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3.5 Pika Discussion Time!

Psyant

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A++ post. We really need more frame data around here.

I've kind of neglected to experiment with QAC grounded aerials much personally. I knew you could l-cancel them, but not fastfall. I like the idea that they allow you to land faster, but I always favored just using waveland or double jump nair from QAC because I felt they were much more reliable and safer. Mostly just waveland since 3.5 as I feel QAC's range without it is kind of dangerously short.

Cancelling into aerials right away to have the quickest action time is interesting though. Not so much for hitting the aerials themselves for me but for being able to grab/up smash faster out of QAC than you can with a waveland. I have caught people off guard with occasional grounded QAC Nair's though. After reading your post, I think I'll put some more time into trying out grounded QAC aerials.
 

Defile

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I don't think I'm really a fair representation of a good Olimar, but I remember getting bodied by a really good Pikachu a while ago. It's not easy for him to get past him if Pikachu's zipping all over the place, and as long as he's not above Olimar he's pretty much safe.

Gonna have to try this MU more though.
Hey Robosteven...were you talking about me? If so, I'm flattered, and also sad that you're quitting Smash competitively for a little while (I think that's what you said on your Facebook post). Anyway, I probably have more experience with the Olimar matchup than any other PM Pikachu main, because my training partner is an Olimar main and we play each other almost every day. I did well against you because I know that matchup like the back of my hand after playing it so often. The matchup was probably in Olimar's favor in 3.02, but I think it's slightly better for Pikachu in 3.5 now that the yellow Pikmin aren't immune to electricity.
 

Psyant

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Was messing around on Smashville and found that you can do this on moving platforms by hitting down to drop through the platform and then down airing right away. Already known? Seems pretty useless but it is amusing.
 

robosteven

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Hey Robosteven...were you talking about me? If so, I'm flattered, and also sad that you're quitting Smash competitively for a little while (I think that's what you said on your Facebook post). Anyway, I probably have more experience with the Olimar matchup than any other PM Pikachu main, because my training partner is an Olimar main and we play each other almost every day. I did well against you because I know that matchup like the back of my hand after playing it so often. The matchup was probably in Olimar's favor in 3.02, but I think it's slightly better for Pikachu in 3.5 now that the yellow Pikmin aren't immune to electricity.
Yeah, I was referencing you. Your Pikachu is scary. :p

We need to play more if at all ever possible because jeez do I have ZERO Pikachu experience as ANY character lol

But yeah, I really do want to keep playing competitively, but I can't take playing Olimar seriously anymore. His bugs are getting to the point where it's too much for me to mentally and physically handle when they happen, and I don't have the drive to really dedicate time to learn or main anyone else. Feels bad, man.
 

Comet7

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Was messing around on Smashville and found that you can do this on moving platforms by hitting down to drop through the platform and then down airing right away. Already known? Seems pretty useless but it is amusing.
Yeah I've accidentally done it a few times and messed around with it in training mode. It's as you said, though: useless.

Wait... I should see if that can reset a missed tech.
 
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Choice Scarf

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I was looking for a new thing to use in response to the opponent SDing. I had settled for backwards crawl, but this looks like Pika is facepalming...or I guess headdesking platforming. And that's just hilariously perfect.

I'd try perfecting the "pratfall canceled Dair + facepalm IRL" tech but I think that requires 3 hands
 

Choice Scarf

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I'm trying that out and I feel like it only autocancels before the active frames. I guess that coincides with QAC Fair though.
 

robosteven

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QAC question.

Can I Quick Attack towards the ground and then input any aerial on the C-stick or does that not work?
 

Choice Scarf

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So I posted this on reddit as a response but I don't think people will see it as it's hella massive. It turned into this sort of weird means of summarizing my thoughts about the 3.5 changes as a whole, so this will probably be my final criticisms on the matter and then I'll put 100% into actually adapting. Read if you want, might take you a while :p

QAC is still very good, and it can be done from the ground – you don’t have to short hop. You can still do most cancels including jump, waveland, aerial, and specials so the options are still there. The only things that were removed was Fair and pratfall, but that’s more because of the animation change than the zip restriction. And you never wanted to use it as a main approach option in the first place – it’s too vulnerable to anticipation and linger hitboxes.

What actually sucks is the meta implications of the nerf – the increasing tech floor’s effect on the community perspective on Pika and QAC and the PMDT’s opaqueness about their plans are for Pika are much greater dangers than the nerfs of QAC itself. This may take a bit of time to explain so level with me here.

