140.85 - The Solid Snake Matchup Database

[Underload]

MUST READ FOR ALL MEMBERS:

Hello, and welcome to the 2nd incarnation of the Snake matchup thread. Many of the Snake regulars have deemed it necessary to restart discussion after the unfortunate death of abit_rusty's thread. Through this thread, we hope to create more intelligent discussion in the Snake boards and streamline some otherwise frayed information.

However, with a new thread comes some new rules. Borrowing a few ideas from the Yoshi boards and using a few of my own, I have come up with this system. The old norm of opening the matchup thread (this thread) to the discussion of a single character for a set amount of time is cluttered and inefficient. It only keeps the discussion of a character open for a week or two, so any late-comers will be snubbed. So, what I have decided to do is create an individual thread for each matchup. That thread will be open indefinitely, open to discussion at any time. But, to avoid excessive thread spam, only one matchup will be opened at a time. The next will be opened when we deem input is satisfactory.

If you are from another character board or are new to the Snake boards, please do not post about matchups in here. Look for the corresponding thread. However, it is alright to advertise YOUR board's discussion of Snake in this thread.

Additional Resources To Help With Matchups:
Complete Frame Data Directory
Snake Edgeguarding Guide

means this matchup is not open to discussion yet.
means this matchup is currently under initial discussion.
means this matchup is out of the spotlight, but still open to any discussion / arguing.

_____________________

:random: Character ~ Discussion thread | Opposing character's matchup thread snake:opponent

Bowser ~

Captain Falcon ~

Diddy Kong ~ Versus Snake | Matchup Thread 50:50

Donkey Kong ~

Falco ~ Versus Snake | Matchup Thread 50:50

Fox ~

Ganondorf ~

Ice Climbers ~ Versus Snake | Matchup Thread 60:40

Ike ~

Jigglypuff ~

King Dedede ~ Versus Snake | Matchup Thread 45:55

Kirby ~ Versus Snake | Matchup Thread 60:40

Link ~

Lucario ~ Versus Snake | Matchup Thread

Lucas ~

Luigi ~

Mario ~

Marth ~ Versus Snake | Matchup Thread 50:50

Mr. Game & Watch ~ Versus Snake | Matchup Thread 60:40

Meta Knight ~ Versus Snake | Matchup Thread 55:45-40:60

Ness ~

Olimar ~ Versus Snake | Matchup Thread 45:55

Peach ~

Pikachu ~ Versus Snake | Matchup Thread 55:45

Pit ~

Pokémon Trainer ~

R.O.B. ~ Versus Snake | Matchup Thread 55:45

Samus ~

:shiek: Sheik ~

Snake ~ Versus Snake | Matchup Thread 50:50

Sonic ~

Toon Link ~ Versus Snake | Matchup Thread

Wario ~ Versus Snake | Matchup Thread

Wolf ~

Yoshi ~

Zelda ~

Zero Suit Samus ~ Versus Snake | Matchup Thread

 

[Sinz]

We will be starting with the bottom of High Tier(as deemed by the current list.) and continue to the top tier. Then we will do all of the other characters in reverse order. (so from the top of mid tier to ganon.)

EDIT:

Meta Knight
Snake
Wario
Falco
Diddy Kong
King Dedede


Marth
Mr. Game & Watch
Pikachu
Olimar
Ice Climbers
R.O.B.
Kirby


Lucario
Zero Suit Samus
Toon Link
Pit
Donkey Kong


Peach
Luigi
Fox
Wolf
Sonic
Sheik


Bowser
Zelda
Pokémon Trainer
Ike


Lucas
Mario
Ness
Yoshi
Samus


Jigglypuff
Captain Falcon
Link
Ganondorf

 

[6Mizu]

so what....we're like redisscussing...or something?

 

[Sinz]

Yeah. The metagame has changed for a lot of the members of the cast. So they have become better overall. Just rediscussing the match ups and spurring good conversation is what we are aiming for.

 

[6Mizu]

Makes sense.....
I'll help.

