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Zelda Franchise Discussion

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HylianHeroBigBoss

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That's why I only said it might give us a hint ;)
A hint that they are going back towards a more Twilight like style perhaps? Otherwise you would think they would base it on the most recent game.

At the very least, if they want to best show of the new HD capabilities of the Wii U then a more Twilight styled game would best show that off.
Possibly, id welcome another that had the tone and similar design to TP. Wind Waker HD only came about due to them fooling around with past games and their graphical design for possible new looks for the next one, so it could go the otherway as well, hard to say right now i suppose.
 

Scoliosis Jones

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If you read the most recent line of discussion it has been suggested that Impa would more likely be a clone of Sheik with both in the game.

I have no idea where people got the idea that Impa would need to replace Sheik. We know how resistant Sakurai is to removing characters and how relatively easy it is to make clones.
I'd go so far as to say it's virtually a sure thing that Impa won't get in if Sheik is left out.


It makes sense that Impa would have a very similar moveset to Sheik since she trained Sheik in the first place!
Including a clone of Sheik for a character who makes perfect sense to be a clone and is the most logical Zelda newcomer seems at quite a decent chance.
I'm not saying the recent comments were suggesting that, as I have read them. But it has been suggested before. I'm simply stating my thoughts on that.
 

TheHandyman

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But Tetra didn't even know she was Zelda unlike Sheik, Tetra was born a pirate, and she believed she was one until she was told who she really was. sure they were disguised for the same purpose (To hide from Ganondorf) but that's where the similarities pretty much end. And I find it quite ironic you accuse Wind Waker for taking things from Ocarina of Time but letting Twilight Princess get away with it despite one of the common criticism's for that game was it reused too many elements from Ocarina of Time.

I must not have explained my point clearly. I like Princess Zelda, the character. I think she is the bedrock of the Legend of Zelda, both in terms of a video game series that we real humans play and in terms of the fictional lore the series has developed in its mythos. Putting the princess in a disguise so that she runs around as some other character for half the game is, in my view, damaging the value of the character of Princess Zelda. (I care a great deal about the value of characters because I am in the character IP business myself.) In Ocarina of Time, this was acceptable, because Zelda herself was responsible for her disguise and she knew who she was and what she doing; and she never lost awareness of her specific purpose in the history of Hyrule. In WW, Nintendo repeated the same trick of not letting Zelda be Zelda and dressing her up as some other character for half the game. This time, however, the technique did not work as well, because Tetra had no idea she was Zelda, and "Princess Zelda" herself did nothing whatsoever to move the game's plot along. As soon as Zelda was revealed, they stuck her in a basement and kept her there for the rest of the game. The whole of Wind Waker was about finding and awakening the legendary hero--no one, except for a couple of conversations that are unreadable upon the first playthrough of the game--paid much concern at all to the legendary princess (and the princess, as evidenced by the title, is the legend. The hero is not. I'm against the portrayal of Link as some destined hero in the first place--he should just be some ordinary guy who does his job and gets quickly forgotten by history as soon as his job is done).

Also, I'm not letting Twilight Princess get away with anything. I barely even mentioned that game. The fact is, though, that Wind Waker rips much more off of Ocarina of Time than TP does. Outside of the sailing (which has always been regarded as one of the weaker aspects of the game) and the use of the extra character in some of the dungeons, there are very few original dungeon or boss concepts in WW. Most of the stuff had already been done in the N64 Zeldas to some degree. The primary thing TP has in common with OoT is that it looks the same. Wind Waker looks nothing like either of them, and it seems this causes many people to forget just how similar to OoT that game is. What's really hypocritical is people blasting TP for being too similar to OoT and praising WW for somehow being different when, in fact, WW is much more guilty of ripping off both OoT and MM.

That's why I said that Toon Zelda is the best solution for your "problem" here. Wether you like how she was portrayed in Wind Waker or not. She is still a princess and she can fill in your "Zelda needs to be a princess" criteria easily. There, problem solved.

Possibly. I'm not against the inclusion of Toon Zelda, although I don't really see the need for her. How would Toon Zelda differ from Adult Zelda, though? Is there any way Toon Zelda would not be a clone? Do we want even more clone characters?

