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2018 Tier List

Chilljazy

Smash Rookie
Joined
Apr 9, 2018
Messages
2
It's been a while but if they are planning to put in Daisy they should also bring in Tatanga as well
 

Jamisinon

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Feb 9, 2018
Messages
99
Location
Tri-state
https://smashboards.com/tiers/#1,10...,11,15,19.D#3,16,21,17,26.E#10,1.10,8,4,2,1,0
^ Maybe something like that feels more current. I agree with you about too many brackets. I think yoshi is underrated but aMSa is also currently crushing it with yoshi so that makes the character seem even better. Pichu is underrated. Ganon gets wrecked so hard by certain characters so I don't think he's underrated but that's just me. I'm more bothered by Fox having his own tier (at least on smashboards) and the Falco, Marth, Sheik, Puff order. I still think the 2nd-5th order is debatable but I believe people would have Puff higher than 5th in the current meta.
I would really like to see a 25-man panel vote on a tier list so there could be an updated one. I'm personally not a huge fan of tier lists in general but knocking Fox back down off of his own tier might reduce that "Fox is OP in Melee" stigma. We could also be giving characters more respect i.e. puff, pichu. Lastly I think it would just be more accurate and I agree current tier lists are outdated.
 
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TOVL

Smash Cadet
Joined
Oct 25, 2016
Messages
32
Location
CT
The current tier list is outdated, except everyone has different opinions on the meta and how characters should be ranked from results (representation and especially hbox comes to mind). Really not very many people would be too happy with the tier list, whatever it may be, and while I myself want a new one, I do think that a new one is not coming any time soon if only because lack of motivation.

Representation vs Theoretical success is the real debate, then after that "do we need a tier list".
 

GatGoat

Smash Cadet
Joined
Mar 2, 2018
Messages
55
Location
The Ledge
https://smashboards.com/tiers/#1,10...,11,15,19.D#3,16,21,17,26.E#10,1.10,8,4,2,1,0
^ Maybe something like that feels more current. I agree with you about too many brackets. I think yoshi is underrated but aMSa is also currently crushing it with yoshi so that makes the character seem even better. Pichu is underrated. Ganon gets wrecked so hard by certain characters so I don't think he's underrated but that's just me. I'm more bothered by Fox having his own tier (at least on smashboards) and the Falco, Marth, Sheik, Puff order. I still think the 2nd-5th order is debatable but I believe people would have Puff higher than 5th in the current meta.
I would really like to see a 25-man panel vote on a tier list so there could be an updated one. I'm personally not a huge fan of tier lists in general but knocking Fox back down off of his own tier might reduce that "Fox is OP in Melee" stigma. We could also be giving characters more respect i.e. puff, pichu. Lastly I think it would just be more accurate and I agree current tier lists are outdated.
how do i make a tier list like that so i can give my opinion
 

GatGoat

Smash Cadet
Joined
Mar 2, 2018
Messages
55
Location
The Ledge
https://smashboards.com/tiers/#Melee
scroll down to toggle editing (bottom right of page) and you can change the names of the tiers, delete tiers, add tiers, change colors of the tiers and move characters by clicking and dragging, then just copy the shareable link at the bottom left :)
thanks lol i figured it out not long after asking , i added the link into the original post lmk what you think
 
D

Deleted member

Guest
I think this looks pretty accurate except in my opinion Captain Falcon should not be top tier.
 
D

Deleted member

Guest
why wouldnt you consider falcon top tier? all he really lacks is a projectile
Well for one: to me, His recovery is pretty bad.

Second: like you stated, he doesn't have a projectile, which is actually important when your opponent is off stage (for adding damage like fox and falco as a example)

Third: If attacked with projectiles all he can do is shield, (unlike Fox, with i his shine and Zelda, with Nayru's Love can send the projectile right back to the attacker.

Those are a few things that in my opinion set him back. However, i think he should be at least between Samus and pikachu. But this all my opinion and i think the rest of the tier list looks great :)
 
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GatGoat

Smash Cadet
Joined
Mar 2, 2018
Messages
55
Location
The Ledge
Well for one: to me, His recovery is pretty bad.

Second: like you stated, he doesn't have a projectile, which is actually important when your opponent is off stage (for adding damage like fox and falco as a example)

Third: If attacked with projectiles all he can do is shield, (unlike Fox, with i his shine and Zelda, with Nayru's Love can send the projectile right back to the attacker.

