Quick Attack Cancel Tactics and Discussion

[Tagxy]

Update: Video's added

So before anyone blows a gasket, this isn't meant to lay claims to discoveries and names. All of that can be sorted out later. For now names will only be given in so far as they allow us to talk about this new technique. Right now, let's talk about whether this can even be affectively used in matches, and if so finding new uses for it and refining those already discovered.

Why this is potentially a big deal: From what I understand, in melee pikachu's QA was used mainly for recovery and mindgames. This not only increases the uses for both of those, but also allows you to approach with a QAC and use an aerial almost immediately afterwards. In other words, it now has a decent offensive use :D . QA is so versatile that you can come from any direction with a variety of ranges, and its so fast that opponents have to react quickly to block it, and even if they do you're usually in a good position to follow up with another attack right away.

So what is a Quick Attack Cancel (QAC)?

Definition: A quick attack that allows you to cancel your quick attack into the ground and stall in the air, leaving you able to perform aerials, jumps, etc.

So far there is only one(and very likely to be the only one) way to do this, which leads us to...

How to: Basically you have to do a QA into the ground. It can be your first QA, second QA, a verticle QA, diagnol QA, short QA, whatever. Once you hit the ground, you stall for a very brief second in the air just above the ground. From this point you can do anything you would normally do after a single jump in the air (regardless of whether you already used your second jump or not).

Uses: However, because you're so close to the ground, only two practical uses have been found that I've seen or heard of. During that brief second, you can either jump, do a dair, or any of your b attacks. Trying other aerials usually just causes you to only do the landing animation when you hit the ground and not the attack because you're so close to the ground. His dair is the only exception, and on top of this the shockwave it releases can get at the opponent.

Videos:
QAC and Tactics - shows the QAC and a few tactics described later in the post.
QAC Battle - gives a basic idea of some of QAC's uses in battle.
QAC uses - video from KPrime, has good examples of how quickly QAC can execute.
QAC examples - video from festizzio, shows how QAC might be used on stages that arent too flat.

A few notes:
1)A diagnol QAC will usually give you more momentum in the direction of the QA if you decide to jump. This can be helpful if you're trying to chase an opponent or if you're following up after an attack.
2) If you QAC through someone, the timing is different. However, you'll also have them shocked for a brief second (and canceling whatever attack they might be charging), which can be just enough time for you to execute an attack with little fear of retribution (more on that later).
3) For the QAS b attacks, the only useful one I've found (without having to do a jump first) is another Quick Attack right out of the QAS. The other ones could be useful in certain situations, but generally the startup time for the attacks leaves you vulnerable for awhile.
4) You can actually do the QAC jump very easily by holding up on the joystick as you hit the ground if you have joystick jump on. However, then you'll have problems with doing QA's out of QAC.
5) Do Not Be Predictable! If you approach with the same quick attack over and over, you're opponent will be able to see what you're doing before the quick attack even executes. The beauty of this move is that its versatile, you can come from the ground, at an angle, at a right angle, from behind, through them, etc. It can be difficult to change things up during a match, but practice makes perfect.

A few caveats: If you approach them from the front, they can grab you out of the QAC if theyre quick enough. Of course this can be avoided if you go through them or come from the back instead. Also, as I said earlier if you QA through an opponent, you still QAC but the timing is off. This can make things difficult if you're trying to do multiple QAC's and keep running into them. And finally, the jump you do after your QAC is your only jump, think of the QAC as you being in the air really close to the ground after a single jump.

-----------------

Potential uses:

Lag-canceling QA: Just jump out of a QAC. Probably the most obvious use. It's not "really" lag canceling, but it doesnt leave you vulnerable like QA use to in melee, which on its own makes QA more useful

Leading into an attack: Aside from doing a dair right away, if you do a QAC jump you can do an attack almost immediately after the jump (on your upward trajectory from the jump). So far I've been able to use nair, bair, and uair. Fair usually executes too late to be affective on the jumps upward trajectory (I was trying on fox, and it would only work very occasionally and even then, only shock him once or twice for really low damage. Maybe it'll be better on bigger characters?) Nair is probably the easiest and possibly most useful, but uair can set up awesome combos. For instance: QAC, uair (on upward trajectory), then nair right afterwards.

