2010 Official NTSC Tier List : Votes

[SwiftBass]

wow

uh wow

 

[Pink Reaper]

Yo who the **** gave the list to GrimFandango?

 

[Slhoka]

Yo who the **** gave the list to GrimFandango?

I'm gonna post it on facebook

I must say I don't think it was a good idea.

 

[Druggedfox]

Loooool

Hungrybox too good with triple posts and facebook leaks

 

[Pink Reaper]

Im gonna have someone close that list so we can make an actual full on Tier List thread, you know one that one of us is in control of and that has all of the info compiled into it.

Hbox dont do something stupid like that again.

 

[Slhoka]

Im gonna have someone close that list so we can make an actual full on Tier List thread, you know one that one of us is in control of and that has all of the info compiled into it.

Thank you.
I posted the topic : http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?p=11896261#post11896261

If you spot something missing, not working, or whatever, please tell me. Same goes for the text : do not hesitate to correct my mistakes or improve the style.

Edit: And I'm still a Marth/Fox main, don't know why I'm listed as Fox only after I allready told you that. See that Icon down there?

It's Marth.

Sorry I tend to forget things easily. I fixed the mistake.

 

[hungrybox]

I'm sorry!

Please close the thread and I'll delete my facebook post!

My b!!!

 

[Slhoka]

I'm sorry!

Please close the thread and I'll delete my facebook post!

My b!!!

That's a bit too late, Pink Reaper made a good jobn, and now that I posted the list, your facebook post could have stayed

It wasn't that bad, but it's better for us to control the information we provide.

Edit : And again, are there some other people interested in having the same sort of vote, but for the entire smash community ? On the one hand I think it could be extremely interesting, but on the other hand I think it could be detrimental to the list we just made (it could turn some sort of clash between "the people's list" and "the MBR list").

 

[Pink Reaper]

i still think it should be called "Ice Climbers are 8th: The NTSC Tier List"

 

[Fly_Amanita]

The standard deviation for the characters' rankings should be shown so people can see just how 8th the ICs really are.

 

[SleepyK]

hbox next time let's not jump the gun on posting MBR stuff <3

 

[Pink Reaper]

Im gonna have a Smod change the threads title to:

"Ice Climbers Are 8th: The NTSC 2010 Tier List"

Anyone opposed?

 

[DoH]

druggedfox but he's a douche

 

[SleepyK]

douchedfox

 

[Druggedfox]

I'm pretty sure at least 1-2 other people didn't put ICs as 8th. Maybe my mind was playing tricks on me at the time though =P

I are douche

 

[Pink Reaper]

Taj is watching this thread. I can see him.

 

[forward]

Man, I like how I had the most deviation from the current tier list. But then again, I made some radical placements on purpose to try to bump up characters I thought would be under represented. They're not so ridiculous though that they're impractical.

 

[unknown522]

I see......

but yeah, lol @ pikachu in 9th.

and marth in 7th.

 

[Druggedfox]

I lol'd more at peach two tiers above marth

 

[DoH]

Psh, no one plays Marth.

And Mike G also voted ICs not eight, but he's grandma peach so I blame that on not taking her meds

 

[forward]

Taj and I had the same top 10. I, and I think Taj as well, put less emphasis on how easy it is to play a character and more emphasis on the chances of running into an opponent in tournament who can fight your character better than you can fight their character. This is why we didn't put Fox as #1; he is so common that if you use Fox it is likely that your opponent has more experience fighting Fox than you have of fighting the character your opponent is using. For example, I'd argue Jiggs and Sheik players have more experience fighting Fox than Fox players have against them, in such a close match I'd say that tilts it in favor of Jiggs and Sheik. Fox is a great character but when playing him at a national in the top 32 man bracket which has a lot of diversity there is a high chance of running into a character who has more match experience vs Fox than you have against them.

Peach, I rated her higher than Marth because of Armada vs M2K results and her match up vs other chars. Peach has better match ups against more characters ranked above them than Marth does, imo. Peach does better against Falco, Sheik, Jiggs, than Marth does, and have about equal results against Fox and Falcon. I also think Peach does better against the current B and C tier list, and Pikachu.

 

[unknown522]

peach does worse vs fox, jiggs, and falcon. And maybe the same vs falco. She definiely doesn't do better though

Marth players need to step it up.