So first what does the second zip restriction mean? Combined with the animation change, Pika:
  • Can no longer recover relatively safely on stage
  • Can no longer chase opponent from one side of the stage to the other
  • No longer has strong platform movement that allows Pika to soft-counter the opponent's stage control
  • Has slightly tighter and earlier QAC timing
  • Can no longer use QAC -> Fair or QAC -> pratfall
Based on what the PMDT said, it felt like the nerfs were only keeping the recovery aspect in mind, maybe with a little bit of the whole nerfing burst movement thing too. Obviously, being able to recover onstage when your recovery is already fast, far reaching, and unpredictable is broken, so the change for the reason alone is justified. As you noticed though, Pika’s ability to move to any part of the stage is now limited, which directly nerfs his neutral and stagger game. In neutral, it removes Pika's ability to apply movement pressure/intimidation - the one benefit of QACing all over the stage is making your opponent unsure of where and when you'll go next, assuming you're being unpredictable. The simplest form of QAC bait (QA1 forward-> QA2C back) is no longer possible, and you can longer gain elevation onto platforms safely. For stagger, Pika is now limited in range for being able to chase opponents. The primary restriction is the length of one QA, which combined with QAC waveland at just the right angle can get comparable length to a dashed aerial. This means that the moves Pika uses must keep his opponents within this range and still staggered, so the moves must minimize knockback while maximizing hitstun all while also being horizontal as Pika can’t chase above anymore.

For an expert or specialist, these issues can be dealt with. Neutral game just means the player should properly rely on Melee-esque dash dance baits, jolts, d-tilt and uair spacing, as well as exploring bait options limited to single zip QAC. For stagger there’s more lab work needed to figure out what moves work on what characters at what percents, and whether QAC-QAC strings can be used to compensate for higher knockback moves. It’s just problem solving. However, this shows you the trend of an increasing minimum effective tech execution that is already very high from QA angles and targeting, Uair/Nair/Fair timings, and limited effectiveness of general fundamentals due to short range. Pika’s high tech floor is only getting higher and discouraging more people from trying to learn Pikachu, and that is where the problem really lies.

An increasing tech floor upsets his game balance and makes his weaknesses outmatch his strengths. Those strengths already need a high amount of technical skill to be even called strengths. His great recovery needs precision aiming to always sweetspot, and needs multiple approaches in order to stay unpredictable. His SHFFL aerials must be executed quickly and acted out of just as quickly to avoid getting shield grabbed. And while this is usually something that you accept for chars like Fox or Lucas, Pika also has the worst weakness – range. A short range and no disjoint immediately makes your spacing and zoning potential inferior, forcing you to use more tech (dash-dance, wavedash) to compensate. QAC similarly would help his range issue by giving Pika a faster means of getting in where he actually had options, but that was still a high tech skill. It was nerfed in a way that forces more emphasis on tech precision tactics, which is of course encouraged for Pika’s archetype, but because of the combined low range and low damage output, Pika has very few options that are safe and worth it, so it’s hard for Pika to shift the balance to a greater extended advantageous position at the same extent as how his light weight and commit-heavy moveset make him easily fall into a disadvantageous position.

Long-story short I want to say that’s the underlying reason why no one picks Pika up and just think badly of him in general. Most of the community would probably think “why would anyone play a more tech precision demanding, less rewarding Fox?” The biggest thing Pika had for him before was all of the QAC shenanigans, but since this version discourages shenanigans his main appeal disappeared. You could default to why Pika was good in Melee, but you have to remember that Pika was only mid-tier, and the rest of the PM roster has more characters that are less gimpable than spacies. At the moment, his worst MUs are chars like ICs and Olimar which are just as uncommon as Pika is, but as their metagames develop it will only get worse for a character that’s had a fair bit more time over meta development without really going anywhere with it.

So then the question of “what is the PMDT doing?” is my biggest concern. Whether or not Pikachu is being cared for by the PMDT at the same level as other chars is something rather hard to tell. Pika's changes are of course trying to get closer to Melee as they have been since he was introduced, but at the same time aspects of him from Brawl that were also good (second zip QAC and ledge grab skull bash in particular) are getting removed. Sure, there were aspects of Brawl like chaingrabs and jab lock/QAC lock that would be discouraged, but it’s still debatable whether Pika was considered at his best in Melee (which of course he wasn’t because 64, but that’s another monster). His past PM style buffs (64 Bair, extended range on Fair/Dair, Uair damage increase) have been very helpful but they felt subtle. The other good things about Pika in this version is that his u-throw release point is fixed and his wavedashes are smoother/longer, but those are more universal than anything. The rest of Pika's moveset was not changed that much at all - everyone else not from Melee got minor damage/knockback adjustments that really felt like they were getting optimized, and Pika not receiving any of that just gives the impression that he’s either being played safe design wise or just outright ignored.

