3.5 Pika Discussion Time!

[Cubelarooso]

pika's landing lag is doubled from landing a quick attack into the ground compared to 3.0. >.>

Hah, I always thought so, but couldn't test in 3.0 and didn't see mentioned in the changelog (besides the polish comment I guess).
I'm actually a fan of this. It matches Melee now, and it always seemed to me that failing a QAC input was needlessly unpunishing.



I didn't want to call anyone out, but since it's already out there:

Pikas QAC is a pretty stupid mechanic. It's a mechanic that lets pika approach with a large burst of movement that has a hitbox attached onto it while being able to cancel it at any point... that sounds as toxic as sonic.

I feel like this is exactly what happened in the DT…

make use of all his tools, as opposed to just one.

And this kinda confirmed it.

 

[Sapphire Dragon]

I summed up a lot of the best points below, in case someone tells you to just "get gud" in response to QAC. The QA lag and Skull bash, yeah we can just get good. The QAC needs to be nerfed much differently than it is now. [warning: stretches page lol]

Spoiler

It's effectively removed as a recovery tool and doesn't make sense to use it for chasing anymore (Which is sad! No more quick attack wake-ups ). It was never free as a recovery against anyone that actually plays the matchup though.. as you can actually cover the option without losing position.

I think the worst part is that pika no longer has.. his cool pm thing anymore. He's just normal... and worse off vs a cast that's super good...

Yeah, quick attack cancel is purely for flash now. It's removed from the game while pika has nothing amazing compared to the rest of the cast's general buffs in their neutral games. I've felt like he's practically designed to live longer due to nothing spectacular about his neutral, but now losing it means his recovery options are either get to the ledge or be punished really hard. I'm just disappointed that pikachu was nerfed when nothing showed that the option was overpowered with the words "better safe than sorry."

The move is nothing but commitment with fixed points of where you can land. The key is that it has to even touch the ground, so half of the movement is purely open to being punished >.>. Secondly by the nature of it, you have no double jump!!! Shielding pika's very laggy from the ground aerials and hitting him means he no longer even has a jump. It's not magical 360 movement anywhere you so desire.

[...] anyone else I play consistently has no problem stuffing it like any other normal approach option. It's just a different character matchup to learn.

I think the reasoning for it being removed was unfair, especially considering that you can only USEFULLY use it from a few positions. You can't be super high above the stage and use it to recover. You have to literally move through your opponent.

I'm actually even more outraged that someone used a pikachu ditto to declare it was broken. -.-;

[LARGE ANALYSIS POST WITH FRAMES- Read for full info]

@ Juushichi I feel that the decisions made for QAC were without a complete understanding their implications. The impression given is that they were made without first-hand insight into how Pikachu plays, why he is played, what QAC is/can do, how it fits into his game, and how it can be stopped. Rather, it seems as if QAC were only analyzed in the broadest terms, with reference to its intelligent use by top-level players against those unfamiliar with it, and to its abilities in an unrushed, unthreatened laboratory setting.
Consequently, the change made appears to be a good-faith attempt at compromise, yet which has inadvertently eliminated QAC's relevance - along with it a pivotal component of the character - rather than simply weakening it.


I've done some work to elucidate Quick Attack as a move. There may be some fencepost errors on the frame data, and I estimated the distances, but it should be fairly accurate.
(BTW, thank you sooo much to the DT for Debug Mode. This completely redefines the way I play.)

Zip 1:
Direction read on frame 12. This is when Pikachu must decide where to go, and if he shall sacrifice total distance for a potential 1st-zip QAC.
Hitbox active on frame 13.
Movement begins on frame 14.
Hitbox removed and movement stalls at frame 18. At this point, Pikachu has traveled a maximum of 6.5 of the Training Stage's units horizontally, assuming he QA'ed perfectly horizontal, which rules out QAC for this zip. The max that still allows QAC is 6 units, but Pikachu drifts 1 unit during the QAC window, so any actual QAC occurs between 5 and 6 units.
QAC window is frames 20-24. If Pikachu zipped into the ground, now is when he must decide if he shall cancel, with what, and execute it.
If Pikachu neither QAC's nor zips again, his first actionable frame is 56 if he zipped into the ground, or 61 if he zipped horizontally.
Zip 2:
Direction read on frame 26. This is when Pikachu must decide if he shall do the 2nd zip and where to go. If he does the 2nd zip, this is also when the hitbox activates. The 2nd zip must differ from the first by at least 38°.
Movement begins frame 27.
Hitbox removed and movement stalls frame 31. The max horizontal distance for this zip is 6 units, and between both zips is 10.5 units.
I believe the QAC window for the 2nd zip would be frames 33-36.
With no QAC, Pikachu's first actionable frame is 70, regardless of angle.

QA must travel into the ground during a zip's movement, and end over that ground, in order to be cancelled at the end of that zip.
QA can be cancelled into any aerial option. This comprises double jump, airdodge (hence waveland), nearly-grounded specials or aerials (Fair has no hitbox but autocancels, Dair goes straight to landing hitbox), and of course double-jump.
But remember, these are Pikachu's options, not some Ike careening toward you with a screen-wide Fair of certain death, but a disjointless lightweight renowned for low damage output and expected to be bouncing every which way regardless.
Double jumping out of QA provides Pikachu with a peak height at frame 25 of 3.5 units, with a maximum of 2.5 units horizontally. From here, Pikachu can land on frame 55 for 4.5 units distance, or fastfall to land frame 43 with 3.5 units.

