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2012 NTSC Tier List

D

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Melee's online community is stuck in 5 years ago and has deteriorated on top of that, so the MBR probably needs to be more proactive in creating resources.
This pretty much. It's no easy feat to do the homework of gathering tournament data, but thankfully the community is restricted enough that this could be a realistic goal.

Again, I'd like to kill the entire project. We need a consistent rule set and to gather some data before this can be remotely accurate. We also need a method or definition or something that lets us define what "most winning" actually means.

I suggest something like any Top 8 in a 80+ person tournament. Arbitrary, but it's still a decent starting point.

Charles, Sheridan, Marc, come back and tell me if/how I'm being stupid here.

Looking at the MD tier list discussion, I'm really missing Tero in the MBR. Can we get him back in the downtime? He's really ****ing good at what he does.
 

Slhoka

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This pretty much. It's no easy feat to do the homework of gathering tournament data, but thankfully the community is restricted enough that this could be a realistic goal.

Again, I'd like to kill the entire project. We need a consistent rule set and to gather some data before this can be remotely accurate. We also need a method or definition or something that lets us define what "most winning" actually means.

I suggest something like any Top 8 in a 80+ person tournament. Arbitrary, but it's still a decent starting point.
I believe that the rulesets are consistent enough to provide the data for a tier list. Having a single unified ruleset at every tournament would be the best, but I don't think it's realistic, as in the end, TOs are the one deciding according to what they think.
As for the data... SSBPD looked like it could provide us what we need, but the project has been stuck for a while and I don't think we can rely on it to much. We had a project in the MBR, aiming at gathering data regarding character and stages used in tournaments. I guess we could see how we can start it again and get a solid base in order to build this tier list.
Also I do agree with pretty much everything Cactuar said.

Looking at the MD tier list discussion, I'm really missing Tero in the MBR. Can we get him back in the downtime? He's really ****ing good at what he does.
Actually, he sent his application not so long ago and should be in fairly soon if no one is against it.
 

Cia

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VaNz was online the whole time but didn't say anything xD

sry I tend to leave my applications open even when I am not home.

Also, i didn't even know i had access to MBR til just a few mins ago.

Will add to discussion once i've had time to read through everything.
 

KirbyKaze

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I don't see how Roy could be worse than 5th. He keeps cropping up in the bottom 4 of these lists but I seriously just don't see it.

He has much better ways to circumvent his crappy traits than a lot of these other characters (like Ness, Bowser, Kirby, Pichu). A bunch of these characters seriously have like... one decent gimmick and then their whole character is absolute garbage.

Bowser is awful once you get past how good Up+B OOS is. Yes, Up+B OOS requires you sort of play around his shield with some respect. And it's lame. But he seriously has no other useful shield options so to speak of. Projectiles in general crush this character unless he's on YS. His approach is completely non-existent and his moveset & normals are a complete joke. His movement is terrible except on YS. Maybe Bowser is secretly like low tier (as opposed to bottom tier) if we played YS only but bleh. Bowser sucks.

Ness has cool combos, sure, but he literally has nothing else going for him. He cannot play a pillar game with DJCs. The frames do not work out. It's slow and horrible. He can do some swing jump nonsense but the reach it provides is not enough for it to be really good for challenging a dash dance or similar. He has terrible crouch options (slow, low range, will never work, etc), the worst standard grab ever, and no real shield game so to speak of (I hear nair OOS is supposed to be okay sometimes?). His only reasonably good options for movement are WD back and DD but those are nerfed by his awful grab and lack of good normals. This leaves him with...? Combos. But how does he get them started? Also, his recovery.

Kirby is horrible. He has no range, no combo game, no priority, etc. His only good thing is that he can crouch and then do a basic 2-step combo if they whiff into him (assuming he gets an up tilt). His d-throw is horrible and shakeable for tons of characters at like 40% (they land on their feet before Kirby finishes and get away from the follow up for free). He doesn't have another combo throw at all. His only other decent trait is that his uair is really strong but that's not enough because he's still slow, no range, etc. His recovery is horrific.

