3.5 Charizard Glide Comparison + Fixed Pac File

[Blank Mauser]

Hello all. If you've been keeping up with 3.5 Zard changes, I feel I can understand all of your disappointment with the current glide. Feeling like it takes away a major mobility option, and taking away something many of us practiced and thought made the character interesting. As a result, we asked Metroid what the purpose of the change was, and I urge you all to consider his response:

You’re right, I was not the one directly responsible for the changes made to Charizard. However, as a member of the PMDT and one of the primary playtester for the character, I have more privileged insight than most people.

Contrary to how it may feel, the glide angles were untouched from 3.02 to 3.5 (max upward angle of 50, max downwards of -60). This retention from 3.02 is actually inconsistent with the modifications made to Pit’s and MK’s glides, whose max upward angles were both changed from 70/80 to 45, respectively.

The inability to angle glide upward upon starting it may be due to the forced starting animation, which was necessary to eliminate glide braking. Charizard’s glide previously overrode any momentum he had before starting it, which lead to a mechanic that PMDT members have dubbed “glide braking” (similar to G&W’s bucket braking) in which Charizard can SDI attacks downward at high %s to force a missed tech animation while sliding off the stage – this puts Charizard out of hitstun from the attack and allows him to immediately glide, which negated his momentum and allowed him to survive attacks while recovering to the stage (granted, without any jumps but still the ability to up+B). Such an ability was blatantly out of line with the PMDT’s general stance on weakening recoveries, particularly on a character who is so heavy and difficult to knock offstage to begin with. After attempting to fix the issue several times, none of which were met with success, glide was eventually given the starting animation that is currently in 3.5, which factors into account Charizard’s current momentum when initiating glide rather than completely negating it like previous iterations. Although the starting animation does also add commitment on glide start-up, this added commitment is in line with the changes to MK’s and Pit’s glide, with the former having a max glide duration of 80 frames and the inability to return to a glide state after its first aerial usage while the latter now expends all but 1 jump and has IASA frames delayed by 3 frames; it is regrettable that such a drastic change had to be made to Charizard’s glide and that it alters the timing for glair follow-ups, but it was necessary to remove glide braking and this change is consistent with the overall theme of adding commitment to all glides. (For what it’s worth, it’s still possible to wavebounce glide start, but it has a less noticeable effect compared to before.)

The other noticeable change made to Charizard’s glide is the new turnaround animation upon canceling it. Although there was a consensus to standardize and add commitment to the three glides, the PMDT still wanted them to be unique from each other – hence why only MK has a glide timer and Pit’s glide only reduces him to 1 jump instead of taking away all of his jumps. Along the same lines, Charizard’s glide is the only glide that can be reversed upon glide end. Rather than eliminating this unique trait, this trait was retained but an animation was added to make the turnaround more visually consistent – Charizard’s previous ability to immediately face the opposite direction in the air upon ending a move without going into the Z-axis was jarring compared to other actions that cause the user to turn around (Jigglypuff’s, Kirby’s, MKs, and D3’s double-jump turnarounds, for example). As you may have noticed though, this turnaround animation does alter some timings for glide end turnaround tricks; for what it’s worth, I didn’t feel too strongly about this change one way or the other but there were those in the PMDT who felt that the lack of a turnaround animation looked unprofessional and visually jarring.

I hope this answer is satisfactory for you and the other Charizard mains on the Skype group. I tried to be open and address your inquiries, but if you have other questions, please let me know what else I can do.

That being said, our best understanding for the added start-up animation was to remove glide braking. However, I have altered Zard's pac files in such a way that restores the functionality of the old glide somewhat, while still restricting glide breaking just as 3.5's Glide does. I'll add the download link below for you all to play-test, however I wanted to form a solid argument as to why I think this should be restored.

Starting with this line from Metroid's response:

Although the starting animation does also add commitment on glide start-up, this added commitment is in line with the changes to MK’s and Pit’s glide, with the former having a max glide duration of 80 frames and the inability to return to a glide state after its first aerial usage while the latter now expends all but 1 jump and has IASA frames delayed by 3 frames;

If the start-up was truly meant to add more commitment, I feel this change contradicts it:

--Glide Attack and GlideEnd interrupts made earlier to compensate for added startup animation.

This essentially lets you end glide or do glair just as early. All the start-up animation does is restrict Zard from angling the glide removing all the fun stuff he could do before. There is a change however, already in place that DOES accomplish the goal of adding more risk:

--Glide Attack intangibility has been removed; hitboxes have been shrunken, hitboxes have less disjoint. and hitlag multiplier decreased from 1.15x -> 1x on strong hit.

Zard's glide now has negative disjoint. As in the hitboxes for it are ridiculously small and hes incredibly vulnerable during it. (Check them out in debug mode if you care to see) This effectively guts its use on-stage to almost a non-option combined with the nerf to his control. Now people might say "They're eliminating burst movement without appropriate risk." However I feel the fact that Zard loses his jumps after gliding is an appropriate risk for the reduced power of this option.

