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2012 NTSC Tier List


El Fuego
Mar 10, 2006
Philadephia, PA
Yeah... ruleset discussions are beyond the scope of this project...

You are also making a change that hasn't been used in any national scale tournament. Most of your discussions will be done using historic data, so that seems very unwise. I suggest just using the provided base ruleset.

Deleted member

You are also making a change that hasn't been used in any national scale tournament. Most of your discussions will be done using historic data, so that seems very unwise. I suggest just using the provided base ruleset.

so wheres the tier list discussion. i need to do my part to make sure that yoshi gets moved to the bottom 3.

Fortress | Sveet

Dec 21, 2005
Northern IL
This is coming to an end soon and we haven't had a skype meeting yet. This is my fault, i've had a wacky schedule. Normally I would like to give at least a week's notice, but the circumstances don't allow for it.

The meeting will be on Tuesday, July 17th at 19:00 CDT. We shall attempt to touch on all the main points of contention, including the ordering of the top 3-5, number of tiers, cuttoffs, ties, etc. Please add SveetX on skype in order to be invited

Attendance is mandatory and logs will be posted afterwards. If you are unable to make the meeting, please PM as soon as possible.

Deleted member

add me on skype @ UmbreonMow

I won't be able to get into the chat until later tonight since I'm on vacation, but I don't want to miss everything. I'll try to get back early, we're doing a field trip of sorts today.

Fortress | Sveet

Dec 21, 2005
Northern IL
I forgot to mention, but hopefully its not to late. All MBR members have an open ticket to this chat, not just invited panelists. If you would like to participate, please add me or post here before time.

Fortress | Sveet

Dec 21, 2005
Northern IL
Haha. Resched to sunday, same time. Last chance. If you want to be in the final voting panel, be there.

Fortress | Sveet

Dec 21, 2005
Northern IL
Discussion is starting in 45 minutes. I have added people in my contacts to the skype group. If you would like to participate please add me (SveetX) or PM me.

Fortress | Sveet

Dec 21, 2005
Northern IL
Participants: Sveet, Kage, Little England, Unknown522, KirbyKaze, Fly Amanita, Dr. PeePee, Pink Reaper, Umbreon, Strong Bad, Weon-X. Also VaNz was online the whole time but didn't say anything xD

