Official 1.1.6 Patch Notes/Patch Discussion

[ThatStrangeDoll]

People are really underplaying how much her sdi changes hurt her.

 

[itsmeMOB]

I expected nerfs but this is just overkill. I am a little saddened by it because it only affects her, even if deserving, and no one else got changed supposedly too.

It makes the community look bad at times because of the Bayo nerf outcry. You got what you wanted but to this extreme? I saw a tweet AceStarThe3rd tweeted today that said "What if Bayo wasn't toxic to the game, but the community was toxic towards her?"

I agree with him.

Also, people need to separate player hate from character hate. Harassing someone for playing a character you hate is really despicable.

Long are the days where people would adapt, but Bayo will still be good and still have combos to an extent, it'll just be harder.

That dtilt and dABK blows though, those were important for me when I played as her.

 

[rm88]

I mean, if she'll still be good, I don't know how on earth this is "overkill". I just can't feel bad for this character that is likely high tier at worst now. I'm honestly all for nerfing stupid things like 0 to death combos.

 

[libeck]

I have a question about SDI:

Divekick:

• Damage: 8% -> 6.5%
• Angle: 80° -> 60°
• Hitbox Size: 6.5 -> 4.5
• SDI Multiplier: 1 -> 2

What does the SDI increase change here? isn't Divekick a single hit? Can you SDI a single hit?

 

[Bowserboy3]

I have a question about SDI:



What does the SDI increase change here? isn't Divekick a single hit? Can you SDI a single hit?

You can SDI anything. It's far easier see the effects of SDI during multi hits, or during moves with lots of hitlag (Like Knee or Marth's Tipper).

 

[Quarium]

I expected nerfs but this is just overkill. I am a little saddened by it because it only affects her, even if deserving, and no one else got changed supposedly too.

It makes the community look bad at times because of the Bayo nerf outcry. You got what you wanted but to this extreme? I saw a tweet AceStarThe3rd tweeted today that said "What if Bayo wasn't toxic to the game, but the community was toxic towards her?"

I agree with him.

Also, people need to separate player hate from character hate. Harassing someone for playing a character you hate is really despicable.

Long are the days where people would adapt, but Bayo will still be good and still have combos to an extent, it'll just be harder.

That dtilt and dABK blows though, those were important for me when I played as her.

She will most likely be in the lower high tier spectrum at WORST now AKA still a good character. People seem to forget that a huge chunk of people who play this game have their character be a measly mid/low tier and still put in the work... I wonder how they feel when they see people complain about their character no longer being TOP top tier? put in the work mang, if you love Bayo you should just do your best to keep pushing her forwards.

 

[Hoe4u]

Now it just means most Bayos need to think harder like most to get kills. Don't forget she still has Witch time which is easily the best counter in the game and can lead to Spikes, charged smash kills + a stack of damage, but it's also got bat within which is pretty damn good.

Not to forget her Bair is also comparable to ZSS which no one can deny is very good and hasn't had any changes. Even looking at the hitbox reduction on Dtilt, it's not actually that much smaller and it's quite safe on shield also, and people saying it doesn't combo before trying it when it might very likely combo hitting dtilt closer is just pure salt. When Bayo could combo it into clearly gigantic hitboxes on fair it just means you now have to think more about more optimised punishes.

Im not following with the people who hate on the nerfs. Don't you want Bayo players to think more. It's apparent players from all over the world literally went from barely placing top 16 to making top 8 regardless of not winning majors lol. Maybe it just means now you will see more optimised Bayo players rather than combo > strings that the average player can learn in 30minutes lol.

Not that I'm salty cause I use Pika, but it was hilarious watching Bayo run up to lucario and frame 4 Witch Twist and whenever Lucario would try jab (frame 6) > lead to 40+% or potential death hahaha

 

[ThatStrangeDoll]

With her already abad frame data, poorneutral and the fact she cannot true combo you anymore, i don see how she could be anything above mid tier .