 

[Druggedfox]

In NTSC peach doesn't honestly do that well vs sheik either >_________>

 

[DoH]

Ehh, I feel like Peach has a slight advantage over Falco, Jiggs and Sheik, goes even with Falcon and Marth, and has a slight disadvantage with Fox.

 

[Pink Reaper]

Really? Even with Marth? Southwest gotta step it up apparently.

 

[DoH]

No one is developing Marth's metagame while Peach is getting better at punishing him, she can camp him, and can combo him very well. Also she can clank with a lot of his stuff, forcing a reset.

 

[Armada]

Nah in NTSC Peach is not that good.
Fox is not even close to be the same for Peach and Marth.
Ntsc changes a lot of matchups to much worse.

She better against Falco (a bit cause i think Marth is way underrated atm cause no one play him)
She´s not better against Jiggs (not even close)
Falcon: i wanna say Marth is better there.
Shiek in Pal Peach for sure. In ntsc kinda close
Marth have advantage against Peach to.

Ntsc is gay

 

[SwiftBass]

yeah like marth vs peach even in ntsc? a bit much. def an over looked matchup in which ppl assume marth ***** but like DEF NOT even. marth is better by a significant margin.


peach > falco head to head? pretty bold....

jiggs beats her though hands down

 

[forward]

On average, Fox beats peach but great peach players can play that match to be even.
On average, Marth beats Fox but great fox players can play that match to be even.

Peach beats Falco. This seems like a no brainer to me as a Falco player and its the reason you see so many Falco players use Fox for the match up.

Peach/Marth vs Jiggs. I dunno know, not a lot of evidence for either side I think. Hbox won pretty hard last time he played AR but when was the last great marth vs puff match?

Falcon owns Peach and Marth pretty soundly IMO so I say they are even. I would tip it slightly towards peach doing better because she has a better ledge guard against Falcon.

 

[Druggedfox]

Peach has a better ledgeguard vs falcon than marth does? Falcon owns marth?

...

???



More importantly:

Switching from falco to fox for the matchup? At a top level? Maybe in 07, or if your name is zhu =PPP Being more serious, wouldn't a better explanation than falco having a disadvantage be that fox does better? I mean, if falco beats a character 60/40 and fox beats a character 70/30 (generic numbers) that would also be a reason to switch to fox. I hardly think switching character automatically qualifies it as a "no brainer".

 

[DoH]

Hbox said something to the effect of "my matches with you at times were more difficult than Armada" to me after Apex - we played in pools - I'm not sure if he was just being nice or if he was sincere, but I think puffs (especially with Juan's style) work well against Armada's Peach style.

Armada has elevated the Peach vs Fox punish game so well that I think it's a lot closer that people have said. Fox can't afford to make a mistake, and she can counter most of his approaches into downsmash > death. If he camps, things do get difficult, but most people are bad at camping/won't do it. Armada supposedly ruined jman at the tournament where they played, even three stocking him one match, and he's the posterboy for camping.

And Marth has an extremely hard time killing Peach nowadays without getting her to like 180. But no one really plays Marth at a high level anymore, so it's hard to tell. But based on the empirical evidence, it seems Peaches have caught up to the Marths.

 

[Deleted member]

Hbox said something to the effect of "my matches with you at times were more difficult than Armada" to me after Apex - we played in pools - I'm not sure if he was just being nice or if he was sincere, but I think puffs (especially with Juan's style) work well against Armada's Peach style.

Armada has elevated the Peach vs Fox punish game so well that I think it's a lot closer that people have said. Fox can't afford to make a mistake, and she can counter most of his approaches into downsmash > death. If he camps, things do get difficult, but most people are bad at camping/won't do it. Armada supposedly ruined jman at the tournament where they played, even three stocking him one match, and he's the posterboy for camping.

And Marth has an extremely hard time killing Peach nowadays without getting her to like 180. But no one really plays Marth at a high level anymore, so it's hard to tell. But based on the empirical evidence, it seems Peaches have caught up to the Marths.

good foxes don't approach peach because they don't have to. even without lasers, fox can move and attack faster than peach can just move. the match is just bad. marth can camp her to good effect and beats her in a similar manner, but that match is more control based than raw evasion. i think sheik ***** peach even worse in NTSC but sheik should get ***** pretty bad without her stupid downthrow.

that said, so long as people are unwilling to camp peach, she has a VERY legitimate shot to win a national tournament. camping is her only real problem.