[collapse=chat][19:44:41] Joe Fortman: OK TIME TO STARTT
[19:44:44] Umbreon: cause i'm a douche
[19:44:45] Ryan Ford: Lol. He loves to hear himself talk
[19:44:47] Joe Fortman: Before we start I want to say a couple things. First, lets try to keep things civil. This will be posted for the community to read. Second, Try to post full ideas each time you press enter. This will make sure people are responding to full ideas and not interrupting before you finish. Third, please try to keep on topic. When it seems like discussion has run out on a topic, I will continue on the agenda.
[19:44:49] Jeremy Westfahl: Do people not in the MBR who are participating know the criteria we're using?
[19:45:22] Umbreon: who do we have in this chat, by SWF alias?
[19:45:25] Ryan Ford: Good question
[19:45:32] Joe Fortman: Sveet
[19:45:46] Roustane Benzeguir: I'm not even sure what we are supposed to do exactly.
[19:45:59] Ryan Ford: Unknown522
[19:46:00] Strong Bad: Weon-x, KK, VanZ, Fly Amanita, Sveet, PP, Little England, Pink Reaper, Kage, Unknown, SwiftBass, Umbreon, Strong Bad and whoever nickkooy is
[19:46:08] Joe Fortman: nickkooy = rat
[19:46:12] Strong Bad: oh, k
[19:46:31] Pink Reaper: yo Unknown, you're not the Unknown from the MVC3 community right?
[19:46:39] Ryan Ford: Nope
[19:46:44] Strong Bad: that'd be unkn0wn
[19:46:47] Pink Reaper: cus i know you do play lol
[19:47:08] Ryan Ford: MvC3 is dumb
[19:47:12] Ryan Ford: Like brawl
[19:47:21] Roustane Benzeguir: no way..
[19:47:29] Roustane Benzeguir: comparing mvc to brawl, cmon..
[19:47:38] Ryan Ford: Hehe
[19:47:40] Pink Reaper: MVC3 is pretty stupid lol
[19:47:41] Strong Bad: yea that's pretty hrash
[19:47:47] Umbreon: i think falco da bess
[19:47:50] Umbreon: falco @ #1
[19:47:51] Ryan Ford: I'm more of an MvC2 guy
[19:47:56] Umbreon: 1 down 25 to go?
[19:47:59] Pink Reaper: I can agree with Falco at 1
[19:48:01] Strong Bad: yes, falco #1
[19:48:03] Ryan Ford: Anyways, melee discussion
[19:48:04] Roustane Benzeguir: Falco, fox, Sheik, Jiggs, Marth, Peach
[19:48:07] Joe Fortman: To get the ball rolling, lets talk about how many tiers there should be. There is the classic Top, High, Mid, Low, Bottom ordering; the SABCDEF... ordering; or Viable Semi-Viable Unviable ordering
[19:48:17] Strong Bad: SABCDEF
[19:48:25] Pink Reaper: I like 3 tiered
[19:48:27] Umbreon: SABCDEF
[19:48:29] Pink Reaper: Viable/Semi/Non
[19:48:42] Umbreon: 3 tiered makes more sense if you want to be non-traditional
[19:48:44] Ryan Ford: Top/high/mid/etc
[19:48:46] Roustane Benzeguir: SABCDEF
[19:48:46] Pink Reaper: if only because Non-Viable is so hard to actually rank
[19:49:03] Umbreon: we don't have to rank within tiers, technically tiers are supposed to be even
[19:49:17] Strong Bad: viable/semi/non is too pessimistic for my tastes
[19:49:20] Little England: ^wat umbreon said
[19:49:39] Roustane Benzeguir: Top tier, High tier, low tier, bottom tier? lol
[19:49:40] Strong Bad: would rather just say "this group is good, then this group is not as good, then this group is even worse" rather than "These characters can't do well in tourney"
[19:49:50] Little England: the grouping matters the most imo. the order within the group is not as important
[19:50:06] Little England: I agree with strongbad
[19:50:10] Ryan Ford: Hmmm
[19:50:12] Umbreon: i think we should either go SABCDEF or viable, semi-viable, non-viable
[19:50:13] Pink Reaper: You say that, but the community will spend weeks murdering each other to prove Zelda > m2
[19:50:21] Roustane Benzeguir: ..
[19:50:22] Umbreon: zelda is >> mewtwo
[19:50:24] Umbreon: >_>
[19:50:29] Strong Bad: yeah and we can ignore them because i hate stupid people
[19:50:39] Umbreon: < ignored
[19:50:41] Pink Reaper: look strong bad
[19:50:43] Umbreon: haha
[19:50:43] Ryan Ford: I think ordering is pretty important as well. At least with the top half
[19:50:44] Pink Reaper: everyone hates leffen
[19:50:46 | Edited 19:50:52] Strong Bad: kaostar trying to convince me that M2's shadowball shuts down donkey kong
[19:50:48] Pink Reaper: but that's not important right now
[19:50:53] Roustane Benzeguir: no they dont lol
[19:51:00] Roustane Benzeguir: they like to hate on leffen
[19:51:05] Umbreon: almost everyone hates leffen
[19:51:16] Pink Reaper: Mike Haggar hates leffen
[19:51:20] Umbreon: i hate leffen
[19:51:21] Strong Bad: Mike Swaggar
[19:51:21] Joe Fortman: OK
[19:51:22] Pink Reaper: when you're somehow worse than Mike Haggar
[19:51:23] Joe Fortman: well it seems
[19:51:23] Pink Reaper: you've lost
[19:51:34] Joe Fortman: that SABCD seems most popular
[19:51:40] Strong Bad: yea buddy
[19:51:43] Roustane Benzeguir: ya
[19:51:44] Umbreon: ok
[19:51:46] Ryan Ford: Yeah
[19:51:51] Ryan Ford: Next
[19:51:56] Pink Reaper: can i put forth a motion to leave D tier as "Unviable"?
[19:52:00] Joe Fortman: :p
[19:52:11] Strong Bad: oh, and after the tier list is made we should specify the low tier cutoff for tourneys
[19:52:20] Little England: thats fine
[19:52:21] Strong Bad: because i kind of want low tier tourneys to happen again
[19:52:36] Umbreon: can we replace "S Tier" with "Frame One Down Bs are Bull**** Tier"?
[19:52:47] Pink Reaper: Also we need an SS tier
[19:52:48] Joe Fortman: inb4 sb puts DK at 26th to skew the results so DK can be in low tier tourneys
[19:52:49] Strong Bad: idk does sheik's downb activate frame 1?
[19:52:49] Pink Reaper: for Meta Knight
[19:53:01] Umbreon: i don't think sheik is top tier tbh
[19:53:11] Joe Fortman: Ok thats next on the agenda so lets hit it
[19:53:13] Ryan Ford: Why?
[19:53:13] Joe Fortman: who is top tier
[19:53:18] Pink Reaper: FFS
[19:53:22] Pink Reaper: Falco Fox Shiek
[19:53:22] Umbreon: IMO top tier is falco fox jigglypuff
[19:53:25] Joe Fortman: is top tier fox/falco only or fox/falco/shiek/marth/puff/peach.... etc
[19:53:25] Strong Bad: falco fox sheik puff
[19:53:28] Roustane Benzeguir: Falco, Fox, Sheik, Jiggs
[19:53:41] david macdonald: Pikachu Kirby Fox
[19:53:54] Strong Bad: backflip upsmashes only
[19:53:54] Ryan Ford: Falco, fox, sheik, marth, jiggs
[19:53:55] Umbreon: i cut sheik from tops, she feels like the best "fair" character that is ultimately not as good as the unfair ones above her
[19:54:05] Pink Reaper: Sheik is hella unfair
[19:54:10] Strong Bad: sheik is very fair
[19:54:11] Roustane Benzeguir: sheik is amazing
[19:54:13] Strong Bad: as in, she uses fair a lot.
[19:54:14] Umbreon: i put the first gap in my personal list between jigglypuff and sheik
[19:54:21] Little England: Out of curiousity, are you guys ranking based on results or MUs
[19:54:23] Ryan Ford: Man. Play David for a week
[19:54:32] david macdonald: I'm not good with Sheik
[19:54:33] Ryan Ford: See how unfair sheik is
[19:54:35] Pink Reaper: I find it odd that people still are on this "jiggs da bess" thing
[19:54:39] Umbreon: yeah sheik is ****ing phenominal, she just doesn't ignore the rules of the game like fox falco and jigglypuff do
[19:54:57] Roustane Benzeguir: shes not the best but she can put it in work very often, her punish game is amazing
[19:55:01] Strong Bad: opinion-based tier list, so people can use their own criteria for ranking @ Little England
[19:55:05] Umbreon: nothing sheik has bypasses the rules that other characters have to play by
[19:55:05] Ryan Ford: But has an infinite combo in the 2 best characters...
[19:55:17] Strong Bad: just try not to rank a character based on how you like their alt colors and we're fine
[19:55:30] Little England: LOL
[19:55:35] Pink Reaper: Green Falco > Blue Falco >>>>>> Red Falco
[19:55:41] Roustane Benzeguir: Green everything > the rest
[19:55:43] Strong Bad: all falcos are gay
[19:55:47] Joe Fortman: green.
[19:55:53] Little England: leffen is the only one that agrees with me when I say marth is 2nd
[19:55:57] Pink Reaper: Purple Ganon > Green ganon
[19:56:02] Roustane Benzeguir: (Joe let's green greens friendlies in Chicago, ;))
[19:56:04] Little England: Fox Marth Falco Sheik Puff
[19:56:05] Jeremy Westfahl: Before I started going neutral everything, I went mostly green
[19:56:07] Joe Fortman: ;)
[19:56:19] Ryan Ford: ...
[19:56:27] Strong Bad: imo marth is hurt the most by metagame advancements. the metagame has advanced to where "You move at the first instant you can" and that ****s on characers whose hitboxes don't linger at all.
[19:56:27] Pink Reaper: I will never agree with Marth > Falco lol
[19:56:30] Umbreon: anyway i guesss i can get behind sheik in top tier if you think vanish stall is broken
[19:56:43] Joe Fortman: so its fairly unanomous that fox and falco are both top tier
[19:56:50] Strong Bad: punishing marth was a lot harder before people started getting good at
[19:56:52] Strong Bad: that
[19:56:56] Little England: I also wanted to bring up including sheik/zelda as one character and separate
[19:57:05] Strong Bad: this ain't barwl
[19:57:12] Umbreon: they're clearly separate IMO
[19:57:13] Pink Reaper: Sheik/Zelda doesnt happen
[19:57:15] Roustane Benzeguir: its very good and and I mean her edgeguards are amazing vs any character as well.. on stage if shes able to stay away with good space, she had good advantage vs any character.
[19:57:16] Pink Reaper: unless you want to save needles
[19:57:17] Ryan Ford: I think Shino stall sucks
[19:57:20] Strong Bad: cosmo doesn't play anymore also
[19:57:23] Strong Bad: so not relevant
[19:57:24] Umbreon: i play both and even i only pick one for the match
[19:57:48] Umbreon: i think shino stall is good but limited and not broken, thus i can't put sheik in top tier, personally
[19:57:54] Roustane Benzeguir: though sheik is kinda of stuck in shield almost like Falcon/Ganon.
[19:58:04] Umbreon: i think sheik is the tippy top of A tier though, with peach and marth
[19:58:14] Little England: I say it because, when you think about it Zelda/Sheik isssss one character. And Zelda>ICs which may have an effect on people's opinions.
[19:58:19] david macdonald: sheik stuck in shield...?
[19:58:24] Umbreon: zelda ICs is even
[19:58:29] Roustane Benzeguir: She doesnt have much options OOS
[19:58:29] Jeremy Westfahl: Sheik's faster jump-start helps a lot OoS
[19:58:34] david macdonald: she has nair and WD into fast moves
[19:58:40] david macdonald: plus standard options and a gigantic shield grab
[19:58:44] david macdonald: what else do i need
[19:58:45] Roustane Benzeguir: Ya but thats why its predictable
[19:58:45] *** Joe Fortman added captain BJ ***
[19:58:52] Roustane Benzeguir: her limited options OOS can get punished
[19:58:53] Pink Reaper: predictable isnt necissarily bad
[19:58:54] Little England: its not that big a deal to me. Cosmo thought the matchup was 70-30 when I asked him lol
[19:58:56] Pink Reaper: Jiggs will Bair
[19:59:01] Pink Reaper: we can all predict that correct?
[19:59:05] Ryan Ford: What? Sheik has one of the best oos games aside from the spacies
[19:59:08] Umbreon: cosmo doesn't live with chudat
[19:59:11] Umbreon: >_>
[19:59:20] david macdonald: personally i think peach is better oos than sheik
[19:59:26] Roustane Benzeguir: ya
[19:59:29] Roustane Benzeguir: i also think that
[19:59:31] Umbreon: why KK?
[19:59:33] david macdonald: since half of armada's style is shielding
[19:59:33] Jeremy Westfahl: Cosmo bases his opinion on Zelda vs. ICs on his experience with Trail probably
[19:59:38] Jeremy Westfahl: and Trail's style is probably awful against Zelda
[19:59:46] Umbreon: trail is awful
[19:59:48] captain BJ: this is lame and everyone here should be ashamed
[19:59:53] captain BJ: BYE
[19:59:57] Pink Reaper: Says Captain BJ
[19:59:58] Little England: thats quite possible
[20:00:00] Umbreon: lol s2j
[20:00:02] Little England: I'd like to see chu vs cosmo
[20:00:10] Roustane Benzeguir: is cosmo going to FC?
[20:00:16] Joe Fortman: no @ kage
[20:00:18] Umbreon: i think chu would win
[20:00:22] Little England: but when you think about the MU you can kinda see why zelda might win it
[20:00:23] Roustane Benzeguir: tsk.. i want to play him already!
[20:00:23] Umbreon: he has soooo much exp vs me
[20:00:29] Little England: ya I think he would
[20:00:37] Umbreon: i beat chu like 60-40
[20:00:39] Pink Reaper: Btw Max
[20:00:43] Umbreon: hmm
[20:00:43] Pink Reaper: if you're still in Fl
[20:00:46] Umbreon: yeah
[20:00:50] Pink Reaper: that means you DIDNT just up and leave Chu there
[20:00:52] Ryan Ford: Wow chat is pandemonium
[20:00:57] Pink Reaper: which i still think you shoul
[20:00:59] Strong Bad: also I have bad news
[20:01:00] Pink Reaper: *should
[20:01:04] Little England: ya we need to get back on track XD
[20:01:05] Roustane Benzeguir: well anyway, I still think sheik is top tier
[20:01:06] Strong Bad: AnDaLe has apparently moved to my area
[20:01:06 | Edited 20:01:31] Joe Fortman: Try to post full ideas each time you press enter. This will make sure people are responding to full ideas and not interrupting before you finish
[20:01:35] Pink Reaper: Where does everyone have Peach?
[20:01:42] Roustane Benzeguir: high tier
[20:01:42] Strong Bad: yeah I don't think we should be putting gaps in our tier lists, the tier list has always separated tiers based on the differences in average points
[20:01:43] david macdonald: 6
[20:01:45] Umbreon: 5th
[20:01:49] Joe Fortman: 6th
[20:01:54] Strong Bad: peach is 6th on my list
[20:01:55] Roustane Benzeguir: 6th
[20:01:57] Umbreon: 2nd in A tier, behind sheik but ahead of marth
[20:01:59] Pink Reaper: 6th on mine
[20:02:03] Pink Reaper: behind Marth/Jiggs
[20:02:08] Little England: 6
[20:02:09] Roustane Benzeguir: i think marths can do better in general
[20:02:21] Little England: I think marth is fantastic
[20:02:21] Joe Fortman: i agree kage
[20:02:23] Strong Bad: i still think marth is better.
[20:02:23] Umbreon: i do too, but right now the marth players are terrible
[20:02:26] Joe Fortman: marth is very underrated atm
[20:02:31] Ryan Ford: 6th
[20:02:35] Strong Bad: lol how is that relevant to how good the character is umbreon
[20:02:47] Roustane Benzeguir: yes he is definitely, you see so many miss opportunities from marths atm, in any tournament.. =/
[20:02:59] Strong Bad: marth players suck. conclusion: marth players suck, not marth
[20:03:04] Jeremy Westfahl: Marth players being bad negatively impacts the popular opinion of the character if nothing else
[20:03:09] Umbreon: a tier list measures the relative goodness of the character, if the character is represented poorly, the character is not as good for tournaments
[20:03:19] Ryan Ford: ....
[20:03:24] Roustane Benzeguir: ya but there was ken and m2k.. at least
[20:03:32] Pink Reaper: that's contradictory in and of itself max
[20:03:34] Umbreon: they're definitely associated, they're not independent
[20:03:38] captain BJ: *** yall
[20:03:42] Ryan Ford: Kage it's a trap
[20:03:43] david macdonald: i love s2j
[20:03:48] *** Joe Fortman removed captain BJ from this conversation. ***
[20:03:51] Little England: hurray for johnny =D
[20:03:57] Strong Bad: i'd rather just do a character rankings list based on SSBPD if you want to go into that; i do not base my opinion on how well players are doing with their character and I don't think many do.
[20:04:00] Little England: wtf sveet
[20:04:02] Umbreon: i could see marth over peach, i won't fight you guys on it
[20:04:19] Umbreon: but atm peach is definitely doing better, and its not just armada
[20:04:33] Pink Reaper: I cant actually name any other peaches besides armada who are winning
[20:04:35] Strong Bad: i will agree that peach players are performing better than marth players, that fact is obvious.
[20:04:36] Pink Reaper: except MacD
[20:04:46] Strong Bad: macd places 9th at every tourney
[20:04:48] Umbreon: this is like 3 years ago when everyone said fox is better than falco, it's just that all the fox players suck. ALL OF THEM
[20:04:54] Strong Bad: you can't say the same for any marth player.
[20:04:54] Pink Reaper: no
[20:04:59] Pink Reaper: Falcomist places 9th at every tourney
[20:05:04] Strong Bad: every national*
[20:05:09] david macdonald: I wish Vwins was better
[20:05:16] Strong Bad: macd gets 9th at like gen2 and apex iirc
[20:05:20] Umbreon: vwins was really fun to play lol
[20:05:39] Pink Reaper: I still think Fox is a better character, just it's not possible for players to stay at the conistant level to keep him first
[20:06:03] Umbreon: i think fox's useful tech skill is actually easier than falcos, i don't think consistency is fox's problem
[20:06:09] Strong Bad: fox is ***ing hard, i used fox for an hr against darkrain and my hands hurt afterward
[20:06:14] Little England: Everyone looks at player vs player vs player rather than concrete character vs character info. I think the point should be to avoid variation, but how can that be done by looking at player performance. :(
[20:06:19] Strong Bad: use falco for 3, no problems
[20:06:32] Roustane Benzeguir: Umbreon, you said Marth's underperformed so he should be ranked lower, but then why didnt you rank Fox lower since they dont do well either?
[20:06:43] Umbreon: fox does really well in california
[20:06:53] Umbreon: there's like 3 foxes in the top 5 all the time
[20:07:07] Pink Reaper: and Doc constantly in the top 3
[20:07:12] Pink Reaper: therefore Doc > Fox
[20:07:15] Umbreon: well i think doc is underrated too
[20:07:22] Umbreon: but we're not there yet
[20:07:32] Pink Reaper: Ca is an amazing scene but you cant weight it that heavily
[20:07:40] Umbreon: why not
[20:07:43] Umbreon: CA has tournaments
[20:07:50] Umbreon: lots of them
[20:07:57] Roustane Benzeguir: I dont think its fair to rank it like that, you should rank the world
[20:08:08] Pink Reaper: except canada
[20:08:13] Pink Reaper: canada doesnt count
[20:08:14] Umbreon: fox does well in new england too
[20:08:14] Little England: you should rank characters not players
[20:08:25] Roustane Benzeguir: im everywhere not just canada.
[20:08:33] Umbreon: characters ~= players if you think about it
[20:08:39] Roustane Benzeguir: almost
[20:08:45] Umbreon: not completely but they're def related
[20:08:56] Umbreon: they're at least NOT independent variables
[20:09:03] Little England: true
[20:09:14] Roustane Benzeguir: well i could say my nose represents Ganondorf but..
[20:09:27] Ryan Ford: Lol
[20:09:37] Umbreon: fox does really, really well overall, we just have falco dittos in nationals finals so i think falco is slightly better than fox
[20:10:08] Joe Fortman: umbreon, in a perfectly saturated community, you can look at players ~= characters, but the melee scene is far from that.
[20:10:14] Strong Bad: ^
[20:10:26] Umbreon: define perfectly saturated, what do you mean
[20:10:32] Strong Bad: anyway i'd much rather argue that falco is better than fox because of his character qualities not because pp and mango always fight each other in finals
[20:10:38] Little England: the way I see it is like this. if we need evidence of a certain strategy or something for a MU then it's 100% appropriate to look at players/videos. But we can't rank characters based on results.
[20:10:57] david macdonald: Fox is very squishy
[20:10:59] Pink Reaper: Results do matter
[20:11:17] Umbreon: if you argue purely on character qualities and not who wins then you've missed the point of the tier list, the point of the tier list is to rank characters from most winningest to least winningest
[20:11:19] david macdonald: Fox is squishier than Falco vs combo damage
[20:11:24] Umbreon: falco wins more than fox
[20:11:25] Pink Reaper: I remember from the last tier list discussion when talking about Samus people would say it was "only HugS" but if Hugo can do it it should be repeatable by others
[20:11:34 | Edited 20:11:39] Strong Bad: that's your definition of a tier list
[20:11:36] Pink Reaper: whether or not it is repeated is another thing
[20:11:43] Umbreon: no, that's THE definition of a tier list
[20:11:50] Umbreon: if you got something else, you're doing it wrong
[20:12:03] david macdonald: Falco should be squishier than Fox in recovery but he has some stuff that deters people from taking certain liberties they take vs Fox
[20:12:17] david macdonald: And people are generally better at comboing than they are at edgeguarding
[20:12:17] Strong Bad: frame 5 spike
[20:12:52] Pink Reaper: Edgeguarding Spacies is the easiest thing in this game >_>
[20:13:00] Pink Reaper: no one should be bad at it
[20:13:07] Roustane Benzeguir: that depends who you use
[20:13:08] david macdonald: I think Sheik is much easier to edgeguard
[20:13:16] Joe Fortman: ^
[20:13:17] david macdonald: But that might just be my inner character bias talking
[20:13:27] Strong Bad: i disagree, edgeguarding spacies at times requires reads while most other characters require patience and basic edgeguarding loops
[20:13:48] Roustane Benzeguir: covering options is dependant of character of course, sometimes you'd need more prediction to make the correct call
[20:13:50] Umbreon: anyway if we're going to say that character attributes are all that matters, we can go back to putting bowser @ 3rd, i don't think anyone wants to see that
[20:14:11] Strong Bad: provided you're fighting a good spacie and not that stupid hold toward the stage and mash jump ****
[20:14:12] Joe Fortman: umbreon, i've always disagreed with that bowser @ #3 in "theory"
[20:14:18] Joe Fortman: theres no evidence
[20:14:25] Kevin Nanney: realistic character attributes, not perfect play ones, would be what we should use if we decide to use character attributes
[20:14:29] Umbreon: i disagree with bowser @ 3rd because he doesn't win tournaments
[20:14:31] Pink Reaper: let's not get into the TAS Tier List please
[20:14:38] Joe Fortman: [20:14] Kevin Nanney:

<<< realistic character attributes, not perfect play ones, would be what we should use if we decide to use character attributes
[20:14:42] Pink Reaper: im with kevin
[20:14:44] Ryan Ford: Yeah, please
[20:14:45] Strong Bad: umbreon your hyperbole e.g. bowser is obnoxious. i'm using realistic character qualities that are relevant in tournament.
[20:14:49] Little England: A tier list should be based on the potential ability of a character given current human error
[20:14:59] Strong Bad: people like john! bring that **** up, not you, cmon now
[20:15:02] Little England: wat pp said
[20:15:08] Umbreon: i guess what i'm trying to say is that we can't base our tier list on perceived value of character attributes, any idiot can do that and it's just a waste of our time
[20:15:09] Pink Reaper: ****ing john!
[20:15:32] Pink Reaper: but any idiot can also look at results and say X wins therefore X is the best
[20:15:45] Umbreon: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=286224
[20:15:46] Pink Reaper: why did we never put Jiggs @ 1 then?
[20:15:56] Umbreon: A tier list is a list of characters ranked best to worst in their likelihood to perform well in a tournament setting in the near future based on recent, relevant tournament results. We then separate characters at statistically significant gaps to be grouped with their relative equals, and those groupings are called "tiers". A tier list is, in essence, a "prediction" list as to how any given character will fare in a competitive setting. We naturally assume top level of play.
[20:16:13] Strong Bad: yea u wrote that, i disagree
[20:16:24] Umbreon: this is what the MBR has used for its tier lists since 2003
[20:16:30] Joe Fortman: Sorry strongbad, that is what we are using for this tier list
[20:16:35] Pink Reaper: Mow you're definition of a list is "How likely will PP be in grand finals"
[20:16:36] Joe Fortman: check the first post
[20:16:37] Umbreon: thats what a tier list is
[20:16:43] Umbreon: the definition is not negotiable
[20:16:58] Strong Bad: k then sveet
[20:17:01] Strong Bad: next topic
[20:17:02] Jeremy Westfahl: Arguing about definitions is silly.
[20:17:05] Umbreon: we have some excellent players that bias our list, we should accept the data, not reject it
[20:17:31] Pink Reaper: soo we all agree then, Peach is 6th?
[20:17:36] Roustane Benzeguir: yes
[20:17:40] Umbreon: peach can be 6th yes
[20:17:46] Strong Bad: peach is either 5th or 6th on just about everyone's list
[20:18:01] Joe Fortman: [20:15] Umbreon:

<<< i guess what i'm trying to say is that we can't base our tier list on perceived value of character attributes, any idiot can do that and it's just a waste of our timeI disagree. It takes an expertise to understand the subtle characteristics of each character and rank the characters by these traits
[20:18:02] Umbreon: i think i was the only person to put her @ 5th, but i'm ok with 6th also
[20:18:24] Umbreon: frankly I think jihn! can rank character attributes better than any of us can
[20:18:30] Umbreon: john!
[20:18:42] Strong Bad: that's fairly insulting
[20:18:47] Kevin Nanney: a couple ways to handle this predicament umbreon mentioned:

1. base a list solely off of attributes. this is most subjective and hardest to agree upon.

2. combine attritbutes+results. this allows for some leeway to be made in discussions and agreements to be made regarding character placement. still allows for opinions outside of typical results to be weighed fairly.

3. attributes+results+potential. adding in a little above current level human play can also be used at times or overall if people wish to project what the metagame will be like later. That is a tricky argument to use because no one can know how a metagame will turn out.

theres also results of course.

everyone doesnt necessarily have to agree but if they did it would make discussion a LOT easier
[20:19:21] Umbreon: well I vote for #2
[20:19:24] Little England: #2
[20:19:35] Ryan Ford: 2
[20:19:46] Pink Reaper: 2 is the only choice imo
[20:19:58] Strong Bad: yea 3 just seems useless
[20:20:23] Roustane Benzeguir: 2 i guess
[20:20:27] Joe Fortman: #3, but with 1 being the most important, 2 next, and 3rd slightly important (but hard to bring to the table because of obvious reasons)
[20:20:34] Umbreon: The Tier List: Peach is 6th
[20:20:47] Jeremy Westfahl: Maybe I missed something, but I don't see why we are voting on how we're determining this list when we already had a definition for the list
[20:21:03] Ryan Ford: Good point
[20:21:06] Little England: I think people are interpreting the definition differently
[20:21:07] Joe Fortman: Jeremy, the definition is open to interpretation
[20:21:22] Umbreon: it's really not, thats what a tier list is
[20:21:32] Pink Reaper: we have a lot of definitions for the list, and few are in actual agreement
[20:21:39] Umbreon: you can't change a definition, you're just making it something else
[20:21:41] Pink Reaper: except mow, mow fully agrees with his definition
[20:21:46] Joe Fortman: haha
[20:21:47] Strong Bad: kind of why we do opinion-based
[20:21:58] Strong Bad: you have no guarantee that the panelists agree with the definition and base their list on it
[20:22:04] Pink Reaper: let's get back to the actual list
[20:22:04] Strong Bad: but we do it anyway
[20:22:09] Pink Reaper: like
[20:22:14] Pink Reaper: the middle tiers
[20:22:23] Umbreon: a tier list rates relative goodness, we only have 1 type of data to help us do it >_>
[20:22:33] Roustane Benzeguir: ICs, Doc, Ganon, Samus
[20:22:42] Pink Reaper: where's falcon?
[20:22:48] Strong Bad: ICs, Falcon, Doc, Ganon, Samus, Pikachu.
[20:22:48] Roustane Benzeguir: whoops
[20:22:52] Strong Bad: that's the order on my list
[20:23:05] Roustane Benzeguir: Falcon, ICs, Doc, Ganon, Samus
[20:23:07] Pink Reaper: Falcon, Doc, ICs, Ganon, Samus, Pika
[20:23:10] Joe Fortman: Ok lets talk about ICs vs Falcon
[20:23:10] Strong Bad: tier list assumes wobbling legal AFAIK, put ICs under Falcon if banned.
[20:23:14] Joe Fortman: not the match-up, but ordering
[20:23:16] Umbreon: ICs, Falcon, Doc, Ganon, Samus, Pikachu
[20:23:17] Roustane Benzeguir: Ganon, Pika, Samus**
[20:24:01] Strong Bad: imo Falcon's competitive playstyle requires reads and his recovery is more exploitable
[20:24:06] Strong Bad: in comparison to ICs
[20:24:11] Strong Bad: making him a less consistent tournament threat
[20:24:23] Umbreon: i would put ICs under falcon if wobbling was banned, but i think we should assume for now that it's not banned
[20:24:34] Roustane Benzeguir: Falcon is fast and he can kill really fast off one or 2 reads though
[20:24:42] Ryan Ford: Ok wobbling legal
[20:24:53] Little England: no reason to ban wobbling at allllllllllllll
[20:24:59] Strong Bad: yes kage, we all know falcon is fast
[20:24:59] Umbreon: falcon currently struggles with fox falco jigglypuff and sheik, that's not where you want to be in our meta
[20:25:04] Pink Reaper: He doesnt even need real reads for a lot of it, He can just do Throw->knee on a lot of characters
[20:25:18] Umbreon: ICs are better against fox falco somewhat and definitely better against jigglypuff and sheik
[20:25:23] Strong Bad: specifically against characters like fox falco sheik, pink reaper. you know the ones that are 75% of the bracket.
[20:25:42] Roustane Benzeguir: Ya but ICs suffers more from mid tier characters and also peach
[20:25:50] Pink Reaper: ICs lose to stage CPing harder than any other character imo
[20:25:55] Umbreon: definitely, falcon bodies mid-tiers
[20:25:59] Strong Bad: yeah
[20:26:05] Joe Fortman: ICs is worse vs fox than falcon is
[20:26:06] Ryan Ford: Ok I think ICs are At least 5th with wobbling legal
[20:26:18] Umbreon: I'd agree @ the CP thing but all of the stages that screw them over are banned pretty much now
[20:26:22] Strong Bad: although outside of like, zelda (??) i don't see ICs having issues with mid tier
[20:26:23] Umbreon: like brinstar
[20:26:24] Joe Fortman: and ICs is worse against marth and peach than falcon
[20:26:32] Roustane Benzeguir: oh yes
[20:26:35] Strong Bad: oh yeah, that's something else i wanted to bring up
[20:26:40] Umbreon: and falcon is better vs himself
[20:26:44] Joe Fortman: haha
[20:26:54] Pink Reaper: But ICs lose a ton of momentum the second a stage with platforms is chosen
[20:27:05] Strong Bad: does this tier list assume that weird ruleset where FD isn't a starter, or the MBR ruleset that every tourney uses?
[20:27:08] Jeremy Westfahl: I don't know if ICs are worse against Marth than Falcon is, not that I think either match-up strays far from even
[20:27:11] Roustane Benzeguir: even with wobbling, im personally not scared to fight one
[20:27:19] Umbreon: with wobbling legal, CPs mostly banned, and sheik fox falco jigglypuff being more important than marth peach falcon, i put ICs over falcon
[20:27:51] Joe Fortman: [20:27] Strong Bad:

