1.1.4 Dash changes and implications.

[Conn1496]

So, well, we apparently got buffs. The major one being a Kart Dash damage increase from 4% -> 7%.

Now, I kinda went over the physics of this move in another thread, so I'm just gonna point something out from that debacle here. Our new lowest speed damage is our old top speed damage - and that scares me because Hammer Combo already starts failing early.

This feels like it could be either a blessing in disguise, or it's forever going to ruin our sacred Side-B > Up-B Hammer combo. -on the upside, it does add more KB to Side-B > U-air, so if that kills earlier, are we better off?

I'm gonna do some labbing and come back with some results. I'll update this page as I go along. Any and all discussion and own experiments are welcome to be posted here!

[Note]: !! After some further checking, this thread is actually kinda moot due to some misreported patch changes - but other discussion is held here... Just... Kinda disregard OP.!!

[Edit]: Okay, upon looking into this, I don't actually see a change to dash... Quite irritatingly... Someone please feel free to explain what actually changed with dash to me, I'm just not seeing it.

[Edit 2, Electri-- No.]: Only thing I see buffed is actually the spinout. Which is good, but not really what I was hoping for... Oh well!

 

[UberMadman]

The spinout buff is the only buff I've noticed, but apparently the later hits of fair got buffed too. I say "apparently" because I still got a 5% hitbox post patch, so I'm not sure I believe it myself.

 

[Conn1496]

The spinout buff is the only buff I've noticed, but apparently the later hits of fair got buffed too. I say "apparently" because I still got a 5% hitbox post patch, so I'm not sure I believe it myself.

I personally confirmed F-air changes - I'm happy to back that patch note up. You might have made the mistake I did where if you're doing training as dittoes, you have to take into consideration damage changes for different hitboxes against Jr.

Other than that, I can't understand any other reason you'd be getting a 5% hitbox unless it's incremental and different characters are for some reason hit for different %s, which I doubt.

 

[UberMadman]

I personally confirmed F-air changes - I'm happy to back that patch note up. You might have made the mistake I did where if you're doing training as dittoes, you have to take into consideration damage changes for different hitboxes against Jr.

Other than that, I can't understand any other reason you'd be getting a 5% hitbox unless it's incremental and different characters are for some reason hit for different %s, which I doubt.

It was against Mario in training, and I hit a late hitbox on the innermost portion of the attack, in-between the wrecking ball and the kart. This move probably just has 5 different hitboxes or something.

 

[Conn1496]

It was against Mario in training, and I hit a late hitbox on the innermost portion of the attack, in-between the wrecking ball and the kart. This move probably just has 5 different hitboxes or something.

Sounds weird, but it's likely that there is a weaker hitbox on it. B-air has a similar thing where it can hit for 8 if you're too close, but otherwise, I'm sure F-air is definitely buffed.

 

[Mr Moosebones]

Fair did not receive a buff. It has always done 11%.

This is what's written in the thread:
Clown Kart Dash Ground Dash/Spinout Damage: 4/8 -> 7/12
Fair Normal/Late Damage: 8/5 -> 9/7

Clown Kart Dash has always had two speeds, by not inputting a direction the kart does 4% damage, by holding forward it does 7%. The spinout does 12% if you hit it's sweetspot while holding forward, while 11% if you do the slow kart (not inputting a direction). The sourspot does 9%, quickly degrading to 8%

Prepatch Fair does 11%, with a 5% late hit.

So,

Clown Kart Dash
Slow: 4% Fast: 7%
Clown Kart Dash Spinout
Slow: 11%>9%>8%
Fast: 12%>9%>8%

Fair
Normal: 11%
Late: 5%

All of this data still reads true for post patch. Fair does 11% and kart has no changes.

 

[Armistice]

Doesn't Fair have four hitboxes? An early, normal, late, and landing?

According to Kurogane the early one does 11%, the regular does 8, late does 5, and landing does 2
Can someone double check this? I unfortunately cannot until tonight

Also kurogane seems to have no idea cart dash had two gears, lmao

 

[Conn1496]

Fair did not receive a buff. It has always done 11%.

This is what's written in the thread:
Clown Kart Dash Ground Dash/Spinout Damage: 4/8 -> 7/12
Fair Normal/Late Damage: 8/5 -> 9/7

Clown Kart Dash has always had two speeds, by not inputting a direction the kart does 4% damage, by holding forward it does 7%. The spinout does 12% if you hit it's sweetspot while holding forward, while 11% if you do the slow kart (not inputting a direction). The sourspot does 9%, quickly degrading to 8%

Prepatch Fair does 11%, with a 5% late hit.

So,

Clown Kart Dash
Slow: 4% Fast: 7%
Clown Kart Dash Spinout
Slow: 11%>9%>8%
Fast: 12%>9%>8%

Fair
Normal: 11%
Late: 5%

All of this data still reads true for post patch. Fair does 11% and kart has no changes.

