2012 King Dedede Matchup Export #4 - Ganondorf

[KuroganeHammer]

King Dedede Matchup Export #4 - Ganondorf​

Official SWF Matchup Chart v2.0 Says: -3​

Things we can discuss:​

1. How does Dedede's ground game fare versus Ganondorf?
2. How does Dedede's air game fare versus Ganondorf?
3. Can Dedede gimp or disrupt Ganondorf's recovery? How does Ganondorf fare offstage versus Dedede?
4. Can Ganondorf gimp Dedede? How does Dedede fare offstage versus Ganondorf?
5. Is Ganondorf easy to grab and/or chaingrab? Can we chaingrab him?
6. Can Dedede shield pressure Ganondorf, and with what attacks can he do so with? Can Ganondorf also shield pressure Dedede?
7. Can Dedede punish Ganondorf's attacks easily on shield? And vice versa?

Character/moveset specifics:

How should Dedede optimally deal with:
Dair
Side B
Uair
Bair
Are there any other moves that Dedede should be aware of?

Stages
UNITY RULESET STAGES ONLY PLEASE
Should be obvious already, but I'm just making it clear.​

Which starter stages should Dedede strike?
Which counterpicks should Dedede take Ganondorf?
Which counterpicks should Dedede ban versus Ganondorf?
Where is Ganondorf likely to take us?

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Before we begin though, there are some ground rules that need to be covered, and these will apply to all MU rediscussion threads.

1) Avoid large amounts of bias please. For example, you might consistently destroy Meta Knight, but that does NOT mean the matchup is +4 in Dedede's favour. Do NOT let a single victory over somebody be a basis for your contribution.

2) Keep the scaling for matchups consistant. We will be using the -4 to +4 scale to summarize the matchup. Here is a rundown of the scale:

-4: (close to) unwinnable
-3: large disadvantage/hard countered
-2: medium disadvantage
-1: small disadvantage
0: even
+1: small advantage
+2: medium advantage
+3: large advantage/hard counter
+4: (close to) unloseable

Keep in mind, the first number in the ratio will always refer to King Dedede. Please do your best to pick one number, rather than something in between two integers. There are NO other possible matchup ratios besides -4, -3, -2, -1, 0, +1, +2, +3, and +4.

3) Please be reasonable! If the majority of people say Dedede vs. Meta Knight is -3, then try not to say the matchup is 0 unless you are able to back this up with hard evidence.

Finally, it is a difficult task, but please try to contribute as much as possible!

 

[KuroganeHammer]

It's my opinion that Ganondorf is a character that heavily punishes mistakes. The crux of this matchup is to make sure that you stay as far away from Ganondorf as possible. I fear matchup inexperience makes people just go "lol ganondorf" and rush in without thinking. Of course, us approaching, imo, makes Ganondorf's life so much easier because he can easily punish mistakes with his uair, dair, Side B or even Jab/dtilt.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

What options does Ganon have to actually get a shot at winning this? To me this is a clear +4 for DDD.

 

[DLA]

This is a dumb*** matchup.


And when a Ganon main is saying this, you can take his word for it.


All DDD has to do is shield grab everything, or back roll if you think Ganon's gonna try to side B your shield. Back roll DESTROYS Ganon. And when you inevitably grab Ganon with your ******** grab range because you shielded or back rolled away from one of his attacks, all you have to do is CG him to the edge and grab release him. This sets up a 50/50 where Ganon has to use his double jump either early or late in order to recover. Guess which one correctly and back air him, and he dies.

Seriously, that's all you need to know about the matchup. I don't even care that I'm helping DDD mains **** Ganon even harder by typing this. I gave up on playing this matchup long, long ago. Get @ my Falco scurbs.



Edit: +4 for DDD

 

[Xubble]

Yeah, Ganon can punish stupid stuff. And that's it. Dedede just wastes Ganon. The only reason the MU isn't +4 D3 is because he can't do a standing/walking infinite like he can on Bowser and DK.