Pichu just doesn't do enough with his hits, has no range, is frail when forced to tech, chain grabbable by tons of characters, etc. He's probably better than Kirby and Bowser though just because he can throw > move on a lot of relevant characters and he doesn't auto-lose to Fox's neutral B + Y button. He also has no CC game and a pretty crap OOS game.

Roy has a crappy OOS game but he can actually crouch into things. His good movement game also helps him circumvent his crappy OOS game. His high grab range (and range in general) gives some functionality to his good movement (DD and WD). His d-tilt is a good normal and unless the opponent true CCs it can knock people over at fairly low damage, which makes it good vs fake CC. His combos aren't as good but his tech chasing is solid and he has better edgeguarding than most of the above characters. He's also got the range & priority to stuff approaches without the opponent missing in front of him, because he has some decent normals, a good grab, and side-B.

I think he's better than GaW too, personally. But that one requires a lot more effort to argue because GaW has a lot of awkward death grabs, solid set combos, a strong crouch, a decent set of normals (which buffs his WD game), and some other shenanigans that Bowser, Kirby, Ness, and Pichu lack.

Also, since we're on the topic of really incomplete characters I might as well throw in Yoshi. I thought Yoshi's parry was some godlike technique for a while but it's just more defense on an already super defensive character. Yoshi's parry feels like it's just a sidestep that happens to combo you if you run into it. Yoshi still has no approach and no real offense so to speak of. He relies entirely on you running into him and him netting a really good counterattack from it. That's my impression of the character thus far. This is not a good strategy vs people who have ludicrous punishment games on you (especially off grab), or those with good dash dances. I don't know Yoshi as intimately as some of the people here, but I'm somewhat disillusioned with him (at least in NTSC) as of late. I seriously don't see how he gets in.
 
D

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not all wavedashes OOS are equal.

roy has a really good WD OOS, so i don't think his shield options are that bad.

i'm pretty sure bowser is the worst in the game now. he loses to dashgrab harder than any other character loses to any other universal strategy.

i think roy is a hair better than zelda on top of the list you mentioned, and mewtwo as well. i think i put him @ 19th or so.

why aren't you on aim?
 

Zivilyn Bane

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Agree with Nintendude.

Also agree a ton with Cactuar about how a tier list should be rated. I'm so tired of people crying about how Fox is number one. Had a big debate with some crew members about it before and their only arguement is "Fox is the best character by overall potential, and Falco is the best from human potential." Which doesn't make any sense at all, because who the hell is making a Perfect Control Tier list. It's the same reason why I was arguing that Falcon > Marth for a while, although my mind is being changed by that with recent strong performances from PewPewU, Dart, and Bob$. What I don't agree with from Cactuar is the merit of a new tier list, and his opinion on not ranking lower tiered characters. I think the merit for a new tier list is there, and it in all likelihood will be different enough to make the time worth it (after all, what else are we doing in the MBR?). Today's tournament results are quite a bit different than those of 2010. I also think it will breath life into a somewhat stale community. People can reference an outdated and old tier list as a sign of death for this game. Let's prove them wrong. As far as low tier characters go, there isn't enough info on them because we all know they suck. But I also think when it comes to tier lists, ESPECIALLY low tier, it's to be taken with a grain of salt. And at this point, the community knows that.

Agree again with KirbyKaze (seems like I ALWAYS agree with you on tier related questions) for the bottom end. I can't see Pichu being worse than Bowser or Kirby. He's fast, has a kill move, and good recovery. Those are three things Boswer and Kirby will never have. IMO Kirby is worst, followed by Bowser, then probably Pichu. Roy is super underplayed for a low tier but I think if we look at him maturely it apparent he has 19-20 potential.