Besides. SS Zelda is still Zelda, she is the title character. The series is named "The Legend of Zelda" not "The Legend of Princess Zelda" (Although that would have lifted many confusions of wether Zelda was the hero or the princess)

The Legend of Zelda actually refers to the Sleeping Zelda in Zelda 2. I'm sure many would argue that the meaning of the title has changed since then, but I would counter by saying not all change is good. In my experience, I've never come across someone who's actually played one of the games who thought the dude you controlled was Zelda. Even in the older games, it's pretty clear that your character is a boy, and "Zelda" is a girl's name. This phenomenon seems to be more common among people who have heard of the series, but not played them.

By the way, I don't mind that Skyward Sword Zelda wasn't a princess. But I don't want to be stuck for the next seven or eight years with a Smash Bros. game that misrepresents Zelda, either the character or the series.

Yes she could get different types of clothing and I honestly don't mind that. But if she would only get one, it would likely be her other SS costume... :/
 

Curious Villager

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@TheHandyman Please use proper quotation marks, it's difficult to tell which part's your quoting when it looks like your talking to yourself rather than replying to me. Just a friendly advice. ;)

I must not have explained my point clearly. I like Princess Zelda, the character. I think she is the bedrock of the Legend of Zelda, both in terms of a video game series that we real humans play and in terms of the fictional lore the series has developed in its mythos. Putting the princess in a disguise so that she runs around as some other character for half the game is, in my view, damaging the value of the character of Princess Zelda. (I care a great deal about the value of characters because I am in the character IP business myself.) In Ocarina of Time, this was acceptable, because Zelda herself was responsible for her disguise and she knew who she was and what she doing; and she never lost awareness of her specific purpose in the history of Hyrule. In WW, Nintendo repeated the same trick of not letting Zelda be Zelda and dressing her up as some other character for half the game. This time, however, the technique did not work as well, because Tetra had no idea she was Zelda, and "Princess Zelda" herself did nothing whatsoever to move the game's plot along. As soon as Zelda was revealed, they stuck her in a basement and kept her there for the rest of the game. The whole of Wind Waker was about finding and awakening the legendary hero--no one, except for a couple of conversations that are unreadable upon the first playthrough of the game--paid much concern at all to the legendary princess (and the princess, as evidenced by the title, is the legend. The hero is not. I'm against the portrayal of Link as some destined hero in the first place--he should just be some ordinary guy who does his job and gets quickly forgotten by history as soon as his job is done).
I "think" I see where you are coming from. Though if the whole timeline thing is anything to go by. The Hero of Time didn't return in the Adult timeline which means the Spirit of The Hero that was established in Skyward Sword couldn't reincarnate in the Wind Waker since he removed himself from existence by going back in time and change history. Wind Waker Link in that sense, is a completely different person unrelated to the Spirit of the Hero. But that doesn't mean he has no qualities of his own. Due to not being born a Hero, the Hero of Winds had to go through several trials in order to be recognized a hero by the gods, just like the Spirit of the Hero had to. Besides there is also the fact the Hero of Winds set out on his journey for more personal reasons rather than just destiny to save the world. He set out because he wanted to save his sister, but then he got himself involved into other matters and then chose to save the world itself.

I do understand why you are disappointed in Zelda not doing much else besides waiting in the basement of Hyrule castle until the end of the game where she assisted you in battle with Ganondorf. That was indeed a little disappointing that we didn't get to see more of her. But hey, it's not like she hadn't been given worse roles over the course of the series...

Also, I'm not letting Twilight Princess get away with anything. I barely even mentioned that game. The fact is, though, that Wind Waker rips much more off of Ocarina of Time than TP does. Outside of the sailing (which has always been regarded as one of the weaker aspects of the game) and the use of the extra character in some of the dungeons, there are very few original dungeon or boss concepts in WW. Most of the stuff had already been done in the N64 Zeldas to some degree. The primary thing TP has in common with OoT is that it looks the same. Wind Waker looks nothing like either of them, and it seems this causes many people to forget just how similar to OoT that game is. What's really hypocritical is people blasting TP for being too similar to OoT and praising WW for somehow being different when, in fact, WW is much more guilty of ripping off both OoT and MM.
Please list all the thing's Wind Waker has reused then and we will compare the two Gamecube Zelda's alright? But honestly, I really don't think this is much of an issue. Especially since their both Zelda games, had it been a separate series that copies OoT then I would understand. But both games are part of the same series so I don't really see the problem if they borrow elements from each other. But I guess that's just me. :/