<<< does this tier list assume that weird ruleset where FD isn't a starter, or the MBR ruleset that every tourney uses?I don't think this list should be done with the "assume FD is played every set" ruleset
[20:28:06] Strong Bad: why? that's the ruleset that every relevant tourney uses
[20:28:09] Joe Fortman: no its not.
[20:28:26] Joe Fortman: its actually a very outside of the box rulset
[20:28:30] Pink Reaper: he's saying FD is legal not FD is the first stage Sveet
[20:28:35] Joe Fortman: that only a handful of tourneys have used
[20:28:50] Umbreon: i see FD banned a lotttttt
[20:28:51] Joe Fortman: im saying the ruleset where FD is legal and can't be banned
[20:29:00] Joe Fortman: should not be used for this list
[20:29:05] Roustane Benzeguir: only in best of 5s though
[20:29:06] Umbreon: i agree with sveet
[20:29:10] Strong Bad: plus not every tourney does bo5s for all bracket
[20:29:19] Strong Bad: in fact, very few
[20:29:20] Roustane Benzeguir: its rare i see tourneys all best of 5s in bracket
[20:29:35] Joe Fortman: so you agree with me?
[20:29:41] Umbreon: i agree with you yes
[20:30:24] Strong Bad: it's particularly weird to me that the mbr tier list assumes a ruleset different from the mbr recommended ruleset, but if that's the case then i'll adjust my list accordingly
[20:30:40] Umbreon: the rule set needs updated too probably
[20:30:50] Pink Reaper: we can do that after the tier list
[20:31:02] Umbreon: i still see bans used a lot though
[20:31:08] Joe Fortman: the funny thing is
[20:31:14] Umbreon: the CP system is hugely important to the tier list for obvious reasons
[20:31:17] Roustane Benzeguir: FD is striked and banned often for sure vs ICs
[20:31:19] Joe Fortman: DSRM and stage bans arent mutually exclusive.. you can have them both
[20:31:22] Joe Fortman: no reason to remove stage bans
[20:31:39] Umbreon: i still put ICs over falcon even when FD can be banned
[20:31:44] Strong Bad: ^
[20:31:44] Joe Fortman: ok
[20:31:47] Roustane Benzeguir: mmm..
[20:31:59] Pink Reaper: I'd keep ICs < Doc when FD is banned lol
[20:32:03] Roustane Benzeguir: Fly how many times s2j outplaced you?
[20:32:23] Jeremy Westfahl: A lot. I don't keep track
[20:32:28] Roustane Benzeguir: hmm..
[20:32:34] Jeremy Westfahl: He always beats me in the head to head, but we do similarly against most other people
[20:32:36] Roustane Benzeguir: do you guys put wobbling legal?
[20:32:56] Strong Bad: sveet, wobbling's just assumed to be legal in the tier list right?
[20:32:58] Joe Fortman: This is my take on ICs vs Falcon

ICs do better against: Falco, Sheik
Falcon: Peach, Marth, Falcon, ICs
~the same: fox, puff
[20:33:02] Joe Fortman: yes, wobbling legal
[20:33:04] Strong Bad: k
[20:33:09] Ryan Ford: Does fly ever wobble anyway?
[20:33:11] Jeremy Westfahl: It's usually legal, but I don't wobble often since I rarely land clean enough grabs to confidently start a wobble before people mash out
[20:33:16] Joe Fortman: falcon also doesn't lose to platform camping
[20:33:18] Pink Reaper: Ics def do better against Puff than Falcon
[20:33:23] Joe Fortman: and doesn't have problems with any mid/low tiers
[20:33:47] Umbreon: ICs are wayyyyy better against jigglypuff, i honestly have no idea hoe falcons beat jigglypuff sometimes
[20:33:52] Strong Bad: again what mid/low tiers does ICs have problems with, cept maybe zelda
[20:33:57] Umbreon: how*
[20:33:57] Roustane Benzeguir: So ya ICs get easily separately a lot then, all you need is one hit and then you can mash out of grab fast enough before a wobble happens anyway
[20:34:09] Ryan Ford: ICs 10-0 more low tiers than falcon does, lol
[20:34:14] Umbreon: falcon is way better vs ganon and samus too
[20:34:20] Roustane Benzeguir: ya
[20:34:29] Strong Bad: yes, he does better against those high tier characters
[20:34:50] Pink Reaper: Falcon does way better against ICs than the ICs do
[20:34:52] Roustane Benzeguir: oh falcon/Ganon.. best matchup btw, ;)
[20:34:54] Pink Reaper: also against Falcon
[20:35:01] Little England: i say cf>ics>doc
[20:35:03] Ryan Ford: ICs beat sheik which is kind of rare to beat sheik in this game
[20:35:08] Roustane Benzeguir: im with england
[20:35:21] Pink Reaper: ICs are weird
[20:35:26] Strong Bad: still not sold on ICs > Sheik, I think it's even.
[20:35:27] Pink Reaper: we should give them their own tier
[20:35:28] Umbreon: ICs don't fold hard to falco, pretty important
[20:35:35] Joe Fortman: [20:35] Little England:

<<< i say cf>ics>doc^
[20:35:42] Umbreon: ICs molest the **** out of sheik
[20:35:47] Ryan Ford: They have a close matchup with falco too whereas falcon is falco's *****
[20:35:51] Umbreon: literally all she can do is SH fade FF autocancel fair
[20:36:01] Strong Bad: where's the tourney results to support that claim umbreon :troll:
[20:36:19] Umbreon: chu never lost to a sheik ever for like 6+ years
[20:36:20] Umbreon: >_>
[20:36:23] Roustane Benzeguir: lol
[20:36:27] Roustane Benzeguir: holy
[20:36:27] Joe Fortman: m2k's sheik
[20:36:28] Umbreon: idk more recent **** since he stopped playing
[20:36:30] Pink Reaper: But Fly > Chu
[20:36:30] Strong Bad: yeah, but we're in 2012
[20:36:40] Umbreon: i think fly >> chu also
[20:36:58] Little England: m2k beat chu one match and then nothing else like that has happened before
[20:37:00] Umbreon: ok even now what sheiks are beating jeremy or wobbles
[20:37:06] Pink Reaper: we should give ICs their own tier and name it "Fly is the only ICs" Tier
[20:37:10] Roustane Benzeguir: chu beat hbox though and nearly beat m2k.. thats almost top 5 material lol
[20:37:23] Strong Bad: wobbles tho
[20:37:24] Umbreon: chu didn't even play before he got 3rd for like 4 months
[20:37:32] Roustane Benzeguir: idk how he did thaty
[20:37:35] Roustane Benzeguir: that*
[20:37:41] Ryan Ford: Does wobbles face any sheiks?
[20:37:44] Strong Bad: hbox was stupid and kept letting him cp to a stage he won on.
[20:37:55] Strong Bad: all kinds of confused
[20:38:01] Jeremy Westfahl: IIRC, the last time Wobbles played a relevant Sheik was at Genesis 2, at which he beat Lucien
[20:38:01] david macdonald: lucien lost to wobbles fwiw
[20:38:05] david macdonald: ninja'd
[20:38:08] Roustane Benzeguir: hmm..
[20:38:14] Ryan Ford: I remember him getting ***** by that random sheik a week after he got 5th at apex
[20:38:37] Jeremy Westfahl: I think that had more to do with Wobbles being realy off-point than anything else
[20:38:44] Roustane Benzeguir: has chu beaten kdj before?
[20:38:50] Umbreon: wobbles was clearly not at his best at apex
[20:39:01] Pink Reaper: KDJ hasnt been relevant for years now
[20:39:04] Pink Reaper: let's not get on Mow logic here
[20:39:07] Strong Bad: who did wobbles lose to in winners?
[20:39:09] Umbreon: kdj switched to marth to play chu because chu kept 3 stocking his sheik
[20:39:13] Roustane Benzeguir: lol i was just curious
[20:39:18] Ryan Ford: I think wobbling is just op
[20:39:20] Umbreon: mmhmm
[20:39:21] Roustane Benzeguir: alright
[20:39:37] Pink Reaper: Most ICs players dont even care about wobbling
[20:39:38] Roustane Benzeguir: its not op when you know how to seperate ICs though im Ganon biased, lol
[20:39:43] Ryan Ford: But that's not for debate now I guess
[20:39:49] Pink Reaper: since the good ones are competent enough to kill you off a grab anyways
[20:39:55] Umbreon: i don't think wobbling changes a whole lot results wise, it's just relly degenerate to watch
[20:40:00] Roustane Benzeguir: ya
[20:40:03] Jeremy Westfahl: How important wobbling is varies by match-up
[20:40:11] Ryan Ford: Hmm
[20:40:23] Pink Reaper: the only match up i can see it being super useful in is the Jiggs match up
[20:40:31] david macdonald: Marth & Peach
[20:40:37] Little England: i would think it would help more vs characters like puff/peach than falco/sheik
[20:40:43] Umbreon: i think it'd be best vs fox
[20:40:47] Jeremy Westfahl: It's still really useful in other match-ups since most of the ICs' cgs can be escaped with good sdi
[20:41:00] Pink Reaper: but no one has good SDI so it's cool
[20:41:06] Roustane Benzeguir: lol
[20:41:17] Roustane Benzeguir: i disagree
[20:41:20] Jeremy Westfahl: Cali spacies and S2J are generally good at getting out of dair CGs
[20:42:06] Jeremy Westfahl: bizzarro flame will do things like sdi to the ground and grab you before you can re-grab him. I've seen lots of strange things
[20:42:21] Strong Bad: grab, or jab?
[20:42:26] Umbreon: california is a strange land
[20:42:26] Little England: thats cool lol
[20:42:27] Jeremy Westfahl: grab
[20:42:31] Strong Bad: weird
[20:42:35] Pink Reaper: Cali > the world
[20:42:46] Umbreon: in smash, yeah pretty much
[20:42:57] Pink Reaper: also cost of living
[20:42:58] Pink Reaper: dont forget that
[20:43:11] Strong Bad: and MPG
[20:43:27] Little England: cali is also a good place to be broke
[20:43:29] Little England: but anyways
[20:43:35] Umbreon: i think some tiny *** area on long island new york has all of california beat narrowly
[20:43:52] Little England: falcon>ics>doc imo
[20:44:01] Pink Reaper: M2 > Zelda
[20:44:02] Pink Reaper: imo
[20:44:13] Joe Fortman: haha ok
[20:44:21] Joe Fortman: anyone wanna talk about yoshi?
[20:44:24] Pink Reaper: no
[20:44:25] Strong Bad: yoshi sucks
[20:44:27] Umbreon: even w/ so many bad top tier MUs you put falcon over ICs?
[20:44:29] Roustane Benzeguir: not especially
[20:44:33] Strong Bad: below the links
[20:44:37] Pink Reaper: Below Roy
[20:44:41] Umbreon: yoshi is a waste of programming
[20:44:41] Strong Bad: lool
[20:44:43] david macdonald: Roy is legit
[20:44:46] Strong Bad: roy is ****
[20:44:52] Umbreon: roy is better than yoshi
[20:44:59] Roustane Benzeguir: i think yoshi and roy are about even in viability
[20:45:01] david macdonald: Roy's f-smash is pretty good
[20:45:08] Umbreon: roy's dashdance is pretty good
[20:45:16] Strong Bad: yea roy's DD is his best move
[20:45:24] Umbreon: roy's DD is way more degenerate than anything yoshi has
[20:45:43] Roustane Benzeguir: yoshi has fast counter-attacks after parries though
[20:45:49] Umbreon: ....k
[20:45:58] Umbreon: don't jump at him = no parry
[20:46:00] david macdonald: Yeah but parry is a commitment whereas DD isn't. Not really.
[20:46:04] Strong Bad: now that we've got yoshi's ****tiness out of the way anything else on the agenda sveet
[20:46:12] Joe Fortman: hahaha
[20:46:17] Umbreon: falco #1 , peach #6, yoshi #26
[20:46:29] *** Strong Bad has changed the conversation topic to "MBR Tier List: Yoshi #26" ***
[20:46:42] david macdonald: Sveet are you actually streaming this?
[20:46:46] Joe Fortman: no haha
[20:46:50] david macdonald: You should
[20:46:54] david macdonald: I want to talk to the streamchat
[20:46:55] Joe Fortman: im posting the text after
[20:46:57] Pink Reaper: Stream it directly to leffen
[20:47:02] Joe Fortman: lmao
[20:47:16 | Edited 20:47:33] Strong Bad: EDITED for leffen's protection
[20:47:29] Umbreon: whats a leffen fanboy
[20:47:31] Pink Reaper: Dear Mango: I lost to PP, take notes
[20:47:34] Little England: who's gunna read all of this lol
[20:47:56] Roustane Benzeguir: i definitely won't lol
[20:47:57] Joe Fortman: i have LE
[20:48:05] Strong Bad: i have so far read all of this
[20:48:06] Joe Fortman: taken me an hour and a half
[20:48:10] Pink Reaper: let's more on to the lower tiers
[20:48:16] Strong Bad: ok so
[20:48:25] Strong Bad: ganon > samus > pikachu
[20:48:25] Joe Fortman: falcon/ic/doc tier then
[20:48:30] Roustane Benzeguir: so what is it Falcon/ICs/Doc?
[20:48:32] Joe Fortman: ganon samus pika mario?
[20:48:32] Pink Reaper: it's pretty safe to say despite my outlier vote it's gonna be Falcon/ICs, Ganon, Samus, Pika
[20:48:42] Pink Reaper: with doc above Ganon
[20:48:44] Pink Reaper: cus i missed him lol
[20:48:47] Roustane Benzeguir: Ganon pika samus, luigi
[20:48:51] Strong Bad: pika > luigi > dk > mario on my list, because mario is ****ing terrible.
[20:49:03] Pink Reaper: I have Luigi > Pika > Mario > DK actually lol
[20:49:09] Umbreon: mario is pretty awful....except dat downthrow
[20:49:13] Pink Reaper: though i think that was a mistake
[20:49:18] Pink Reaper: because i def want Pika > Luigi
[20:49:23] Strong Bad: yea dude he has downthrow -> nair -> nothing
[20:49:24] Joe Fortman: mario has the best jab in the game
[20:49:25] Joe Fortman: haha
[20:49:26] Roustane Benzeguir: pika is def > luigi
[20:49:28] Umbreon: luigi is def after pikachu though
[20:49:41] Little England: doc>ganon>samus>pika/luigi
[20:49:57] Strong Bad: think we're all in agreeance that doc is 9th
[20:50:03] Roustane Benzeguir: ya
[20:50:09] Little England: ya
[20:50:14] Pink Reaper: im not
[20:50:18] Pink Reaper: but no one cares what i think
[20:50:18] Pink Reaper: so let's move on
[20:50:25] Umbreon: i can accept doc @ 9th
[20:50:41] Strong Bad: it's an opinion based tier list anyway, aren't all the lists gonna be averaged? so no big deal if people disagree, just have it represented in your vote
[20:51:08] Umbreon: 1 falco 6 peach 7 falcon 8 ICs 9 doc 10 ganon 11 samus 12 pikachu 13 luigi 26 yoshi
[20:51:18] Pink Reaper: 0 Meta Knight
[20:51:26] Strong Bad: MK is banned, no point in putting him on the list.
[20:51:27] Joe Fortman: is everyone pretty much in agreement about falco?
[20:51:31] Umbreon: i wish melee had more characters so i could vote yoshi lower
[20:51:38] Little England: not really lol
[20:51:47] Strong Bad: yoshi is below master hand
[20:51:52] Umbreon: who wins more than falco?
[20:51:57] Jeremy Westfahl: Add in the wire frames
[20:51:57] Little England: not at all
[20:52:02] Pink Reaper: let's make Zelda?samus one character
[20:52:02] Pink Reaper: so we can put Yoshi at 27th
[20:52:30] Little England: Fox doesn't lose to any character except maaaaaaaaaaaaybe falco.
[20:52:35] Pink Reaper: wow
[20:52:38] Pink Reaper: zelda/samus?
[20:52:39] Pink Reaper: go pink reaper
[20:52:45] Pink Reaper: you meant zelda/shiek
[20:52:46] Umbreon: fox doesn't win as much as falco does though
[20:52:49] Little England: whereas I think Falco loses to ICs and Marth imo
[20:52:58] Strong Bad: can we put demo link AI as a character? he's the AI it uses in event 3: bomb-fest
[20:53:04] Joe Fortman: sheik and zelda will remain separate characters.
[20:53:05] Strong Bad: that way we can have yoshi at 28th
[20:53:15] Ryan Ford: Fox doesn't lose to marth? What is this?
[20:53:15] Little England: purely based on MUs (which is how I form my opinion) Fox>Falco
[20:53:18] Umbreon: both mango and kevin have great records as falco vs marth and ICs i think
