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2013 NTSC Tier List -- Prepost

DoH

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Her punishes are more consistent and don't require sweet spots; say in Marth vs Peach if he doesn't kill her with a tipper or a spike he has to get her up to like 180 without a setup like dancing blade > utilt. She's better at dealing with campers and does better than Marth at some of his harder matchups (Sheik, Falco, Climbers). I feel as that the metagame has shifted towards more of a "camp until you can get a hit" that Marth has a harder and harder time as he can't just throw out moves or he'll get baited and punished. She's been outplacing and outperforming him for a while now. We haven't had a Marth player be dominant in ages, and usually he is only used for specific matchups or stages instead of a stand alone character. I think there's more to it than Peach players are better than Marth players; there's a reason he can't compete in this environment and his growth has really staled the past couple of years. Until PP had some success at Apex I felt like Marth was going extinct for a while.
 

SleepyK

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i am inclined to agree, marth hasn't had as much representation as peach. i still think marth is a better character, but not enough people are placing well with him
 

DoH

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I remember back at MLG Dallas Ken told us something like Marth was 6th best in the game and that he had a lot of weaknesses that people just hadn't exploited yet. No one believed him then lol
 
D

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that's because ken said that marth loses to roy and his validity went out the window.

marth's most exploitable facet is that his player-base sucks. i hardly consider that a fair evaluation of a character.

in the context of a tier list, the better character is just the most or least likely characters for you to lose to, so i would be comfortable putting peach over marth in that regard.
 

DoH

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I think he was mostly thinking about Marth's recovery; in the post-Armada/Hbox era people have gotten a lot more aggressive off stage and Marth is almost like luigi, where if you hit him and stall his horizontal momentum before he has the chance to get back in range to recover vertically he's in real trouble.

Also I feel like Marth's moves are slower compared to say Fox/Falco/Sheik/Puff/Falcon/Peach and he has to throw his out first to counter that, and the characters with faster mobility can weave out of his range and then back in to punish him.
 

Fortress | Sveet

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I don't think marth's recovery is overly exploitable, hes the best staller in the game. There are certain situations that he can be tricked into trading or forced into jumping, but every character has those things.

I also disagree that marth is forced to swing first. He has an amazing dash dance and wavedash, allowing him to outmaneuver opponents. I think marth is definitely more inclined/incentivized to strike first because of properties you mentioned, but he isn't necessarily limited by it.
 

DoH

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I feel like Fox/Falcon/Sheik/and Puff in the air have enough maneuverability to counter that and can weaving in and out and counter. Falco and Peach have projectiles to zone him out, though Falco's is better.

I feel like most characters can go out and trade with marth and make it back. Spacies would probably have trouble as well as falcon, but they have great ledge options + light shield edgehog.
 

SleepyK

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i need druggedfox to put the information into words that we discussed at a smashfest @-@

too bad he forgot to reapply.

i still think his stage control via movement and disjointed hitboxes is ridiculously strong - enough to make up for some of his shortcomings.

i feel that f his aerials are thrown out in a safe manner (sh delayed fair, etc) or thrown out on reaction instead of swatting to swat swat like lots of marths are wont to do then he's a pretty normalcool sexhaver
 

V3ctorMan

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Man, i've wanted (and still want) to contribute so much to these... but, I barely even know most of this stuff is even going on...><; I missed the time on this, but alas, all is well.. (also looks pretty good) ^^
 

Fortress | Sveet

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If you'd like, you can send me your vote at any time. I'm sure shortly after this MBR cleanup i'll be retallying votes
 
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