Yoshi Discussion

[SheerMadness]

It's not super easy for anyone just learning it. The fact that you're 5 times better than you were means your practice is paying off.

Keep practicing.

Double/triple f-tilts are quite common combo.

Dash attack, f-tilt, nair are Yoshi's keys to comboing vs light chars.

 

[mixa]

So I think I'm gonna pick up Yoshi this week, finally. The reason I didn't before is because I sucked (a lot) and could never get the timing for that DJC. My Yoshi is so bad I feel embarassed to use red.

What I am doing to practice the DJC timing is I essentially make the Nair have fixed knockback: I lock the dummy's % and get my Nair stale.
That way, I can always get the same knockback and hitstun. The same could be done with Uair chains, etc.

The first practice I am doing is vs Samus at 21%. This gives me 31 frames of hitstun for each Nair, and Samus won't tumble and fall if I miss. This is useful because you could set a comfortable threshold so a beginner could get started and gradually become faster/real.

Ultimately the goal is to be able to do that consistently vs Samus locked at 8%, which will give me 25 frames of hitstun, the same hitstun you get when you connect a Nair at 0% (vs Samus, Falcon, maybe others.) This method and this number (25F) is also relevant to shield breaking practice.

I still haven't a legitimate way to practice shield breaks by myself. Against CPs is annoying and not reliable. On versus mode it's useful if you're a beginner: assign your A input to the opponent's shield input -- so when you attack, they'll shield. This is even more unreliable because there'll be quite a few frames where the shield will be up needlessly, but useful to get the hang of it.

The good part (?)
A fresh Nair deals 14% and 26 frames of shieldstun (28 for those cheating Japanese players). And if I'm not mistaken, shieldlag and hitlag for Nair are the same (9F). Which means if you can keep the combo meter going, you're pretty much guaranteed to shieldbreak (no timing adjustment needed like when shine-canceling).
The downsides being: you're practicing without visualizing a shield, and when doing shieldbreaks you need move less than in a Nair chain.


Yes, I'm using an external program (cheat engine) to enable that. You just need another emulator (mupen rr) and the Madao table. It's very easy to use, you don't even need to know what 'byte' means.
edit: If you're interested, I can guide you through it.

Getting closer to Yoshi's feminine side

 

[Combo Blaze]

how to set % like that? I want to practice like that

 

[mixa]

Before I talk about the cheat engine stuff, I would like to share an interesting and somewhat more realistic practice on shieldbreaks based on this:

assign your A input to the opponent's shield input -- so when you attack, they'll shield.

And all you need is an emulator, no cheats.

Working hard(er)


After Yoshi's nair connects using the method described above, the opponent's shield will be up 4 frames longer than the shieldstun. To recap, Yoshi's nair deals 26F of shieldstun. So that method is 4 frames off. It's supposedly easier than it would be in a match.

The trick then is to stale the nair.

• Stale: 0.75x
• Level 1: 0.82x
• Level 2: 0.89x
• Level 3: 0.96x
• Fresh: 1.00x

When fully stale, nair deals 21F of shieldstun. 21 + 4 = 25F
When on Level 1, nair deals 23F of shieldstun. 23 + 4 = 27F
When fresh, nair will deal 26F (as I've stated). 26 + 4 = 30F

Now you can pick how hardcore you want to be. It's uncertain how fast you must be to shieldbreak in a real match, but in TAS world, it's 26F. I'd say if you have a lot of problems with it, start with 30F.

NOTE: the + 4 isn't constant, sadly. It assumes the shield was out for 4 frames before getting hit (i.e. Yoshi hit the shield with his first hitbox). It's not all bad news, though. If it's not +4, it's +3, +2, or +1. So if anything, you'll be getting less time, not more. Also, it's a lot easier to hit with the first frame of the hitbox.



All of the above is just an explanation of the thing. Here's a quick video exemplifying what you should do:

Even though this method should be possible with Ness and all shieldbreaks that rely on a single move, I only know that it works with these numbers and with Yoshi's nair. Anything else should be tested.