Don't let the word "hitbox" fool you, this isn't Sonic we're talking about.
[collapse=Observe, its disjoint]

[/collapse]
The 1st zip deal 3%, has 4 frames of hitlag (which stops Pikachu as well, giving the opponent more time to react), 7 frames shieldstun, negligible knockback at any percent, and 3, 13, and 21 frames hitstun against a 0% Bowser, 100% Marth, and 200% Jigglypuff, respectively.
The 2nd zip deal 2%, has 3 frames of hitlag, 6 frames shieldstun, negligible knockback at any percent, and 1, 10, and 18 frames hitstun.
Honestly, the hit more often seems troublesome then helpful when QAC'ing, as it frees the opponent from any lag they may be experiencing.

QA gives no invincibility.

For comparison, it takes Captain Falcon 45 frames to run 10.5 units. The first 15 frames (over 3 units) are his initial dash and can be cancelled into a dash the other way or turned into a moonwalk, and after that he can cancel with crouch (into any action out of idle, including dash dance forward then back again) or RAR. At any point throughout he can short hop (or full hop if the opponent jumps) into a Knee, Stomp, his long-range Nair or Uair, crossup Bair, or keep it empty and quickly land, or retreat with his double jump, or edge cancel a Falcon Kick if available. Or he can Raptor Boost, wavedash, use a real dash attack, DACUS, or shield which can go into roll forward, roll backwards, sidestep, or grab. Note that Pikachu is one of the few characters with a grab comparable to Falcon's.
[collapse=We're Back!]

[/collapse]
At any point, as soon as he wants. Most characters can, actually.
Pikachu can run 10.5 units in 53 frames, with a 13 frame, 2.5 unit initial dash.


There are some places QAC could be trimmed. Tighten the input window, make failing a QAC be as laggy as QA horizontal, or especially making it so that Pikachu loses his double jump if hit out of QA at any point before officially touching the ground. Those make sense to me.
I think that just making it so that QAC was lost by going into tumble would have been the perfect change, especially if Pikachu had to actually land to get it back, so he couldn't just sweetspot the ledge then QAC onstage. Straight-up once per airtime, or adding a cool down, would be too restrictive, precluding consecutive QAC's, which I've seen Anther use for shield pressure, and which I personally just loved doing between stocks.
But for an even more conservative version that lets QAC remain pertinent and preserves everything that's great about it, while cutting out anything that could be regarded as not-so-great, consider if also QAC only allowed double jump. In this scenario, the strongest options of low aerial/special would be impossible, while the now-strongest option of wavelanding would be more technically demanding, with a greater opportunity for a wider range of errors, and anything but perfection would be slower, allowing a greater opportunity for the opponent to punish in a way which eliminates Pikachu's double jump and QAC.


Zipping about the stage has become a staple of PM Pikachu. How would Luigis react if he couldn't slide about the stage? Or Jiggses if she couldn't drift about the stage? It would continue to not be a problem if it were even more dangerous.
Pikachu needs ways to close space. His range is his body, if he can't get in then he can't do anything. And as I hope I have illustrated, QAC is really not too foreign of a space-closer.
If we're talking about when Pikachu's on defense, QAC was too good, hence my obsession with the tumble thing. But if we're talking about in neutral, I can't say agree. QAC could really only provide a good position if the opponent let it. Pikachu is completely vulnerable throughout QA, it can be stopped by the same things as everything else Pikachu has (a wide sweeping hitbox, or a jab), and usage requires telegraphing your intentions by moving into a position where it's possible. Not only that, but QAC was a risk/reward thing (that could simply have more risk, if the reward is still deemed to great, by way of guaranteed loss of DJ and QAC), where your options were either try to charge right through your opponent, or pass through an even more compromising position, and setting up for these were usually mutually exclusive actions. (Not to mention the risk of failing the execution) The only excuses for letting Pika by were being outplayed, or not knowing the matchup (which should not take more than a few matches for good players. And learning new matchups is one of PM's most evident, enjoyable draws - I know I felt fantastic when I started knowing when G&W had no jump).


From my point of view, despite the DT's intentions, the current version sacrifices depth and entertainment (for all parties, honestly) in order to make Pikachu a neverused lower-mid tier rather than underused upper-mid tier. I don't think that's worth it, especially when there are great other options .

If they were concerned about recovery they should have made it so he can't QAC at all unless he has his double jump, which would effect his recovery

I've been seeing what you can actually accomplish only QAC'ing off the first jump and honestly it's kinda sad. The thing is that when you could QAC by angling the second jump into the ground you were able to use the first one to travel further by aiming it fully horizontal. Now you only have one jump AND because you need to hit the ground to QAC, it has to be a diagonal/straight down zip which can't travel the same distance as a fully horizontal quick attack. In other words, QAC's effective range is not actually half of what it was, but even less than that.