 

[Funbot28]

Well I guess Diddy is no longer the most nerfed character in the game.... But seriously this is really unacceptable, yes maybe ABK and Witch Time to UAir may have been a bit too strong, but don't completely destroy them. People are gonna say "well look what happened to Shiek and Diddy", but at least there playstyle as an overall character did not change. Bayo was meant to be a combo character (maybe not kill from 0%) but making her moves barely link just extremely limit her options in the neutral and she basically has to rely on Witch Time to get a kill confirm. I expected nerfs but not to this degree.

Really disappointing

 

[Tizio Random]

I just want to know how much the SDI multiplier on Witch Twist affect the move. I mean, is now really easy to escape or just a bit more possible but still requires good effort? I think if the latter is true, Bayonetta is still completely safe, all they did was to remove her 0-to-death combos.
She is still has incredibly good tools, it's not like she can't kill anymore, guys. I also think that Bayonetta mains didn't even explore too much of her neutral, considering how good her ceiling combos overshadowed everything else.

 

[rm88]

With her already abad frame data, poorneutral and the fact she cannot true combo you anymore, i don see how she could be anything above mis tier .

Lol, I disagree. Mid tier? Like, along with characters like Mega Man? Yeah...

 

[ElectroLightning]

Wow..... Talk about a nerf... But they didn't need to nerf her to bits, she is recognized as a combo character, now she needs to rely on landing Witch Time to take the stock...

 

[AkiraGr]

Or you know, you could just find more combo's with your main and actually get better with her. This patch shouldn't be a reason to drop your character. Actually go back in the lab and git gud.

It is very different to change a move to get a different outcome or get better tools when you had bad tools before. This patch is a clear destruction on the characters play style. They removed 70% of her combos and got nothing in return... Not even less landing lag on her moves or reduce the start up lag on her jabs to counter her very bad neutral game.

It's like a hand or feet ambulation and ask to get good at a sport the way you were before your accident. This patch shows that Sakurai was correct when he said the game did not need any balance patches after 1.4.

The balance team are not working to balance the game properly rather than react to public outcry of casual scrubs with a social network accounts wrecking havoc because they want to win without trying.

I play Bayonetta and I will not stop playing her even after the patch, the thing is I wanted to participate at EVO next year, training real hard every day with her and now all my hard work go to waste because of internet outcry mob mentality.

I wanted to play competitively with Bayonetta, I loved her play style, her combos, she added new addition to Smash Bros. gameplay. I played Ike before her a character that was destroyed when played against Sheik, Zero Suit because of his bad physics and recovery, Bayonetta balanced that and felt great to play.

Bayonetta is slow, has terrible neutral game, a glouton for punishment against floatty grap characters but her mix up/punish game was great. Now they removed the mix up-combo game and we got a 3d model represent Bayonetta in Smash.

Because ZeRo, Spanish Inquisition and 8 people at Russia spread the poison and reel up all the scrubs that could not understand Bayonetta's match up. I am done with competitive smash. If Nintendo are prone to idiots that cry at social media because they are not good at smash then I am not going to support this mentality.

I said my piece when the Spanish people started the debate only one month after the release of Bayonetta crying to ban her because in their scene are a minority of people who do not like the character, that if this mentality of nerfs or bans prevails against hard work and practice I would stop playing smash competitively.

They won, in this day an age hard work does not pay off, next time I want something to happen I go cry on facebook and twitter or reddit maybe it is better than busting my ass training, experimenting, losing sleep with my mates playing till dawn to be better players.

I will try to get gud... At ******** on the internet.

 

[Yikarur]

Does the initial hit of witch twist still the insane knockback? I was SDIing witch twist before and I always died at like 40 because of it 8)

 

[ShadowGuy1]

It is very different to change a move to get a different outcome or get better tools when you had bad tools before. This patch is a clear destruction on the characters play style. They removed 70% of her combos and got nothing in return... Not even less landing lag on her moves or reduce the start up lag on her jabs to counter her very bad neutral game.

It's like a hand or feet ambulation and ask to get good at a sport the way you were before your accident. This patch shows that Sakurai was correct when he said the game did not need any balance patches after 1.4.