I'm pretty sure the late hits of F-air got buffed by a couple of %, but yeah, I'm aware Kart didn't get buffed except spinout, they just screwed up the patch notes as far as I can tell - I was kinda irritated.

[Edit]: I think I might have misread your post the first time, but I think I agree with all you said?.. Uhhh...

-except for the part about the spinout (Which I just noticed.) - even a fullspeed spinout has the same % values as a slow one. The 12%/11% difference is just placebo, the spinout can hit 11% even at top speed - infact I'm sure speed doesn't affect it at all.

Doesn't Fair have four hitboxes? An early, normal, late, and landing?

According to Kurogane the early one does 11%, the regular does 8, late does 5, and landing does 2
Can someone double check this? I unfortunately cannot until tonight

Also kurogane seems to have no idea cart dash had two gears, lmao

Kurogane Hammer is incomplete in places - it's just a little irritating that data for Jr. doesn't really get around that much and thus Kurogane is less likely to be updated with it...

 

[Mr Moosebones]

Late hit of fair definitely didn't get buffed, I'm consistently hitting 5% as the last one on both 1.1.4 and 1.1.3.

I still don't get why people refer to anything other than the most damaging part of a move as "normal." "Early" doesn't make any sense. You can't hit a move early, you can only hit it once the hitbox is active.

That nomenclature messed me up, I still stand by the fact that fair hasn't seen any changes to the strongest and weakest hits, but at least now I don't think you're silly for stating that the regular hitbox of fair did 8% lol.

Spinout can, in fact, hit 11% at top speed, but it's an awkward hitbox (immediately after the first one dies out), whereas I can't get the slow spinout to hit 12%.

And KG also thinks up b hammer has 2 hitboxes when it actually has 3, so there's that too.

 

[Armistice]

Late hit of fair definitely didn't get buffed, I'm consistently hitting 5% as the last one on both 1.1.4 and 1.1.3.

I still don't get why people refer to anything other than the most damaging part of a move as "normal." "Early" doesn't make any sense. You can't hit a move early, you can only hit it once the hitbox is active.

That nomenclature messed me up, I still stand by the fact that fair hasn't seen any changes to the strongest and weakest hits, but at least now I don't think you're silly for stating that the regular hitbox of fair did 8% lol.

Spinout can, in fact, hit 11% at top speed, but it's an awkward hitbox (immediately after the first one dies out), whereas I can't get the slow spinout to hit 12%.

And KG also thinks up b hammer has 2 hitboxes when it actually has 3, so there's that too.

I personally refer to it as the "strong" hitbox of fair, but called it early since thats what KG called it and I was referencing them

Who were the ones who confirmed these % changes in the patch notes thread in the first place?

 

[Conn1496]

Late hit of fair definitely didn't get buffed, I'm consistently hitting 5% as the last one on both 1.1.4 and 1.1.3.

I still don't get why people refer to anything other than the most damaging part of a move as "normal." "Early" doesn't make any sense. You can't hit a move early, you can only hit it once the hitbox is active.

That nomenclature messed me up, I still stand by the fact that fair hasn't seen any changes to the strongest and weakest hits, but at least now I don't think you're silly for stating that the regular hitbox of fair did 8% lol.

Spinout can, in fact, hit 11% at top speed, but it's an awkward hitbox (immediately after the first one dies out), whereas I can't get the slow spinout to hit 12%.

And KG also thinks up b hammer has 2 hitboxes when it actually has 3, so there's that too.

That's really bizarre... I literally can't seem to hit 5% in practice mode. Like - at all. Maybe it's a buggy thing between differences in Wii U and DS versions?

-and yeah, I gotta admit, calling it "early" was weird to me too (I'm going by the name on other sources!), so... Only way I see it is that it's when the move hits as early as possible. *shrug* It's a lame way to put it, but it's how others do.

Now you point it out, I spot the difference in spinout at top speed too. That's really peculiar, I never noticed that! At slow speed, it literally only changes by -1%, but that's interesting nonetheless. Also applies to the moves lower % threshold only being possible at slow too. Good to know!

Also, I didn't even know about UpBHammer having 3 hitboxes and I played Koops since launch, so... I really wouldn't give Kurogane hammer too much slack for that. lol Jr.'s data just moves slooowww.

I personally refer to it as the "strong" hitbox of fair, but called it early since thats what KG called it and I was referencing them

Who were the ones who confirmed these % changes in the patch notes thread in the first place?

I dunno, but I'm still super-mad the patch notes thread was wrong about dash. I got so hyped over nothing.

-as for the whole F-air debacle, I seriously cannot hit the so-called 5% hitbox... I'm really starting to think it has to do with me being on 3DS, but... I dunno.