Happy shieldbreaking

 

[mixa]

how to set % like that? I want to practice like that

Ok, here's how.


The two programs needed are

1. Cheat Engine (link to download) and the table I will provide.
   
2. Mupen rerecording (link to download).

Install Cheat Engine.
Set up Mupen like any other emulator. You may want to switch video plugin to Jabo.



Watch this video in high-res to get an idea of what you'll do: http://youtu.be/IDtjTxq5LRE



The cheat engine table I used in the video can be downloaded here: https://www.dropbox.com/s/mp83l0zgobt7hzw/Yoshi DJC practice.CT
It all came from the extensive Madao table.



Basics of cheat engine

• Change the value of the selected address: press enter, type in the number, and enter again.
  
• Freeze or lock a value: press spacebar.
• Rename the description of an address: double left-click it.

You can also rearrange their order, rename them, delete them, and change their colors with right-click → change color.


Explanation of the video

First, connect the loaded game to the cheat engine through the little computer icon. Find mupen rerecording on that list.

Now in training mode, I stale my nair by connecting it once. Then I freeze the Dream Land wind so it won't ever wind.
After setting Player 2 Damage to whatever you like, freeze the value.
Once you finally make a save state, you're set to go. (I save stated it using the mouse to hopefully make it more clear for the viewer, but using the keyboard shortcuts is recommended.)

I frame advance when hitting my nair on Luigi to check under what Hitstun am I practicing on. In that case it was 39, which allows for a comfortable frame window to connect the next nair.

To frame advance, see this post.



More on the addresses listed in that cheat engine table

You may have to unlock characters, etc. To do that modify the values of the two last addresses accordingly.

Tips to position the CP and yourself:

• The address Player 2 Controlled by? if set to 0 allows you to control the CP through player 2's inputs.
  
• Using the address for the X / Y coordinates (see DL coordinates), you can precisely position you or the CP anywhere on the map.

To display no hitboxes (normal mode) set it to 0.


Combo, M!nt, or anyone: ask if you have questions/problems.

 

[SheerMadness]

What I am doing to practice the DJC timing is I essentially make the Nair have fixed knockback: I lock the dummy's % and get my Nair stale.
That way, I can always get the same knockback and hitstun. The same could be done with Uair chains, etc.

I'm not really sure I'm a fan of this type of practice. Perhaps for beginners who are just trying to get consistent with forward momentum nairs, but beyond that I wouldn't suggest it.

Knowing what works at certain % and how things change when percent is increased is crucial to Yoshi's horizontal combo game. When you feeze knockback and stun like that it'll mess with your in game combos.

 

[mixa]

Yes, I considered this practice could be detrimental in that it would distort the notion of a what a real combo is like in a game. But I believe I have said this is for beginners; for people who have trouble with DJC in the first place. I don't see it as a problem as long as we're aware.

THIS IS FAKE. THIS IS NOT HOW REAL COMBOS WORK IN THE REAL GAME. ALL YOU'RE DOING IS PRACTICING THE TOOL USED IN COMBOING. TO GRASP WHAT REAL COMBOS ARE LIKE, SIMPLY PLAY THE GAME AS YOU NORMALLY WOULD.
- PEACE
(DON'T SUE ME)

 

[SheerMadness]

I don't think you need to though. Nair chaining Samus is easy enough without having to freeze knockback and stun.

The benefit doesn't outweigh the cost IMO.

 

[mixa]

YOSCHI FRAME DATA / INFO / STUFF

The height you gain from using the down-B at the apex of your double jump is: 65. (edited)

That's all for now, folks. More fascinating stuff later.


Actually nevemind that. I'd rather know for how many frames the superarmor lasts. any1?

 

[stylisland]

YOSCHI FRAME DATA / INFO / STUFF

The height you gain from using the down-B at the apex of your double jump is: ~65.

That's all for now, folks. More fascinating stuff later.

I've done a down b under the dorsal wing on sector z and it seemed like I was below the sweet spot but I still grabbed the ledge. Guess that's the answer to what happened.