[20:53:21] Roustane Benzeguir: if you remove the top 5 in the world from the list, does falco still win or fox? =p
[20:53:29] Pink Reaper: Fighting Polygon Male 26, fighting polygon female 27, yoshi 28
[20:53:34] Strong Bad: yea just ignore the most relevant data kage
[20:53:36] Strong Bad: sounds good
[20:53:47] Strong Bad: fighting polygon? this ain't 64
[20:53:51] Strong Bad: cmon step it up, wireframes
[20:53:54] Pink Reaper: I think Falco's overall match ups are better than Fox's
[20:53:56] Pink Reaper: SHUT UP SB
[20:53:59] Pink Reaper: I woke up at 3am for work
[20:54:02] Pink Reaper: im tired as **** lol
[20:54:02] Jeremy Westfahl: Wobbles thinks Falco is one of ICs' two worst match-ups. I think ICs vs. Falco is even-ish. There isn't a lot of consensus on that match-up
[20:54:14] Jeremy Westfahl: Didn't you just wake up?
[20:54:19] Strong Bad: ICs worst MU is peach right?
[20:54:21] Pink Reaper: yeah, i took an hour nap lol
[20:54:33] Pink Reaper: but im even added in that's all of like, 5 hours of sleep total
[20:54:37] Jeremy Westfahl: I would say so, although Wobbles thinks Falco/Marth are ICs' worst match-ups
[20:54:38] Umbreon: peach on brinstar lol
[20:54:39] Jeremy Westfahl: neither of which I agree with
[20:54:46] Roustane Benzeguir: Marth? ...
[20:54:50] Pink Reaper: Falco?
[20:54:57] Strong Bad: that's fairly strange
[20:54:58] Pink Reaper: Marth/Falcopro?
[20:55:01] Umbreon: usually ICs worst MUs seem to be peach fox and falcon
[20:55:07] Roustane Benzeguir: I guess I need to own him some more, he'll think Ganon is worse
[20:55:09] Umbreon: jeremy? agree/disagree?
[20:55:11] Strong Bad: guess those are just the characters he has trouble with most
[20:55:26] Ryan Ford: That's cuz wobbles is bad vs falco he doesn't even play the matchup often
[20:55:28] Roustane Benzeguir: Ganon does better vs ICs than Falcon
[20:55:44] Strong Bad: so anyway sveet, what's next
[20:55:49] Jeremy Westfahl: I'd say Peach is the hardest, then Falcon and maybe Ganon, and then Fox
[20:56:09] Strong Bad: and is there a reason we're going down the list when we can just post our list and they can be averaged like they're going to be anyway
[20:56:10] Pink Reaper: Having ganon as a bad match up is ok though, because Kage is the only Ganon
[20:56:21] Roustane Benzeguir: ya but thats like saying PP is the only Falco
[20:56:28] Strong Bad: only gonna get more spotty the lower down the list we go
[20:56:30] Umbreon: even with a proposed but debatabler MU advantage, falco definitely wins more than fox
[20:56:31] Pink Reaper: no no, there's also mango
[20:56:36] Umbreon: debatable*
[20:56:40] Jeremy Westfahl: Having Ganon is a bad match-up isn't that big a deal since odds are you aren't going to run into a good Ganon at a major tourney
[20:56:45] Jeremy Westfahl: *as a bad
[20:56:47] Roustane Benzeguir: hehe true
[20:57:01] Pink Reaper: it's like having Y.Link as a bad match up
[20:57:06] Strong Bad: ^
[20:57:06] Roustane Benzeguir: if they were more Kages in tournament ICs wouldn't win as much, j/k
[20:58:01] Jeremy Westfahl: For better or worse, character popularity is a factor in how well a character can perform in a tourney since it determines what match-ups it's most important to be good in
[20:58:06] Jeremy Westfahl: and there just aren't a lot of Ganons
[20:58:17] Joe Fortman: we've pretty much touched on everything on my agenda
[20:58:27] Joe Fortman: does anyone else have something we should talk about?
[20:58:28] Strong Bad: yeah basically, if you're going to use a MU chart then you need to weight based on popularity.
[20:58:49] Strong Bad: having a losing MU to mewtwo isn't relevant if no one uses mewtwo etc
[20:58:54] Umbreon: i know as of 2012, cactuar and pc chris finally agree that falco is better than fox after holding out on that forever
[20:59:07] Pink Reaper: JV thinks Falco is the best
[20:59:17] Strong Bad: ****ing JV
[20:59:20] Umbreon: JV has basically always thought falco was the best though
[20:59:31] Umbreon: JV thought falco was the best in 2003 when i met him
[20:59:33] Pink Reaper: Side note: MLG Sucks
[20:59:37] Umbreon: MLG Sucks
[20:59:39] Strong Bad: i agree
[20:59:40] Strong Bad: MLG sucks
[20:59:49] Jeremy Westfahl: MLG: Yoshi tier
[20:59:56] Little England: lolz
[21:00:07] Ryan Ford: I've thought falco was the best since like 2006. I didn't even main fox back then
[21:00:24] Umbreon: i thought falco was the best after 2007 or so
[21:00:25] Pink Reaper: not maining Fox is a good way to get ***** even harder by Falco though lol
[21:00:28] Umbreon: so you beat me ryan
[21:00:33] Little England: welp I'm def the only one here who thinks Fox>Falco
[21:00:48] Pink Reaper: I still think Fox is a better character, just not maintainable LE
[21:00:49] Strong Bad: I thought falco was the best when I realized that every time he shorthopped he controls a box of space relatively equal to the horizontal length of the stage.
[21:00:51] Joe Fortman: Based on weighted match-ups, isnt fox better?
[21:01:03] Joe Fortman: i mean, falco has many more "evenish" matchups than fox
[21:01:03] Umbreon: i think fox is worse because his playstyle is too limiting
[21:01:17] Strong Bad: having evenish MUs isn't bad.
[21:01:18] Umbreon: no one has "even" matches with falco lol
[21:01:21] Umbreon: laser is too stupid
[21:01:29] Pink Reaper: Falco beats Falco 70/30
[21:01:30] Umbreon: stage control everywhere forever = dumb
[21:01:33] Strong Bad: fox loses to falco though, idgaf if he 90-10's everyone else.
[21:01:40] Joe Fortman: umbreon: fox, marth, puff, peach, sheik disagree
[21:01:51] Ryan Ford: Depends who you ask fly
[21:01:59] Jeremy Westfahl: IIRC, based on some weighted match-up chart I made for the top 11 characters a few years ago, Fox came out on top, but that doesn't mean anything for a number of resaons
[21:02:03] Pink Reaper: falco beats Sheik
[21:02:14] Ryan Ford: I don't see how fox is even/wins vs marth for example
[21:02:18] Strong Bad: yeah those are close to even MUs where it's between 50-50 and 55-45 falco favor sveet
[21:02:29] Umbreon: the modern falcos tend to **** all of those except peach and puff, and puff sidesteps the laser control and peach is armada and basically only armada does well against the good falcos
[21:02:30] Little England: if Marth beats Fox
[21:02:39] Little England: thats more proof that Fox>Marth>Falco lol
[21:02:43] Joe Fortman: yes strongbad, but fox has like 2 even match-ups and wins the rest (marth and falco)
[21:02:50] Jeremy Westfahl: I'm confused why I'm being referenced here
[21:02:59] Strong Bad: that's only if you assume that fox vs falco is an even MU
[21:03:11] Roustane Benzeguir: LE but you based that on you think that fox > Falco
[21:03:24] Little England: I think Fox vs Falco is even
[21:03:25] Umbreon: fox vs falco is pretty even for the most part, falco is just doing much better in tournaments overall vs a varied cast
[21:03:33] Little England: but fox is a better character
[21:03:39] Umbreon: results say otherwise
[21:03:42] Pink Reaper: I actually think Fox has a slight advantage in the head to head >_>
[21:03:47] Little England: what umbreon said
[21:03:49] Roustane Benzeguir: fox is better played perfectly
[21:03:52] Joe Fortman: results are skewed by players
[21:03:54] Roustane Benzeguir: but we cant measure that
[21:04:05] Ryan Ford: How LE? If of loses 2, and falco loses 1? Or was it 0?
[21:04:07] Strong Bad: anyway we're only gonna go in circles if we try to dicsuss fox vs falco (in MU or tier list)
[21:04:11] Ryan Ford: If fox*
[21:04:15] Strong Bad: lets just let the averaged votes decide that
[21:04:20] Umbreon: results have been skewed in favor of falco and against fox since 2005, how long is it a skew and not a fact?
[21:04:29] Joe Fortman: umbreon i disagree completely
[21:04:30] Strong Bad: brb
[21:04:46] Umbreon: you can only deny reality for so long, even mango does better as falco over fox
[21:04:55] Joe Fortman: Even when mango and PP were winning everything, the character ranking list had fox at almost 3 times the amount of points falco and puff had
[21:05:05] Little England: I think Falco loses to Marth ICs and if Fox loses to Marth it would make sense that Fox>Marth>Falco
[21:05:07] Umbreon: which ranking list?
[21:05:18] Joe Fortman: character ranking list
[21:05:23] Umbreon: show me?
[21:05:41] Umbreon: please don't use the super flawed player data base
[21:05:55] Strong Bad: there is no accurate character ranking list in existence
[21:05:59] Little England: Can I invite CunningKitsune
[21:06:05] Umbreon: sure, CK is cool
[21:06:07] Joe Fortman: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=267771
[21:06:09] Little England: he knows a thing or 2
[21:06:38] Strong Bad: lol DK 17th
[21:06:56] Joe Fortman: Jason i wish you would have brought him in earlier
[21:06:59] Joe Fortman: we are almost done now
[21:07:24] Roustane Benzeguir: whats left?
[21:07:29] Pink Reaper: Bottom tier
[21:07:29] Umbreon: ahh i've seen this before, tony stopped doing these because they rank usage more than quantitative output
[21:07:32] Little England: he wasn't online
[21:07:36] Little England: =/
[21:07:38] Roustane Benzeguir: Umm
[21:07:41] Umbreon: iirc the BBR now does winnings in $ divided by representation
[21:07:46] Pink Reaper: G&W
[21:07:58] Roustane Benzeguir: we havent even touched Roy, Link and YL lol
[21:08:00] Umbreon: although it does suggest with data that fox is better than falco, so i'll buy it
[21:08:13] Roustane Benzeguir: DK too
[21:08:30] Pink Reaper: DK > YL > Link > Roy
[21:08:31] Joe Fortman: umbreon, its basically the same thing since the points = placing * pot
[21:08:39] Umbreon: yes i understand that
[21:08:46] Umbreon: i'm not arguing with you
[21:08:57] Joe Fortman: my bad didnt see ur 2nd to last post
[21:09:02] Roustane Benzeguir: DK > Link > YL > Roy
[21:09:17] Strong Bad: DK > YL > Link > Zelda > G&W > M2 > Roy
[21:09:22] Little England: I think DK is awful lol
[21:09:29] Umbreon: the hard part is deciding how many of those points are quantified by our super ambiguous "top level of play" qualifier