Recovery: If you ever need to QA back onto stage, you can use the QA l-cancel. Once great way I've found if you want to create a lot of distance between you and your opponent: fall back away from the stage and do a QA towards the stage, then do a QA diagnolly into the stage and QAC jump. On final destination the QA's and momentum from the jump will take you almost clear across the stage.

As a mind game: Well, I'm sure there's a ton of ways to use this as a mind game, but one thing in particular... If you QAC jump, then immediately QAC jump again, and keep doing this over and over again, it may potentially throw off your opponent. They'll never know if you're going to lead into an attack, where you'll show up or from what direction, or if you'll end up doing some other attack like a skull bash, thunder, thunder shock, etc.

Quick Attack Flash: This one I love in particular. Basically you QAC jump aerial over and over again. After every aerial (usually an nair), you should be left in the air. From there you QAC jump aerial again and again, chasing your opponent around the stage. It's very speedy, and making sure to execute every QAC jump can be a bit difficult, especially if you accidently run into your opponent. Hard to do infinitely (especially with the little practice I've had), but it sure is a lot of fun . This likely has a particular application (I like to use it on campy persons) and needs to be refined a bit. But yeah, this ones incredibly flashy, I feel like if someone was able to perfect this it would make Pikachu a very very powerful character.

Stage QAC: This basically means you can do a QAC right into the ground while standing on the stage, i.e. QA down. This might not seem useful at first glance, but you can also try these. QAC diagnolly while standing on the stage. You'll shoot some distance then be in a position to attack. i.e. let's say an opponent is standing a bit aways, but any approach you make will be knocked back with a range attack. Doing a Stage QAC puts you right next to them with the speed of a QA, and ready to attack right away. Not full proof, but still an amazing approach. Here are the various ways to QAS from the stage: QA left/right, down; QA left/right, diagnol; QA down; QA diagnol. The QA left/right, diagnol actually gives you quite an amazing distance to attack from. It might be useful to go through them and attack from the back so you don't have to worry about charged up attacks or being grabbed. As a quick note, you have to QA into the ground at some point, just doing left/right doesnt work.

Infinite QA:
Ok, so in theory it's possible to QAC into the ground, then quickly QA again into the ground over and over. In practice this is difficult because you have to make your second QA movement longer then your first, and getting the angles right is really hard (usually I can do an angle then straight down, but two equal angles will almost always leave you short i.e. up then down, or 45 up and 45 down do not stall you).
However, it's not too difficult to do one QAC into ground, then follow up with another QA right away. If you ever need to gain some distance somewhere this can be useful.

Super QA recovery: Ok, this builds off the concept of the infinite QA. It's also very similar to the other recovery move I mentioned, and leaves you vulnerable for a split second longer, but moves you farther and quicker. This is a bit harder to do as well. So, from the ledge fall off stage (be sure to be just a bit below the stages edge), and do a QAC into the stage, then another QA.

Well that's everything I have for now. Hopefully this will be something useful to Pikachu. Of course this could end up being not useful at all, but I think it's worth practicing and trying. Anyways, discuss! And put down any applications you might find.

 

[Anther]

Nice write-up. It's far from not being useful I'll say that =]. It opens up a lot of attack opportunities and removes the downtime if someone takes the ledge from you.

 

[Tagxy]

Ok, a few more.

First, a note. You can use b attacks right after the QAC.

As for the QAS b attacks, the only useful one I've found (without having to do a jump first) is another Quick Attack right out of the QAS. The other ones could be useful in certain situations, but generally the startup time for the attacks leaves you vulnerable for awhile.

And a second note, you can actually do the QAC jump very easily by holding up on the joystick as you hit the ground if you have joystick jump on. However, then you'll have problems with doing QA's out of QAC.

Infinite QA:
Ok, so in theory it's possible to QAC into the ground, then quickly QA again into the ground over and over. In practice this is difficult because you have to make your second QA movement longer then your first, and getting the angles right is really hard (usually I can do an angle then straight down, but two equal angles will almost always leave you short i.e. up then down, or 45 up and 45 down do not stall you).