 

[bubbaking]

Well, that was a long and intense MU discussion! XD I guess I'll keep putting the same replies I've been putting for all the MU exports so far. Let me know if something's off.

1. How does Dedede's ground game fare versus Ganondorf?
2. How does Dedede's air game fare versus Ganondorf?
3. Can Dedede gimp or disrupt Ganondorf's recovery? How does Ganondorf fare offstage versus Dedede?
4. Can Ganondorf gimp Dedede? How does Dedede fare offstage versus Ganondorf?
5. Is Ganondorf easy to grab and/or chaingrab? Can we chaingrab him?
6. Can Dedede shield pressure Ganondorf, and with what attacks can he do so with? Can Ganondorf also shield pressure Dedede?
7. Can Dedede punish Ganondorf's attacks easily on shield? And vice versa?

1. Dedede's ground game is summed up by two words. GRAB HIM! To be more explicit, D3 does not have to approach. He can camp with Waddles for the whole match if Ganon lets him. He could probably also spam ftilt on him pretty safely. Ganon's grab range kinda sucks, so I doubt he'll be punishing things with a grab often. Nothing Ganon does outside of lagless dairs, bairs, and uairs is safe. Everything is shieldgrabbable. If Ganon actually manages to get a good read off, it can lead to big damage for one hit, but that's it, unless he manages to grab you with sideB. Ganon's sideB could lead to tech-chases for Ganon, but get out of that and you're instantly back in the advantageous position. Someone mentioned that D3 can just roll back to avoid Ganon's sideB, but I feel like it could just be ftilted on reaction. It seems slow enough for that...

2. Dedede only needs one aerial to **** Ganon's entire air game: BAIR! It stuffs fair, it beats dair and uair, and at worst, it trades with nair and bair. Add in D3's other aerials and Ganon's air game is pretty much garbage in this MU.

3. Ganon is one of the most easily gimped chars in the game. Oftentimes, he only has 3 choices: upB early, upB late, or sideB to the stage/ledge. The first two, and most common, options can be gimped completely with a read and a bair or fair. Don't make the mistake of staying on the ledge if your invincibility has run out; the darkness hitbox on the end of the upB could stage-spike you. Ganon's sideB is a little more situational. It can be easily guessed that a vengeful Ganon might just go for the kamikaze suicide, especially if he's a stock ahead or has a damage deficiency, but one thing some players are not ready for is the grab armor. Don't be fooled! Ally lost the Ganon Gauntlet at Apex 2012 this way. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gPu-TlfcDhs#t=9m33s

4. Yes, Ganon can gime D3, but it's not very practical. Unless he manages to read an action and punish with a really hard aerial or take advantage of D3's Super Dedede Jump, it's probably not gonna happen. Ganon's dair is not a true spike (there are none, iirc), so it can be quickly meteor cancelled, which comes easily for D3 cuz he can just use one of his multiple midair jumps.

5. Ganon is easy to grab and very easy to CG. He may not be Bowser or DK, but he's still extremely easy. We can pretty much shieldgrab any attack aside from maybe dair. At the end of the CG, we can either dthrow>ftilt for damage, fthrow for damage and to send Ganon fairly far offstage, or simply GR to put Ganon in a really bad position, especially if it's a pummel release.

6. D3 can shield pressure with ftilt. I don't think Ganon has anything oos that can adequately punish ftilt. Also, the fear of being grabbed is quite nice 'pressure'. Ganon can't shield pressure with anything except lagless dairs into a move of his choice. It might catch some by surprise to see Ganon dair straight into ftilt or something, but after a while, it should be pretty easy to see coming, since the dair is fairly easy to react to.

7. Dedede can pretty much shieldgrab everything. Ganon might get a dair, bair, nair, or uair oos, but those are all one-time punishes and tbh, they're fairly easy to avoid. Imho, Ganon actually suffers from having to execute his aerials a little too high since he can't SHFFL them. This means bair will often miss if Ganon tries to punish, say, a dtilt from D3 on his shield behind him.