I would like to ask a serious question about including European players on a panel for an NTSC tier list. My immediate attention was drawn to Leffen in the google doc and his ranking of Marth in 2nd, over Sheik in 3rd, and FALCO in 4th. To be honest, I'm not sure what happens in Europe, but are there ANY Americans that think this is even remotely accurate? Falco dominates the tournament scene, and Marth hasn't won a tournament since 2008. And it's not like it's JUST Mango. We've seen so many good Falco players since the last tier list, and he's STILL on the rise (watch Westballz). Fourth is completely inaccurate for Falco, and 2nd for Marth is not even remotely justified. Yes, I realize Little England is American and also ranked Marth in 2nd. I think things like that are huge reasons why Cactuar refrains from making a list. LE put Marth in second and has no evidence to back up that opinion.

So with that said, I'm wondering if there is any way to have some weight on this project myself.
 

Strong Badam

Super Vegeta
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I'd agree with you that Pichu has a good recovery if his horrific weight (55, lower than Jigglypuff/Game & Watch!) didn't cause him to just die outright to things long before when his recovery would allow him to recover. That said, I think we can all agree that Pichu/Kirby/Bowser are all in the bottom 3 for NTSC, and however different our opinions are we can just let the averaging of the votes do the work for us on that.
 
D

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zivilyn, leffen is just the forum ****** that got accepted into the MBR because MLG likes intellectual affirmative action. we can boot him at any time now, since MLG obviously doesn't care about smashboards anymore. i think the only reason leffen is still in the MBR is because cactuar enjoys watching people openly bash him and doesn't mind that the entire user group looks worse by association.

we can boot him at any time now.

any time now.

now.
 

SleepyK

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ness blows

i love roy

i play a good bit of roy and gnw and i'd put roy above game and watch slightly because of his overall better on-stage game (which is where the characters matter lololo offstage roy lololo offstage gnw).
he has better mixups and approaches from the neutral game than gnw does. Not by that much, mind you.

gnw ;w;

i would also probably place roy slightly above zelda. after cosmo and a few results from TheLake, she hasn't had any more appearances. iirc after their surprising performances people just camped zelda and she died anyway.

also, I was talking to Green Mario about mario's placing on the tier list, and he brought up that he doesn't understand why mario is above luigi and dk on the former list. He brought up a number of complaints and after weighing their tools, I was inclined to agree that mario was at least worse than luigi overall.

ALSO ICE COMBLETS THERE'S ****ING TWO OF THEM ****
is it time ;w;

are we gonna do something
 

unknown522

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Why DK is definitely worse than Mario at this game:

DK's two good things about him is that he can cargo super combo FFers, and his up-b going through moves, which gives him an oos game while facing backwards, and that's it. He has no moved that hit in front of him, especially in the air. His one good move outside of grab sometimes is b-air, which requires his back turned. He has nothing to give him movement when facing backwards too, since he cant'd dash, WD doesn't help, and he doesn't have super air mobility like jiggs.

DK is a big combo doll for majority of the cast, and his shield being abysmal, doesn't help either. DK's up-b having a very specific hitbox can sometimes be unsafe on hit vs most opponents because of the bad hitbox.

I understand that DK can kill faster in a lot of matchups, but it's way harder for him to land hits on most decent characters, whereas mario has reliable moves to hit in front of him along with better movement. He can legitimately anti-air characters that are in front/above him, without having to turn his back as his only option. Mario's combo game and combo setups are overall better than DK's, and he has many more usable moves. Mario having a projectile helps a bit vs anti-camp, or if he decides to try and camp people that don't have one.

Mario also has a real oos game since he can do aerials oos and hit in front/above/behind reliably. His WD oos is good.

Their recoveries both suck. It's hard to say who's better, though it's probably DK's by a bit. Still if either character makes it to the ledge, Mario has a usable ledge WD, that opponents have to respect, or they will get hit, whereas DK has very limited and unreliable options from the ledge.