 

[Mr Moosebones]

The 3 hitboxes are startup/mid swing/ ending and they do 15%/10%/15% The beginning and end are the kill moves and the one in the middle is garbage. I feel like you probably knew that though lol.

 

[Conn1496]

The 3 hitboxes are startup/mid swing/ ending and they do 15%/10%/15% The beginning and end are the kill moves and the one in the middle is garbage. I feel like you probably knew that though lol.

To be honest, I never knew the middle-swing existed until now. lol It's basically non-existent. I literally never notably hit with it until I really tried in practice. Jeez.

 

[Mr Moosebones]

Lol consider yourself lucky. I've gotten it a million times while trying to confirm kills but my spacing was off.

 

[Armistice]

Yeah I get it occasionally when I get the bomb explosion > hammer combo that should be death, and it ruins it

 

[Nemesis561]

There are people in the main patch notes thread saying the FAF on all of Jrs smash attacks have improved, can anybody confirm that?

 

[ViceGrip]

Jr's smashes do appear to have less ending lag it looks like (not sure about usmash). the reported changes to kart and fair are bogus. but just visually it looks like jr pulls in his drills and wrecking balls quicker. can anyone else confirm? if true then jr fsmash will be even safer wowww.

 

[Mr Moosebones]

Here's hoping that's true. I didn't notice a difference but I also wasnt expecting one + was playing on laggy wifi.

 

[Conn1496]

I never noticed anything with Smashes, but then again, I rarely do with frame-data changes. ^^; I'm bad like that.

That said!.. I don't think the changes are totally bogus... F-air does seem to have stronger hitboxes later and spinout does more so atleast that part of the Kart buff wasn't complete horsecrap.

I dunno, I didn't honestly pay too much attention to specifics in 1.1.3 (I was too busy mucking with other chars who got buffs.), but all sources seem to say they were weaker back then.

Still really irritated about the fake kart buff though. You have no idea...

 

[Mr Moosebones]

This thread is honestly what's wrong with patch notes. Placebos everywhere.

 

[Conn1496]

This thread is honestly what's wrong with patch notes. Placebos everywhere.

I admittedly didn't check the patch before I dived in - patch hype and the like... Rather irritated with the whole deal. My bad.

Eiiither way, I just got this from another thread, thankfully:

Ok, I did the same tests under the same conditions...

1.1.3 Clown Kart Dash low speed/high speed damages = 4%/7%. Exactly the same in 1.1.4.

The spin out damage is weird. It does not increase based on whether you are doing low speed or high speed dash. It is based on the point of the spin. For example, if you hit with the beginning of the spin, you do 12%. If it hits just after, it's 11%. It decreases by 1% for the later the spin hits, going all the way down to 8%. This could be why the Jr boards are coming up with different values, perhaps not everyone knows this. From my testing, the damage output is exactly the same across 1.1.3 and 1.1.4.

From my testing on 1.1.3, Fair stales with damage the longer it is out too, dealing 11%, 8%, 6.5%, 5%, 4% and 2% upon landing.
In 1.1.4, I could only get 11%, 9%, 7% and 5%. I could not get a 4% hitbox to appear. Regardless, the change about Forward Air in the patch notes is true.

His smashes are indeed faster in 1.1.4. I cannot count frames, but what has already been said is believable. It seems that the animations are sped up near the end of the animations, thus, making them recover sooner.

Now I dunno about reliability, but it seems to back up quite a lot of claims that people have had both proving and debunking changes. F-air is seemingly changed, but you can still get 5% hitboxes - so that's been noted - but the middle hitboxes do seem buffed. At the very least, we have different values coming out, which seems to prove some change, regardless.

--aaand finally, smashes seem confirmed, though specifics, not so much. Which, either way, is a good thing.

 

[FlabbyOrb]

If you look at the data-dump changes we did get a fair buff
https://www.diffchecker.com/tqakrmw0

Our buffs include:

(Sweetspot/sourspot)
Fair middle Hit Damage: 8/6.5 -> 9/7
Fair late hit damage: 5/4 -> 7/5
Knockback growth: 90-93
Baseknockback: 30-33


Bair late hit: 8-> 10
Knockback growth: 90-92


reduced endlag on all smash attacks
d-smash: Frame_Speed_Multiplier(Speed=0.52)
f-smash: Frame_Speed_Multiplier(Speed=0.82)
u-smash: Frame_Speed_Multiplier(Speed=0.88)

 

[Armistice]

Does that mean down smashes endlag was reduced by 50%? Or do those numbers mean something not percentage wise

 

[Vult Redux]

If you look at the data-dump changes we did get a fair buff
https://www.diffchecker.com/tqakrmw0

Our buffs include:

(Sweetspot/sourspot)
Fair middle Hit Damage: 8/6.5 -> 9/7
Fair late hit damage: 5/4 -> 7/5
Knockback growth: 90-93
Baseknockback: 30-33


Bair late hit: 8-> 10
Knockback growth: 90-92


reduced endlag on all smash attacks
d-smash: Frame_Speed_Multiplier(Speed=0.52)
f-smash: Frame_Speed_Multiplier(Speed=0.82)
u-smash: Frame_Speed_Multiplier(Speed=0.88)

 

[Mr Moosebones]

Does that mean down smashes endlag was reduced by 50%? Or do those numbers mean something not percentage wise

I am also curious of this.