There is circumstantial evidence of both more and less care than implied though. On one hand, if you look at the QAC aerials and see how QAC Uair perfectly fits into its allowed frames, or how QAC Fair doesn't activate but can autocancel into F-smash - all that seems way too perfect to be a fluke. But on the other end you see that dash attack and skull bash are still relatively unviable or extremely niche options, or how the victory CSP for Pika’s party hat is still blue instead of purple, and that makes it seem like Pika is constantly being overlooked. Hell, I don’t even know who is in charge of Pika on the team, or if any of the developers main him, so the lack of transparency is rather frustrating when you can see greater love/overall responsiveness from the PMDT about other characters on Smashboards (Charizard, Game and Watch, Ice Climbers are all good examples of this). The point is it’s hard to tell what the PMDT is thinking in terms of what their goals are with Pikachu, and their relatively low amount of tweaking we can see just gives a bad impression of negative bias towards Pika, even though that’s probably not true. Of course, you have to remember that 3.5 wasn’t necessarily a balance patch – it was more about bringing everyone done to the same level. So this all could have been really really trying to nail QAC down to a T.

But hey, Pika himself isn’t that transparent to most people either, so we as the Pika mains have to get him out there! The bottom line is Pika was nerfed, but whether or not it's truly character breaking is not known yet, but we still need to work with the changes we were given instead of always ranting about it. All I see now is people dropping Pika or saying he sucks solely because of the QAC nerf and not putting in effort to find new solutions. No longer feel comfortable approaching? Then don't - try camping or baiting with dash-dance/QAC in place. Still want platform movement? Learn QA edge cancel – it’s still as good as it was in Melee. Miss QA tricks? Single zip QA still has almost the full arsenal and benefits from even better wavelands. And there are still shenanigans with Uair and b-reverse/wavebounce t-jolt that still need to be commonplace. We as Pika mains can adapt, and frankly, it's pretty great that Pika didn't have a complete playstyle overhaul like some other characters. If you really really think Pika needs changes, it's either give Pika the love ourselves, push Pika as far as he'll go, really understand his core attributes and normals (which should be the biggest point of this version), become technical monsters of unparalleled precision, and get him out there in the community's eyes so that his playstyle, his moves, and his effort to reward ratio are understood by everyone. Or we let him die out and force the PMDT to make possibly too radical changes to make Pika relevant again, but I for one would rather not let that happen.

Okay rant over, but TL;DR it’s not only about QAC people!
 

robosteven

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It's okay, pretty sure only one person is working on Olimar too. :yeahboi:

Glad you brought up the range thing. While the comment I made on the PM Social thread about picking up a new character was mostly a joke, I did actually sit down and try to learn Pikachu and, as an outsider to the character, I had two primary complaints.

One: His range is ****. Yeah he's got speed, but he doesn't have Sonic speed, and even then I'm pretty sure his range is worse than Sonic's.

Two: I'm not fast enough to consistently do things as this character except shorthop Nair a bunch (which is pretty damn good by the way), and as you already mentioned, it's easier to get results doing nearly the same thing as a different character (like Fox).

Pika's hard to use and most characters feel better than he does at doing things that I'd want to use Pika for in the first place (fast attacks, grab followups, decent recovery, offstage gimps). I like the character, but not for anything more than whipping him out for friendlies sometimes. I like the idea of learning how to do more cool stuff with him, but if other characters can do it better for less effort why bother? And that's an unfortunate thought to have.
 

Vofgofm

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I'm glad pika got custom skin love. it took me a while to get used to the QAC change and I've finally adapted. I'm still looking for best practices now.
 

Yambotico

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So what are some reliable combos with pika? My combos have basically consisted of uair to uair, nair, or bair. What else does pika have?
 

Yambotico

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Also I'm not sure if this has been discovered before, but if you crawl backwards to the edge of a stage and reset the stick to neutral, pika will fall off and grab the ledge.
 

misterplatt

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Yeah, whenever I use dash attack, I immediately regret it. I feel like I'm stunned for longer than they are, and 100% of the time I'd be better off approaching with a short-hop nair. I'm not sure what should be done with it as of right now, but it shouldn't be left as is in my opinion.
 

Psyant

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Yeah, dash attack is just straight garbage. The only time it's ever really useful is when your opponent is right next to the ledge at mid-high %s and you can knock them off with it and you don't have time to use anything else that hits harder.

On stage it puts you at a frame disadvantage for landing it until high %s, even if they don't CC/ASDI down. Add on to that how punishable it also is if you miss and it's just an inexcusably bad move.
 
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Yambotico

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I've found out that empty pivots are extremely good for pika. They're also incredibly easy to do in pm. All you have to do is dash one way and then move the stick a bit passed the center they other way. This is much better than flicking your stick back because you'll have complete control of it and it doesn't matter how tight your control stick is. Dash towards -> empty pivot -> utilt is great for stuffing aerial approaches and starting combos. Dash away -> empty pivot -> dtilt is an amazing defensive option. I honestly think that every pikachu main should learn these.
 
