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2012 King Dedede Matchup Export #3 - Falco

allshort17

Smash Ace
Joined
Jun 5, 2010
Messages
574
Location
Gwinnett county, GA
Good write up, however you did say some things I can't really agree with.

1. Dair is a good move to appraoch him: Sure, I like to use Dair too. However, it's benefits aren't that great. Dair has little horizontal range, so it's very easy to whiff the move. Even if you were close enough where the start up has the ability to hit Falco, that means you got to close and that's exactly what he wants. Also, dair requires you to commit to it. So, you can't really run away with it or pressure very well because Dedede doesn't have the air mobility to make it safe. Even with multiple jumps, Dedede has to land sometime and it will be close to Falco. So, he got the advantage. I personally like to just pivot grab and ftilt for damage and throw in a few inhales and bairs if I feel like he won't laser me. Dair is only good as a situational mix-up, but outside of that it's actually unsafe.

2. Falco doesn't have good approach options: Falco's laser are one of the few moves in the game that have positive frame advantage on shield. He can do as many as he wants and you can't do much about it. If you jump or attack you get hit. Wanna power shield? He sees you shielding and he get's a free dash grab. His nair isn't a bad option for approaching and his roll is fast enough where if it isn't abused he can get away with is easily.

3. Falco's kill moves are Upsmash and Fsmash: That's correct, just don't forget about Dsmash, bair, and dair spike. Bair's easy to get if you like to jump and Dsmash can be used to punish you landings. Dair spike is easy to get on Dedede because

*He is big
*He has little air mobility to escape them
*His UpB gives Falco a big chance to get one
*Lasers allow Falco to take away Dedede's jumps offstage, forcing him to UpB.

4. Fox deals damage faster than Falco: Slightly, but Falco's lasers set up for combos and frame traps at all percents. Falco has an easy to get jab lock, and even after CG % Falco's Dthrow still sets-up great opportunities for follow ups. Oh, and don't forget jab cancel combos.


I also think that Yoshi's island can be used more as a CP. If the platform is tilted down, then it will absorb laser, forcing Falco to only be able to do very low lasers or making him after to go under the platform. Either way, it makes approaching a little easier. Did you also know that our short hopped bair goes over his jab? Try it when you are close to him. I also think the MU is -2 even if played perfectly.
 

Kite0692

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Oct 18, 2010
Messages
245
Location
Dominican Republic
That´s the point of the matchup: the mixups. By te way, I´d say Dair is a better option at low % because of the chaingrab.
Yes you are right, Falco's laser are one of the few moves in the game that have positive frame advantage on shield, but he must be really close to make it work and just playing against him from really close sucks.
Down smash puts you in an horrible position, I forgot to say that.


I got some question: After Down smash hits, can it be teched? What´s the best way to use Inhale in this matchup? Can someone try Nair -> grab ?(Low %).
 

bubbaking

Smash Hero
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Baldwin, NY, USA or Alexandria, VA, USA (Pick one)
If you get a grab at low % in the ledge then you can convert it on a stock (you could use Dthrow or grab release).
You wouldn't use fthrow or bthrow? Those throws are highly damaging and, at higher %'s, can send Falco pretty far offstage.

If you think he goes for the ledge then grab it first (lol).
Be careful about this. If he suspects you're going for this, he can phantasm early and meteor you, putting you in a really bad position. He could even get a spike follow-up.

On a side note I should say that when Falco chaingrab --> spike you he can follow you offstage. Since :dedede: Uair sucks he can go for a footstool. And no, you can´t do anything about this.
I disagree with this. I think D3's uair is a great move, especially if you're in a pinch offstage. He has multiple jumps, so if you got sent off from just the CG, using uair once, or even twice, should be fine. It has great range and should beat out Falco's dair. Also, Falco's a fast faller so this move should be harder for him to SDI. Finally, if Falco actually gets hit by this move while following you, he is probably gonna end up in a bad spot offstage.

All in all, though, that was a pretty nice write-up. Good job! :)

3. Falco's kill moves are Upsmash and Fsmash: That's correct, just don't forget about Dsmash, bair, and dair spike. Bair's easy to get if you like to jump
To be fair, he did say that bair was the move Falco would be killing D3 with most often.

