Unpopular Smash Opinions (BE CIVIL)

[Ze Diglett]

When it comes to recency picks, they actually make sense beyond "yeah, they're recent."

The thing is? Smash is an absolute advertisement. What does that also mean? A lot of newcomers will make people interested in their series. How does that matter? It means that if you want to play as the character in their home game, you need to be able to purchase said game in some way. This also means if said game doesn't exist outside of emulator, the advertisement factor is more hurtful towards the company. So making sure to have some more recent picks instead of just older characters is very good for business in itself.

Think of it this way; Nintendo does not like people pirating games. Sakurai is well aware of these kind of things to begin with. Like, it's common knowledge. This means that by picking lots of characters with no releases, Nintendo now has to suddenly focus more on old products being released... but some aren't even in the West, now are they? They now have to spend time and money to translate some of these games. And some they can't throw on without licensing issues either or other various problems(Hint: They don't fully own a lot of games on their systems. Certain rights, even for a Nintendo exclusive, are tied to another person. It's not a coincidence Mother 3 isn't in English yet. There's a lot they need to figure out if they ever want to re-release it. EarthBound had similar issues too). Let's also note this is part of why it was even considered for Marth and Roy to not come overseas at the time, or for that matter, why Ness was deliberately kept in Brawl, as they couldn't bring Lucas in alone when they can't even have an overseas sale.

This doesn't adhere to every single character either. It's just more of an attempt to pick closely mostly recency picks to make sure business is kept well. Also, it should be noted that every single third party did have an active product in some way you could obtain, or was really easy to do without pirating. It may have also came out a bit later, but they still existed somewhere. They're all business decisions. A completely dead third party(you can't count B&K when you were able to play them on the latest Xbox in some way) is a very bad pick if nobody can make even a tad of money off of its advertisement factor. It seems cheeky, but it's the only way a crossover like this can be easily worked with.

I want more picks from older stuff too. And some aren't going to have that issue. Most Pokemon picks are clearly possible to get games related to said Pokemon without issues. Fire Emblem is not the case in the same way. Some characters do not have games out, and FE Heroes isn't exactly the best way to make it work. It's still an awesome thing to have exist(since it overall is a great way to show off tons of cool characters). Promotional Picks aren't understandably not that popular, but it overall is the best approach to make sure everything goes smoothly as much as possible. As long as pirating exists, what is basically a series that does high advertising absolutely will try to make sure said piracy is unlikely. In fact, the "timing of who gets in" is literally based around having an active product so said character at least advertises something you should be able to find. Respectively, a lot of other fighting games don't worry as much about that, outside of Crossovers, and they clearly are less advertisey than Smash inherently(they still do newer characters too, of course). It's just not the same effect since said games also rotate members and cut far more frequently than Smash dares to. That's kind of a big deal.

I'd be more willing to entertain this take if Nintendo's own preservation practices weren't infamously terrible. The amount of Nintendo games featured in Smash alone that you can't legally play unless you own them on their original hardware is kinda hilarious, especially if you count Spirit cameos. (Super Mario Sunshine, of all things, wasn't rereleased a single time prior to 2020 in a collection you can't buy anymore unless you're lucky enough to see it in a brick-and-mortar store.) I see this as yet another unfortunate symptom of the problem rather than a solution of some kind. If Nintendo doesn't want people pirating their old stuff, that's on them to make their retro library more accessible, not on a single game to only add characters from games you can currently buy. Not ditching VC for no reason would've been an easy fix in that regard.

 

[Champion of Hyrule]

I’m glad Marth is in smash and continues to be popular from that but if smash were to only have like 3 or 4 Fire Emblem characters in the next game he’s not as much of a priority as people say he should be. I see people arguing Marth should be the one constant fire emblem character and I disagree. I don’t think he’s necessarily “the main guy” because he was the protagonist of the first game.

 

[Wario Wario Wario]

I see this as yet another unfortunate symptom of the problem rather than a solution of some kind. If Nintendo doesn't want people pirating their old stuff, that's on them to make their retro library more accessible, not on a single game to only add characters from games you can currently buy. Not ditching VC for no reason would've been an easy fix in that regard.

I didn't really read Scalesworth's post as necessarily endorsing Smash's attitude towards modern/retro disparity, but yes, this is what I was thinking about the post.

 

[Perkilator]

Quoting from the next Smash thread:

I've been thinking about the conversation regarding Min Min when it comes to faithfulness, and then I thought...yeah, her faithfulness was kind of to a fault. So I decided to redesign her moveset to be relatively simpler but still unique in its own right.

Spoiler

Intro: Min Min jumps onto the stage while corkscrewing, after which she assumes both the Gai Bù and then the Jin Ji Du Li upon landing.

Stance/Idle 1: Her idle stance from ARMS.
Idle 2: Min Min hops on both feet and briefly brandishes her left arm above her whilst her other arm is held behind her.
Idle 3: Min Min raises her left arm and lowers it in front of herself in a fighting stance.