@Mr.Pickle: QAC was never something that won matches for you. Quick Attack loses in priority to basically any hitbox, which meant QAC was only useful as an approach when you made a good read on your opponent or as an occasional mix-up. Anyone blindly spamming QAC would get punished for it hard. On top of that it took good precision and quite a lot of practice to be able to use it well. The nerf hardly promotes creativity either, because what you can do with QAC that's actually worth doing is extremely limited now.

QAC was basically Pikachu's Shine in the time investment it took to master[...]

TKBreezy mentioned the QAC nerf on stream at Xanadu yesterday, and basically everyone in the chat was just like "Why would they nerf that?". Same goes for what I've seen on other social media. Even non-Pika mains are kind of confused as to why it got butchered.

What's even more depressing is that I've seen several people say they just don't see the point in playing Pikachu anymore, and he was already struggling with representation as it was. QAC was a good pull for people to play a character that has IMO a low effort/reward ratio as it was so fun. Not to say Pikachu doesn't have the potential, but it takes time to bring it out and start winning with him. Without QAC there's a lot less reason for people to bother looking into playing Pikachu.

Removing Pika's QAC is like removing Ike's Quickdraw. Its not a broken tactic, but it is a major part of why a player would look at Pikachu and go "this character looks fun!" People need to learn how to deal with QAC (which is VERY easy) rather then complain that its broken and remove it.

Juushichi is from my knowledge at least partly in charge of Pikachu. [...] he said QAC would likely receive some sort of nerf. iirc he said it would likely be that using QAC would disable using a second QAC until you touch the ground again. I felt like this was a fair nerf, but this new system seems somewhat unfair.

by taking away the ability to QAC the second burst a part of pika's neutral game has taken a hit which I don't think was broken. QA is very easily punished when predicted in neutral. Should have made it so that you can't QAC at all after using a double jump.

using QA in neutral was never that great of an idea to begin with since it's vulnerable to stronger hitboxes, and SHFFL aerials/tilts/general movement is still good enough for good evasion (unless they nerf those too).

But in that vein, this is only making Pikachu even harder to play effectively. It's basically pigeon holing Pikachu as an expert level character [...] if there aren't more rewards for the prerequisite skill needed for Pika play... well I don't know what will happen but I'm probably paranoid won't get enough love by the design team or the community in the end.

It basically renders all the best uses either impossible, or near useless.

I think the best change would have been if QAC became impossible by being knocked into tumble. Then it retains all its important, fun, fair uses in neutral and punishes, but not as an escape when 'Chu is on defense.

I wanted nerfs, but aimed at the jank, not the characters.

The way QAC was "not" removed is still terrible and indicative of thoughtlessness.

Obviously, QAC was not OP, especially considering the moveset that was attached to it. Those who have actually used it know it was far too unsafe to be centralizing; indeed, it actually opened up whole new levels of strategy and tech that complemented, not competed with, the old, and made the game that much more enjoyable to play and amazing to watch.
But I don't think that's what they're going for; I think they want to make strategies a lot more contained, presumably to appeal to Melee purists who are scared of new matchups.

Removing PM Pikachu's QAC feels like removing a Spacies Shine; or if that thought makes you happy inside, removing Peach's Float or Luigi's WD. It was something that made truly Pikachu stand out, so people could pick him up and try it and think, "Wow, I like this character!" Without that incentive, they'd just move on to Sheik and think, "Wow, I can win with this character!"

And it makes me really salty to see QD still out there, and once-per-airtime moves, and the deserved love Ganondorf received, and even the overly-good flaws retained in Luigi's moveset.

I knew it was too good at circumventing disadvantage, and that QA -> fall through platform shouldn't have been a thing…
But he just seems so boring, now. Most of the cast seems to have lost a lot of personality, which I can't say I like right now.

Maybe it's supposed to turn the game more to so-called fundamentals, favoring designs like Marth/Sheik/Falcon over Fox/Falco/Peach/Jiggs/ICs/Luigi/Yoshi, but I'm not sure that's the best idea in a game with so many characters. The former set's moves/stats just make them so overwhelmingly good at it I'm not sure other characters can keep up without becoming samey. It's honestly more like those "fundamentals" are just their "gimmicks."

I think spammable, centralizing moves were the problem in 3.02, not unique character traits. I found figuring out the new matchups to be the draw of PM, and I don't think PM can ever compete with the depth of Melee's micro-interactions, which stems from the thoroughness with which its six characters have been explored. Nor should it; Melee already fills the the role of Melee perfectly, just as Marth fills the role of Marth.
Overall, I'm just initially disappointed in the path PM has taken. Maybe things will turn out different over time; the DT does have a lot of experience (not with Pikachu) at this point. I just don't think this genre will ever get anywhere until it can be more than Melee.

I'd much rather see QAC limited in use, not completely changed. It takes out one of the funnest aspects of Pikachu [...] QAC could be limited based on double jump, as others said, or require a cooldown time, or some other usage restriction. But as it is now, I feel soured, like Pika has taken a huge step back instead of forward. "Useless" keeps coming to mind when I think about this QAC, because its applications have become so limited that it is almost better to just do something else unless you're in a very situational event. Even then the amount of practice and skill needed to use it in those times makes it feel like it's just not worth doing. It might be justified if his aerials all got buffs, but they didn't. There is literally no reward for learning this tech in such a tight window besides eye candy and one aerial your opponent might not expect.