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Choice Scarf

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I think that''s just a pivot in the other games where you can dash dance? So in the context of PM you can probably just say "pivot Utilt" and mean the same thing.

I'd love to incorporate more pivots in my game if I could just get enough time to hammer out finer control of my control stick. I just compensate with shield stopping, RAR wavedash, and crouch out of run for now but pivots just sound cleaner.
 

Yambotico

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The reason I didn't want to say "pivot Utilt" is because that suggests, at least to me, performing a utilt on the pivot frame, which is TAS level tech. Though if people are fine with saying that then I'm okay with it too.
 

Comet7

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yeah, pivots are great. one use of it (that is gimmicky) is to just stuff approaches with pivot f smash since people don't expect pika to have (or want to put out) a disjointed hitbox that will out prioritize their approach or beat it range-wise.
 
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InfamousLuffy

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How do i grab the ledge with Pikachu's QAC? (I'm new with Pikachu)
 

Scatz

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Don't hold down on your analog when passing through the ledge. Any other angle has to be aimed at the ledge.
 

Yambotico

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I'm not sure if this is already known, but it's new to me so I'm gonna share it. After using thunder jolt in the air, there's a window right before the move ends where if you hit the ground during it you will do a no impact land (NIL). This means there is only 1 frame of lag rather than 4 frames from standard landing lag. The easiest way to replicate this is to do a full hop and do a thunder jolt immediately after. If you hit b too early you'll get his normal landing animation, and if you hit b too late you'll get the laggy end lag animation. If you do it right Pikachu will just be standing up.
 

InfamousLuffy

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what scatz said was correct. you can just quick attack diagonally from the stage and grab the ledge. i forget the spacing for it, but i don't think it's too hard. i should get back into PM.
xD i didn't know the more you know
 

Psyant

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Yeah, QA to grab the ledge from on stage isn't too difficult. Once you've got it down you'll rarely ever SD from it. It's super good too. Most people aren't even aware Pikachu can do it, and you can often hang back a bit to trick them into recovering to the ledge and then suddenly take it from them. It also allows you to get the ledge quickly in situations where you just wouldn't make it in time otherwise. Once you've got it down in training mode just be confident enough to start doing it in actual matches and you should see some pleasing results. Definitely an essential skill to learn.
 
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InfamousLuffy

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Yeah, QA to grab the ledge from on stage isn't too difficult. Once you've got it down you'll rarely ever SD from it. It's super good too. Most people aren't even aware Pikachu can do it, and you can often hang back a bit to trick them into recovering to the ledge and then suddenly take it from them. It also allows you to get the ledge quickly in situations where you just wouldn't make it in time otherwise. Once you've got it down in training mode just be confident enough to start doing it in actual matches and you should see some pleasing results. Definitely an essential skill to learn.
Can you do it consistently?
 

Psyant

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Yup. It's really not that difficult. It's been a part of my tech skill practice routine since I started playing Pikachu though. Every time you want to practice stuff from the ledge in training mode, use QA to get there and you can't help but get good at it before long. It took me a while longer after I was fairly consistent with it in training mode to have the confidence to use it regularly in matches though. It's a lot easier to get down than than QAC and you can use it in every game with Pikachu, so it's good to learn.
 

InfamousLuffy

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Interesting this makes me want to make Pikachu one of my pocket characters.
 

hell-dew

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seriously was QAC that OP that they nerfed it that bad UGH i hate melee pikachu and their just turning PM pika more and more into his boring as heck incarnation. I barely even want to play the character anymore if their gonna do crap like this it gives me no faith in the game. this is one of those nerfs thats like LOL you liked this fun mechanic you literally have mastered WHILE ITS GONE NOW and yeah i vastly prefered pikachu in brawl then melee and QAC was IMO one of the most fun things they could have included on him (and it was FAR from OP)

and it makes pika way less fun to fight against and way more generic, at this point i see little reason in maining him in this game well RIP PM pika main. also pika isnt a character you should be worried about his recovery being good seriously IN EVERY SINGLE SMASH GAME HE HAS A GOOD RECOVERY ITS NOTHING NEW. im sorry but the choice in nerfing his QAC is laughably sad.
 

sheNanagans

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QAC in the 3.0 version would have made Pikachu an ungodly good character in this update (arguably top 3-5). Having unlimited stage control is honestly pretty dumb, and as a Pika main during that time it was pretty obvious how dumb it was to play against. QAC is perfectly fine as it is now. you can still use it as an approach option, it just isnt nearly as threatening as it used to be.
 

Cubelarooso

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Just because it would have been broken in its old form doesn't mean the most fun thing in the game had to be completely removed. QAC could have been nerfed in a way that preserved what made it unique and enjoyable, instead of being turned into the sloppy mess it is now.
 
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