To be fair, most players who actually main Ganon are quite good at getting reads. They have to be, since Ganon is a char that doles out nearly all of his damage and kills from punishes and such even though almost all of his moves are totally unsafe and punishable. Therefore, don't underestimate Ganon just because he's bottom-tier and whatnot. You may find yourself surprised. Still, if you play with a cool head, you can pretty much flowchart and win fairly easily.

Edit: How should Dedede optimally deal with:

Dair - Shieldgrab it if he's in front of you, but be ready to deal with an instaneous attack after the dair.
Side B - Dodge it with a roll or ftilt it.
Uair - Don't be above Ganon. D3 should be level with or below Ganon anyway.
Bair - Don't be in a punishable position behind Ganon. Ganon has to kinda release his bair a bit high off the ground to make it lagless, so it kinda sucks...

Are there any other moves that Dedede should be aware of?

Jab? I actually find Ganon's jab to be pretty annoying, but it's definitely shieldgrabbable.

 

[DLA]

Dash attack is Ganon's best move IMO. Fresh dash attack probably kills DDD at 130 or so. It's a good move for punishing landings (or punishing anything really).

Also wizkick is good, since it lasts long, punishes landings well, and beats spot dodges. That and Dair is why I don't recommend trying to abuse spot dodge against Ganon, despite how ******** DDD's spot dodge is. Seriously your character is broken lol. /bitter

 

[bubbaking]

But doesn't wizkick get punished pretty hard cuz of how much it lags upon hitting a shield? Not only that, I play Melee, so I find Ganon's wizkick in this game to be quite slow and easy to react to.

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

That's why you use the wizzy foot when DDD isn't shielding. Plus, edge canceling it is awesome.

 

[bubbaking]

In Brawl, is Ganon's wizkick like it is in Melee where a lot of things trade with or beat it out and some chars can crouch under it?

 

[DLA]

Wizkick is generally a pretty awful move, but it serves a purpose. It's a big, slow moving hitbox that lasts for nearly an entire second... Which means that it punishes landings, spot dodges, and bad spacing very well.

Unfortunately it's easy to punish and doesn't really kill. For most characters this would be a useless move, but Ganon can make good use of it because it knocks his opponents in the air and puts them in a situation where they have to land against Ganondorf. Ganon loves these situations and gets a very large chunk of his damage from punishing landings.

Missed/shielded wizkick = free punish though, so Ganon either needs to be really careful or really confident in order to use it effectively.


In this matchup, DDDs Bair wrecks wizkick, so don't expect to see it unless you're trying to land.

 

[bubbaking]

I'm thinking that D3 could also probably swallow wizkick.

Edit: 1111 posts!

 

[Kite0692]

With so many hard matchups why the hell are you discussing this?

 

[KuroganeHammer]

It was a request that we do low, obscure matchups before continuing into high tier.

Honestly we should know the top/high tier matchups by now, and if you don't, then that's terrible.

 

[Kite0692]

Lol I mean, If it´s supossed to be a low tier then why not samus or I dont know? But ok If it was a request. I just wanted to know.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

No worries. I'll start up another thread soon since I've been kinda lazy and I don't think we're gonna get far with Ganondorf's thread. Seems like everyone's pretty happy with +4 for Dedede lol.

 

[bubbaking]

Hmmmmm, +4? Idk... But I think our next obscure MU discussion should be about Shielda. She beats us +1, according to the MU chart.

 

[ZTD | TECHnology]

I'm probably the only Dedede in the US that has extensive, real knowledge of that MU ..lmao. Dedede vs Sheilda like never happens.

Okay, that's an exaggeration. But still, I'd vote for some other MU first. Some mid tier or something.

 

[bubbaking]

Isn't Shielda mid-tier? Anyway, how about Luigi? I find him a bit weird to fight against...

 

[allshort17]

Sonic! Sonic!

 

[bubbaking]

Is there a thread where we can request and possibly vote on MUs to discuss? A poll could be made, you know, the kind that shows up at the top of the thread and stops showing up once it's answered.