However, it's not too difficult to do one QAC into ground, then follow up with another QA right away. If you ever need to gain some distance somewhere this can be useful.

Super QA recovery: Ok, this builds off the concept of the infinite QA. It's also very similar to the other recovery move I mentioned, and leaves you vulnerable for a split second longer, but moves you farther and quicker. This is a bit harder to do as well. So, from the ledge fall off stage (be sure to be just a bit below the stages edge), and do a QAC into the stage, then another QA.

 

[festizzio]

I'm uploading a video right now that basically shows what this does, I fail at editing so yeah, the video is just me playing a level 1 dedede and quick attacking everywhere. I'll edit this post when it's up.

Edit:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T1zAVuGVc2M
Here it is, watch farther into the match if you want to see it actually doing stuff, I got better as I went along lol.

 

[Tagxy]

Ok, I could have sworn I did a QA along the ground that led into a smash. I have no idea how or if it was a fluke (maybe it clashed with one of their attacks or something), but if someone is able to replicate let everyone know.

 

[Anther]

It's really effing good D=.

I've been using it a lot as an approach. If both you and your opponent are in the air, chances are that pika doesn't have a good option to attack with. So I simply quick attack below them and hit them with whatever aerial is appropriate. It works mighty fine. It's really 'mindgamey' too because after a few time's they'll catch on. So then you can start doing the straight down QA's to make them downair or whatever counter they came up for the first attack pattern.

Also, quick attack to the ledge is a bit changed and looks a lot cooler. I'm sure people have done it but no one's mentioned it, and it's a lot more Brawl than the stuff I was doing in my first videos. You basically from any distance that's close enough for quick attack to reach the edge, do it diagnally into the ground towards the stage. Voila, on the edge! I usually do that and hit toward the stage at the end of the animation just to make sure I wasn't holding down still from teh half of QA and kill myself.

In addition to that, in tandem with the QAS, (I think it's more of a cancel than a stall..., but QAS is a cooler acronym) if you do the new quick hog, and perform an aerial at the point where you'd stall, you'll shoot off the edge doing a below the stage aerial. Very cool if I say so. The timing's pretty easy too, so... yeah and stuff.

Plus with QAS it can create some frustrating spam strategies vs characters without a decent projectile counter...

QAS creates some really interesting stage taunts lol.

 

[Scissors Sir]

Ok tagxy let me clear something up

The point of me making that post in the other topic wasn't to take credit for any of this. If you read it, you would see that I mentioned someone else knowing about it b4 I even got to play the game.

Now I've talked to festizzio twice

Once when I didn't have much time to play the game and didn't quite know how to do it.

And again after I figured out how easy it is to do.

I talked to anther as well

That's why I don't understand how he could post it up saying "I don't know if this is new or not"

If you knew it from someone else b4 u posted it, OF COURSE IT'S NOT NEW.

Now don't get me wrong I have nothing against festizzio...

I just didn't understand that part.

 

[Spyckie]

can you show QAS to dair? how about QAS - jump - nair on small characters?

also, can you experiment with QAS chasing in the air? Right now, visions of rock lee are in my head and I want to see if its possible...

 

[festizzio]

Ok tagxy let me clear something up

The point of me making that post in the other topic wasn't to take credit for any of this. If you read it, you would see that I mentioned someone else knowing about it b4 I even got to play the game.

Now I've talked to festizzio twice

Once when I didn't have much time to play the game and didn't quite know how to do it.

And again after I figured out how easy it is to do.

I talked to anther as well

That's why I don't understand how he could post it up saying "I don't know if this is new or not"

If you knew it from someone else b4 u posted it, OF COURSE IT'S NOT NEW.

Now don't get me wrong I have nothing against festizzio...

I just didn't understand that part.

Honestly, I only remember the first time you told me about it, not the second. So when I was screwing around in training mode and saw that I did something to make it less laggy, I instantly thought of what you said at first, so I spent the next half hour figuring out how it worked. And what I said about it being old or new, that wasn't about the quick attack, if you re-read my original topic that was about the double jumping after short hop fair.

 

[Tagxy]

Spyckie, I have a video of what I think you asked for as well as some of the other tactics I mentioned, but it's on the Brawl recording system. If I send it to someone are they able to record it and put it on youtube?