If they wanted to nerf his recovery they could have just done what they did with Mewtwo and make it so you can't qac out of a second jump.

This was the "cool" point about Pika for me. Quick attack into up air from across the stage- wasnt broken, wasn't unblockable, wasn't the perfect approach, but it was cool and flashy and sometimes rewarding. I'm quite sad that isn't an option anymore.

I'm actually struggling to find a new character now. I feel like I HAVE to.

I don't play pikachu, but I do play against anther a lot. I truly think pikachu is in a terrible spot now. The nerf not only hurts pikachu immensely, but it also makes playing against pikachu a lot less interesting.

 

[Flawed]

I couldn't help it guys, I went back to Pikachu, his new hat tempted me so much. Then I found out another nerf I didn't read/pay attention to...

What the hell is the use of skull bash? Just for a faster way to drift to the stage?

Why is it so much harder to sweet spot ledges with QA? I used to be able to zip zip - ledge - nair. Now I miss.. alot.

The hunt for a main is not going well at all... no one really has all of their "cool stuff " intact.

 

[Sapphire Dragon]

What the hell is the use of skull bash? Just for a faster way to drift to the stage?

Why is it so much harder to sweet spot ledges with QA? I used to be able to zip zip - ledge - nair. Now I miss.. alot.

The hunt for a main is not going well at all... no one really has all of their "cool stuff " intact.

Basically yeah for Skull Bash. It never snapped to the ledge in Melee and though I thought that was a really useful addition, they're moving on to a more Melee standard it seems.

Ledges are hard to sweet spot in Melee, so they probably brought that back too. It'll take a lot of practice to get used to but it's doable with stricter tech. Give it a few days/weeks practice and it'll be better.

Actually Ganon has all his cool stuff and more now Bowser too. Everyone else is lol, besides the top Melee tiers. So much was changed that practically no one with a unique playstyle can play that way anymore, it seems.

 

[Choice Scarf]

If you get sent flying far, skull bash, but only if you're far enough from the stage to not get hit during the lag. Any other time you're either in range for QA or are dead anyway, and it only works for when you're high up (optimal DI) because of the endlag. It literally has only one good use now. Sigh...

Okay, new plan, everyone start losing on purpose and then we use the negative attention to get some buffs a la Ganon /s

But really we can be as vocal as we want, yet no one will be as fervent us now since everyone is crying wolf nerf right now. And to be fair it is literally a day after the release. But we'll need to prove our suspicions to get the rest of the community on our side. Push Pika's technical limit to the max - and then show that not everyone can be Axe. The rest of Pika's game is relatively good but only because it's quick - what has been holding him back since Melee was his lack of range and disjoint, which QAC helped compensate for. Play as much as possible to show the rest of the community how much less creative and more vulnerable Pika is now so that everyone can understand our point. Oh! And you might as well spam dash attack and skull bash to show how bad those moves are while we're at it. Maybe they'll actually make those usable!

So let's get adapting for now. Personally I can deal with the polish thing since it seems like a fair trade if you miss the QAC (especially when recovering), and I was finally able to do all of the QAC types again (I thought they said aerials were removed but guess not!). I think it was supposed to be "animation polish", since now the QAC timing is exactly when Pika makes contact with the ground instead of just a bit after, which I guess makes sense. I'm still going to miss QAC pratfall though.

Also, has it always been a thing where tilting vs smashing the control stick with upB actually gives you different lengths? (i.e. tilt upB doesn't reach top platform of Battlefield from the ground but smash upB does)

 

[Cubelarooso]

Do you have tap jump on?

 

[Choice Scarf]

Nope

10 nopes

 

[Anther]

Also... why can't he side b to the ledge anymore?! The only purpose of the move is for recovery. Poor pika.

 

[PandaPanda Senketsu]

I think the problem is that there are no Pikachu mains in the Pmdt, im pretty sure the guy in charge of Pikachu is a GnW player. It felt like they didnt really know what they were doing when they made the changes.

Can we get a Pmdt member in here to enlighten us?

 

[Sapphire Dragon]

Also... why can't he side b to the ledge anymore?! The only purpose of the move is for recovery. Poor pika.

I feel the same way. But skull bash never snapped to the ledge in Melee. I think that's what they're trying to make this game the most like now, instead of merging the best of Melee and Brawl. I miss the fun in between it once was.

Needless to say I'm keeping 3.02 Pika in my custom PM build, Project M Ultimate. It keeps the best versions of all characters (like 2.1 Ike and 2.5 Sonic) in one game. I will update it with 3.5's overall system and 3.5 Ganon but the rest of the characters that got nerfs will stay the same. Might include Bowser too but I'm going to wait a while to see who rises to the top or who gets nerfed in a following patch.

 

[LunarWingCloud]

Why take out the ledge sweetspotting from Skull Bash? That's unnecessary, considering Pika is supposed to have ridiculous recovery compensated by an insane ease of being flat-out KO'd. He wasn't even great to begin with in 3.0 and he seems more nerfed than half the characters above him in the tiers.