Mario's overall matchups are much better than DK's as well (especially vs the top/high/mid tiers) on top of having the advantage head-to-head

Edit: oh yeah. Mario's edgeguarding and gimp game is way better than DK's. I guess the up-b loop on the edge with DK is pretty good, but Mario's moves and tools are way better for gimping. Especially with the cape.

:phone:
 
D

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i've always felt that mario was super slightly better than DK at this game, but i don't have a good reason why and my opinion isn't well-founded in anything logical so usually i avoid the argument.
 

SleepyK

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i'd have to ask for expert opinion to begin to refute your points, unknown. well said (but i still "feel" DK does better than mario)

I definitely think that Luigi does and is better than mario overall tho
 

Nintendude

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I'd have to agree that Mario is better than DK. unknown articulated it way better than I can, but basically what it boils down to imo is they both have some fundamental flaws that hold them back. However, DK's issues are far worse (especially bad defense and limited approach options).

Luigi is probably slightly better than Mario. His recovery and edgeguarding are little worse and his approaches are more limited, but he has a plethora of options for landing KO moves against both fastfallers and floaties.
 

SleepyK

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i think luigi's unique ground mobility and aerial game give him more than a slight advantage over mario on the stage

off the stage they're both pretty bad
 

unknown522

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Pretty much.

I think the fact that he can mis-fire makes his recovery a bit better than Mario's. Mario should never be able to recover (though it does happen sometimes).

:phone:
 

Nintendude

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Mario's recovery is underrated. Of course if they are coming in at low or mid height they are dead, but Mario recovering from high up can be really annoying to deal with. Luigi can also be really tricky with fireball shenanigans but he doesn't have as much of an advantage coming from above as Mario does.
 

SleepyK

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green mario is really good at recovering with mario. he's gone through the whole bag of tricks. NEVER DIES IN TEAMS WHAT A JERK


but mario's recovery is still bad
 

Little England

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Yes, I realize Little England is American and also ranked Marth in 2nd. I think things like that are huge reasons why Cactuar refrains from making a list. LE put Marth in second and has no evidence to back up that opinion.
I put Marth 2nd because I think he's that good. I based my list off of matchups and human potential. Results mean less to me because there are so many extraneous things to take into account.
 

Zivilyn Bane

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I put Marth 2nd because I think he's that good. I based my list off of matchups and human potential. Results mean less to me because there are so many extraneous things to take into account.
This is why the direction of the current tier list is wrong. For one, the project has already defined a tier list. If you're not basing your list off the same definition then it's going to make the entire thing pointless.

Proposed definition of a tier list

A tier list is a list of characters ranked best to worst in their likelihood to perform well in a tournament setting in the near future based on recent, relevant tournament results. We then separate characters at statistically significant gaps to be grouped with their relative equals, and those groupings are called "tiers". A tier list is, in essence, a "prediction" list as to how any given character will fare in a competitive setting. We naturally assume top level of play.
In other words, you aren't voting on the same thing as everybody else. It's like making a list of cars. My list is a list of fastest cards, and Sveets list is a list of coolest cars. The list will serve no purpose whatsoever because they are unrelated.

If the panelists aren't voting on the same thing then DON'T DO A NEW TIER LIST. If you are having trouble with just a few panelists refusing to vote according to the purposed definition, I would advise they not be included in the voting.
 

KirbyKaze

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Okay if we're doing this with results being a big factor then this is my revised list

Falco - Most representation among the tippy top level players
Fox - Most representation overall in bracket
Sheik - She seems to worm her way into the top circles a lot by more than one player and usually takes up a good chunk of the bracket
Puff - Does really well but only one representative
Peach - Does really well but only one representative and needs a second for Puff
Marth - Seems good at beating spacies and arbitrarily does well

Falcon - Gets top 8 a lot but never seems to get higher than that
ICs - See Falcon, but fewer examples and less frequent
Doc - See Falcon, except even fewer examples because it's really just Shroomed

Ganon / Pikachu
Samus
Luigi
Mario
DK
Link
Young Link
Roy
Zelda
Mewtwo
Yoshi

Insufficient data for other characters
 
D

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This is why the direction of the current tier list is wrong. For one, the project has already defined a tier list. If you're not basing your list off the same definition then it's going to make the entire thing pointless.



