Smashboards

I'm at a limbo too with Fox. Gonna mess around with Marcina and Robin. I suck with Greninja :|

Doesn't it still set up things at low to mid percents?

Meanwhile my character is still basically untouched though he may have gotten an odd tweak to BAir, reducing its landing lag if it hits. Not sure if it was in previous patches though.

Probably giving up Fox overall. Marth still isn't good even after the buffs. Greninja was always good and is now even better. WFT is probably high/top tier overall.

I'll be honest, I don't fully understand besides being rather noncommittal with his B&B moves and having generally limited range. My experience against him is likely corrupted from mostly playing Wi-Fi but he hardly seems like a weak character. Aside from damage racking was it mainly used for setting up kills?

Greninja's buffs are nice. Shuriken changes make him more streamlined. How do WFT's buffs make her high/top tier (curious if customs played into your evaluation)? I will say that she already had a strong combo/damage-racking game and she could possibly work kills into her playstyle more easily now.

What, Fox's jab?

The damage racking and kill setup thing? Yeah.

If that's really what was holding him together at high-level play (which I doubt) then his design needs work IMO.

Fox's design is like Captain Falcon's. Fox had the best advantaged state in the game (due to his jab, 12-15% at low percent off of a frame-2 move and guaranteed KO confirms on most of the cast at kill percents) and one of the best neutrals before this patch hit, in exchange for crappy disadvantage (better recovery than Falcon's, but light, and loses most of his stock to up-tilt chains).

Without jab lock, Fox still has one of the best neutrals, but his advantaged state is not as overwhelming. Shine buff is nice though. I'm conflicted on whether or not he is buffed or nerfed overall, but he's not as overwhelming as he was, so I'll drop him regardless.

Fox only beat Ness, Ike, and Shulk for instance because of jab lock. He probably loses at least two of those MUs now.

I would have figured he beats Shulk anyway, since I can't see Shulk being able to do much without being punished. But I'll take your word for it.

Fox vs Shulk is even from what I played (aka 4 hours ago). Then again, that's how it feels for me and my semi-crewmate who uses Fox

I trust you.

Clearly I have much yet to learn AKA my scrubbiness is showing.

I came from a tournament and got 9th. P.good tbh considering that I was expecting worse with customs. Lol

AND THERE WAS THIS WARIO. PROBABLY THE BEST IN MY SCENE.

I fought him. Close games. His reaction speed is ****ing nuts. He powershielded all of Shulk's jabs.... Wat. I had to space and beat him again and again at the neutral. His advantaged state is amaaazing. It was all fun games. One of the few moments where my neutral was tested heavily

I'm honestly amused you liked Fox's jab lock as much as you did (and ChaRAGEard in the same vein) as Shulk really doesn't have many tricks like them except perhaps Vision/Power Vision.

Shulk is kinda mediocre, everyone else has been buffed so heavily that he went from mid tier to really lagging behind imo.

He needs SOMETHING. Not a backslash buff lol.

Something about Fox's jab lock amuses me tbh. Not really sure but.... it just feels really good to use. Shulk's arts are what attached me to the character. That and the ****load of techs that I have yet to master

I lost to a game and watch with Zelda btw. 1-1. GW is p.good

I'm not really sold on Shulk's tier position. I can see why anyone would think he's lagging behind. It does feel like that when everyone except Shulk gets major buffs here and there. I'll see how it plays out

If there's anything he needs, it's a frame speed buff. On jab, and maybe all his moves

Fox can now jab-> up-smash on Sheik guaranteed, so he probably at least has a positive Sheik MU now