2013 NTSC Tier List -- Prepost

[Fortress | Sveet]

SS:
S:
A:
B: :ganonmelee:
C:
D: :gwmelee:
F:

Placing | | Name | Average Rank | 2010 Placing | Change
1 | | Fox | 1.44 | 1 | 0
2 | | Falco | 1.56 | 2 | 0
3 | |Sheik | 3.22 | 4 | +1
4 | | Jigglypuff | 4.33 | 3 | -1
5 | | Marth | 4.89 | 5 | 0
6 | | Peach | 5.89 | 6 | 0
7 | | C. Falcon | 7.11 | 7 | 0
8 | | Ice Climbers | 7.67 | 8 | 0
9 | | Dr. Mario | 9.11 | 9 | 0
10 | | Samus | 10.44 | 11 | +1
11 | :ganonmelee: | Ganondorf | 11.00 | 10 | -1
12 | | Pikachu | 11.44 | 12 | 0
13 | | Luigi | 13.25 | 14 | +1
14 | | Mario | 13.78 | 13 | -1
15 | | Donkey Kong | 15.22 | 15 | 0
16 | | Young Link | 15.56 | 17 | +1
17 | | Link | 16.89 | 16 | -1
18 | | Zelda | 18.67 | 18 | 0
19 | | Yoshi | 19.56 | 21 | +2
20 | | Roy | 19.78 | 19 | -1
21 | :gwmelee: | Game & Watch | 20.44 | 22 | +1
22 | | Mewtwo | 20.78 | 20 | -2
23 | | Ness | 23.22 | 23 | 0
24 | | Bowser | 24.22 | 24 | 0
25 | | Pichu | 25.00 | 26 | +1
26 | | Kirby | 25.11 | 25 | -1

SS Tier:
Fox
Falco

S Tier:
Sheik
Jigglypuff
Marth
Peach

A Tier:
Captain Falcon
Ice Climbers

B Tier:
Dr. Mario
Samus
Ganondorf
Pikachu
Luigi
Mario

C Tier:
Donkey Kong
Young Link
Link

D Tier:
Zelda
Yoshi
Roy
Game & Watch
Mewtwo

F Tier:
Ness
Bowser
Pichu
Kirby

Voters: Juggleguy, Marc, Nintendude1189, Pink Reaper, Skler, Strong Bad, Sveet, Umbreon, unknown522

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Purpose of this thread: Formatting and proof read before final post.

Also, tier divisions are picked arbitrarily. Post ideas for tier divisions and/or funny tier names

 

[Marc]

Based on the gaps between the characters that spread makes sense IMO. You could make a case for a few more breaks, but I don't think that's necessary. The main issue is still that only 9 people voted, but everyone had ample opportunity and the alternative is just never updating the tier list anymore. Kudos on seeing this through, Sveet.

I will say now that the MBR is not at all satisfactory anymore and an attempt will be made to turn that around pretty soon. The bare minimum this room should do is update the tier list and considering how tall an order that already is, the room might not see the end of 2013.

 

[Nintendude]

I think a problem is that people don't check the MBR often enough to realize that there's voting. I'm one of those offenders but I barely managed to get my vote in on time.

Anyways, the tier naming should start at S and not SS. SS just sounds silly and implies brokenness imo.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

I think thats a fine implication to make when it refers to fox/falco. Also, I dont want to go below F

Anyone have any ideas for silly things to do with this? for example, rearranging the C tier so its only YL, Link and Zelda and renaming it the triforce tier?


edit- and I could probably add more votes if people were giving them... I still have my tallies. I too wish more people were active in the MBR

 

[Cactuar]

Remember when the MBR was part of the Melee section of the forums instead of in Password Protected?

Pepperidge Farm remembers.

You know what I check when I go to smashboards? The Melee forums. Just the action of having to scroll to the bottom of the site, far away from where I want to be, bothers the **** out of me.