In other words, you aren't voting on the same thing as everybody else. It's like making a list of cars. My list is a list of fastest cards, and Sveets list is a list of coolest cars. The list will serve no purpose whatsoever because they are unrelated.

If the panelists aren't voting on the same thing then DON'T DO A NEW TIER LIST. If you are having trouble with just a few panelists refusing to vote according to the purposed definition, I would advise they not be included in the voting.
man you should read the fox vs falco thing from the skype chat. get a beer first or you might hurt yourself.
 

unknown522

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Well, since it's that way:

Falco
Fox
Sheik
Peach
Jiggs
Marth
Falcon

ICs
Doc
Ganon
Pikachu
Samus
Luigi

Mario
Young link
Link
DK

Roy
Mewtwo
Yoshi
Zelda
G&W

Pichu
Ness
Kirby
Bowser

:phone:
 

Little England

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@Zivilan Bane; that's a proposed definition, not a universal one. There was no unanimous decision to use that definition. Besides, if we want to just make a tier list based on results that can be done in 2 seconds and would not tell anybody anything that they don't already know.
 
D

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@Zivilan Bane; that's a proposed definition, not a universal one. There was no unanimous decision to use that definition. Besides, if we want to just make a tier list based on results that can be done in 2 seconds and would not tell anybody anything that they don't already know.
it's the way we've done them for years and years.

if you want to make a list based on something else, that's fine. it just won't be the tier list.

the definition for the tier list is not up for debate. only the tier list itself is up for debate.
 

Zivilyn Bane

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LE I definitely don't want you to think I'm discrediting your list or anything. Your list holds value just like any other and your opinions are valid. They just don't make sense if they're being tallied with lists based off other criteria.

But I do have to argue that basing the list of recent, relevant tournament results does have value and it does tell people something. You gotta remember thought that not everybody keeps track of tournament results. And tier lists are generally knowledge given to spectators, beginners, noobs, etc, not pros. There is no chance that M2K is going to look at a new tier list and do anything differently. But a beginner just might.
 

Zivilyn Bane

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LOL @ KK.

I just did a project where I took the top 8 finishers from every 80+ man tournament I could find since 1/1/11 (16 tournaments). I awarded points to characters based on standing. First place got 6 points, 2nd got 5, etc, 7th got 1. In the event of a tie, I awarded a "kicker" which was +1 point for each different player representative of that character that tallied at least one point. This is the results (point totals do not include the kicker)
1. Falco 87 points
2. Fox 82 points
3. Sheik 43 points
4. Falcon 35 points
5. Puff 35 points
6. Peach 27 points
7. Marth 15 points
8. Pikachu 13 points
9. Ice Climbers 11 points
10.Doc 11 points
11.Samus 10 points
12.Ganon 8 points
13.Zelda 5 points
14.GnW 2 points
15.Luigi 1 point

Obviously a little off to be considered an accurate tier list. But it does provide some insight as to what we have seen at large tournaments in recent memory.
 

Fortress | Sveet

▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀
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Jason I respect your tier list. The tier list is not fully results based, nor is it fully match-up based, nor is it fully opinion. It is a combination of them all as you perceive it. The tier list is a ranking of how well characters will do in tournament in the near future in the current metagame, in your opinion, with all facts and personal experiences considered. The word "results" in the definition is not meant to mean that the list directly takes from tournament results but instead means "all the stuff that has happened recently".

For example: Axe has advanced Young Link farther than anyone else in the world. Armada beats Hbox with YL but Axe does not. We should take the techniques and strategies Axe uses with YL to assess the character not simply take the results of Armada's victories with the character.

As we all should know by now, the results of close battles between evenly matched players are determined by willpower, patience, and other human factors -- not character issues.
 
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