Notable Palette Swaps

1. “Up” colors (default)
2. “Right” colors (cyan)
3. “Down” colors (red)
4. “Left” colors (yellow)
5. Spring Man (red/blue)
6. Ribbon Girl (pink)
7. Ninjara (blue)
8. Twintelle (white)

Walk: Her walk animation from ARMS.
Dash: Min Min dashes with both ARMS flailing behind her.
Damage: Her damage animation from ARMS.
Jump: Her jump animation from ARMS.
Crouch: Min Min assumes the Pu Bu, a crouching stance.

Fighter Ability: ARMS
While her left arm always uses the Dragon ARMS, Min Min’s right arm can be equipped with three different types of ARMS

• Megawatt (default): The strongest but also the slowest
• Dragon: The most balanced in power and speed
• Ramram: The quickest but the actual arm doesn’t go far, instead firing the Ramram like a typical projectile

Normal Attacks
Jab: A mid-level roundhouse kick (2%), followed by a legsweep (2%), finishing with a high-level roundhouse kick (6%, small knockback). Holding A follows up with a flurry of kicks (.5% each hit).
Forward+A: A horizontal spin kick (8%, small knockback)
Up+A: A handstand version of the aú aberto (7%, small knockback)
Down+A: A baseball slide (7%, small knockback)
Dash Attack: A flying kick (10%, OK knockback)
Edge Attack: A sliding low-level roundhouse kick (9%, small knockback)
Get-Up Attack: A sweep kick (7%, small knockback)

Aerial Attacks
Air+A: Min Min swings her right arm around herself in a downward circular motion (damage and knockback depends on the ARMS her right arm is equipped with)
Air Forward+A: An axe kick (13% with a meteor effect, OK knockback)
Air Back + A: A spin kick (10%, OK knockback)
Air Up+A: A bicycle kick (8%, small knockback)
Air Down+A: A dive kick (11%, OK knockback)

Smash Attacks
Forward+A: A powerful back kick that can be angled (18%, medium knockback)
Up+A: A handstand bicycle kick that can reflect projectiles (15%, OK knockback)
Down+A: A split kick (15% on each side, OK knockback)

Grab Game
Grab: Min Min stretches out both arms at once to grab the opponent.
Pummel: A knee strike (2%)
Forwards+Throw: Min Min punches the opponent with her left arm (10%, OK knockback)
Back+Throw: A German suplex (14%, OK knockback)
Up+Throw: Min Min backflip kicks into the air before swiping horizontally with both arms, launching the opponent at a diagonal downward angle (11% with a meteor effect, OK knockback)
Down+Throw: Min Min strikes the opponent with rapid kicks (8%, small knockback)

Special Moves
B : Dragon; Min Min fires a short burst of Dragon fire from her left arm, and unlike her game of origin, her left arm fires a normal fireball instead of a long beam (12%, OK knockback). When used in midair, Min Min instead swings her left arm around herself in a downward circular motion (12%, OK knockback). If Min Min attacks opponents with a throw, the Dragon on her left arm is empowered by 1.4x.
B + ← → : Right ARMS; Min Min punches forward with the ARMS on her right arm. Holding B charges the power of the attack, with a full charge giving you a different effect.

• The Megawatt’s charge increases the damage of the attack
• The Dragon’s charge adds an extra explosion at the end of the attack
• The Ramram’s charge increases the knockback of the attack

B + ↑ : ARMS Uppercut / ARMS Hook; on the ground, Min Min uses her left arm Dragon to charge an uppercut performed with her right arm. In midair, Min Min instead uses her left arm as a grappling hook.
B + ↓ : Change ARMS; Min Min switches between the Megawatt, Dragon and Ramram for her right arm.

Final Smash: ARMS Rush; Min Min fires an astonishing blast from her left arm, with a different effect depending on the ARMS equipped on her right arm.

• If her right arm is equipped with a Dragon, her left arm fires a fiery stream that only fires straight forward
• If her right arm is equipped with a Megawatt, her left arm fires an electrified beam that can be angled up or down
• If her right arm is equipped with a Ramram, her left arm fires a vortex of wind that deals no damage but instead pushes opponents away

Taunts
Up: Min Min performs a left-legged roundhouse kick followed by a right-legged side kick.
Side: Min Min performs the Jǐ and Àn movements from 24-form tai chi chuan, then assumes the Jin Ji Du Li stance.
Down: Min Min sways her ARMS in alternating circles before assuming the Tūn Bù.

Winposes
1: Min Min raises her left arms in the air, whilst simultaneously swaying her hips towards her right. Afterwards, she waves both her arms in alternating circles, and then assumes the Fú Hǔ Bù while saying "我愛拉麺！" ("I love ramen!").
2: Min Min performs a butterfly twist, followed by a right-legged wheel kick, followed by a left-legged roundhouse kick while saying "謝謝！" ("Thank you!").
3: Min Min performs a roundhouse kick before assuming the Chā Bù.

Applause: Min Min tries to clap with both Dragon ARMS.
Icon: The symbol used for the ARMS Grand Prix.
Boxing Ring Title: The Ramen Bomber
Star K.O.: https://youtu.be/q9bEvVPKZto?feature=shared&t=70
Victory Music: ARMS Grand Prix Official Theme Song
Kirby Hat: Min Min’s hair and hat.