I feel like he's being forced to be more linear, and that's not how he should play. Because of how easy he is to combo and wreck, I don't quite understand why some of his options are being stripped off. He needs that unpredictability to be any good.

TL;DR I understand that the game is being made to be as similarly to Melee as possible, but aside from Axe's superhuman Pika play in Melee, Pikachu isn't very good to begin with. Stop making him worse, please.

 

[TheGravyTrain]

Basically, they thought that QAC is too good at burst speed, recovery, and circumventing positional advantage. That is the explanation we would get if a PMDT member comes in. Its really frustrating when you look at some of the changes for some characters (fox, falco, marth...). What I am getting from this change and some other characters changes/peoples reaction (specifically Meta Knight and Zero Suit) is they are making a lot of characters good via traditional means (dash dance, combo game, gimp game, etc) rather than unique movesets (Meta Knight Dimensional Cape, Dair). I think it will overall make characters like Pikachu really boring in comparison to what they were (with this logic, lets make Luigi have a better dash dance/run speed and take away his wavedash, its too abnormal of movement). It may make it easier to balance, but overall, Pikachu looks like he is going to be really boring to play since QAC is practically useless. What makes it worse is how uneducated people are about it (I am looking at you Lunchables...). It makes me think that that is what it is like in the PMDT. Overall a frustrating change...

 

[sheNanagans]

Juushichi is from my knowledge at least partly in charge of Pikachu. I havent spoken with him an a while but when I did he said QAC would likely receive some sort of nerf. iirc he said it would likely be that using QAC would disable using a second QAC until you touch the ground again. I felt like this was a fair nerf, but this new system seems somewhat unfair. Removing Pika's QAC is like removing Ike's Quickdraw. Its not a broken tactic, but it is a major part of why a player would look at Pikachu and go "this character looks fun!"

People need to learn how to deal with QAC (which is VERY easy) rather then complain that its broken and remove it.

 

[Choice Scarf]

I thought we were past the stage of being like melee and trying to be something beyond both melee and brawl.

I can still snap to the ledge with skull bash when on stage if you space it just perfectly, so I think you can you skull bash and then grab the edge just when the move ends, but judging your spacing when offstage is a lot harder to do. But since skull bash could be easily edgeguarded in the first place, and the grab mid-animation is what made it worth it. So again, while most things are still possible, they just require too much effort, which is not what Pikachu needs if he wants more people to play him.

The changelog shows the least changed characters other than Pika are Jiggs, Peach, Marth, Sheik, and maybe Roy. AKA melee type characters and characters that were already "well designed" in 3.02. In terms of similar nerfs, Squirtle got a complete overhaul but a LOT about him changed when buffing the rest of him in compensating of losing the "chessiness" of withdraw, which people were saying it was for the better of the character.

So then we're concluding this level of insight was not given to Pikachu?

 

[Anther]

Juushichi is from my knowledge at least partly in charge of Pikachu. I havent spoken with him an a while but when I did he said QAC would likely receive some sort of nerf. iirc he said it would likely be that using QAC would disable using a second QAC until you touch the ground again. I felt like this was a fair nerf, but this new system seems somewhat unfair. Removing Pika's QAC is like removing Ike's Quickdraw. Its not a broken tactic, but it is a major part of why a player would look at Pikachu and go "this character looks fun!"

People need to learn how to deal with QAC (which is VERY easy) rather then complain that its broken and remove it.

I agree. Pika's hard to deal with if you've never fought him before, but the same can be said for any of the more interesting characters in the cast.
Even if a second quick attack was prevented, that would just mean that quick attack's flashiness has been removed, as multiple QAC's back to back has never made me think "Whoa, one was fine but when I do it this second time, BROKEN!" , .. and at that point it's not even nerfing it as a recovery... It's just nerfing quick attack for the sake of something getting nerfed.

Well.. I guess it's cool to see that the majority of you feel the same. .

 

[sheNanagans]

Was messing around more with the new QAC and Ledge Cancelled QAC seems to be a decent way to move around the stage(s) though its really hard...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QdHx7pv3H0o

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B9lZ-NifGgM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xeq629jhWCE

Some VOD's I took while messing around

 

[Jampion]

Shenanagans those videos are awesome , bringing back my pikachu movement hype! Haven't really posted on here but im on Anther's ladder a lot.
Also- Another ohio pikachu whaaaaat

 

[Deleted member]

I think someone on the dev team read this post from Lunchables and did exactly that

Actually, the only reason I said that was because I already knew they wanted to nerf it. I said it because they were gonna nerf it, not they nerfed it because I said it

 

[Anther]

Actually, the only reason I said that was because I already knew they wanted to nerf it. I said it because they were gonna nerf it, not they nerfed it because I said it

Well that's just cheating knowledge.

 

[Deleted member]

It's been something that has been wanted for a while, but technical limitations are holding it back.

