2010 Official NTSC Tier List : Votes

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Not only that, but marth's gimping power on falcon and ability to cover all options with his sword is ridiculous. A lot of times, falcon can up-b over peach and land on the stage, then she can't hit him off again (or hit him in general sometimes), whereas marth's tipper is pretty damn strong and knocks him off the stage at mid-percents guaranteed. Or if he wants, he can just combo falcon, then knock him off the stage.

See, I was thinking Falcon does the Up b over Marth and Marth is less capable of punishing that than Peach. Marth at best gets an f - smash which hits him to the other side of the stage, a lot of times though it hits him far enough that Falcon can still recover to the ledge with a sweet spot double jump. Marth's throws don't really combo to any thing, no aerials will hit hard enough to get him away. Where as Peach's dash attack > nair , up throw > nair, d smash, or f throw can keep Falcon off the ledge on the side of the stage he is closer to.

I still don't buy marth's gimping power on Falcon. Any throw off of the stage it's very easy for Falcon to double jump to the ledge with a sweet spot and not get hit by d tilt or f smash. Marth could always run off with fair or something but if Falcon jump back early with a up air or nair it can reverse the whole situation.

Falcon has guaranteed KO off of grabs, with up throw > up air > knee or d throw > knee. His forward b cuts through most of marths aerials and covers his dash dance at close range as well. Even if marth blocks he can't punish very strongly. Marth relies on tech chases and spacing to shut him down, meaning, every hit with Marth is a new hit. Not a lot combos. With Falcon, everything combos and all of those combos lead to knee. His ledge guarding against Marth is very good too. B air cuts through marths fair and forward b, up tilt catches jumps onto the stage. If Falcon ledge hogs Marth and forces him to land on the stage its a free knee, usually he can get a reverse knee to which guarantees the kill.

Falcon can spam short hop attacks against marth with low risk high reward. The attacks will jump over grabs and d tilts. Most aerials won't actually combo into anything, they will hit Falcon away but he'll still have the chance to roll against any follow up. Marth has to use mind games to follow up his attacks. I've said this before but this is why Falcon wins, Falcon doesn't have to mind game anything. One hit leads to a guaranteed combo and most of the time that combo will KO.

Even though I'm old school I don't rate marth that high because I think he has been around long enough that people have figured out how to play against him and people's tech skill has developed enough consistency that Marth's strong punish game isn't as good as it used to be. Marth is one of the least technically demanding characters, so early on in the game when people made more mistakes and couldn't play as fast with tech characters like Fox, Falco, and Peach, you'd see Marth win a lot more. People now are strong enough that they don't miss L cancels and get shield grabbed > death combo. They've seen the gimps enough time that they don't panic when thrown off the stage, they keep their nerves calm and recover with a well spaced double jump.

As for Peach, when people start beating Armada I'll consider ranking her lower. For me, one person winning consistently with a character is enough to rank them at the top, even if the character is less common. When Ken was dominating people didn't think Marth was the best, they still thought he was high but it's just that Ken was so good. People say the same thing about Mango and Hbox with Jiggs. I don't buy that, I think that because the character is less common it makes them a better character because the overall knowledge within the community on how to fight that character is lower.

$.02

 

[Deleted member]

Even though I'm old school I don't rate marth that high because I think he has been around long enough that people have figured out how to play against him and people's tech skill has developed enough consistency that Marth's strong punish game isn't as good as it used to be. Marth is one of the least technically demanding characters, so early on in the game when people made more mistakes and couldn't play as fast with tech characters like Fox, Falco, and Peach, you'd see Marth win a lot more. People now are strong enough that they don't miss L cancels and get shield grabbed > death combo. They've seen the gimps enough time that they don't panic when thrown off the stage, they keep their nerves calm and recover with a well spaced double jump.

$.02

You think marth was the dominant character for years because people got nervous or didn't l cancel? You can't seriously believe that.

 

[Divinokage]

You think marth was the dominant character for years because people got nervous or didn't l cancel? You can't seriously believe that.

Are you trolling or something? He's just saying the meta-game for spacies and the other higher tiers was not as developed with the exception of Sheik. It's simply harder for spacies to become an awesome spacie player, it requires much more technical skills.