I've made it pretty clear that I don't care about tier lists. Mass voting by people who generally don't have familiarity with many of the matchups in the game doesn't really do anything. Most of us specialize in one character, some of us a few. At best, your opinion on the majority of those matchups is "at my level of play with that character, which is non-existent and based on casual matches, this is where I think they stand" or "I watched a video of X(ratatat) beating Y(metapod), so obviously that character is superior".

It will always be far more constructive for the individual character forums to put together 1x25 matchup charts, using input from the high and top level players of those characters where they have experience in those matchups, not just based on their friendly play. Those matchup charts should be averaged in the case of disagreement between character subforums, then some weighting for tournament popularity and BOOM. Tier list.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

"To me, Sveet will always love a bunch of dudes jerking each other off to put their semen on something official looking."

I don't see a problem with this

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

 

[Cactuar]

Edit: On a side note, I never really understood the appeal of adlibs until today.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

U made my day cactuar

But yeah, I get what you mean about 1x25, but that has problems of its own too (is a 65-35 matchup for peach the same as a 65-35 match-up for falcon?). I think the voting system is pretty good: at this point, I think we all have enough experience to at least rate the top 15 or so very accurately. Beyond that there is a lot of speculation, i agree, but giving it to the public character boards to determine won't remove the speculation.

 

[Cactuar]

The matchup vs Peach and vs Falcon is part of that "weighting based on tournament popularity" bit. It is obviously better to be super strong vs Fox than it is vs Pichu. We don't need to give it to the public boards to make it happen, we need to have the top players of every character back here and give actual validity to our tier lists.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

I think that would be a good first step, for sure. Im looking forward to what can be done now that control of the site is back.

While it doesn't have as many signers as I'd like, I think this list is pretty accurate. I don't think there would be many differences if/when what you talked about happened. I'm waiting to post this list until more people view it and give their $0.02, and i'd be willing to allow more voters (as i said, i still have my tallies so it wouldn't have to redo anything). For now, this is the method we should go with.

 

[Deleted member]

i really don't like this tier list. 9 votes is definitely not enough and the project just doesn't have the support to be posted as an "official" list, whatever that even means. it might as well be "these guys that don't have support" tier list. even then the votes are from forever ago.

we're just not organized enough to call this anything. we should drop it and get our **** together.

edit: marc, i'd like control of the user group again and to restructure it back to the way i had it before. it was more simplistic and much more effective.

and oh my god yes move it back to the melee forums. moving it to the bottom of the page was an awful idea.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Well I got your name on it, mow, so that has to count for something :D:D:D

 

[Strong Badam]

yeah, i don't think we should post this either. not enough people's lists :/

and agreed on moving this to melee discussion. password protected was an awful idea that could only hurt BR productivity.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Well I am going to post this, that isn't going to change. The list very much needs to be updated. This thread is here to allow last minute additions or modifications, and I've already said I will allow more votes. Everyone in the MBR has had (and still has, for the moment) ample opportunity to contribute to this project, so I see no reason for the MBR not to back this.

I am going to post this in a day or two unless something changes.

 

[Cactuar]

For one, it was never greenlighted as a project, as the plan has been decided for several months now to redo membership in a way that will produce more legitimate tier lists. We have just been waiting for the application mechanism to be fixed.

Its nothing against any of the current members, we just dont have the userbase we should.

 

[Marc]

Okay, I'm going to step in. Now that MLG is gone I can more directly do things for the room. Cactuar was and is the leader, if he doesn't okay a release, it's not getting out. We're going to restructure the room and membership very soon, so it's prudent to wait with this release IMO, but if anything respect what Cactuar is saying.

I'm open to moving the MBR back to the Melee section, though that doesn't excuse inactivity as people can just subscribe and not be lazy. But yeah, anyone who wouldn't want it moved back?

 

[Deleted member]

the tier list doesn't really need updated ever as it has no real impact on anything, it's just a source of discussion.

you definitely want at least 75% of the MBR to back any project for it to be a go.

 

[Cactuar]

For the record, I do like the initiative that Sveet took with trying to get votes together. The issue isn't that I didn't greenlight it to be started, but that I wouldn't be confident in giving the okay in releasing it due to the lack of participation by the current MBR.