[21:09:38] Roustane Benzeguir: DK isnt represented at all, so it really sucks lol but i know how he is in general
[21:09:48] Umbreon: DK is really awful, but probably still better than link and zelda lol
[21:09:55] Roustane Benzeguir: i play pkm a lot who is amazing at various matchup at the very least
[21:10:00] Pink Reaper: DK Vs Roy on FD is 100/0 in DKs favor
[21:10:00] Strong Bad: DK sucks
[21:10:01] Pink Reaper: that's all that matters
[21:10:08] Strong Bad: that's a fact
[21:10:14] Strong Bad: the problem is, these other chars are even worse
[21:10:20] Umbreon: i'm pretty sure the worst match in the game is ICs vs roy on FD
[21:10:28] Pink Reaper: 110/-10
[21:10:36] Umbreon: i can't seem to win that one
[21:10:40] Ryan Ford: ICs v pichu on FD is worse
[21:10:50] Pink Reaper: Pichu is in smash?
[21:10:54] Strong Bad: pichu?
[21:10:55] Umbreon: whats a pichu
[21:10:56] Strong Bad: what's a pichu
[21:10:56] Jeremy Westfahl: Somebody counterpicked me with Roy a while ago. He killed Nana kind of quickly, but it didn't matter since I just CGed him to death with Popo the rest of the stocks
[21:11:03] Jeremy Westfahl: because that is something Popo can do to Roy apparentl
[21:11:05] Jeremy Westfahl: *y
[21:11:06] Umbreon: yeah chu CGs me to deal with sopo
[21:11:08] Roustane Benzeguir: I think Zelda > Roy though > G&W
[21:11:16] Umbreon: i usually kill him with upthrow @ 220
[21:11:25] Little England: I think Roy is bottom 5 lol
[21:11:30] Roustane Benzeguir: no way
[21:11:32] Strong Bad: sopo can also CG yoshi, yet another reason yoshi's awful
[21:11:32] Umbreon: nah roy isn't that bad
[21:11:43] Umbreon: roy still has a dumb DD
[21:11:44] Little England: LOL
[21:11:57] Pink Reaper: I maintained for a long time that Roy was one of the bottom 3 characters
[21:12:09] Pink Reaper: I still do, but im voting against that right now because it doesnt really matter
[21:12:17] Little England: lhe's just so easy to exploit
[21:12:26] Strong Bad: roy's 5th worst on my list
[21:12:31] Little England: ^same
[21:12:38] Umbreon: as long as roy can press left and right, he'll still shut down any character that loses solely to dashdance, and there's a good number of them
[21:12:47] Strong Bad: i can't think of another character that's worse than him
[21:12:49] Little England: oh wait no he's at 4
[21:12:51] Strong Bad: than ness/bowser/pichu/lkirby
[21:12:53] Little England: cause I got that bias
[21:12:55] Pink Reaper: Roy can Dash dance into hitting with a paper fan
[21:12:59] Umbreon: no
[21:13:00] Pink Reaper: which is like 4%
[21:13:00] Umbreon: grab
[21:13:02] Strong Bad: dd into grab into nothing
[21:13:02] Pink Reaper: oh
[21:13:04] Pink Reaper: i play kirby
[21:13:04] Jeremy Westfahl: He can at least grab
[21:13:04] Umbreon: grab = position
[21:13:07] Umbreon: he can work with that
[21:13:08] Pink Reaper: I've never been grabbed by roy
[21:13:11] Pink Reaper: what's it like?
[21:13:16] Little England: LOL
[21:13:16] Jeremy Westfahl: Grabs can also lead to tech-chased which can lead to actual damage
[21:13:19] Jeremy Westfahl: *chases
[21:13:20] Umbreon: roy can dash attack cancel grab and grab kirbys crouch
[21:13:25] Umbreon: it's not so bad
[21:13:29] Roustane Benzeguir: Zelda > Roy> g&w > M2 > Yoshi
[21:13:30] Pink Reaper: Kirby's Dtilt > Roy
[21:13:31] Strong Bad: dash attack cancel grab is so worthless with roy
[21:13:47] Umbreon: no it's not, it grabs kirby;s crouch so he doesn't lose to only dtilt
[21:13:52] Strong Bad: how on earth do you think roy is better than G&W or M2
[21:14:00] Strong Bad: you can just dash grab instead <_<
[21:14:02] Umbreon: roy is definitely better than GAW, mewtwo maybe maybe not
[21:14:05] Pink Reaper: Kirby's Dtilit is longer than Roy's grab box
[21:14:07] Strong Bad: barely any difference
[21:14:08] Little England: I think Ness>Roy too. (bias)
[21:14:10] Pink Reaper: and Boost grabbing is awful
[21:14:19] Roustane Benzeguir: Roy has decent matchups vs spacies
[21:14:22] Strong Bad: boost grab only with sheik, and doc for lulz
[21:14:24] Umbreon: roy is also definitely better than ness, ness is really worthlesss
[21:14:32] Roustane Benzeguir: which is the most popular character chosen
[21:14:38] Little England: I think Roy is more worthless XD
[21:14:39] david macdonald: Ness is atrocious
[21:14:40] Pink Reaper: Roy has nothing on Falco lol
[21:14:45] Umbreon: ness is probably bottom 5
[21:14:45] Strong Bad: you're just kind of wrong if you think roy does decently against fox or falco.
[21:14:47] Strong Bad: sorry
[21:14:49] david macdonald: Ness is worse than Roy
[21:14:53] Roustane Benzeguir: he does
[21:14:54] Umbreon: nothing under B tier has anything on falco
[21:14:59] Strong Bad: especially if we're assuming an fd bannable at all times stagelist
[21:15:06] Strong Bad: pick roy -> lose
[21:15:11] Strong Bad: is what happens
[21:15:16] Umbreon: yeah
[21:15:21] Pink Reaper: Pick Roy -> Still better than Yoshi
[21:15:22] Little England: This is largly based on theorycrafting with mofo so idgaf really lol
[21:15:22] Umbreon: definitely
[21:15:36] Umbreon: i think roy and yoshi are close, real talk
[21:15:41] david macdonald: Ness has no way to hit you
[21:15:46] Strong Bad: yoshi is > roy on my list if only because roy is so bad
[21:15:51] Umbreon: ness is just horrible awful bad
[21:15:52] david macdonald: Once you come to terms with this, he's really bad
[21:15:57] Pink Reaper: Ness has some useable OoS options >_>
[21:15:57] david macdonald: Oh, really?
[21:16:02] Umbreon: WD back?
[21:16:02] david macdonald: Can you tell me them?
[21:16:02] Pink Reaper: DJC Nair lol
[21:16:03] Pink Reaper: the only one
[21:16:07] Umbreon: WD back is good KK
[21:16:13] Strong Bad: djc nair hits like frame 10
[21:16:14] david macdonald: I know WD back is good
[21:16:19] Umbreon: it's an option? lol
[21:16:19] Strong Bad: that's ****
[21:16:22] Strong Bad: and has no range
[21:16:25] david macdonald: DJC nair sucks and doesn't beat anything
[21:16:26] Strong Bad: because you're ****ing ness
[21:16:34] Jeremy Westfahl: WD back and non-DJCed nair are the things I'd think would be decent
[21:16:45] Strong Bad: yea, normal nair is better than djc nair
[21:16:48] Joe Fortman: this discussion is kinda silly now since nobody plays any of these characters in tournament
[21:16:55] Roustane Benzeguir: yep lol
[21:16:55] Umbreon: i never block with ness ever, i only do movement into things that can be crouchgrabbed and i hope my opponent never does it
[21:16:56] Ryan Ford: Pichu has more options oos than ness
[21:17:03] Roustane Benzeguir: LOL
[21:17:03] Little England: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4skdaYDW4D8
[21:17:05] Little England: lies sveet
[21:17:06] Little England: lol
[21:17:16] Umbreon: i used to play ness in tournament >_>
[21:17:21] Strong Bad: this aint a doubles tier list
[21:17:26] Strong Bad: get that vid outta here
[21:17:26] Little England: lol its a joke
[21:17:35] Joe Fortman: (clap)
[21:17:35] Pink Reaper: Watty vs Drephen
[21:17:38] Roustane Benzeguir: i used to play Roy and Link in low tier tourneys, they were quite good
[21:17:52] Strong Bad: link is quite good in low tier tourneys
[21:17:58] Pink Reaper: Link is ***
[21:18:03] david macdonald: Link is a boss except he sucks
[21:18:03] Pink Reaper: Y.Link is where it's at
[21:18:06] Pink Reaper: 10/0's everyone
[21:18:09] Pink Reaper: just ask Laijin
[21:18:11] Joe Fortman: link is great in PM
[21:18:12] Strong Bad: although i think low tier tourneys are particularly irrelevant in a tier list discussion
[21:18:23] Roustane Benzeguir: aww
[21:18:33] Umbreon: link is probably about as good as mario, and better than zelda/roy
[21:18:33] Roustane Benzeguir: i tried
[21:18:33] Roustane Benzeguir: ya probably
[21:18:39] Pink Reaper: Im hungry, someone mow me a sandwich
[21:18:44] Umbreon: mowwwww
[21:18:50] Ryan Ford: That's why laijin quit YO for sheik right?
[21:19:00] Ryan Ford: YL*
[21:19:03] Jeremy Westfahl: Young Old
[21:19:09] Roustane Benzeguir: whats left?
[21:19:10] Joe Fortman: Ok guys. I'm calling it now
[21:19:10] Strong Bad: lol Young Old
[21:19:20] Strong Bad: what's left is probably just pm sveet your lists
[21:19:23] Pink Reaper: should we just do Votes in the MBR?
[21:19:24] Joe Fortman: You are all invited to vote on the tier list
[21:19:24] Umbreon: but we didn't fight for 4 hours about jigglypuff
[21:19:36] Joe Fortman: To vote, PM me your list
[21:19:43] Ryan Ford: The chat has been done for me for a while
[21:19:48] Roustane Benzeguir: for a while?
[21:19:49] Joe Fortman: deadline is friday
[21:19:51] Pink Reaper: i posted mine publicly so i could remember the order >_>
[21:20:04] Umbreon: wait
[21:20:07] Umbreon: is sheik S tier or A tier
[21:20:09] Umbreon: >_>
[21:20:17] Ryan Ford: We don't have to Pm it again right?
[21:20:18] Umbreon: she has S in her name so idk
[21:20:20] Pink Reaper: XXX tier
[21:20:22] Joe Fortman: i figured id just flip a coin umbreon :troll:
[21:20:30] Strong Bad: tiers should be separated by the discrepancy in points after averaging out lists
[21:20:34] Joe Fortman: ^
[21:20:39] Umbreon: ...fineeeeee
[21:20:43] Umbreon: look at math over here
[21:20:43] Strong Bad: i do think that sheik will end up a tier though
[21:20:48] Ryan Ford: Uh oh
[21:20:52] Pink Reaper: so
[21:20:55] Pink Reaper: that pokemon tier list
[21:20:55] Joe Fortman: GUYS
[21:20:56] Strong Bad: because peopel put puff over sheik, and no one puts falco/fox at anything worse than 2nd
[21:20:58] Joe Fortman: SHh
[21:20:59] Umbreon: we killed kevin, he's dead
[21:21:05] Joe Fortman: PM me your vote with no tier separation
[21:21:10] Strong Bad: kkk
[21:21:19] Joe Fortman: i will compile and we can talk about division breifly later
[21:21:21] Pink Reaper: SS Tier: Breloom
[21:21:28] Joe Fortman: i think itll be fairly clear, but just in case
[21:21:52] Umbreon: if fox falco puff are S tier, can we rename it Frame 1 Down Bs are Bull**** Tier?
[21:22:00] Joe Fortman: Yes haha[/collapse]