It's really effing good D=.

Yeah, I kept playing around with it and making all these mistakes that led into something else, and being amazed at how much you could do with this. Sooo awesome. But do you think QA cancel is better? At first I thought QA l-cancel, but it does more then just l-cancel. That's when I thought of stall, but you're probably right that cancel is more accurate (although you're also right that QAS is a cooler acornym).

Also, that off the stage aerial thing is cool, but the closer I get to the edge the liklier I am to SD. Usually I have to be a certain distance away.

And scissors, my post wasnt directed at you specifically or meant to be mean, I just didnt want any fighting in this thread.

 

[Pikabunz]

Quick Attack Cancel

Here's a video of what QAC can do. QAC into Nairs seems like the best way to use it.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bAc2x7TcEAI

 

[Dreminem]

I have been using it a lot. This technique really adds to the mind games you can do. I use the QAC or QAS and use Dair right after. Basicalyl I use it to go past them and come back to where they are standing and use Dair right when I get to them. It is really effective and sometimes when they expect you to come and you just do it into the ground it is kind of funny.

And should I put tap up to jump back in since it can help with this tactic or does it still hurt more than it helps?

 

[Ammeren]

Just have to say K Prime, thats some amazing stuff!
Really excited to try it out...(When it finally comes to Australia) =D
But i was wondering, would that QAC --> short hop thunder work?

 

[Dreminem]

yes that does work and it is awsome. It also creats somewhat of a defensive wall if you do the QAC into the ground at a diagnol angle and use Pikachus Down-B. That way you move pretty far away and if someone is chasing you they could run into it. It is somewhat punishable but it is kind of hard to get passed that electric wall before Pikachu recovers from it since he will be behind it.

If you use Pikachu's B, which I guess is his thunder but I don't know the terms for his attacks, it is awsome. Just QAC then short hop do a quick turn thunder to annoy your opponent lol. I am going to have a blast with the new use of it. I had only been using it for Dair on the ground. Now that I see you can use it with special moves and an effective chase move it will be a lot of fun.

I have been practicing this a lot so I can perfect it. K Prime, you are really good with it xD. I think you should learn how to do it twice instead of just once. I don't know what to call that either, sorry. Basically when you use Up-B and jam the control stick in one direction then into another direction to do it twice.

Learning how to do that seems like it could be really beneficial to dodge a dash attack or smash attack and come right back with a Dair on the ground.

 

[festizzio]

yes that does work and it is awsome. It also creats somewhat of a defensive wall if you do the QAC into the ground at a diagnol angle and use Pikachus Down-B. That way you move pretty far away and if someone is chasing you they could run into it. It is somewhat punishable but it is kind of hard to get passed that electric wall before Pikachu recovers from it since he will be behind it.

If you use Pikachu's B, which I guess is his thunder but I don't know the terms for his attacks, it is awsome. Just QAC then short hop do a quick turn thunder to annoy your opponent lol. I am going to have a blast with the new use of it. I had only been using it for Dair on the ground. Now that I see you can use it with special moves and an effective chase move it will be a lot of fun.

I have been practicing this a lot so I can perfect it. K Prime, you are really good with it xD. I think you should learn how to do it twice instead of just once. I don't know what to call that either, sorry. Basically when you use Up-B and jam the control stick in one direction then into another direction to do it twice.

Learning how to do that seems like it could be really beneficial to dodge a dash attack or smash attack and come right back with a Dair on the ground.

You actually can't short hop after this, only double jump. =\ I have found an interesting use combining this and WarbL's thunder trick to make a nice thunder approach/stay the hell away from me tactic.

 

[hazard99]

This makes me want to main Pikachu now

 

[halfDemon]

And should I put tap up to jump back in since it can help with this tactic or does it still hurt more than it helps?

It always helps more than hurts. USmash out of shield, man.

This looks to be really flashy, and even a bit useful. I'm going to have to try this stuff out.

 

[Spyckie]

anyone managed to do a QAC chase?

like downsmash -> QAC -> nair -> QAC + repeat?