 

[SuPeRbOoM]

120 frames

 

[mixa]

Don't know how you know that, but thanks. Looks correct.

Complementary to misc Frame Display Yoshi section:

Opponent egg escape | 12 blue frames (http://i.imgur.com/3JaRlsp.gif)

Down-B after Double jump height boost = 65 (use down B when Yoshi is horizontal; more or less the last frames of this: http://i.imgur.com/6CDQ7u2.gif) "65?" The distance between the ground and DL's side platform is 900.

DJC Bair (or the timing for turning around during the DJ) | frame window = 3

If Jump and A are pressed at the same time → normal Bair (no 2nd jump)
If A is pressed 1 to 3 frames later than Jump → DJC Bair
If A is pressed 4 frames later than Jump → DJC Fair (Yoshi turns around)
​

Jump to DJ Landing (ground → side platform) | frame window = 3 (stick jump / standing c-jump)

Jump to DJ Landing (side plat → top platform) | frame window = 3 (slanted c-jump)​

 

[mixa]

http://www.nicovideo.jp/watch/sm23316116

jp ness' attack power is too strong

we need a video like this for yoshi

and there it is! Yoshi's shieldbreak punish vs Pikachu: http://www.nicovideo.jp/watch/1378083815

and this: utilt → pivot down B at around 65%

 

[SheerMadness]

Solid vid. Good % cues.

 

[Horbie]

Any tips for Yoshi recovery on Peach's Castle? The lack of edges to grab is killing me. I feel like every time I get knocked off unless I get a well timed/mind-gamed aerial on my opponent I just get knocked back off a little and plummet to my death.

 

[bloodpeach]

joke answer:
time your dj so that you have armor until you land

real answer:
dont get knocked off past 70% and expect to live

 

[Horbie]

Danke.

Also, any suggestions on how to practice DJC nair-ing? I'm having a pretty rough time trying to figure out the proper timing, especially for stringing them together.

 

[<Fruity>]

Yo, I don't think there is a tutorial for this, so I decided to make one myself.

time to practice it for the next APEX, all Yoshi warriors!

 

[Yobolight]

Dtilt seems amazing, anyone know any good uses for it?

 

[Saltsizzle]

Dtilt seems amazing, anyone know any good uses for it?

It has set knockback and a low hitbox so it makes for an OK edgeguard. I mostly use it after an opponent shields my Nair followed by jab to get a shieldstab and avoid being grabbed.

 

[Wizzrobe]

Dtilt seems amazing, anyone know any good uses for it?

I have been using d-tilt more, you can d-tilt ness at 0 and get him offstage if ur close enough to the ledge because it has set knockback. So you can basically kill ness off of d-tilt cause his recovery sucks. I have been using d-tilt to edgeguard fox and falcon recovering at low percent because it knocks farther than d-smash at low percents and has less cooldown.

 

[Sugaaku]

Question to the other Yoshi players out there.
Do any of you use his second jump landing thing to move around on platforms or continue combos.?
I usually do it on dreamland a lot, mostly to land an up-smash I think will kill.
I don't TRY to use it a lot, but since I learned to do it consistently, opportunities just seem to come up.
Any thoughts? Any strange methods you would like to share?

I definitely do on dreamland a lot, which can get me in trouble. but so worth when you get the upsmash

 

[Sedda]

god damnit i thought you were sangoku

smashboards is like an endless mirage of sangoku's and mixa's

 

[Sugaaku]

god damnit i thought you were sangoku

smashboards is like an endless mirage of sangoku's and mixa's

Haha just reading that makes me want to rewatch dbz again

 

[Deleted member]

What's the best way to djc + z cancel on an n64 controller with Yoshi?

 

[Sangoku]

There's no "best way" to do it. There are different techniques and eventually there isn't one that is better than the other. I think the two main techniques would be the following:
1) down C -> down C -> A -> Z.
2) down C -> down C -> R -> R.
You could also imagine doing the first jump with the joystick. Whatever feels more comfortable for you. Then practice timing, that is more important. Conceptually with Yoshi you want more time between the first jump and second jump than between second jump and A (or R), contrary to Ness, where the two jumps need to be really close together.