I got some question: After Down smash hits, can it be teched? What´s the best way to use Inhale in this matchup? Can someone try Nair -> grab ?(Low %).
I believe Falco's dsmash should be techable, cuz it puts you in tumble animation. It might just be really tight timing since the move sends you at such a low trajectory. Inhale is best used to catch a spot-dodge, shield, or other highly-committing action, as allshort pointed out to me before somewhere else. I doubt it's too useful against Falco except for covering your landing or to catch a roll/air dodge. As for nair>grab, I doubt it works on hit. I know nair>utilt works at low %'s on pretty much the entire cast, so that's a decent damage-racking option. Nair does have fairly low landing lag (the lowest out of all his aerials, iirc) so nair>grab could be be a decent mixup option on Falco's shield.
 

Kite0692

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Oct 18, 2010
Messages
245
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I wanted to say Nair (on hit) > grab. Nair on shield is unsafe /:

EDIT:

I don´t like to use Fthrow because it´s just too DIable =/. I feel like there is a better chance to get a gimp out of this than Fthrow.
 

bubbaking

Smash Hero
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Messages
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Baldwin, NY, USA or Alexandria, VA, USA (Pick one)
I wanted to say Nair (on hit) > grab. Nair on shield is unsafe /:
Well, I gave my opinion on nair (on hit)>grab. I don't think it would be too useful except for at super-low %'s, like at 0. Utilt comes out faster than grab does, I think.

my mm vs nexus falco.
What about it? Did you want to post a link or something? :/
 

1PokeMastr

Smash Champion
Joined
Dec 10, 2009
Messages
2,251
Edit...

Damn, Either Nexus isn't as good as I thought he was, or you really know the Mu.
 

Lazee

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Jan 26, 2009
Messages
168
lol ill take that as a compliment,nexus is good! i just have that dehf training so i feel comfterble in the matchup....falco has the chaingrab on dede but he cant kill til d3 is at lik 150 anyway so the match up stays pretty close if you can avoid kill moves..

theres a socal smashfest tomorrow so ill have some more uploads for the boards soon
 

Exdeath

Smash Master
Joined
Sep 20, 2009
Messages
3,006
Location
Florida
People should go watch 4GOD vs Kismet. Helped me fill in some of the holes about the MU, I had previously. He's pretty precise with every phase of the MU.

This MU isn't even that bad. -2 at the worst but I feel like its in between -1 and -2 personally. I fear MK, Oli, and Diddy a lot more.
What it should fill you in on is that 4GOD gets wrecked unless Kismet is playing stupidly.
 

shaSLAM

Smash Lord
Joined
Oct 22, 2008
Messages
1,264
Location
AL
Kismet told me the only reason he loses to 4god is because 4god camps him.

not really sure how or what he meant cuz he's the one with laser.... but thats what he said...
 

allshort17

Smash Ace
Joined
Jun 5, 2010
Messages
574
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Gwinnett county, GA
I'll say PS1 because water only helps his spike, he can abuse walk-offs while we can't, and the platform layout and the main level allows for him to get a few more recovery options. On PS1. the lip really only hurts his recovery (although he can wall jump). Also, because of all the obstacles in the way then it makes controllable space smaller, meaning he has less room to camp and he has to approach more. The Ceiling is high so it's a win/lose. If you are scared of Upsmash then it's good, but it's bad if you like to kill with uptilt. Personally, I'd rather take away from his killing ability then add to mine.
 

Bobwithlobsters

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Oct 21, 2007
Messages
421
Location
Oakdale MN
Only problem with ps1 is when falco sets up under one of the two little side platforms he is really safe from approach from both air due to the platform and ground from lasers. I do love picking stages with bad edges and watching falco screw up.

:phone:
 

4GOD (JJV)

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Oct 20, 2009
Messages
172
Location
Georgia Tech
Hey DewDaDash,

I like taking Falco to Brinstar and PS1 (I tend to live forever on PS1). Lylat is fine, I just dont like the fact that I cant camp well since there arent any high platforms.

I think Battlefield is the best starter.

I tried Delfino, and it worked alright...until Kismet destroyed my sharking. After that one game, I never returned to it. I seem to do better on PS1.
 