 

[Tagxy]

OK! I finally got the videos up I made a few days ago. I guess I should have done some newer ones, but this was when I was messing with the QAC after festizzio mentioned it in that one thread.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sySJK0B_VZU

That shows several of the uses I mentioned earlier. The jumps are exaggerated and its generally done at a slower pace to showcase them well.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pnkzNoA3yqI

That shows what QAC might look like in a fight. Granted, I wasnt terribly great at it when I made that video, Im sure others are much better by now. Also, I don't recommend making that your pika's sole strategy, it was only meant to showcase what it could do in a real battle (that's a level 8 computer).

I'll add all the videos people posted and other stuff to the first post soon.

 

[PokemonTrainerLisa]

Ooh, this sounds AWESOME!! ^_^

I'm gonna try and pull this Quick Attack Cancel off, to see if I can try and use it in normal gameplay.


I main Pikachu, so this could be very useful for me.

 

[Spyckie]

great stuff tagsxy.

Its looking awesome as a WTF?? approach.

 

[festizzio]

I'm honestly surprised at how many people I've hit with thunder (the good part) online because of this. I mean, it probably has something to do with the lag but ****, they just run right into it.

 

[festizzio]

Here's a better video guys, I actually edited this one. O_o Btw at the end you can see WarbL's thunder thingy combined with this, looks pretty cool imo.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GshUovlVOew

Edit: Wow I don't even remember posting here today. -_- oh well my first double post, had to happen sometime. >_> ****

 

[Metzger]

I've been messing with this tonight, and it's frickin' amazing. I've got some pretty sick field coverage going on.

A couple things I found very useful:

Map the C-Stick to specials instead of tilts/smashes. Doing that I'm able to do QAC across the ground at normal QA height as many times as I want; it seems much easier this way.

I also found that you can REALLY mess with peoples' heads by doing this in exactly the same place a few times before moving in a direction (you'll have to try this yourself as describing the timing is a bit weird) by holding down on the control stick and tapping the C-Stick for the repeated QA (You won't need to hit jump at all if you time it right because of how the C-Stick functions when set to special). They can't predict it at all. Plus sometimes they take the bait and just charge in.

This is only going to get more awesome.

 

[Nigachu]

This seems to make the downsmash to thunder combo easier to pull off even with good DI and it just looks too awesome. I'm going to enjoy spamming this.

 

[Tagxy]

Very nice video festizzio. I didnt even think to do infinite QA along the ground until I saw you do like 4 in a row.

I've been messing with this tonight, and it's frickin' amazing. I've got some pretty sick field coverage going on.

A couple things I found very useful:

Map the C-Stick to specials instead of tilts/smashes. Doing that I'm able to do QAC across the ground at normal QA height as many times as I want; it seems much easier this way.

I also found that you can REALLY mess with peoples' heads by doing this in exactly the same place a few times before moving in a direction (you'll have to try this yourself as describing the timing is a bit weird) by holding down on the control stick and tapping the C-Stick for the repeated QA (You won't need to hit jump at all if you time it right because of how the C-Stick functions when set to special). They can't predict it at all. Plus sometimes they take the bait and just charge in.

This is only going to get more awesome.

Amazing! What another awesome idea! By tying special to the c-stick, it gives you free reign to move the joystick in whatever direction you want while you QA till the rooster crows. On top of that, the standard c-stick QA is a short QA up (unless you hold a direction), so now doing short QA's (at least upwards) is a lot easier, adding to pika's mobility. In addition, this allows you to do infinite QAC's upwards and downwards. And I love being able to do infinite diagnol quick attacks back and forth along the ground.

For some weird reason though, if you're off on the timing it makes you do a QAC jump instead of QAC QA. Not a terribly bad problem since its easy enough to fall into another QA, but its still a little annoying if you mess the timing up.

In fact, in training mode I tried practicing with 1/4 speed and 1/2 speed, and for some reason if you had a direction pressed on the analog stick (any direction) and then used the c-stick (any direction), it would make you jump first every time (even on regular speed, sometimes you jump first before you quick attack). This is something that pika players might want to look into, how the timing is different between what will make you do a special move and what will make you jump while using the analog stick. The more info we have, the better we'll be able to avoid doing accidental jumps (or possibly even using it to our advantage). From what I could tell, you can get a feel for what the timing is to do a correct quick attack, but I never got a feel for the jumps and they seemed to randomly happen when I didn't hit a QA at the exact moment it needed to be hit (sometimes I'd still get the QA, sometimes it would jump).