 

[Deleted member]

Thank you Sangoku. I am familiar with these techniques. I know you can also do down C -> down C -> A -> R. The biggest problem I struggle with is z canceling at the end. Especially when trying to shield break. And playing online, just makes it that more difficult. :/ Guess i need to just put in the hours, and find out which way works best to me.

 

[Sangoku]

Ah if you struggle with z-cancel, then your problem is hitlag messing up the timing. Do the mixa training, map P2's z button to P1's a. That way everytime you attack, P2 will shield. Then go to 1v1 and practice DJC nair on P2 and break his shield. Once your comfortable with that, go online and still miss them everytime because of lag/delay.

 

[Deleted member]

Sangoku, who do you main in Smash 64?

Ah if you struggle with z-cancel, then your problem is hitlag messing up the timing. Do the mixa training, map P2's z button to P1's a. That way everytime you attack, P2 will shield. Then go to 1v1 and practice DJC nair on P2 and break his shield. Once your comfortable with that, go online and still miss them everytime because of lag/delay.

I'm sorry but what is mixa training? Do you mean training mode? And how do I map buttons exactly? This seems like it will help me. I think once I learn how to djc + z cancel consistently and parry, I will be much better. Hopefully. Thanks a lot for the help!

 

[Sangoku]

mixa is the user who suggested this training (I think), in this very thread. Mapping buttons obviously assumes you're playing on emulator. Just go to options, controller settings and choose what you want to be used as P2's Z, as you would normally if you wanted to configure a controller/keyboard/whatever input you want to play with.

Don't forget to crouch before parrying, because you have more room for error.

 

[Deleted member]

mixa is the user who suggested this training (I think), in this very thread. Mapping buttons obviously assumes you're playing on emulator. Just go to options, controller settings and choose what you want to be used as P2's Z, as you would normally if you wanted to configure a controller/keyboard/whatever input you want to play with.

Don't forget to crouch before parrying, because you have more room for error.

Thanks Sangoku! :D I play on Project64k yes, and use an N64 controller. I'll try this out and report back!

mixa is the user who suggested this training (I think), in this very thread. Mapping buttons obviously assumes you're playing on emulator. Just go to options, controller settings and choose what you want to be used as P2's Z, as you would normally if you wanted to configure a controller/keyboard/whatever input you want to play with.

Don't forget to crouch before parrying, because you have more room for error.

I finally got this to work! It is very useful indeed, but I'm definitely going to need a lot more practice. Along with parrying as well. Thanx so much mixa and Sangoku! ^__^

 

[tyhiggz]

Yo, I don't think there is a tutorial for this, so I decided to make one myself.

time to practice it for the next APEX, all Yoshi warriors!

What are the inputs on this? Is this a double jump landing slide off (jump + left then jump + right)

I just found out that was possible earlier this week while goofing around with the dreamland platform edges.

 

[<Fruity>]

What are the inputs on this? Is this a double jump landing slide off (jump + left then jump + right)

I just found out that was possible earlier this week while goofing around with the dreamland platform edges.

Yes it is. Take into account that you have to wait 5 frames between the 2 jumps. I'ts kinda tricky, good luck with it

 

[Deleted member]

http://smashboards.com/threads/yoshi-mains-skype-group.405615/

 

[Sedda]

can someone teach me how to yoshi?

 

[syPHILys]

can someone teach me how to yoshi?

hit c twice then a then z.... also hit z a lot.....

 

[SSBPete]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BfyP7g0RU-U

 

[Technical_Knockout]

good stuff wonder if that works with kirby's brick?

 

[SSBPete]

good stuff wonder if that works with kirby's brick?

I think Kirbys brick only breaks if you spam

Edit: oh you mean slide off? That would be interesting

 

[Deleted member]

Just got a much more sturdy N64 controller. Finding it a lot easier to djc now. =)