Same with light shielding and melee tethers lmao

 

[Kerenthar]

The only explanation for this, I suppose, is that DT have intentions to nerf all recoveries in the game in order to create a most stable environment for top tiers and not thinking in characters individual strengths. That is the why almost all characters with good recoveries are now... less competitive (in a mod wich says boost the competitive game, lol)

 

[Choice Scarf]

Sethlon's response:

Pikachu's recovery is already quite good in Melee, which is closer to what we're trying to shoot for as far as overall recovering than what characters were capable of in 3.02. Being able to QAC onto the stage while recovering made his recovery even more difficult to edgeguard, which we felt was too much on top of his already versatile upB. (Same goes for sideB grabbing the ledge.)

If you're asking why nothing else with the character is changed, we're fairly comfortable with the spot Pikachu is at overall. He already has some other improvements over his Melee version (namely 64 bair and more range/disjoint on fair), and Pikachu is even doing fairly well in Melee via Axe's performances. With the many nerfs to other characters, Pikachu should be in a fairly good place as far as balance goes.

So basically all they were thinking about is the recovery. Great...

 

[TheGravyTrain]

I still feel that aside from above stage recoveries (where he almost NEVER got gimped or comboed from), QAC really never affected his recovery game against someone who knew how to ledgehop nair. The more I think about it though, the more it was just my initial reaction to the change. Overall, nobody really got buffs. The only thing I have left that I still can't get over is melee top tiers going almost unscathed. Not even fox, too many characters (in 3.02, with excessive neutral games) struggled with Martha disjoint. You are telling me that, with nerfs to neutral games they are going to deal with it?

 

[Kerenthar]

How much difficult to edgeguard is this?

and how they could be comfortable with his dash attack just because Axe is a killing machine Pikachu? (he don't use that move no matter what)

 

[Choice Scarf]

He doesn't use dash attack because it sucks. No one can use even as a suboptimal option because it's very laggy and gets punished easily. Same with skull bash.

 

[Flawed]

I found a new main. Roy. Not as fun, but hey, its stopped me from dropping PM.

In the world of Pikachu's , I have now found that the character makes me generally upset, which has never happened to me before. I got seriously mad in friendlies when I skullbashed the edge and kinda lofted through. Actually rage quit.

I lost my 3.02 files, and I want to have fun again. Someone help!

Also, I'm pretty sure the Edge canceled QA was in 3.02, just wasn't needed to achieve that depth of movement with QAC.

Pikachu's recovery is already quite good in Melee, which is closer to what we're trying to shoot for as far as overall recovering than what characters were capable of in 3.02. Being able to QAC onto the stage while recovering made his recovery even more difficult to edgeguard, which we felt was too much on top of his already versatile upB. (Same goes for sideB grabbing the ledge.)

If you're asking why nothing else with the character is changed, we're fairly comfortable with the spot Pikachu is at overall. He already has some other improvements over his Melee version (namely 64 bair and more range/disjoint on fair), and Pikachu is even doing fairly well in Melee via Axe's performances. With the many nerfs to other characters, Pikachu should be in a fairly good place as far as balance goes.

Side B was hard to edgeguard? The amount of times I was spiked by marth before I realized it wasnt a free ledge in 3.0....

I got a few stage spikes in 3.02 with SkullBash, thought that was an excellent use.

Rename this build

Project M: Anti-Free Build
Project M: Basic Build
Project M: Attack of the PMDT

 

[Sapphire Dragon]

I lost my 3.02 files, and I want to have fun again. Someone help!

Rename this build

Project M: Anti-Free Build
Project M: Basic Build
Project M: Attack of the PMDT

Check my archive here :3 http://sapphiredragon.co.nr/SapphireDragon/projectm-mirror

In fact, this build's official name is Project M: Ganondorf edition, or Project Ganon if you prefer. It even has cover art!

Spoiler

 

[Choice Scarf]

I found a new main. Roy. Not as fun, but hey, its stopped me from dropping PM.

Roy's a lot of fun, what are you talking about?

But if you can keep Pika in your pocket, or at least be vocal about his nerfs, at least all of us here will appreciate it. We'll be needing the representation one way or another!

Check my archive here :3 http://sapphiredragon.co.nr/SapphireDragon/projectm-mirror

Wow, you have the whole shebang, that must have taken a long time or you've just been on the scene for a great while. Either way お疲れ様でした.

So, uh, anyway, how shall we adapt? Edge canceling will have to be the way to go, so any tips on how to do them consistently would help (like, where do I aim for and at what angle?) Also, is it easier to use the tilted QA's vs the smash QA's or is that just dependent on your position?

 

[Cubelarooso]

SB sweetspot was unnecessary. It didn't add anything Pika couldn't already do, it just made it easymode, which is bad.
QAC WAS too good for recovery. Sure, he could get wrecked if the opponent read it, but if not then it was as if Pikachu had never been offstage at all.
The same goes for QAC out of punishes. The opponent gets you in a juggle, but Chu had the option to just say "No, I liked neutral more."
These were flaws in the design. I became reliant on them, and stagnated as a player because of it.