For now I'll just have to practice to make sure my timings always right I suppose.

Anyways, I never really got used to using the c-stick for smashes or aerials anyways, and the backward aerial isnt terribly useful, so I think my c-stick will now be mapped with special.

 

[Kuronekokun]

I've always liked Pikachu / flashy characters (samus in melee <3), so this makes me want to experiment with Pikachu even more.

 

[Yakt-NJ]

As a Pikachu user (primarty alt ATM), this intrigues me immensely. The ability to jump into an aerial immediatly after using this lightning fast move reminds me of the wavedashing days of old. I'm in no way comparing this to a wavedash; in fact, the QAC is way faster, albiet less versatile. You could do anything out of a wavedash, but this involves either jumping or landing before doing your attack, you don't actually move with the hitbox like you did with a wavedash (particularly noticeable with icy's down ur up smash in melee). The speed of approach and potential for mindgames with the QAC is undeniable however and I think you've hit on a mainstay for Pikachu in brawl.

Nice find!

 

[Metzger]

Very nice video festizzio. I didnt even think to do infinite QA along the ground until I saw you do like 4 in a row.


Amazing! What another awesome idea! By tying special to the c-stick, it gives you free reign to move the joystick in whatever direction you want while you QA till the rooster crows. On top of that, the standard c-stick QA is a short QA up (unless you hold a direction), so now doing short QA's (at least upwards) is a lot easier, adding to pika's mobility. In addition, this allows you to do infinite QAC's upwards and downwards. And I love being able to do infinite diagnol quick attacks back and forth along the ground.

For some weird reason though, if you're off on the timing it makes you do a QAC jump instead of QAC QA. Not a terribly bad problem since its easy enough to fall into another QA, but its still a little annoying if you mess the timing up.

In fact, in training mode I tried practicing with 1/4 speed and 1/2 speed, and for some reason if you had a direction pressed on the analog stick (any direction) and then used the c-stick (any direction), it would make you jump first every time (even on regular speed, sometimes you jump first before you quick attack). This is something that pika players might want to look into, how the timing is different between what will make you do a special move and what will make you jump while using the analog stick. The more info we have, the better we'll be able to avoid doing accidental jumps (or possibly even using it to our advantage). From what I could tell, you can get a feel for what the timing is to do a correct quick attack, but I never got a feel for the jumps and they seemed to randomly happen when I didn't hit a QA at the exact moment it needed to be hit (sometimes I'd still get the QA, sometimes it would jump).

For now I'll just have to practice to make sure my timings always right I suppose.

Anyways, I never really got used to using the c-stick for smashes or aerials anyways, and the backward aerial isnt terribly useful, so I think my c-stick will now be mapped with special.

Yeah, using C-Stick for specials does come with some tricks that you need to know about.

For one, if you dash and hit C-Stick up during the initial dash animation, you will ALWAYS short-hop. It is a forced short-hop. This can be useful, but it can also trip you up if you aren't expecting it. Learn this one and it comes in handy every once in a while (although I still prefer button short-hops as I don't hardly use short-hop specials with Pikachu, only A-moves).

Holding diagonally in any direction and pressing any C-Stick direction will perform your neutral-B. Not something that is particularly easy (or useful) to do regularly, but something to be aware of if you're going to learn to finesse the C-Stick for QAC.

I *think* (I'm at work so I'll check at lunch) double-tapping C-Stick up causes you to full jump once. This is probably why when your timing is off you jump instead of QAC in place.

I also noticed that it is MUCH easier to do reversal Down-B's with the C-Stick. With C-Stick on specials I am regularly able to reverse Thunder to the point where I'm two-ish body lengths away from where Thunder comes down (in the opposite direction that I jumped). Very useful.

Really the only downside about this with Pikachu is that your Side-B cannot be charged with the C-Stick, and hitting Skull Bash on accident is pretty much a guaranteed punish. Once you're comfortable with the control setup though it is pretty easy to eliminate.