Relic of the Past
Sep 14, 2002
The Netherlands
What was the point of letting in more people to the MBR when a Skype chat + PMs equals the entire process?

I would also suggest doing writeups rather than just releasing that entire chat log as reasoning.

Fortress | Sveet

Dec 21, 2005
Northern IL
Always appreciate feedback, thanks Marc! I found the process moves so much quicker with a skype conversation. Consensus is ideal and I was pleasantly surprised by how many times people agreed.

A write up could be useful. Most people will not take the time to read an hour+ of discussion and will simply want a few questions answered. The obvious solution is to release a FAQ alongside the final tier list. Since transparency is one of my primary goals, I will also be including the full chat log in the release thread for those brave enough.


Relic of the Past
Sep 14, 2002
The Netherlands
My earlier post seems a bit snide now because I was in a hurry for a dentist's appointment. I actually like how you're striving for consensus. Skype chats probably shouldn't altogether replace forum discussion, but you can cover a lot of ground fast. It's been a bit of a bumpy road and I know the frustration of trying to get things started and not getting real feedback, so kudos for making progress. I would still aim to gather more votes and get people like Armada in on it though. More votes means individual votes make it less swingy and bigger names means that much more authority. Kind of up to them to actually participate though, smash sadly doesn't get much top player input.

Most placements will be pretty obvious, but explaining the biggest movements and keeping track of what people ask about should go a long way in terms of transparency. If you need help with that I could probably whip something up here and there.

[collapse=some of my own opinions for who cares]Skimming through the chat log I find myself agreeing with Umbreon a lot. I don't think tier lists should be based on results 100%, but they should give a very strong nod to how well characters actually are performing in the current metagame. At some point a good player can inflate a character somewhat, but consistent performances are worth a lot and the most useful aspect of a tier list is telling players how well they can expect characters to perform in a tournament setting, all else being equal.

Falco outperforms Fox somewhat at the moment, but both are omnipresent at all levels of play. I think, especially in NTSC, Fox still has more potential, but if people want to give Falco the nod that's not unreasonable. I don't see how Puff is anything less than top 3 with the consistent performances she's had over the past years (first Mango, then HBox). On paper I can see her not being perfect, but she is the maximum punishment character and doesn't seem held back by anything in particular. You could maybe argue she loses to spacies and Young Link (lol, didn't seem that bad at APEX), but it's nothing crippling. On that note, what makes Fox/Falco/Puff stand out to me is that, even if you take the most pessimistic view of any of them, they have proven to be able to go through tournaments as solo mains without ever needing to switch. We don't have a matchup chart, but right now I don't think any of these three characters ever runs into more than a slight disadvantage.

Sheik, Marth and Peach all have matchups they'd rather not play. Sheik has significant trouble with ICs, Puff and Falco IMO and the only top Sheik main who I never see switch is KirbyKaze (M2K switches a lot and Amsah just loses to our best Falco now, he does better with Fox...). Personally I tend to go Peach for at least Falco (60% of my tournament matches these days, rofl) and ICs and am just lucky no one in my scene plays Puff at a level where I get butt *****. But yeah, Sheik as a solo main or even as one of M2K's characters isn't top 3 in the game. Her saving grace in NTSC is that her downthrow makes tech chases somewhat easier and gives you free aerials or regrabs on many characters, so she is a solid fourth in that version by virtue of dominating most characters below her. In PAL I could see Peach being better, to be honest.

Marth is hard to judge because his metagame really is in a rut, but I feel like most of his important matchups are evenish at best and Sheik is tough for him, especially in NTSC. He also doesn't deal with shield pressure well and I'm starting to feel like Falco has an edge over him too, but this is mostly based on M2K's performance and some recent sets of Ice. Peach is good, but even Armada has to switch to a secondary to fight Puff, not to mention (NTSC) Fox and Captain Falcon are also hard matchups still. I don't think Peach has any important matchups on lock, but she might be better than Marth at the moment. On that note ICs and Falcon have some very effective uses and I actually don't think they're that much worse, but they do fight uphill a lot of the time. Out of what remains I think Doc is the best character, but we're getting into "only one good main" territory here. *shrug*[/collapse]

Deleted member

I think we should scrap this tier list project:

- We have no meaningful changes from the prior "outdated" list.

- There's a surprising lack of research data backing our votes.

- Only the stage list and maybe extreme outlier players have any real impact on the performance of the characters.

- Our stage list, and by extension the rule set are outdated anyway.

- We should really be above this Fox vs Falco **** by now.

Here's what I propose that we do:

1. Stop/Cancel this project entirely.

2. Revise the stage list. Include regional TOs for the tournament making process, and ask them how we should update our 2009-2010 rule set.

3. If we do another tier list, it's pretty apparent that nothing is going to change. We should take this opportunity to use a better method than guesswork and voting. I would like to propose that we move to a more meaningful shift to the 3 tiers based on viability idea.

Charles, Sheridan, post something in response to this.

Fortress | Sveet

Dec 21, 2005
Northern IL
I think your points have a lot of truth to them, but I don't think those reasons are enough to invalidate the work we've done. Hell, the list is practically done, just waiting on a few votes.


El Fuego
Mar 10, 2006
Philadephia, PA
I wrote this up after reading the chat log from the Skype thing and as a followup to Marc's post regarding his concerns. This is just me jotting down thoughts quickly, so I haven't revised it and fleshed out the points I'm making fully, but the message should still be relatively clear. I'm super tired of seeing year after year of mass voting, with no real explanation of position changes beyond "well the opinion of the group changed a little I guess."

I agree that providing reasoning to why a character has moved up or down in tier/position in each tier list over several years would be the best method when the goal is to provide a tier list based on a combination of tournament results and opinion.

The problem is that every year, people want to make the tier list from scratch, using different methodologies each time. The last one was just a straight up "what does everyone think, discussion doesn't matter, we'll just take the averages of all the voting" approach. This doesn't provide a foundation for next year's approach of "we'll just take last year's and see what needs to be moved up or down", and it doesn't tell the reader anything other than "lol, a bunch of people you don't know just voted".

You don't need to assemble the tier list by placing every character individually. I think a base list needs to be established, providing a reasoning for every placement, and based 75%+ on tournament results, not equal weighting with player opinion.

1. Falco
- Trending tournament results
- Rough matchup chart vs viable characters, any noteworthy weak matchups vs anyone in semi or non.
- Brief explanation of popular high level opinion, strength of strategies, etcetc.

2. Fox
- Same as above.

and so on.

Then next year, all you have to do is change it to:

1. Falco (-)
2. Puff (+1)
3. Fox (-1)

and add a fourth line of:
- Falco remains in the top position because of continuing dominance in tournament results
- Puff has moved up one as a result of the development of her x strategy that has improved her matchups vs x,y,z characters and secured her several top placements at national and regional scale tournaments.
- Fox has moved down one because he has shown no significant strategic growth, as well as scattered and infrequent placements in the top 3 at nationals and regionals this year.

I've made my position on tier lists well known. I've refused to participate in tier list discussions for years now. It has nothing to do with me not really liking tier lists, as most of you know I love theorycrafting the hell out of this game. It has to do with the process that everyone decides on, year after year. Fox rarely gets top8 placings at nationals. He isn't an S tier character. There are like 250 fox mains, and only 3 or 4 of them stand a chance to make it to top 8. There are like 7 IC mains, and 3 of them are top level players.

All I see in that chat log is this obscene reliance on individual opinion, with no more backing than, "well this is what I think."

Do your research. Look at this year's tournaments. Make a backed opinion with "Looking at so-and-so's placement this year at x tournament, and specifically at his matchup with other-so-and-so, etcetc". Everyone talks in this super abstract "fox da bess" mentality. He's good, but he has NEVER deserved to be S tier other than in a pure potential tier list. His tournament results have never shown it. If we took all tournaments ever, Marth would probably still be number one. If we took recent tournaments only, Falco/Puff would be highest in NTSC, with Peach trailing, and Peach would be 1st in PAL, purely because of Armada.

If I had to make the argument for NTSC, I would include facts about Puff's overstrong matchup vs Peach forcing Armada to (successfully) use a lower tier character to win the matchup. An unwinnable matchup vs another character in the top8 IS enough of a reason to bump a character down a position or two. ICs vs Sheik is the only other one I can even think of, but it doesn't get weighted heavily because Sheik and IC mains are both in low quantity. This isn't a community of 10's of thousands of players.

The tier list is not about the average player's opinion about the average level of the metagame. It is about where the characters are currently, in the highest level of play.

I don't care how the tiers are set up. You guys can figure out how you want to tier the characters. The only thing that is important in my eyes is ranking viable characters, and maybe the semi-viables if there is sufficient argument to back the placements. Anything below that is pointless to argue over, as there just isn't enough tournament evidence to be able to say that x garbage tier character is better than y garbage tier character. It's a waste of time, and I'm really tired of seeing leffen write walls of text on why Yoshi should be higher on the tier list. No one plays Yoshi. You want to see him higher on the tier list, come to NTSC tournaments and prove him being higher. Otherwise, stop wasting your time arguing over stuff that doesn't matter. Those characters straight up don't need to be ranked. They can be lumped into the same group. If you care to, you can write up statements regarding those characters having randomly strong matchups vs whatever viable/semi character, but the assumption for any other matchup not written up will be that the garbage tier character gets stomped.

You know what would be a good argument for yoshi positioning, above all of your hypothetical strategy talk? Pointing out that Vectorman beat Azen at pound 5, in addition to making it into bracket. Providing video evidence of any of those strategies being used consistently by a player who practices the character, and making sure that the evidence provided is versus players who are at least top 100 global, not your garbage local scene.

The most important thing you can do for this project is look at tournament results. Not just placings, but who the character beat to get there, and what character those opponent's were playing. Watch the tournament videos if they are available. Point out if either of the players were straight up just missing some key aspect of the matchup, causing them to lose. Do. The. Research.


Relic of the Past
Sep 14, 2002
The Netherlands
I don't think there is much wrong with taking consensus if the group of voters is large enough. Assuming all voters are qualified and operate under similar definitions of what a tier list is, at the very least you will get a reflection of how the community feels. Discussion is required though more or less, it's kind of silly if everyone is just making a list under their own criteria and no one is really responding to one another. That's a flaw the PAL tier list always had, because it was hard to get everyone from different countries actively discussing. The amount of voters (including all top players) did go a long way in compensating for that, but yeah. I feel like the MBR really has failed in the discussion aspect, because one Skype chat was more fruitful than usage of this entire room. I also think Peepee was the only one out of the top 5 to have a vote.

I agree with Cactuar that there ideally needs to be more data backing the tier list. The latest Brawl tier list was based on votes, the matchup chart and monetary winnings. Brawl though is lucky to have several people collecting data and the community got together under the BBR's wings to make a matchup chart, so there are more resources to look into. We also tend to lock the range in which people can vote characters, essentially taking the previous tier list as a basis. Melee's online community is stuck in 5 years ago and has deteriorated on top of that, so the MBR probably needs to be more proactive in creating resources.

Umbreon raises some good points that this tier list brings nothing new to the table, it's just a smaller/somewhat different group agreeing on something. I'm curious what actually changed in the order as opposed to last time.

On the subject of rulesets... With the BBR we tend to take the most used/influential ruleset into account when we do something, so it's grounded in reality. I'd say for both games it wouldn't hurt to just assume APEX rules, which happens to be a very good middle ground for not just the US, but the entire world.
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