But QAC otherwise was not a problem. Pikachu just can't play the same game as Marth or Sheik without having their ridiculous range or priority. QAC was his answer to that, it gave him a versatile yet difficult (although admittedly, perhaps not enough) and unsafe option which, if used properly, could be turned into a facade of Marth's area-control or Sheik's auto-combos.
You still needed proper spacing and attention to use it properly. It may have been different from dash dancing, more powerful in some sense, but it was kept in check by the fact that, whatever Pikachu did out of it, it was still one of Pikachu's moves. And in the end, it fell against the same thinking, if not the same actions.
QAC couldn't be used for recovery or escapes if he just lost it from going into tumble, but it could be used for everything else. Trimming the fat without sawing right through the bone, so to speak. The more I think about it, the more I think that's the perfect change. Like, I've specified tumble because, even if this were implemented, Pikachu could still trade with weak stuff like Fox's charge-flames or PK Thunders, then still QAC back without fear of reprisal, and certain characters would have to rely on more than just stuff like Needles/Lasers/Arrows to do their edgeguarding for them (assuming he wasn't offstage due to a strong hit, of course).

 

[Juushichi]

tbf whatever someone said about toning down burst movement and ect was more or less what we wanted to shoot for. it's why things like why MK no longer has his 3.02 dair or goes into special fall out of down b, part of the reason why just about all stats on GnW DACUS/Up Smash got nerfed, why Wolf has more endlag on Dash attack, Ike got the nerfs he did to QD (not enough imo), why Mewtwo is the way he is, why Sonic is the way he is and more.

I understand that people are disappointed and are asking "why when this isn't even ___?", but changes generally happen holistically. There was certainly a fear that Pika's ability to zip around the stage, circumvent positional advantage, close space and more would be too strong of an option for this version with everything done to other characters. As a dev we have to think about these things when abused to their potential. Anther certainly brough the most nuanced and maybe practical application of the technique in the earlier version, but the amount of flexibility that it brought was too much in our opinion.

I know Pika players are tired of hearing the whole song and dance about how strong his gimp options and more are, but that is a strength of the character. Some or most of his worst matchups have been nerfed in a significant way (Mario not being able to 0TD Pika with d-throw is certainly one + fireball changes), recoveries accross the board have been nerfed. These are some of the things that go into the conversation.

I think it's unfortunate that players feel like they lost a lot of flavor and individuality in Pikachu and are dropping him. I feel like in reference to the cast, this is the strongest version of the character that there has been to date for Pika.

 

[Sapphire Dragon]

tbf whatever someone said about toning down burst movement and ect was more or less what we wanted to shoot for.

That can still be done; QAC can have limitations placed on it such as a cooldown time, no QAC out of tumble or double jump, etc.

Pika's ability to zip around the stage, circumvent positional advantage, close space and more would be too strong of an option for this version with everything done to other characters.

He would only occasionally be able to do this if restrictions were placed on QAC, so he would mainly still have to rely on his other options he has now. He is very easy to combo and KO, so he needs that movement to be able to be at his best.

but the amount of flexibility that it brought was too much in our opinion.

Pikachu's game really hinges on his flexibility, from my experience at least. Not spam, but options.

Really though, what was the process of thought when deciding to take out QAC (its main uses are arguably gone) other than the nerfs to everyone else? I understand and agree it needs to be nerfed, I'm not concerned about that. But has a cooldown or other type of restriction been discussed before? If so, why was the suggestion dropped? Just curious to understand how much thought was put in other than "everyone else got hit too".

 

[Choice Scarf]

I think the polish animation fix is good enough of a nerf on QAC at least on mid tier play. If you miss your QAC you should be punished. So the endlag works here.

The lack of QAC really just makes Pika less interesting to play. Melee Pika may be good, but if you have to be as technical as Axe to pull it off, well, some people may never be able to reach that point of technical proficiency to pull that of. And like you said before:

I think it's unfortunate that players feel like they lost a lot of flavor and individuality in Pikachu and are dropping him. I feel like in reference to the cast, this is the strongest version of the character that there has been to date for Pika.

This is what I'm worried about most. Pika's flavor was needed less for the game and more for drawing people in, considering his lack of popularity in previous versions. I want to say it's because he needs some much technical skill that most people would just rather spend their efforts on more rewarding characters. Why not just spend your time learning to master more broken tactics like Fox's stuff if you have time to learn Pika? The fact that even dedicated players are apparently dropping Pika is the complete opposite of what he needs right now and just feels like a bad omen. Unless he gets changes at the hype levels of what Ganon just got, I'm not sure how Pika will rise to the attention of the community as a whole. So my question you is, what will the PMDT do to give Pikachu more reward?

Also, some secondary questions that people may have forgotten because of QAC:

• Can you explain the significance of adding electric effects to all throws? Is this a hitstun thing? Aesthetic
  
• Was the release point of u-throw fixed?
• With skull bash reverted back to Melee uselessness, will it get any changes so that it's more than just a glorified, unsafe booster rocket? Perhaps some form of damage or knockback buff?
• Will dash attack ever get changed to something useful at all?
• Not that it's bad, but why change the party/wizard hat from blue to purple? Because PM
  
• Were other moves besides QA ever tweaked in the development cycle? Anything on aerials/tilts/smashes?
  
• Finally does the PMDT consider Pikachu an expert level character and cater to that notion, or are there any plans to try to make him more accessible to other skill players?

Thank you for answering. I'll probably ask this all again in 6 months too.