 

[Topichu]

stuff

more stuff

Man that is SO AWESOME with the c-stick I can QAC so easily now multiple times with relatively no errors(i.e. Skull Bash) AND in 2 directions(b4 i could only get the timing down to do it in one direction at a time)

 

[leafgreen386]

This is an absolutely amazing tactic that will almost definitely be a big part of pika's game. I've been practicing and using this tech and usefulness is highly apparent. This is a great find, and so early into the US release, too.

However, for the advantages it provides, I don't think it's worth the trade off, especially already being used to the cstick for doing aerials/smashes. For most people (myself included) it will probably be much easier to master this using the control stick rather than the cstick, simply due to old habits. and the effect it would have on the rest of your game. The only aerials I don't do with the cstick are the nair and uair, and I never smash with A. Being able to DI whatever way I want while doing an aerial and the speed of smashes has just proven to be too useful, no matter what character I play. When I can get the same amount of usefulness out of this tech by using B while keeping the rest of the effectiveness from melee cstick, I don't see what the big deal is with setting cstick to special. So you made one tech easier, while slowing down smashes and reducing your ability to DI during aerials? Not worth it imo.

 

[festizzio]

IMO I don't think mapping your c stick to the special attack is a very good idea, at all. The reason is that now, Pikachu's down smash is a lot bigger part of his strategy than it was before, and definitely moreso than QAC. It's like if you were to take Peach's down smash (c-stick) and map it to pulling a turnip. It really isn't a very good idea. imo

 

[Tagxy]

I also noticed that it is MUCH easier to do reversal Down-B's with the C-Stick. With C-Stick on specials I am regularly able to reverse Thunder to the point where I'm two-ish body lengths away from where Thunder comes down (in the opposite direction that I jumped). Very useful.

Read what I said in Warbl's thread. There's a really interesting glitch you can do with the c-stick.

Also, double taping c-stick might have make your jump, but as I said when I was in training mode with 1/4 and 1/2 speed and held the analog stick and c-stick (any direction for both), it would always jump, regardless of if it was only pressed once and no matter the length.

As for diagnol neutral b's, I was usually able to hold diagnol and QA without neutral b'ing, but maybe you have to be moving? The only time I was ever able to neutral b with the c-stick is by holding diagnol on the c-stick itself in addition to some other voodoo (meaning Im not sure exactly what else I did).

The ability to jump into an aerial immediatly after using this lightning fast move reminds me of the wavedashing days of old. I'm in no way comparing this to a wavedash; in fact, the QAC is way faster, albiet less versatile.

I was thinking about this comparison. It does seem less versatile in what you can do out of it, but more versatile in the ability of how it allows you to approach (because of QA's direction ranges, length variations, etc.)

However, for the advantages it provides, I don't think it's worth the trade off, especially already being used to the cstick for doing aerials/smashes. For most people (myself included) it will probably be much easier to master this using the control stick rather than the cstick, simply due to old habits. and the effect it would have on the rest of your game. The only aerials I don't do with the cstick are the nair and uair, and I never smash with A. Being able to DI whatever way I want while doing an aerial and the speed of smashes has just proven to be too useful, no matter what character I play. When I can get the same amount of usefulness out of this tech by using B while keeping the rest of the effectiveness from melee cstick, I don't see what the big deal is with setting cstick to special. So you made one tech easier, while slowing down smashes and reducing your ability to DI during aerials? Not worth it imo.

It actually opens up QAC to a lot more abilities. If it was a matter of practice that would allow you to become as good as setting the c-stick to special, then it wouldn't matter. The problem is when you don't have b-set to the c-stick, you have to press up and b, and then another direction. That's not a problem if you want to do QAC once or twice in a row, maybe even three times for those who become good. But at some point or fingers just won't react quick enough. Because we can input a direction while having a single button that QA's, it increases its versatility a great deal, and also makes short QA's in the heat of battle more practical. So essentially, this isnt just a matter of what techniques it allows (sure, we may only have 1 or 2 now, but Im sure people will find more), but the fact that it increases the overall mobility and versatility for all QAC's in a way that you couldnt have without mapping c-stick to special.