 

[Underload]

Link to the R.O.B. discussion.

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=260589

 

[Cha0tic NiGhTmArE]

Heyy can A snake help me out.. i want an assortment of Snake opinion on the Snake/Pit matchup.. our boards are a mess(as always), and i wan to to get our Matchup thread moving =7. PM please with some matchup opinions

 

[Drift108]

im dieing for the diddy kong thread to open, diddys are taking over the tier list!!!!!

 

[6Mizu]

I'm ready, for the Diddy thread to open.

 

[Squall of fame]

I really need that Wario thread to open ASAP!

 

[6Mizu]

I really need that Wario thread to open ASAP!

Why?

 

[Yumewomiteru]

Rather than relying on the matchup threads you guys should find good, recent vids of the matchup and learn from them.

 

[6Mizu]

Rather than relying on the matchup threads you guys should find good, recent vids of the matchup and learn from them.

I don't rely on the MU threads at ALL really.
Actually I watch vids and take a look at the MU threads.

 

[Berserker.]

Hey guys

Is it okay if there was a match up chart? I have an MU chart in progress?

 

[Attila_]

I think for the most part, we discuss mus wrong. we tend to be very general when recommending what to do, instead of isolating our problems and coming up with exactly what we can do about them. we should focus more on specific problem moves, and by using frame data, come up with our list of options when put in those certain situations.

for instance:

Kirby's best move is most definately his bair

B-air (Drop Kick)

12% soon (9% later)
Start-up: 1-5
Hits: 6-20
Cool-down: 7-41
Hitlag: +8
Aerial Lag: 9 (auto cancel: 2, 28)

thus on a normal shield, we have at least 6 frames to punish (20+8+7). this means an ftilt is always possible. but given that kirby is generally quite high when using it, jab --> grab is more appropriate in most situations. on a power shield, we can grab, utilt, jab, ftilt. remember, he may be going through you, so turn around where possible.

this is considerably more useful than 'block and punish' or 'just camp and space'. and it helps regardless of the opponents playstyle. we should do this more often.

 

[Yumewomiteru]

You're forgetting that kirby spaces his bair, which means that jab and ftilt wouldn't reach him. I like to punish his bair by moving towards him and dtilt him where he lands.

 

[Toby.]

Hey attila

Don't forget to take into account shield hitstun, and the time it takes to drop your shield before doing the ftilt.

 

[Attila_]

i thought i took that into consideration... 20+8+7... anyway, i was using it as an example. this is how mus can be discussed so that they help us despite playstyles or ability. frame data doesnt lie. i do believe susa made a thread on mks dtilt a while ago, concluding that it could be ftilted on powershield, providing the spacing allowed for it, otherwise, all snake can do it walk away. this kind of thing is incredibly useful. now next time i face a mk's dtilt i know exactly what i can and cant get away with, and am able to made correct decisions without guess work or failed attempts.

 

[Berserker.]

I wonder what Susa was talking about when she thought of the DDD MU as 50:50...

What were her theories on Snake VS DDD..

 

[Yumewomiteru]

SuSa lives in WC who has no good Dededes.

 

[Berserker.]

Ohh

Now I get it

 

[Squall of fame]

Wario is hard as hell to deal with whether its recovering or trying to hit his seemly fly A$$ just so hard to hit him when he got some BS leeway.

 

[Sinz]

Peter..... I dunno... but I think you should have a thread for the IC's made...

 

[gallax]

I wonder what Susa was talking about when she thought of the DDD MU as 50:50...

What were her theories on Snake VS DDD..

come down to FL and then you'll see why ddd vs snake is definately in favor of snake.

 

[Yumewomiteru]

Can you explain why it's in Snake's favor? I've being playing against a Dedede main regularly for a long time now. Although I wouldn't say its a really bad matchup I still can't see it being in Snake's favor.

 

[Attila_]

'snake outcamps d3'

thats the answer they always give. which fair in the sense that it is true.

BUT when d3 manages to get through the nade spam (admittedly taking damage along the way) and stand just outside ftilt range, wtf can snake do?