 

[Scatz]

When you really put it into perspective, having QAC on the first part of UpB still allows initial burst movement, but makes the move committal with slightly favorable options to get out of sticky situations. Being able to place Pika in more do-able situations quicker is something tons of characters wish they could have. His QAC sort of opens up the ability to indirectly punish slightly overcommitting characters, but also makes his pressure game stronger since it's still easy to get behind a character sitting in their shield (then waveland away makes it harder to punish pika).

We really lost the ability to run away from being combo'd or follow up from across the stage.


I would like to see some use in his skull bash though. If the PMDT can get combo finishers off that move, it'll definitely add flash to his game.

 

[Sapphire Dragon]

Not that it's bad, but why change the party/wizard hat from blue to purple?

Purple is the PM theme, and imo it helps people distinguish between say their Melee Pika playstyle and their PM Pika playstyle.

I do think there should be both a blue and purple wizard hat, though.

 

[Choice Scarf]

Oh right, I forgot purple is one of the main colors.

It's an odd shade of purple, but I'm sure it will grow on me.

 

[Defile]

tbf whatever someone said about toning down burst movement and ect was more or less what we wanted to shoot for. it's why things like why MK no longer has his 3.02 dair or goes into special fall out of down b, part of the reason why just about all stats on GnW DACUS/Up Smash got nerfed, why Wolf has more endlag on Dash attack, Ike got the nerfs he did to QD (not enough imo), why Mewtwo is the way he is, why Sonic is the way he is and more.

Juushichi, with all due respect, I think there is a big difference between adding a bit of lag at the end of Wolf's dash attack or replacing Meta Knight's highly situational 3.0 down air with what the PMDT did to Pikachu in 3.5. Being able to cancel the second burst of QA was what gave Pikachu his niche in the metagame, and you guys have pretty much taken that away. As I hope you are aware, no Pikachu player ever cancelled the first burst of QA because it's such a predictable, punishable option. You heavily nerfed a character that was probably only mid or upper-mid tier and offered no compensation other than fixing Pikachu's up-throw chain grab on space animals, which only works effectively on one or two stages anyway. You guys could have at least fixed Pikachu's borderline useless dash attack. I don't mean to whine, and I realize that you're probably dealing with plenty of other nerfed character's annoyed players, but the PMDT has made a serious mistake with their decisions regarding Pikachu for 3.5.

 

[Kaysick]

So who else likes Pika's new costume? I still think Goggles are the best, but I can't get over Pika being 2kawaii4me.

 

[sheNanagans]

I'm loving the new Alt as well!

I somewhat agree with juushichi that Pikachu will likely remain a strong member of the cast (I can see Pika as a strong Mid Tier character) but I am really going to miss QAC, which is the main reason that myself and many others began using the yellow rat in the 1st place.

Anyways stuff Im messing with:

Regarding QAC as a recovery move I think Pikachu is really gonna shine with Ledge Cancelled QAC. this gives us really 3 options regarding recovery

Ledge = safe if successful but likely death if predicted

Stage = extreme landing lag so expect to get punished hard

Ledge cancel = safeish but predictable if used too much (sort of like the spacies recovering with side B ledge cancels) but its a lot safer for pikachu due to Quick Attack's long range.

You can also ledge cancel it from the ledge (seen in one of my VOD's) as a good way to return to center stage if the opponent leaves the option open.

On stage:

Im also a big fan of QAC Wavedash ---> dtilt/ftilt as a poking option. You can choose to WD back or forward for spacing or input a forward air before you touch the ground (which will auto cancel) allowing you to quickly input a move (grab/tilt/smash)

If your opponent is shielding QAC through their shield is a really good mixup. you can either upair or autocancel fair.

AC Fair lets you grab/uptilt/ just wait till they act out of shield allowing you to punish.

Pikachu's upair is fast enough you can beat a lot of your opponent's options as they try to jump out of shield bair.

I feel like the new patch just means that we need to reserve our QAC for very specific situations rather then use it freely (as we have to be at very close range to really make use of it.)

If anyone else comes up with some stuff let me know

 

[Choice Scarf]

I think you are confusing QAC with regular edge canceling. You don't need to time an input when you hit the edge cancel, it just does it automatically. That's why Pika can also do it in Melee or Sm4sh, or why other characters can cancel aerials the same way. Conversely, I don't think you can use it to recover since your momentum is towards instead of away from the edge, unless I'm just wrong.

Other than that, a lot of stuff mentioned can be confirmed from previous versions as nothing else changed for Pika number wise. It may be good to look into the new wavedash distance he gets due to the physics upgrade, since more perfect wavelands are a thing now. It could help with f-throw chases, increase wavedash OoS effectiveness, and compensate for QAC's "lack" of range.

As for the costume, I love it, it's just surprisingly noticeable when costumes usually aren't. Maybe it's because it covers his whole head. It is dope though.

 

[sheNanagans]

Yeah when I said Ledge cancelled QAC I meant QA lol. too many acronyms

I definitly feel like wavelanding out of QAC allows more distance now than before (probably because I rarely Wave Landed out of QAC before)

Have we confirmed anything regarding electric throws? or is it just an aesthetics change? more stun on down throw would be a pretty large buff imo.