The balance team are not working to balance the game properly rather than react to public outcry of casual scrubs with a social network accounts wrecking havoc because they want to win without trying.

I play Bayonetta and I will not stop playing her even after the patch, the thing is I wanted to participate at EVO next year, training real hard every day with her and now all my hard work go to waste because of internet outcry mob mentality.

I wanted to play competitively with Bayonetta, I loved her play style, her combos, she added new addition to Smash Bros. gameplay. I played Ike before her a character that was destroyed when played against Sheik, Zero Suit because of his bad physics and recovery, Bayonetta balanced that and felt great to play.

Bayonetta is slow, has terrible neutral game, a glouton for punishment against floatty grap characters but her mix up/punish game was great. Now they removed the mix up-combo game and we got a 3d model represent Bayonetta in Smash.

Because ZeRo, Spanish Inquisition and 8 people at Russia spread the poison and reel up all the scrubs that could not understand Bayonetta's match up. I am done with competitive smash. If Nintendo are prone to idiots that cry at social media because they are not good at smash then I am not going to support this mentality.

I said my piece when the Spanish people started the debate only one month after the release of Bayonetta crying to ban her because in their scene are a minority of people who do not like the character, that if this mentality of nerfs or bans prevails against hard work and practice I would stop playing smash competitively.

They won, in this day an age hard work does not pay off, next time I want something to happen I go cry on facebook and twitter or reddit maybe it is better than busting my *** training, experimenting, losing sleep with my mates playing till dawn to be better players.

I will try to get gud... At ******** on the internet.

Rosa players adapted like 50 times with their changes, yet we still pull through. Sonic was needed with Back throw and other moves, now look at KEN. Sheiks, Diddys, Luigis, MK have fought the need hammer, so why chat Bayo?

 

[CyberHyperPhoenix]

Because ZeRo, Spanish Inquisition and 8 people at Russia spread the poison and reel up all the scrubs that could not understand Bayonetta's match up. I am done with competitive smash. If Nintendo are prone to idiots that cry at social media because they are not good at smash then I am not going to support this mentality.

Look, I know you're allowed to complain and all, but for the love of god, can we stop spreading this stupid misconception that NINTENDO has anything to do with the balance of Smash 4? Please?

 

[Laggalot101]

It's always the same. Character gets nerfed, people will claim the character is no longer good and gonna drop to mid tier or something, a week or two later, still very clearly a solid character. It's happened so many times now, most notably with Sheik and Diddy Kong, I doubt this'll be very different. In any case, let's see with an open mind how the changes will affect the character in practice before drawing any hard conclusions.

A character doesn't have to be top tier to be a fine character, you know.

 

[ThatStrangeDoll]

Because the changes to those characters are nowhere near as damaging as this one specific patch.

 

[Laggalot101]

Because the changes to those characters are nowhere near as damaging as this one specific patch.

You don't know that yet. People think this every single time, and rarely is it actually the case. (Or arguably never)

 

[Funbot28]

Like I said in my previous post, Shiek's, Diddy's, MK's, ZSS's, and Luigi's playstyle all stayed relatively the same after they all got nerfed, as the patch just diminished the reward of certain moves/combos. However in this case Bayo's moves actually lost their viability and do not work as they originally intended to, which drastically changes how she will be played. I am sure us Bayo mains can adapt like the other prevoiusly nerfed characters, but this transition is really extreme and a bit undeserved.

Thats all

 

[Quickhero]

Sorry Bayonetta mains, but I hope she scales off to unviability. Bayonetta games in general are mashy over the top ridiculous combos with a lot of tools, the games, while fun, do not have nearly as much technicality as Smash (when it comes to combos) or even other action/fighter games. When you make a character that has to be both really combo based and easy to play, by design it's rather busted.

I doubt she's going to not be ridiculous scary though because witch time is still incredibly safe but yeah I don't think Bayonetta was a good idea as a design at all. From what I see it's either she's really good or she's not so good. Whom am I kidding though in a week a crap ton of other 0 to deaths will be discovered off the side.