Those are a few things that in my opinion set him back. However, i think he should be at least between Samus and pikachu. But this all my opinion and i think the rest of the tier list looks great :)
Samus is a ****ty version of sheik although i do think samus is more fun to play. but to stay on point i think you might be right about falcon not being top tier since his recovery is pretty bad, and he doesnt have alot of good out of shield options which im just realizing now. I was playing fox yesterday which is out of character for me but i waveshined a falcon across fd and shine spiked him with ****ing GRACE lol i pitied falcon from that moment
 

Crooked Crow

drank from lakes of sorrow
Joined
Jun 11, 2007
Messages
2,248
why wouldnt you consider falcon top tier? all he really lacks is a projectile
His disadvantage state is extremely poor. Falcon gets comboed pretty hard, and as someone else mentioned, he's in a risky position off stage. He's high tier. Always has been.

Sheik matchup also isn't pleasant. Falcon has a more barebones neutral and has to usually commit much harder in any given scenario against a top tier. This is significant.
 
D

Deleted member

Guest
Samus is a ****ty version of sheik although i do think samus is more fun to play. but to stay on point i think you might be right about falcon not being top tier since his recovery is pretty bad, and he doesnt have alot of good out of shield options which im just realizing now. I was playing fox yesterday which is out of character for me but i waveshined a falcon across fd and shine spiked him with ****ing GRACE lol i pitied falcon from that moment
What's funny is i main Zelda and i find Falcon easy to fight. Once you learn not to be afraid of his speed he is fairly easy match up. But yeah, i think there should be redo of the Melee tier list. And yours looks pretty accurate :)
 
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Jamisinon

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Feb 9, 2018
Messages
99
Location
Tri-state
I think the tier list is pretty solid. I'd personally make a few adjustments like Puff > Sheik and if you put ICies in top tier then Falcon should be there too. But that's mostly just me nit picking.
My 2 cents on the Falcon discussion is that while I agree his weight/fall speed and poor recovery make him easy to combo and susceptible to gimps he is still the fastest character and has a good combo game himself. His recovery isn't any worse than Sheik's (I think Falcon's is actually better bc at least he typically gets more opportunities to recover since Sheik is lighter).
While I agree projectiles can be an issue for Falcon you have to keep in mind with the exception of FD he can use the platforms to avoid projectiles and approach. It isn't like spacies are regularly using shine to actually reflect projectiles. More often they simply avoid the projectiles. I think Falcon's speed and platforms still give him a decent approach. Marth doesn't have any projectiles, nor does Puff, but both of those characters can find ways to approach still.
I still think how easily Falcon gets combo'ed is a major weakness, and Sheik and spacies can mess him up. But the character's regular appearance in top 8 at majors by players like Wizzy, S2J and N0ne show he's still up there.
 

Crooked Crow

drank from lakes of sorrow
Joined
Jun 11, 2007
Messages
2,248
What's funny is i main Zelda and i find Falcon easy to fight. Once you learn not to be afraid of his speed he is fairly easy match up. But yeah, i think there should be redo of the Melee tier list. And yours looks pretty accurate :)
Fairly easy matchup? Zelda is free in every sense of the word for Falcon. There is no getting used to his speed, his advantage state and mobility crap all over you.

The matchup is hell.
 

GatGoat

Smash Cadet
Joined
Mar 2, 2018
Messages
55
Location
The Ledge
I think the tier list is pretty solid. I'd personally make a few adjustments like Puff > Sheik and if you put ICies in top tier then Falcon should be there too. But that's mostly just me nit picking.
My 2 cents on the Falcon discussion is that while I agree his weight/fall speed and poor recovery make him easy to combo and susceptible to gimps he is still the fastest character and has a good combo game himself. His recovery isn't any worse than Sheik's (I think Falcon's is actually better bc at least he typically gets more opportunities to recover since Sheik is lighter).
While I agree projectiles can be an issue for Falcon you have to keep in mind with the exception of FD he can use the platforms to avoid projectiles and approach. It isn't like spacies are regularly using shine to actually reflect projectiles. More often they simply avoid the projectiles. I think Falcon's speed and platforms still give him a decent approach. Marth doesn't have any projectiles, nor does Puff, but both of those characters can find ways to approach still.
I still think how easily Falcon gets combo'ed is a major weakness, and Sheik and spacies can mess him up. But the character's regular appearance in top 8 at majors by players like Wizzy, S2J and N0ne show he's still up there.
although falcon marth and puff all lack projectiles the big difference seperating falcon and marth/puff on the tier list is disjointed hitboxes.
 

PixelSun

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Jan 30, 2018
Messages
111
Location
México
I don't really see Mario in the same tier as Doc. since the second one is basically a stronger version of the first.
 

Crooked Crow

drank from lakes of sorrow
Joined
Jun 11, 2007
Messages
2,248
Mario has much better range and recovery compared to Doc, he's not just the weaker version
The range and recovery are minimally better. However, Dr. Mario has the better projectile, better cape, chaingrabs, and kill confirms directly out of them.

Dr. Mario suffers from relatively poor range, subpar recovery capabilities, and isn't the most mobile. His frame data is decent, though. Too bad about having a bottom tier grab box.