Possibly. I'm not against the inclusion of Toon Zelda, although I don't really see the need for her. How would Toon Zelda differ from Adult Zelda, though? Is there any way Toon Zelda would not be a clone? Do we want even more clone characters?
Sakurai will probably figure something out. Or maybe not. She could probably make use of some of the items the other Toon Link's used like they made Zelda use items from OoT Link. One plus for her though is the ability to turn into Tetra which opens doors to her to a completely different moveset from Sheik imo.

The Legend of Zelda actually refers to the Sleeping Zelda in Zelda 2. I'm sure many would argue that the meaning of the title has changed since then, but I would counter by saying not all change is good. In my experience, I've never come across someone who's actually played one of the games who thought the dude you controlled was Zelda. Even in the older games, it's pretty clear that your character is a boy, and "Zelda" is a girl's name. This phenomenon seems to be more common among people who have heard of the series, but not played them.

By the way, I don't mind that Skyward Sword Zelda wasn't a princess. But I don't want to be stuck for the next seven or eight years with a Smash Bros. game that misrepresents Zelda, either the character or the series.
Yeah the meaning of the title has changed over the years. In fact I could argue that the name "The Legend of Zelda" has the biggest meaning to Skyward Sword Zelda than any other princess in the series since it's her Legend that starts the course of the whole series and how everything gets into play over the series. You could say Skyward Sword Zelda is the most important Zelda in the series. But hey,in the end that's all just a matter of opinion right? You said it yourself, in your opinion, the title refers to the Zelda of Zelda 2. Others might say the title means a lot equally for all Zelda's in the series, or maybe it's most important for OoT Zelda etc etc.

There still actually are people out there who still mistake the Title character for the Hero you play as believe it or not. But yeah, like you said, it's more common with people who heard of the series but probably didn't play them.

Honeslty, I really don't think this is much of an issue at all. I could bring Toon Zelda up again but then we would be going in circles so lets just agree to disagree alright?


Anyway's. I'll be doing some stuff in order to celebrate my birthday today so I probably don't have the time to reply to you today so you probably have to wait until tomorrow before I can reply to you again if you have any more additions. Just though I'd tell you. ;)
 

Diddy Kong

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To the people saying Impa would be a Sheik Luigified clone (assuming both would be in) why not have her being a mix of styles of Zelda and Sheik? Zelda is a mage-fighter of sorts, Sheik a ninja, Impa could easily be both. Plus, Impa has the barrier and all, while Zelda has Nayru's Love. I think she could be a very fast, combo-based, ninja-mage-fighter. I always suggested she would have moves similar to Lucario and Lucas' Aura / PSI infused attacks, but with magic, not unlike Zelda.

Also, Zelda herself doesn't really like being Sheik apperantly. :smirk:

 

FalKoopa

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A change of topic: Who, in your opinion, is a better villain representative of the Toon Link games?
Vaati or Toon Ganondorf? Or someone else?
 

Fire Emblemier

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A change of topic: Who, in your opinion, is a better villain representative of the Toon Link games?
Vaati or Toon Ganondorf? Or someone else?
Its definitely not going to be villains of the DS Toon Link games, I can't decide on either though, Thier both good representatives for Toon Link villians
 

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Toon Ganondorf is the most likely as much as I enjoyed Vaati. If its both the turn of SS and WW HD for smash, then the roster could be something like this for Zelda. Link, Zelda/Sheik, Toon Link, Toon Zelda/Tetra (Toon Sheik?) and Toon Ganondorf. Maybe Ghirahim and/or Impa alongside them. I think that's the most realistic thing they would do in terms of the Zelda cast... =/
 

Diddy Kong

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I don't really feel Toon Zelda / Tetra warrants inclusion. Even though they'd be kind of cool.
 