 

[soniczx123]

L

It is very different to change a move to get a different outcome or get better tools when you had bad tools before. This patch is a clear destruction on the characters play style. They removed 70% of her combos and got nothing in return... Not even less landing lag on her moves or reduce the start up lag on her jabs to counter her very bad neutral game.

It's like a hand or feet ambulation and ask to get good at a sport the way you were before your accident. This patch shows that Sakurai was correct when he said the game did not need any balance patches after 1.4.

The balance team are not working to balance the game properly rather than react to public outcry of casual scrubs with a social network accounts wrecking havoc because they want to win without trying.

I play Bayonetta and I will not stop playing her even after the patch, the thing is I wanted to participate at EVO next year, training real hard every day with her and now all my hard work go to waste because of internet outcry mob mentality.

I wanted to play competitively with Bayonetta, I loved her play style, her combos, she added new addition to Smash Bros. gameplay. I played Ike before her a character that was destroyed when played against Sheik, Zero Suit because of his bad physics and recovery, Bayonetta balanced that and felt great to play.

Bayonetta is slow, has terrible neutral game, a glouton for punishment against floatty grap characters but her mix up/punish game was great. Now they removed the mix up-combo game and we got a 3d model represent Bayonetta in Smash.

Because ZeRo, Spanish Inquisition and 8 people at Russia spread the poison and reel up all the scrubs that could not understand Bayonetta's match up. I am done with competitive smash. If Nintendo are prone to idiots that cry at social media because they are not good at smash then I am not going to support this mentality.

I said my piece when the Spanish people started the debate only one month after the release of Bayonetta crying to ban her because in their scene are a minority of people who do not like the character, that if this mentality of nerfs or bans prevails against hard work and practice I would stop playing smash competitively.

They won, in this day an age hard work does not pay off, next time I want something to happen I go cry on facebook and twitter or reddit maybe it is better than busting my *** training, experimenting, losing sleep with my mates playing till dawn to be better players.

I will try to get gud... At ******** on the internet.

Look at Sonic after all his nerfs. There's still a possibility of of there being unexplored options of your character hiding somewhere.

 

[Yikarur]

Last Hit (First Use):

• KBG: 105 -> 80
• BKB: 50 -> 55
• Hitbox Size: 9 -> 8.5
• Hitbox Y Position: 20 -> 19

This is clearly a buff isn't it?
First Twitch Twist combos longer.

 

[Dusk Pit]

With her already abad frame data, poorneutral and the fact she cannot true combo you anymore, i don see how she could be anything above mid tier .

Bayonetta doesn't have a bad frame data. She should have never been that good in the firts place so now she has to play like everyone else more or less. How is that a bad thing?
She will still probably be high tier once things settle a bit.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

I don't have Bayonetta, so the changes to her really don't affect me. But it's still sad how some of the low ranking fighters still feel neglected.

 

[MewtwoLucas]

I'm happy they nerfed Bayo, but no low tier buffs is a little disappointing.

 

[AliveOmlett]

I'm sure that Bayonetta will still be Top 15, if not Top 10.
*Still hoping for some DDD-Buffs ;A;*

 

[Eureka]

Last Hit (First Use):

• KBG: 105 -> 80
• BKB: 50 -> 55
• Hitbox Size: 9 -> 8.5
• Hitbox Y Position: 20 -> 19

This is clearly a buff isn't it?
First Twitch Twist combos longer.

Yeah I was thinking the exact same thing. I wonder why they did that.

 

[Nintenpro]

So... Bayonetta's players are whining instead of adapting ? Ironic

Also, stop saying that Bayonetta is destroyed or anything, the patch isn't release yet... Bayonetta's players will probably find new combos/set-ups.

 

[Ulk]

There is no telling if she will still be good, really. She had one of the most severe disadvantages, which she made up for way too well with her combo potential. Depending on the result of how much they have ruined her combo potential, her disadvantages may end up being so severe that they will break her neck. Of course she deserved it, but I would not go as far as to be assured of her still being viable.