Mario has a slightly better combo game too, as his hitboxes have less knockback compared to Dr. Mario. Only slightly, again.

All in all, Dr. Mario has a way to grab certain characters at 15-20% and chaingrab them into a kill. Megavitamins are better at controlling space, the whole point of a projectile, and you're gone if he capes you. Mario does not really have a way to reliably win neutral interactions and seal stocks quickly enough.
 

GatGoat

Smash Cadet
Joined
Mar 2, 2018
Messages
55
Location
The Ledge
The range and recovery are minimally better. However, Dr. Mario has the better projectile, better cape, chaingrabs, and kill confirms directly out of them.

Dr. Mario suffers from relatively poor range, subpar recovery capabilities, and isn't the most mobile. His frame data is decent, though. Too bad about having a bottom tier grab box.

Mario has a slightly better combo game too, as his hitboxes have less knockback compared to Dr. Mario. Only slightly, again.

All in all, Dr. Mario has a way to grab certain characters at 15-20% and chaingrab them into a kill. Megavitamins are better at controlling space, the whole point of a projectile, and you're gone if he capes you. Mario does not really have a way to reliably win neutral interactions and seal stocks quickly enough.
marios up b walljump makes his recovery much better than docs and its relatively easy to learn but ya ur right docs way better in general
 

CAUP

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Apr 21, 2014
Messages
467
Do literally any of you play melee.

Thoughts on the tier list:
Why is sheik below puff?
Ice Climbers are not better than peach and falcon.
Pichu is pretty darn high. I'm a pichu proponent but I wouldn't put him that high. I don't think it's reasonable to put pichu above Mewtwo or Game&Watch.
Why is Game&Watch below Roy?

Overall it's not bad. The top eight character order is pretty bad though.
 

Skeeter Mania

Smash Ace
Joined
Oct 23, 2015
Messages
959
Location
Highland Heights, KY
NNID
Ampharos2935
Do literally any of you play melee.

Thoughts on the tier list:
Why is sheik below puff?
Ice Climbers are not better than peach and falcon.
Pichu is pretty darn high. I'm a pichu proponent but I wouldn't put him that high. I don't think it's reasonable to put pichu above Mewtwo or Game&Watch.
Why is Game&Watch below Roy?

Overall it's not bad. The top eight character order is pretty bad though.
All your opinion, m8.
 

CAUP

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Apr 21, 2014
Messages
467
Of course. My opinion is just better than his lol. Like some of his choices, like placing pichu high, roy above game&watch, those aren't great and I don't think they make sense but I can understand where he's coming from. But ICs isn't better than peach. Like that's just wrong. Also it's hard to justify puff being below sheik. Puff just has a better matchup spread.
 
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GatGoat

Smash Cadet
Joined
Mar 2, 2018
Messages
55
Location
The Ledge
Do literally any of you play melee.

Thoughts on the tier list:
Why is sheik below puff?
Ice Climbers are not better than peach and falcon.
Pichu is pretty darn high. I'm a pichu proponent but I wouldn't put him that high. I don't think it's reasonable to put pichu above Mewtwo or Game&Watch.
Why is Game&Watch below Roy?

Overall it's not bad. The top eight character order is pretty bad though.
Ive mastered the peach matchup so i could have some bias against her viability. I think her recovery is her saving grace and that shes only a decent character after that. But other than that I believe youre truly misinformed, especially with the lower tier characters. I specialize in low tiers, and I can assure you that G&W is not as good as Roy. When both players are playing MINDLESSLY, sure. But like Ive said Roys got a sweet neutral game and kills way faster than G&W. And I would crush you in a Pichu Ditto. You have no idea how underrated Pichu is lol
 

GatGoat

Smash Cadet
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Mar 2, 2018
Messages
55
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If you cant wrap youre head around the fact that a kill confirm grab at 0% is better than your ****ty peach then idk what to tell you
 

GatGoat

Smash Cadet
Joined
Mar 2, 2018
Messages
55
Location
The Ledge
Of course. My opinion is just better than his lol. Like some of his choices, like placing pichu high, roy above game&watch, those aren't great and I don't think they make sense but I can understand where he's coming from. But ICs isn't better than peach. Like that's just wrong. Also it's hard to justify puff being below sheik. Puff just has a better matchup spread.
I could waveshine you in my sleep, begone peachmain pleb
 

CAUP

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Apr 21, 2014
Messages
467
If you're going to resort to arguing based on your skill and knowledge of the game and blah blah, I literally guarantee I'm better than you and more knowledgeable than you and can beat you in pichu dittos lol. I'm not some incredible player but I'm competent and PR ed in my state. I don't think new players realize this but it's really easy to tell when someone doesn't know what they're talking about when they talk about melee.

You didn't really make any arguments against what I said as well.
 