DewDaDash

Smash Lord
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エレクトリッ
Hmm.. mayb brinstar, never really considered that. Only problem is if they cp mk then that plan backfires so I guess I'd really need to know if the person uses mk too or not.

PS1 is pretty good ill agree. I'll have to test what works best for me I guess, ty for the input.
 

Exdeath

Smash Master
Joined
Sep 20, 2009
Messages
3,006
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Florida
Hmm.. mayb brinstar, never really considered that. Only problem is if they cp mk then that plan backfires so I guess I'd really need to know if the person uses mk too or not.

PS1 is pretty good ill agree. I'll have to test what works best for me I guess, ty for the input.
Since when is :metaknight: legal in Florida?
 

Bobwithlobsters

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Oct 21, 2007
Messages
421
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Oakdale MN
4god, what is your opinion of fd in this matchup? I feel it is similar to ps1 in that you live forever but there is no platforms for falco to use for more recovery options.

:phone:
 

Bobwithlobsters

Smash Journeyman
Joined
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Messages
421
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Oakdale MN
I have way more trouble fighting falco on battlefield than on fd. I feel I can corner falco much better on fd. I just feel so vulnerable above falco. I don't like having falco hide under platforms from me. I'm wondering what other people think of this.

:phone:
 

Exdeath

Smash Master
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Sep 20, 2009
Messages
3,006
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Florida
1 of those isnt fl, and the other 2 dont play anymore. regardless, doubt it.
All three are in Florida, all three still play, and I will side bet you $5 that they will beat you if you $10+ MM their Falco(s).
 

DewDaDash

Smash Lord
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Sure I'd MM any of them for 10$-15$, but they dont play falco nor do they play this game. And if they play an mm it has to be DDD vs falco, no switching chars.

I've noticed, you sure do like to underestimate me >_>"
 

Exdeath

Smash Master
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Sep 20, 2009
Messages
3,006
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Sure I'd MM any of them for 10$-15$, but they dont play falco nor do they play this game. And if they play an mm it has to be DDD vs falco, no switching chars.

I've noticed, you sure do like to underestimate me >_>"
All of them play Brawl, and those MM conditions were what I was talking about. We'll see if it's underestimation once the match(es) are done.
 

OverLade

Smash Hero
Joined
Jun 19, 2006
Messages
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Tampa, FL
LOOOOL Dew. I definitely played you with Falco before and bodied you for free. Friendlies at the WATO that M2K showed up to.

I don't even play this game and I'll throw down $20 for a 4/7 if you're down. Also if you lose you have to quit Dedede, if I lose, I'll quit falco ;)
 

Exdeath

Smash Master
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Sep 20, 2009
Messages
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LOOOOL Dew. I definitely played you with Falco before and bodied you for free. Friendlies at the WATO that M2K showed up to.

I don't even play this game and I'll throw down $20 for a 4/7 if you're down. Also if you lose you have to quit Dedede, if I lose, I'll quit falco ;)
As long as I get my $5.
 

bubbaking

Smash Hero
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Since it seems like Brinstar, PS2, and RC are gonna be out of the Brawl picture for a while now, I really feel like D3's best CP against Falco is Frigate. On the first part of the stage, if you can manage to throw him off the right side, his recovery options become really limited. It's a little easier for him to laser camp on the second part, thanks to the slopes and that platform in the middle, but I still think it's fairly easy to eventually throw him and proceed from there, although those moving platforms can be annoying... -_-
 

DewDaDash

Smash Lord
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LOOOOL Dew. I definitely played you with Falco before and bodied you for free. Friendlies at the WATO that M2K showed up to.

I don't even play this game and I'll throw down $20 for a 4/7 if you're down. Also if you lose you have to quit Dedede, if I lose, I'll quit falco ;)
lmao, a year gone and your still quite familiar with name searching yourself. Why would it matter if you quit falco, ur a mk main. You'd have to quit mk to make me accept =). You mind it being 10$ snake and 10$ falco Best 3/5?

Red Halberd, I don't really remember playing your falco at wato, I don't think I was even there when m2k was at that wato. I hope your not referring to the wato 2 years ago lol. Only wato I remember was when you raged quit against seibrik. Although I do remember playing ur falco a bit at my tourney which was good practice at the time.
 
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