 

[RedMarf78]

I don't get why people are comparing things like Sonic nerfs to the Bayo nerfs. Sonic lost a prominent kill option with the back throw nerf but his overall playstyle was fundamentally the same. If the SDI changes do let people get out of witch twist consistently Bayo will not only lose access to most (all?) of her zero-to-deaths but her entire combo based playstyle will be heavily mitigated. I mean, sonic got nerfed but at least spin dash still works. I guess we'll have to wait for the patch to actually come out to see how much the Bayo nerfs will change things.

 

[GirugaMarc]

This is absolutely wonderful. GG Y'all. You got got thinking you were paying for an awesomely great character.

 

[pikazz]

on paper, the nerfs DO look huge (twice amount of SDI on each attack is quite huge)
however, I want to see it out in the field how much the nerfs do affect her or not.
time to it the lab again I guess.

HOWEVER, if the SDI nerf is TOO good like an slowpoke can hit the stick to the side once and get out of it simple, I would want it to be buffed to 1.5 so its more balanced yet much easier than 1.1.5

Last Hit (First Use):

• KBG: 105 -> 80
• BKB: 50 -> 55
• Hitbox Size: 9 -> 8.5
• Hitbox Y Position: 20 -> 19

This is clearly a buff isn't it?
First Twitch Twist combos longer.

this is something I approve after the nerf hammer, I wonder if it can still link to ABK and UAir/Kill Confirms despite the SDI on later %

 

[C0rvus]

I'm glad we can all make judgements about Bayonetta's strength in 1.1.6 when we have hardly touched it. Many of you seem to be underplaying how big the SDI multiplier is on her Witch Twist. There are some specific things that ofc need to be tested, like what you can get out of fair1 now, but Witch Twist is essentially much, much worse. You should not be getting followups out of it against a good opponent. High tier at worst? Denial. Character is ruined.

 

[jespoke]

See, i don't think at all that Witch Twist(1) will be something you will be SDI'ing out of most of the time. It will just mean there is more pressure on the Bayonetta to mix up her combos. I predict she will still get mad damage off of combos in 1.1.6, just no kills.

 

[Jeronado]

Was hoping they wouldn't gut her too hard, not looking too good right now though. Like others have said SDI multipliers alone might have been good enough. Hopefully she still has combos, would be kinda sad if she didn't. I'm interested in seeing what people find once the patch drops.

 

[Flamegeyser]

I still think my (well, someone from the bayo discord's) idea was better. Nerf the divekick angle like we said, and reduce the KBG of uair. That way we might get more combos out of uair, but it won't kill off the top so early, and 0-deaths will be basically gone from the divekick angle. What we actually got hurt.

One thing's still bothering me, what does changing the KBG on WTw2 mean if there was a set KB to begin with?

 

[Vipermoon]

You can SDI anything. It's far easier see the effects of SDI during multi hits, or during moves with lots of hitstun (Like Knee or Marth's Tipper).

Hitlag

Yeah I was thinking the exact same thing. I wonder why they did that.

There was no rule that said there can only be nerfs.

 

[Ozyroth]

Everyone happy or complaining about Bayonetta, and I'm here waiting for WiiFit Buffs.

For real, she needs a more reliable way of killing, all of her smashes "suck": Way too long frames to come out (predictable, easy to perfect shield, punishable even before comes out, etc.), way too many frames to recover. You need to really hard read to land those, which in a real match, is not viable. They are very specific to work. Also her Up-Tilt is kinda useless, I prefer to combo to Side-Tilt instead.

 

[Flawed]

Being honest and fair, I'm actually not sure she can stay amazing. She had an alright neutral, with dtilt being decently safe on sheild+rewarding, and bair to pressure. With the extra frames, dtilt is certainly out of the picture, leaving with bair only.. Bair isnt bad, but that kind of makes her seem outclassed to me. I could play someone else for the same reward. Smaller hitboxes + SDI multipliers + more lag+ later auto cancels- some of the changes seem sort of in the moment. Knockback growth on the ABK' is like an anti combo mechanic

So technically,
Fsmash
Upsmash
ABK
Witch Time
Witch twist
Dair
Fair
Heel slide all receieved some nerf along this road