I think this will end up being a decent debate. Smashing without c-stick is very certainly something that people can aquire. I've been playing smash since the first 64 days and never had to rely on using the c-stick to smash, and was still able to pull them off as easily as those who do c-stick. But I don't think smashes will be a legitimate excuse to not do this, since that's something people can most definitely do without the c-stick easily with some practice.

Aerials are different, short hopped aerials can be affected by whether or not you use the c-stick. Pikachus bair was never been terribly helpful due to its lag from short hops. His fair I don't see as a problem at all. His dair will be more problematic though because of fast fall and that is something that's useful. And DI'ing with aerials is still possible, just harder.

Aside from short hop bair's, short hop dair's (w/o fast fall easily), and quicker aerial DI, I dont see much that c-stick mapped to smash can provide that can't be done with practice. Mapping special to c-stick though will increase pika's QA versatility a good deal though that I don't think you can aquire through practice.

 

[halfDemon]

You can charge Skull Bash by using C-Stick+Z.

It seems pretty useful, but I don't think I'll be swithcing the C-Stick to do specials for me. I've been using it for far too long to do smashes and aerials to switch now.

 

[Skazryk]

Is there a video of this being used?

 

[festizzio]

Is there a video of this being used?

They're in the first post.

 

[Cranberry Rogue]

Wow, this is fantastic. Not only does this look useful as heck, but it's pretty flashy, too, ain't it? I can definitely see some "holy crap" moments arising thanks to this techniques application.

 

[RaptorHawk]

First I'd like to just say this technique is amazing and way too much fun to use.

If it was a matter of practice that would allow you to become as good as setting the c-stick to special, then it wouldn't matter. The problem is when you don't have b-set to the c-stick, you have to press up and b, and then another direction. That's not a problem if you want to do QAC once or twice in a row, maybe even three times for those who become good. But at some point or fingers just won't react quick enough.

Yea I have tried mapping the c-stick with special and I did find it slightly easier to QAC, but I use c-stick for aerials and smashes way too much so this isn't really an option for me. It really is a matter of practice. At least I think so. Here's a short clip I made of me QAC'ing WITHOUT mapping to c-stick.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OaZoL5b0TuI

Yea I messed up at the end but nobody's perfect right? lol

With enough practice I'm sure theres nothing mapping c-stick could do that I couldn't do without it.

 

[Tagxy]

Unfortunately I highly doubt that's the case.

Right now Im working on something I'm calling QAC Dashing (maybe a better name will come up). It basically is non-stop QAC's as your stable method of movement, and even having not perfected it yet it confuses the begeeezes out of your opponent.

One of the main components of QAC Dashing is the:

Quick Attack Dash: Back and forth diagnol movement along the ground using the QAC.

The fact that you can go backwards and forwards one right after the other and consistently is important. I don't believe the QA Dash is possible without the c-stick. Another nice thing about the special c-stick is that if you screw up, you'll do a QAC jump, which isn't terrible. Wheras a screwup with the regular QA leaves you with highly punishable lag. QAC Dashing isn't only QA Dashes, it's any QAC move. But QAC Dashing as well as QAC in place and short QAC up-down are important parts of this because theyre essentially the movement components that allow you to go anywhere in a controlled manner on the field using QAC. Oh yeah, being able to have greater control of the angle on your QA Dash (so you can control the distance) is also important.

Granted, this isnt meant to be your total movement for the entire match (though it could be), because you'll have to be grounded to pull of non-aerial or b-move attacks. But you could be doing rather difficult QACing one after another for extended periods of time. It's not something I see as being usable without c-stick special. If this ends up working out, I'd consider using it as the ultimate approach.

 

[leafgreen386]

People used to not consider the fox drillshine infinite or the IC wobbling to be feasible for a tourney environment due to difficulty and consistency reasons. What eventually happened? People could do either of these at will after some practice. It should end up being the same thing here. The game has only been out for a little over a week. We have plenty of time to learn and perfect QACing, and I foresee those learning to do it without the cstick being at an advantage as opposed to those who do, due to the added benefits the cstick set to smash/attack provides. The fact that it is possible to do a single QAC without the cstick should be proof enough that after enough practice one could do many, and precisely. You seem to underestimate what people can do with enough practice, even though you've only had the game for a week.