Updating the tier list, even if only to publicly say that "hey, we've gone over the list and found that nothing should be different from last years" IS an important function, as it gives the appearance that discussion is still progressing.

 

[Deleted member]

Updating the tier list, even if only to publicly say that "hey, we've gone over the list and found that nothing should be different from last years" IS an important function, as it gives the appearance that discussion is still progressing.

i prefer honesty and transparency with the public to maintain a sense of validity in our actions. and honestly, we are simply not active. just imo

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Well I would say I have votes from at least 75% of the active MBR

I don't want to post this without the approval of the uppers, but I would be really disappointed if this was never given the OK. I remember the 2010 tier list had an semi-official tier list that was posted a few months before the official one was. We could release this one as something along the lines of that, and once the MBR is back in full swing another one could take its place.

In any case, we are in the 3rd year since the last list was posted. Something has to be released, even if its just to say "nothing has changed", like Cactuar said.

 

[Marc]

After the Smashboards liberation and a very big event (APEX) happening, I do think it makes sense to allow for some breathing room here while the MBR relaunches. If we can agree to still put out a tier list in Q1, there's no need to rush this one. Circumstances just changed as this project went on, I would assume the votes are still useful.

 

[Slhoka]

As Cactuar said, saying that nothing has changed is fine as long as well, we say it.

What would make an update interesting is the addition of explanations for the character rankings. Why is Ganondorf higher than Samus in the current "official" list ? The average vote explains the ranking, but not the reasoning behind it. That's what would be interesting. Brawl players did it pretty well in their last tier list release : http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=321738
In the event of an announcement that the tier list hasn't changed, giving a few explanations regarding some characters' ranking in the tier list and why they haven't overcome the character above them would improve the credibility of the list.

In any case, good job pushing this, Sveet, even though the list you gathered isn't ready for a release. Also, if you're wondering, I didn't vote because I don't think that my understanding of the high level metagame is sufficient to cast a reasonable vote. I think I already did that for the previous list and unless I'm asked to do it, I will not vote.

 

[Lovage]

should use S+, A+ and C- instead of SS, D and F

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

^ respectively?

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

I'm going to throw this out there: How do people feel about me sending out a mass PM requesting tier list votes? I feel like if things go well I could have a full list out in a week or two depending on how quickly people respond. The only issue would be that currently I can't PM to more than 5 people at once and its really annoying to PM ~50 people that way.

I would send this to all MBR members, but we may also want to wait until the fabled MBR restructure since membership may change for some people. Basically, tell me what you want done and I will do it.

 

[Cactuar]

FABLED RESTRUCTURE lol

 

[DoH]

What is the point of having a tier list anyway? I'd rather us focus on something that could result in a tangible benefit for the community

 

[SleepyK]

melee tier list - ice climbers are 8th edition

also i agree, moving the back room to the bottom of the page makes it woofypoops to remember to check

 

[hungrybox]

I still think jiggs is 7th

 

[HyugaRicdeau]

I'd have Puff at 5th but I think 7th is a legitimate opinion.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

It definitely is

 

[DoH]

I think Peach is better than Marth

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Sorry, that isn't a legitimate opinion.

MEN! Get the pitchforks!

 

[DoH]

 

[Cactuar]

Oh Rachel, you cray.

 

[Deleted member]

I think Peach is better than Marth

i think peach players are better than marth players.

marth himself is a ridiculous character and i can't see him being under peach.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Well peach is more consistent than marth, in the sense that peach can combo into a KO at nearly any percent (or out of shield) while at higher percents marth has to guess or trick his opponent in order to hit a KO move. At lower percents, marth is one of the most efficient killers around though, so it kinda balances out. Peach does have some other limitations (like movement speed and relative range). I think they are pretty close, and marth does better against spacies, so my vote is on marth being above, but I can see why some people would rank peach higher (especially considering tournament results).

 

[SleepyK]

i'd like to hear doh's opinion