 

[DoH]

The reason I didn't really touch on camping is because no one actually does it. M2K showed some of it against armada, but then peach caught him, he had to approach, and he got three stocked. Lunin tried camping armada on floats, but no one has really just tried to nonapproach him at the top level it seems. He three stocks players like zgetto/jman/m2k's foxes... I don't think it's as one sided as you guys are making it

 

[forward]

Yea, Marth has a hard time ledge guarding Falcon. Falcon's sweet spot teleports through Marth's sword (d tilt and f smash) and he can ledge tech. Recover high, Falcon takes about 50% but when he gets back on the stage he can land a 50% combo into a knee for the stock. Marth can't combo into a KO.

Most Peach players I've talked to like playing the Falco match up. Most Falco's I've talked to don't like the match up.

I agree with D'oh 100% so far. I think Peach plays Fox the same way Fox plays Peach, with camping. They have to ignore the psychological effects the lasers play. Lasers make Peach think they have to approach but they don't. They can keep moving and throwing out lagless unpunishable attacks to make Fox mess up. Like D'oh said the punish game is really strong now.

 

[Druggedfox]

And it's 100% impossible for marth to intercept falcon before he gets to the ledge, obviously. It's not like falcon kick is easy to reverse up-b, or marth can run off fair or anything. Marth doesn't need to combo into a KO when dthrow off stage leads to death 50% of the time. The edgeguard game clearly boils down to marth sitting there passively while falcon gets to freely sweetspot and ledgetech all he wants. I think a marth that edgeguards aggressively gets a free kill on any falcon that tries to sweetspot, which forces falcon to go higher.

@DoH

I don't think its wrong at all to say that fox has an observable/clear advantage in the matchup. As usual, we should take into account that there is no fox player on armada's level, anywhere in the world. The best fox player in the world (statistically anyway) is jman, and he's a full tier below armada in terms of skill level. If we saw mango's fox vs armada (seeing as mango is a tier above armada) I'm sure we would see the same disparity in scores (occasional 3 stocks and shutting down of strategies that in theory work) that armada shows vs fox players a skill level below him. While matches between players are the only statistical evidence we have, at the same time it can be misleading imo.

 

[DoH]

I'm not denying that Fox has an advantage in the matchup - autocombos, auto-kill setups after a drill or shine, pressure to make you shield so he can uthrow you or chase you, gimps, overall mobility, but I don't think it's as drastic of a disparity that you guys are saying.

And lol at mango camping

 

[unknown522]

Peach beats Falco. This seems like a no brainer to me as a Falco player and its the reason you see so many Falco players use Fox for the match up

PP, shiz, and chops all stay falco vs peach. Zhu sometimes uses fox and loses to OoS players with him.

Falcon owns Peach and Marth pretty soundly IMO so I say they are even. I would tip it slightly towards peach doing better because she has a better ledge guard against Falcon.

what?!?!

edit: also, IB beat hax pretty badly at apex. He's one of the better falcons vs marth as well (though I think hax was playing kinda bad TBH, but it wasn't close).

Not only that, but marth's gimping power on falcon and ability to cover all options with his sword is ridiculous. A lot of times, falcon can up-b over peach and land on the stage, then she can't hit him off again (or hit him in general sometimes), whereas marth's tipper is pretty damn strong and knocks him off the stage at mid-percents guaranteed. Or if he wants, he can just combo falcon, then knock him off the stage.

 

[Deleted member]

the newer players are allowed to underrate marth. you older guys have no excuse. just because everyone sucks at the character doesn't mean that the character sucks.

so long as people don't exploit why peach is "bad", she's not a bad character.

 

[unknown522]

time to take peach down.

I'll get my gun ready...

 

[Pink Reaper]

the newer players are allowed to underrate marth. you older guys have no excuse. just because everyone sucks at the character doesn't mean that the character sucks.

so long as people don't exploit why peach is "bad", she's not a bad character.

I like that you are literally incapable of making two statements in one post without contradicting yourself.

Peach is bad. Just because everyone sucks against the character doesnt mean the character is good.