Its a high-risk mobility option that takes time to master. 3.5's current glide really limits options such as:

• Ledge Canceling
• Edge Glair/Edge GlideEnd
• Glair Combos
• Empty Glides
• Wavebouncing(Removed by turnaround animation)
• Ledge Stall(Invul Refresh)

Losing the ability to angle his glide really just restricts Zard much more to the ground combined with the rest of the changes. This would be fine but I feel like this was an essential part of what made him interesting, and honestly just FEELS really awkward. I hope the video above demonstrates clearly the comparisons between the glides and the PMDT will consider looking into it. Thanks for your time!

Pac file link:
Version 1
Version 2

They are obviously going to feel different because of the momentum looping code that was added, as well as the increase on initial horizontal momentum. So try them out.

 

[Scatz]

Really like that you found a way to maintain 3.02 glide without glide breaking. Is there any way to maintain a animation for it without being stuck in a non-controlled state?

 

[Blank Mauser]

Really like that you found a way to maintain 3.02 glide without glide breaking. Is there any way to maintain a animation for it without being stuck in a non-controlled state?

I don't think so, though you could speed up the starting animation for it. As far as I know, you are in a non-controlled state until you go into "GlideDirection" which is simply an animation with Zard's rotation angles stored.

It's also not an exact replica of 3.02's glide. I tried to get it to match up as best I could, but it will still take some adjustment. At the very least its control is definitely restored. However ledge cancel timing/spacing will need to be practiced again.

 

[standardtoaster]

What is the difference between version 1 and 2?

 

[DoctorFS]

This looks really interesting! I don't have access to a setup right now, but I may test it out once I do. I'll always be in favor of anything that brings back the old glide's functionality in an acceptable fashion.

 

[Blank Mauser]

What is the difference between version 1 and 2?

Version 1 = 1.1 vertical movement, and vertical momentum loop disabled.

Version 2 = 1.25 vertical movement, and vertical momentum loop enabled.

Ideally I'd proly bring the initial glide speed back to 3.02. This was just a rough proof of concept since I didn't actually know if it could be done until I looked into it.

 

[LavaLatte]

Wooooo this looks great! Definitely gonna try it out =] What I really missed about old glide were its onstage mindgames and platform movement, as weird as that sounds for a "recovery" move. The risk/reward felt so daring - nothing screams gutsy like a good old tomahawk glide grab.

I hope this change is seriously considered, more power to you Blank!

 

[Heroofhatz]

First of all, thanks Blank for doing such an awesome job! And also thanks to any of the PMDT guys who are willing to work with us and try and see if we can come up with a compromise.

I will say that back in 3.02, glide mixups onstage were incredibly powerful, and if done correctly would force a 50/50 guess almost every time you used one. For example, if I glided at my opponent in the middle of the stage, he has two options, he can either block in possible incoming Glair, or try and hit my out of my glide. Now if he tries to hit me out of my glide and I can predict it with a Glair, then he's going to lose because of how disjointed and invincible Glair is. Now if they decide to block, I can always tomahawk out of my glide and grab them before they can react. However, this mixup was only useful because of how good Glair was, and if I'm honest it was way too good in 3.02. Even with the old glide, the mixup would lose in 3.5 cause of the Glair nerf. And if I get hit out of my glide, I'm in a horrible spot with no jumps. I'll either be forced to tech or get hit offstage and be forced to recover with just an up B. Thus even if the ability to tomahawk glide in neutral is restored, the mixup isn't there really since Glair got nerfed so much.

However, with the restoration of the new glide, we get back all the movement techs that we spent the past year inventing. And while these techs are incredibly useful, they are still really risky as a form of movement because of how punishing it is to get hit out of glide with Zard. Gliding can be one of Zard's riskiest moves but I feel that the expanse of options is a necessary since having a lot of options is what makes a character good in Smash. Having access to those glide tricks gives depth to the character and allows us to be more creative with how we use our options effectively.

Well there's my two cents about this, I'm hoping that we can get some sort of compromise worked out cause I do agree with what the PMDT was trying to do, but I think we can do it better if we work together :D

 

[Blank Mauser]

So I'm very happy Glide appears to be fixed from the 3.6 trailer. One question for @ standardtoaster or anyone who can answer. Will this change be reverted also?:

GlideStart’s initial minimum horizontal velocity increased.

Just curious. Would be nice.

 

[Heroofhatz]

Thank you based PMDT

 

[Tremendo Dude]

Awesome! Now all we need is a bit of priority restored on glide attack (at least enough to pierce through projectiles) and moving the invincibility on Up B back to the first 4 frames, and I will be a happy Zard again.

 

[Remzi]

I was just watching the 3.6 trailer and noticed the little bit where Zard's glide seemed to be restored to its former glory.

If this thread is even partially responsible for the change, I am forever in your debt Blank.