Curious Villager

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I don't really feel Toon Zelda / Tetra warrants inclusion. Even though they'd be kind of cool.
Well if Sakurai really planned to make Toon Zelda and (hopefully it was) Tetra playable in Brawl and the Wind Waker HD remake was brought to his attention soon enough. He might actually try to include them this time around... Probably as a last priority again but still... =/
 

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If Impa and Zelda are separate and we have no Sheik, I'd be cool with it. Cause seriously, 4 playable characters from the Zelda series is quite a lot already... BUT 4 DIFFERENT CHARACTERS THAT ARE ZELDA...?!? Is kiiiiinda pushing it you know?
 

Curious Villager

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If Impa and Zelda are separate and we have no Sheik, I'd be cool with it. Cause seriously, 4 playable characters from the Zelda series is quite a lot already... BUT 4 DIFFERENT CHARACTERS THAT ARE ZELDA...?!? Is kiiiiinda pushing it you know?
Tell that to Sakurai, he apparently planned to have four Zelda's in Brawl. ¬_¬ (technically Sheik and Tetra are connected to the two Zelda's so its actually two Zelda's but yeah...)
 

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If I'm not mistaken, Tetra has actually been in more games than any other Zelda character, so it makes sense that she'd be in the game. I would definitely just want to see her as a non-transforming Tetra though, not Zelda. The pirate girl just fits her so much better than a dress does and looks a little less like they just threw in toon versions of everyone. If she was a clone character (because, well, let's be honest) who would she be a clone of?

While of course independent characters are cooler than clones, I do think there's something fun about slow/powerful clones of fast characters and vice versa. It could be fun to see Toon Ganondorf as a slower/powerful clone of Lloyd Irving and Tetra be a fast clone of... um. Someone. Nothing actually makes much sense, especially if Sakurai wants to avoid characters wielding knives... Actually, the thing that makes the most sense would be a heavily luigified version of Toon Link and perhaps giving Toon Link new specials from his own games? She has a blade, the pirates love bombs, and she could shoot Light Arrows. Maybe her Up Special could be her launching out of a cannon instead, replace the boomerang with, I dunno, Bombchus?

Hmm.
 

Diddy Kong

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Solo Tetra and solo Impa? I'd be down for that.

It balances well you know. 3 dudes, and 3 chicks.
 

Robert of Normandy

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If I'm not mistaken, Tetra has actually been in more games than any other Zelda character,
She's been in 2. OoT Zelda has also been in 2(OoT, and a brief appearance in Majoras Mask). ALttP Zelda has appeared in 2 if you count AST.

Also CDi Zelda was is 3 games. :troll:
 

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Tetra did make a cameo in Spirit Track and she was mentioned a few times in that game as well but yeah. She only appeared twice really. But Tetra was definitely in more Zelda games than Sheik ever did. (Well, only one more and one cameo but still...)
 

Diddy Kong

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Impa was also mentoined in Twilight Princess. And has a very brief cameo in the Wind Waker.

Was Spirit Track anything good btw?
 

Curious Villager

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Impa was also mentoined in Twilight Princess. And has a very brief cameo in the Wind Waker.

Was Spirit Track anything good btw?
Well besides the Spirit Flute that liked to act like a jerk sometimes (Though I figured out a way to make it easier for myself)), I "personally" thought Spirit Tracks was a pretty good Zelda game. But it's one of the less popular games in the series though. :/
 

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Tetra certainly has had a more central and present role than the typical "Zelda", though. Also, she has the benefit of having a personality beyond being captured. Besides, Smash has a conspicuous lack of females and, much more importantly, pirates.
 

LaniusShrike

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You're right, Tetra could get put in as a faster Captain Syrup clone! ;) I really am just reserving hope for Tetra and Ganondorf as clones to just round out the Zelda Tooniverse.
And Vaati.
And a million other characters, I'm sure. I got a lot of hope reserved.
 

SmashShadow

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Having a roster that is just a toon copy of the Zelda cast bores the **** out of me. I want diversity so I'll take Vaati over Toon Zelda and Toon Ganon anyday.
 