 

[A2ZOMG]

F-smash the character Bowser Jr is secretly the biggest winner this patch imo.

But seriously, if my numbers are right, F-smash is -3 on shield.

 

[Armistice]

There was a video posted on facebook of the endlag differences, however I cannot figure out how to turn it into a link to share here

Usmash and Dsmash changes look very drastic while F-smash is slighter

 

[FlabbyOrb]

F-smash the character Bowser Jr is secretly the biggest winner this patch imo.

But seriously, if my numbers are right, F-smash is -3 on shield.

what was it before?

 

[A2ZOMG]

what was it before?

-15, which was already pretty safe.

-3 on block is ZSS/Peach N-air territory on block. Even better that the move is multihit and thus you never need to worry about perfect shielding. Assuming your opponent drops shield, Jr's 4 frame D-tilt will outspeed absolutely everything else they can do basically.

Like, especially considering Jr F-smash is a super good anti-air, can't see any downside to just...spamming the move honestly given how ******** it is to whiff punish. This isn't factoring just how good the move is in situations like ledgetraps either.

 

[Conn1496]

If you look at the data-dump changes we did get a fair buff
https://www.diffchecker.com/tqakrmw0

Our buffs include:

(Sweetspot/sourspot)
Fair middle Hit Damage: 8/6.5 -> 9/7
Fair late hit damage: 5/4 -> 7/5
Knockback growth: 90-93
Baseknockback: 30-33


Bair late hit: 8-> 10
Knockback growth: 90-92


reduced endlag on all smash attacks
d-smash: Frame_Speed_Multiplier(Speed=0.52)
f-smash: Frame_Speed_Multiplier(Speed=0.82)
u-smash: Frame_Speed_Multiplier(Speed=0.88)

Tha B-air late hit buff was something I noticed, but honestly I didn't think it was new... lol -mostly because it's super minor, and when testing it, I got the old 8% hitbox too so I just thought sites like KG were missing some hitbox data. I'm sure now that that's just down to the weak hitbox being the 8% too (The one closer to the kart.).

But otherwise, yeah, these buffs are okay, the Smash ones are pretty great, especially if the super-safe on shield thing is true. Also, thanks for the data-dump link!

 

[Mr Moosebones]

-15, which was already pretty safe.

-3 on block is ZSS/Peach N-air territory on block. Even better that the move is multihit and thus you never need to worry about perfect shielding. Assuming your opponent drops shield, Jr's 4 frame D-tilt will outspeed absolutely everything else they can do basically.

Like, especially considering Jr F-smash is a super good anti-air, can't see any downside to just...spamming the move honestly given how ******** it is to whiff punish. This isn't factoring just how good the move is in situations like ledgetraps either.

I mean It's not as simple as "im gonna spam fsmash into dtilt and never get punished!!!" because dtilt has literally no anti air capabilities and rather bad endlag its stil not the safest move to throw out as a failsafe.

And Bjr's fsmash has always been okay on shield but whiffing it was never truly safe. It would force you into a bad position vs fast characters. Seems like that's been mitigated a bit though.

DSmash still sucks though lol, its just not... unusable now.

These buffs do a lot towards helping a really bad character not be really bad, but all the fundamental flaws bjr has design wise still exist. It'll be interesting to see how this changes him.

 

[A2ZOMG]

ok according to @LordWilliam1234 it's more like -11 on block, oh well. Frame speed multipliers are weird.

 

[Vult Redux]

all the fundamental flaws bjr has design wise still exist

fundamental flaws??? it is clearly obvious our lord bowsus jr has risen from the depths of bottom tier and with his -11 on shield fsmash and almost noticeable fair kb increase (I think??) he will liberate us from the oppressive regime of Shievil, 6ero 6uit 6amus, and RoSATAN.

 

[Mr Moosebones]

Top tier with a bullet. Dsmash only leaves you with 4 years of endlag after a 2 frame hitbox now, down from 8.

 

[pikazz]

the decreased ending lag is always nice~

but if its one more move I want decreased endinglag on is DownB D: I really want to be able to move as soon as MK moves and not having wave it goodbye like its on a boat leaving you behind

 

[Vult Redux]

and not having wave it goodbye like its on a boat leaving you behind

I feel you

these guys love to run straight into the hands of good players who know how to counterplay them.