Adorable_Silly_Seiji

Smash Cadet
Joined
Mar 4, 2018
Messages
28
Do literally any of you play melee.

Thoughts on the tier list:
Why is sheik below puff?
Ice Climbers are not better than peach and falcon.
Pichu is pretty darn high. I'm a pichu proponent but I wouldn't put him that high. I don't think it's reasonable to put pichu above Mewtwo or Game&Watch.
Why is Game&Watch below Roy?

Overall it's not bad. The top eight character order is pretty bad though.
opinion
 

CAUP

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Apr 21, 2014
Messages
467
Literally any tier list is opinion but it should be backed up by facts. Let me give some reasons for why the changes I made are better.

The justification of puff being over sheik is pretty straightforward. Puff has one definite losing matchup, fox. All her other matchups are only theoretically losing (falco, marth) if she even loses. Sheik loses to ICs and fox. So sheik has more losing matchups. And sheik doesn't have a super good matchup in the top eight. But puff does, against ICs and especially Peach. So basically puff just has a better matchup spread.

ICs are not better than peach. We'll look at the matchup spread. So peach wins head to head against ICs. It's ICs worst matchup. ICs always have a hard loss to Puff. Peach also has a hard loss to puff. ICs have a good matchup against sheik. So far peach and puff are even (even though IC sheik isn't as good for ICs as Peach ICs is good for peach). ICs have hard loses to both fox and marth and at bare minimum does not beat falco and falcon. Where as peach loses to fox and marth not nearly as badly and has roughly even matchups against falco and falcon. If you wanted to take another approach where you look at frame data and neutral and punish, ICs still lose even though they have wobbling. Like I've never heard of an IC main putting ICs above peach so.

MewTwo and Game&Watch both have significantly better results than Pichu. Results aren't everything but still. Pichu always has some of the worst matchups of any character in the entire game. Pichu against Peach, Puff, and ICs are basically not winnable if the players are even sort of on the same skill level. Really the only good things pichu has as a character are his speed and combo game. His best strength is his ability to have relatively guaranteed combos on fast fallers. But even then they're relatively guaranteed, relative to other low tiers. I don't think it's terrible putting pichu over game&watch, like I said, just kind of iffy.

I do think there really isn't an argument for putting roy over game&watch. Roy basically just can't play floaties while game&watch has a much better matchup spread. He can combo spacies and zone out floaties. So yeah if you're ranking it based on ability to main the character, game&watch is definitely better. If not, then I still think game&watch has better high tier matchups than roy. Roy can only sort of combo fast fallers. He still gets wrecked by them. While Game&Watch has a somewhat decent matchup against puff. Again I don't think that's terrible.

Really what I take issue with the most is placing ICs above peach. Basically nothing supports that, theory, results, nothing.
 

Skeeter Mania

Smash Ace
Joined
Oct 23, 2015
Messages
959
Location
Highland Heights, KY
NNID
Ampharos2935
If you're going to resort to arguing based on your skill and knowledge of the game and blah blah, I literally guarantee I'm better than you and more knowledgeable than you and can beat you in pichu dittos lol. I'm not some incredible player but I'm competent and PR ed in my state. I don't think new players realize this but it's really easy to tell when someone doesn't know what they're talking about when they talk about melee.

You didn't really make any arguments against what I said as well.
You could just say that you don't agree and not be so pretentious.
 

CAUP

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Apr 21, 2014
Messages
467
Yeah I guess I can just get triggered.

And I mean I was only being as silly as he was.
 

Comet7

Smash Lord
Joined
Aug 2, 2013
Messages
1,027
Location
Somewhere over the rainbow
NNID
Comet7
we had better quality discussions years ago lmao

caup has probably (definitely) posted the most informed opinion.... you guys can do better and actually use information to make logical points back...
 

SwagGuy99

Smash Ace
Joined
Dec 28, 2016
Messages
709
https://smashboards.com/tiers/#1,10...,11,19,15.D#3,16,21,17,26.E#10,1.0,1,2,4,8,10

Opinions:
I'd say the top three are pretty equal with Fox a bit on top for obvious reasons (speed, comboing ability).
Sheik and Puff are about the same.
Peach and Falcon are also about the same.
Icies are at the top of B tier, where they belong as they have pretty bad matchups against anyone above them.
Samus and Luigi are about tied due to Samus's good matchups and Luigi's good results.
Yoshi and Doc fall below them due to an arguable worse matchup spread.
Mario is the lowest viable character due to being above average in many attributes and being able to hold his own against hihs clone, who is ranked above him.
This is followed by the characters with good strengths but very bad weaknesses. (C Tier)
D tier are characters who have been proven to be usable but nowhere near viable in the current meta.
E Tier is Ness who has so many weaknesses that his few strengths can't make up for, followed by Kirby and Bowser who are so weak against higher characters and have no way to deal with anything thrown at them.
 
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