 

[Kite0692]

I agree with Bison

 

[KuroganeHammer]

Sure, feel free to make a thread/poll.

I wonder if I can use my powers to change/edit polls? Hmm...

But yeah. Like I said, feel free to make a 'lets decide the next MU' thread.

 

[Kite0692]

Just to talk a little ´bout this matchup I think you should shield everything but the side B...which you should dodge. Everything should lead to a chaingrab to the ledge and grab release :3. Then play as gay as you can, run away and time out him. That would be hilarious.

 

[bubbaking]

That would be very possibly, but imo, (good) Ganons are good at countering all kinds of 'gay play,' like time-outs. They could force you to slip up and give a hard punish. Xp

 

[0mart]

Yes and then use side B ---> neutral B.

 

[Kite0692]

That would be very possibly, but imo, (good) Ganons are good at countering all kinds of 'gay play,' like time-outs. They could force you to slip up and give a hard punish. Xp

Ganon using the X factor? lol

 

[Wilmenz]

And Guile's theme as background music. On a more serious note, I've seen Vermanubis affirm that Dedede is easily Ganon's worst match up.

 

[Vermanubis]

And Guile's theme as background music. On a more serious note, I've seen Vermanubis affirm that Dedede is easily Ganon's worst match up.

I may've said that at once point, but I completely disagree at this point.

In my opinion, he's not even in his top 5 worst. I was able to go neck and neck with Vex's D3 at Apex.

His CG and BAirs make everything a pain in the ***, but he's so wide open to DAirs and Aerudo (aerial side-b) that it almost seems even at times. Not to say it is, by any means, as I do think it's -3, but it's -3 by virtue of a general advantage in all areas, rather than a strong one in a few or many, like ICs.

Also, long time no see, Will!

 

[bubbaking]

Besides, it can't be Ganon's worst MU if it's not listed as a -4 when he actually has listed -4 MUs.

 

[bubbaking]

Sure, feel free to make a thread/poll.

I wonder if I can use my powers to change/edit polls? Hmm...

But yeah. Like I said, feel free to make a 'lets decide the next MU' thread.

Well, I just made a thread, but I found out that only Premium Members are allowed to create polls. I'm not really ready to pay money just to make a poll, so unless someone else does it, we'll have to make do with a simple discussion.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

That's fine, I'll just manually count up the votes.

 

[bubbaking]

This is it:
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=321871

 

[Wilmenz]

I may've said that at once point, but I completely disagree at this point.

In my opinion, he's not even in his top 5 worst. I was able to go neck and neck with Vex's D3 at Apex.

His CG and BAirs make everything a pain in the ***, but he's so wide open to DAirs and Aerudo (aerial side-b) that it almost seems even at times. Not to say it is, by any means, as I do think it's -3, but it's -3 by virtue of a general advantage in all areas, rather than a strong one in a few or many, like ICs.

Also, long time no see, Will!

Well im glad summoning you cleared this up, thank you for your help.

 

[bubbaking]

We can't even make the claim to fame of being in Ganon's top 5 worst MUs if he has six listed -4's. Still, you know this is a terrible MU when one of the nation's best Ganons is using his match against not one of the nation's best D3s as evidence. No offense intended; just sayin'...

 

[Kite0692]

Well I would just like to discuss matchup that aren´t +3 for DDD and we should be playing a lot in tourneys, like or

 

[allshort17]

Well I would just like to discuss matchup that aren´t +3 for DDD and we should be playing a lot in tourneys, like or

Because those MUs are played all the time. Eveyone pretty much knows them and they've been discussed every time a matchup thread pops up. Our "easier" lower tier MU's are only good if you know them, but they are common so who knows them? Samus would probably feel like a -1 if you didn't know how to fight her.

 

[bubbaking]

Eh, Samus is stretching it. I could say that Lucas would feel like a +2 instead of a +3 if you didn't know how to fight him, even though it's the most straightforward thing ever.