 

[LiveStudioAudience]

Somewhat related to the conversation about preservation, but given the evidence that Nintendo archives so many things from their game development, if we're going to have Smash as a gaming celebration, then let's have one game really embrace the museum concept and just load up the game with all sorts of old art and concepts from previous SSB titles that didn't make to the final version. Konami and Digital Eclipse did wonderful things with the TMNT Cowabunga Collection's features, and it doesn't seem like that much of an ask to have Smash do something similar. And I don't care if it takes time and resources away from core gameplay a bit, little stuff like this just adds to the overall package of SSB.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Verde Coeden Scalesworth : If they really want to push Smash as more of a vehicle for advertising other games, they should make it so that it's a late console release celebrating thing on the console it's already on rather than an early console release essentially celebrating the previous console.

But that's not what I was getting at. It's that, due to it having an advertising effect, choices are being made that meshes much better with the actual product and helps the business side of things, while obviously not being only that. We still get many characters who aren't active at all, and sometimes not even their franchises are very active. It's not that often either, but it still happens.

Besides, that's completely ignoring how difficult it is to randomly have games always available. This has nothing to do with preservation(which is not what I was getting at). It's that characters are chosen more around active product due to making things much easier. Inactive product still absolutely happens, but it's harder to focus on. Besides that as well, it's also a lot easier to get a recent character out because they're from a game more known to a casual fanbase due to releasing not that long ago. A lot of deeper picks are also ones that aren't necessarily easy for the fanbase to recognize(which we are not the core one either, as it's the casual fanbase, who don't heavily debate, if at all, about Smash etc. They're just random players who play for the fun of it. This also means recent stuff is easier for them to recognize. Why does that matter? Because they're the main demographic, so naturally for business reasons, a lot of it will cater to the most likely ones to get easy product from). It's not just about product either, though. That's just part of it. If a character isn't interesting, they still don't get in. Ideas matter more than business. Pac-Man couldn't get into Brawl despite being asked for due to a lack of ideas at the time, and it's always got active product around to get easy sales.

Plus, it's pretty obvious advertising is pushed a bit more, especially during DLC, when they literally did so at times. B&K were made very clear if you want to play the series, go to Microsoft. Some were also at the time we got re-releases of 3rd party stuff(SNK in general, more Dragon Quest games, for instance). ARMS was given a boost to try and regain some of its popularity. It's not all of it either, but some is there.

 

[Quillion]

Verde Coeden Scalesworth : Yeah, I know that synergy between a Smash release and what's being released at the time matters. I also know there needs to be synergy between being an advertisement and just plain "being fun" rather than focusing on one or the other.

That's much of why I think focusing on the "marketing mainstays" over "recent faces" works for fighters. The "marketing mainstays" are still in prominence so that fans are aware of them AND they're typically side characters that are more interesting than the main characters.

 

[Perkilator]

While the Eggrobo is a fun enemy to fight in Smash Run, I never understood why it got in over more iconic Sonic enemies like Motobug and Egg Pawn. The latter especially, since Egg Pawns are known to wield plenty of weapons.

 

[Wario Wario Wario]

Of the immediate Jigglypuff evolution line, there is only one valid pick for a clone for Puff IMO, and that's Igglybuff - because Igglybuff, being a baby and all, exaggerates the main defining quality of Jigglypuff as a Smash inclusion, juxtaposition. Wigglytuff downplays it and Scream Tail elimnates it, which I both think would be kinda neat in a transformative way if Smash had better Pokemon rep, but with Pokemon having had such an oversaturation of cool in Smash, it'd be real lame to take one of the uncool ones and make it cool, even if Wiggly/Scream coexisted. I also think Igglybuff is the only valid replacement for Puff whatsoever, and that includes retroactive Smash 64 reworks.

 

[fogbadge]

I also think Igglybuff is the only valid replacement for Puff whatsoever, and that includes retroactive Smash 64 reworks.

i don't think the timing would work

 

[UserKev]

Not gonna call out names but I find some characters "pretentious" no matter how well known they are. Hate on Bugsy all you want but he'd actually be right at home in Smash. No matter how I shake it, some recent reveals have been giving me a "stiff" feeling.

 

[Wario Wario Wario]

Not gonna call out names but I find some characters "pretentious" no matter how well known they are. Hate on Bugsy all you want but he'd actually be right at home in Smash. No matter how I shake it, some recent reveals have been giving me a "stiff" feeling.

I have no real clue what you're talking about, but I guess I'll say that while I don't think a Smash character inclusion alone can be "pretentious" so to speak, I do think that - as I hope I've made clear by now - Smash's marketing, and branding, and story modes, and original content are... maybe not pretentious, but self-important and insecure. It feels like they're embarassed about making a silly, colourful kids' game, and are trying to cater to people who feel the same way instead of just embracing goofiness and fun. Absolutely the same vibes as edgy 90s US Nintendo ads.

 

[Perkilator]

Over time I’ve warmed up to the idea of Alear fully using the Emblems in their moveset…just not the Emblems based on characters who are already playable in Ultimate.