1. pull a nade --> gets grabbed
2. ftilt/utilt/dtilt --> gets grabbed
3. usmash --> gets grabbed, might get saved by mortar
4. pivot grabs --> outspeeded and outranged (im pretty sure) by d3's standing grab --> will get grabbed
5. dash attack/dacus --> shield grab
6. jump and do whatever --> eats a wall of bair OR shield grabbed upon landing

one grab at low damage is equivalent to at least 80% (after lots of c4 recovery). and d3cide is so very close to being guaranteed, and the snake must predict it or react very quickly to avoid it. not so bad at high percents, but d3 gimps pretty well and has kill moves that actually kill snake reasonably well. we die before him at least.

admittedly im being a little biased, but i cant see how its not d3's favour.

 

[etecoon]

snake doesn't beat D3. not yet anyway. if a snake practiced dthrow on DDD constantly to where he actually could tech chase consistently on pure reaction then yes, snake would win the MU, but for the moment that is only theorycraft, no one's actually doing it.

 

[Yumewomiteru]

I doubt it's possible to techchase Dedede purely on reaction. Even though his rolls are short, they are also quick. So you have to be fast to be able to techchase him, if you hesitate he can grab you instead.

 

[etecoon]

I think with practice it could be possible, reacting to rolls isn't as hard as get up attacks to me at least, so anyone that hits away first is a potential victim. but as I said, until someone starts doing this it IS pure theorycraft, DDD beats snake 6:4.

 

[iFudge]

Lets discuss diddy. im camping my butt off and now im up to the point. I have to cp mk and time them out to win.

 

[Yumewomiteru]

Who ever said that you should nade camp Diddy?

 

[gallax]

come down to FL and then you'll see why ddd vs snake is definately in favor of snake.

Can you explain why it's in Snake's favor? I've being playing against a Dedede main regularly for a long time now. Although I wouldn't say its a really bad matchup I still can't see it being in Snake's favor.

woah woah woah i just realized what i wrote. i meant its totally in favor of DDD. haha. i mean playing agianst co 18 and hungrybox and watching seibrik play his ddd agaisnst snakes makes one realize how much snake has to work to win this.

ive seen the best snakes in florida have a two stock advantage against ddd and lose. ive never seen the opposite though.

Who ever said that you should nade camp Diddy?

ask razer or candy and they will say this. thats what they told me. lol.

 

[Sinz]

woah woah woah i just realized what i wrote. i meant its totally in favor of DDD. haha. i mean playing agianst co 18 and hungrybox and watching seibrik play his ddd agaisnst snakes makes one realize how much snake has to work to win this.

ive seen the best snakes in florida have a two stock advantage against ddd and lose. ive never seen the opposite though.



ask razer or candy and they will say this. thats what they told me. lol.

You should nade camp Diddy. That is definitely correct.

 

[6Mizu]

Underload ROB is done start another chracter's MU...or something.

 

[UltimateRazer]

I told you to 100% camp a diddy with nades? I wouldn't 100% camp....well thats just me.

.

 

[Underload]

Underload ROB is done start another chracter's MU...or something.

There's been an Ice Climbers discussion open for the past two weeks.

 

[napZzz]

those frowny faces all over the first post of this thread make it so....depressing :/

 

[Underload]

I can start #4 if you want. It seems nobody cares about the ICs matchup, even though it's extremely important.

 

[6Mizu]

There's been an Ice Climbers discussion open for the past two weeks.

I know, but I'm mean replace ROB's with another, since ROB MU thread is already done.

EDIT: #4?
Do you mean DK? Sure.

 

[Underload]

I've already replaced ROB's thread with the ICs thread. I opened the ICs discussion a week after ROB's. Look, here's the order.

#1: Kirby
#2: ROB
#3: Ice Climbers

Kirby and ROB have gotten decent success, but ICs has gotten zero love. I don't want to open #4 (Olimar) until we get some decent discussion started there. Comprendo?