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Who's to say Toon Ganondorf would be there alongside TP, OoT or even a SS version of Ganondorf? If Toon Ganondorf makes it in, his design would likely just replace TP Ganondorf like TP Ganondorf did to OoT Ganondorf and just be called "Ganondorf" without the "Toon" part. And I think that's what people are referring to here. (At least I hope they do.) :/
 

SmashShadow

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Who's to say Toon Ganondorf would be there alongside TP, OoT or even a SS version of Ganondorf? If Toon Ganondorf makes it in, his design would likely just replace TP Ganondorf like TP Ganondorf did to OoT Ganondorf and just be called "Ganondorf" without the "Toon" part. And I think that's what people are referring to here. (At least I hope they do.) :/
I wouldn't say it's likely because I doubt that they'll give Zelda and Link one design and have Ganondorf as an outlier that visually connects more to Toon link than them. It's entirely possible that they will leave TP Ganondorf in because he contrast less with SS Link/Zelda than WW. It's also possible that they will create some sort SS design for Ganondorf.
 

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I wouldn't say it's likely because I doubt that they'll give Zelda and Link one design and have Ganondorf as an outlier that visually connects more to Toon link than them. It's entirely possible that they will leave TP Ganondorf in because he contrast less with SS Link/Zelda than WW. It's also possible that they will create some sort SS design for Ganondorf.
My bet would be on either a SS design of Ganondorf or either the return of OoT styled Ganondorf or the appearance of WW Ganondorf imo. :/ But if we have Toon Link back, I do think the Wind Waker design of Ganondorf is more likely but who knows really. :/
 

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Yeah, it seems exceedingly likely that Zelda, (adult) Link, and Ganondorf will all have the same style. Mostly, having other toon characters as clones seems in keeping with Sakurai's choices and the most realistic chance of their inclusion. Vaati the Wind Mage, however, wouldn't be able to be turned into a clone... which would be cool, having him as the representative of the Tooniverse's villain.
 

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I really think the Twilight Princess designs are just about the least likely route they'll go honestly.
 

LaniusShrike

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I really think the Twilight Princess designs are just about the least likely route they'll go honestly.
I've seen you say this several times but I'm still not sure why you think that, and I especially don't understand why you seem to think that the WW style is more likely. TP is the most recent appearance that had all three Triforce users. I do think that Skyward Sword is the more likely route they'll take, just to keep updating it to the most recent incarnation.

Besides, the realism of Twilight Princess most closely matches the "serious" nature of Brawl. Mario gets high-res denim instead of the bright cartoony colors that he actually uses in his games, it's not unreasonable to think that the game makers would want to maintain a grim theme throughout the game if they can.

In the end, however... Alternate costumes. I want ALL of their appearances. :D
 

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Cause with an easy split between Skyward Sword and Wind Waker designs for characters we have no characters around that'd be an eye-sore in the mix. Kinda like Toon Link in Brawl amongst all those TP characters (and Sheik). I think Toon Ganondorf fits easily with Skyward Sword's Link and Zelda. And Toon Link would just fit in nicely to. Much like Young Link did in Melee.

Only character not really fitting would be Sheik.
 

HylianHeroBigBoss

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I think Toon Ganondorf fits easily with Skyward Sword's Link and Zelda.
I wouldnt quite say that, he has different proportions and a far more exaggerated design than they do. Sure if they were using the cell shading from wind waker he would at least be close, but they will bring these characters into their art design, and even with that toon ganondorf will not mesh with them. But i will agree he could work well with toon link.
 

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Well what I'm honestly thinking is that people expect Twilight Princess styled Zeda characters onky cause they can picture Sheik in it that way.
 

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Well what I'm honestly thinking is that people expect Twilight Princess styled Zeda characters onky cause they can picture Sheik in it that way.
I think they might stick with TP-esque designs if Smash 4 has the same realistic style as Brawl. Once you take out the cartoony shading/colors, the only thing really seperating the TP/SS styles are the clothing and Links lips.
 

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I always thought the TP characters sort of stood out due to them being more dark than the rest of the cast.

COULD BE JUST ME THOUGH
 

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I honestly don't see them changing. Maybe they'll add Impa with a SS design, but I think the TP character designs look fine. To be honest, I always pictured SS Zelda as much less of a fighter than TP Zelda. I'm sure seeing it in action could change my mind, but I dunno.
 

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SS Zelda would canonically be the strongest of them all. Easily. So I don't really share that sentiment.
 
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