 

[Deleted member]

Are you trolling or something? He's just saying the meta-game for spacies and the other higher tiers was not as developed with the exception of Sheik. It's simply harder for spacies to become an awesome spacie player, it requires much more technical skills.

oh, because the foxes in 2006 didn't have the tech game to play like this?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4_IUL6UTeNA

if the spacies really developed that much while other characters did not, those characters would not be viable anymore and every other cast member would have fallen behind with marth, not just that character. just admit that it's a weak argument.

 

[Druggedfox]

I still don't buy marth's gimping power on Falcon. Any throw off of the stage it's very easy for Falcon to double jump to the ledge with a sweet spot and not get hit by d tilt or f smash. Marth could always run off with fair or something but if Falcon jump back early with a up air or nair it can reverse the whole situation.

And this is precisely why marth's gimping power is so powerful on falcon.

It's a 50/50:

You either run off fair or counter (more or less everytime, though dtilt can work i suppose). If you run off fair, it beats pretty much everything besides jump back with an immediate aerial. Even at 0 damage though if you counter and the falcon aerials you, he's instant dead to a dair (even if the falcon has perfect upwards DI). How is that not amazing gimping power? Versus the best falcon player in the world I can make arbitrary guesses and have more or less a 50% chance of taking his stock at almost any percent.

 

[forward]

And this is precisely why marth's gimping power is so powerful on falcon.

It's a 50/50:

You either run off fair or counter (more or less everytime, though dtilt can work i suppose). If you run off fair, it beats pretty much everything besides jump back with an immediate aerial. Even at 0 damage though if you counter and the falcon aerials you, he's instant dead to a dair (even if the falcon has perfect upwards DI). How is that not amazing gimping power? Versus the best falcon player in the world I can make arbitrary guesses and have more or less a 50% chance of taking his stock at almost any percent.

Like I said, d tilt doesn't work because Falcon's sweet spot is so far away that he teleports through the sword to grab the ledge. Hitting with a fair below the stage isn't guaranteed KO either. The counter, yes it kills, but that's only if Falcon attacks. He's very vulnerable if he guesses wrong.

We're also talking about an extremely specific situation here. Marth has to be very close to the ledge so that he can actually run off in time to pull the fair off before Falcon DJs to the ledge if it's set up off of a throw, which most anytime Marth can actually "put" Falcon below the stage is off of d/f throw. What I mean by that last statement is that move of Marth's move do not hit Falcon below the stage, rather they hit him high above the stage. It's a high-risk / mid-high reward at best. A failed counter lets Falcon jump onto the stage with dair > grab which, at that point on the stage a d throw is super deadly because Falcon has the entire stage to combo.

So Marth has a high - risk / high - reward grab in one specific circumstance. Falcon's throw combos are low risk / high reward and they can be taken from almost anywhere on the stage.

In terms of ability to approach each other, I'd say Falcon and Marth are about equal, with maybe a slight edge going to Marth. That edge is not enough to make up for his lack of continuity on his hits compared to Falcon. Also, and this kind of relates to lack of follow ups, but I think that Falcon is able to escape from Marth's pressure better than Marth escaping Falcons. Falcons rolls are very fast and therefor safe, nair and dair out of shield are good counter options and lead to KOs. Marths rolls are easy to punish, even when the Falcon is not looking for them specifically. He can simply do nair > jab pressure and react to rolls.

There are just too many things that tip the match in Falcon's favor. I didn't really want to bring this point up because I think people can find examples to counter but I was going to point out Falcon players who have victories over Marth players. Isai beat Ken and this was back in Ken's prime, PC's Falcon beat M2K and forced him to go Fox, my Falcon can beat Taj's Marth. GG7 is beating Tai, can beat Taj, and beat other WC Marth players (i'm pretty sure he beat some in MM at DGDTJ). I'm pretty sure SS has wrecked every marth he's played recently. Darkrain was bad against Marth, I remember him having trouble with that match.

Prof Oak: You are reading my statement in entirely different ways than I said. I said nothing about characters "not developing," all I said is that people developed on how to fight marth. In general, he has become familiar for people to fight against. What made Marth dominate for so long is how few great Marth players there were which meant that overall knowledge on how to fight him was low. People didn't know what to do against him, his ledge guards, dash dances/movement, aerials, range, etc. It's the same reason I think Jiggs is the best character right now. There are so few great Jiggs that people are unfamiliar with the match and lose. It's the same reason I think Fox has rarely, if ever, been the best character. Fox players are a dime a dozen and everyone knows how to fight a Fox.

 

[unknown522]

*siiiiiiiiigh*