other match ups to further understand the stage.

 

[NeoTurtle]

and jamwa im waiting for lunchables to update a bunch of custom stuff so i can edit the stage select screen for the ban instructions

 

[NeoTurtle]

ok is it done now jamwa

 

[2 +]

Is there a chance of using some of that remaining available space for instructions on how to stage strike? People never seem to know which buttons strike/undo-all for some reason.
Good work though.

 

[NeoTurtle]

well see
most of that space ends up being the stage preview and im not exactly a wizard with this ****
i also need to put on the urls for melbourne melee twitter and twitch fuc

 

[Jamwa]

@ NeoTurtle just posting every version for likes im onto you

 

[1ampercent]

We're using this at the next CW? If so then provide edited files for DL please.

 

[Meredy]

ok is it done now jamwa

I feel like that with this list. we have one too many 3 platform starters. I get that they differ in size but I think we need a little more variety for game 1. I suggest making FD a starter, switching with YS or DL. It feels weird with no FoD but oh well I can deal with that.