Would you recommend teaching the claw from the get go?

[rjgbadger]

Weird situation, but I think there may be a net gain in skill for this.

I play my Fox with an overhand playing style, similar to a fight stick, and have fairly technical skill with it(Ive only been using it for ~6months, playing for <2years). My community here practically doesn't exist, but I've managed to have a good 2-5 friends interested in learning to play Melee(Fox or Falco specifically). Should I teach them claw style from the get go? A few of these people have never played a smash game before, so they would be learning everything about the game in a claw playstyle, with one specific character. We all agreed that the claw is great for tech skill and dexterity is better with your fingers rather than your thumb. Is there a possible detriment in doing this? Assuming all players would be practicing everyday and looking to constantly improve, and will continue playing through the steep learning curve.

Do you like claw/regret not initially learning it? The exact hand position is

left thumb- control stick
left index- L
right index- B/ c-stick
right middle- Y/A
right ring- Z
right thumb- ctick(uair only)

 

[knightpraetor]

possible disadvantages of the claw include accidental tapping of R when pressing Z (shouldn't happen more than 1% of the time)

possible carpal if they try for too unnatural of a hand position

and possible loss of accuracy on teh control stick due to needing to use L

that said, I use it and taught all my students to use that over the years..it has too many advantages to pass up.

one important thing is to realize that there are variations on hand positioning for the right hand of the claw, and they should adopt one that minimizes strain on their fingers...unnatural positions should be avoided at all cost

 

[Dart!]

when someone comes out with a video using the claw style and does something more impressive than what lovage or silent wolf can do ill buy.

 

[Bones0]

I don't regret not learning claw or fight-pad style because I've never felt limited by the way I hold the controller. Theoretically it seems pretty solid, but I think it should be noted that even with large amounts of practice, some configurations will always be physically superior to others. For instance, mouse vs. control stick for FPS games. I am quite adept with a stick and have been using it all my life, but even the first time I hopped onto a PC FPS, it didn't take long to realize that a mouse is simply vastly more accurate and easier to control. On the same note, I think things like SHing and c-stick would be more intuitive if the controller is held normally. I've never put in enough practice to be able to tell of course.

So overall, you can recommend it to them, but you definitely shouldn't act like it will give them a boost above anyone else. It will just make some things a little easier and some things a little more difficult. There won't be any real advantage once you get to a certain level.

when someone comes out with a video using the claw style and does something more impressive than what lovage or silent wolf can do ill buy.

Ummmm... Javi? lol

 

[Cactuar]

Javi didn't really do anything that we can't do with the standard hand position. The claw position allows for very pronounced separation of inputs, but doesn't display anything that is physically impossible or impractical to perform. The only thing to be mindful of when considering how you should hold the controller is "Can I easily express myself through this hand position?" The ideal platform to reach between the individual and their inputs is one of unity. When you want to do dashing sh nair, you should do a dashing sh nair. You shouldn't be thinking "I'll dash forward with my left thumb, tap y, tap a." The desire to do a dash sh nair should directly flow into doing dash sh nair. As long as your hand position does not inhibit that flow in any way, it doesn't matter how you hold the controller.

 

[rjgbadger]

I look at the issue much less as trying to attain unity with the character, rather the possibilities of the position, as with anything competitive flow and unity are assumed conditions. What I guess is more of the question is a hypothetical situation of 'If you picked up only one character (specifically the spacies) in the claw format rather than ever even learning to use your right hand as intended with that character, would you overall be a better player?' Based on knowledge that multiple fingers have more natural dexterity that your thumb, and that many advanced techniques require less movement, as each finger is assigned a specific duty.

 

[knightpraetor]

claw is just easier...it won't make a difference skill wise as most things i learned using claw I also was able to do without it...but less focus on technical things allows more focus on other stuff....

and i definitely think when i am approaching falco with a nair and am shot out of the air with a laser..i need a lot less effort to DI back while fairing than a marth who doesn't do that....it's only a few frames saved but without clawing I would lose a frame probably and then my fairs would be that much less likely to catch them before i touch down.

 

[Cactuar]

Your question has two components.

1) Is it easier to do technical things more consistently?
Yes, but you have a more awkward time pressing Z.

2) Will it make me a better player?
No. The result of either method is going the be the same for the most part.

 

[Kal]

Yeah, I assume the difference in consistency is negligible. For most people, consistency is a personal issue, having more to do with their ability to keep things together under pressure than their technical skill.

 

[Shai Hulud]

possible disadvantages of the claw include accidental tapping of R when pressing Z (shouldn't happen more than 1% of the time)

possible carpal if they try for too unnatural of a hand position

and possible loss of accuracy on teh control stick due to needing to use L

that said, I use it and taught all my students to use that over the years..it has too many advantages to pass up.

one important thing is to realize that there are variations on hand positioning for the right hand of the claw, and they should adopt one that minimizes strain on their fingers...unnatural positions should be avoided at all cost

You don't need to use L, though I don't think it hurts much if you do. I have my right ring finger on R, middle finger on Z, index and thumb for face buttons. I can L cancel with all three buttons pretty well but I prefer L or Z. Also I never have the issue of accidentally hitting R or Z when I try to hit the other.

I've been clawing for over six years and mostly I'd say it's awesome. Clawing, especially when the controller is held as I hold it, gives the player unparalleled control.

Advantages of claw:
Better aerial control due to being able to jump with Y and hit A/C stick with thumb.
MUCH easier to laser well especially SHDL
MUCH easier to waveshine well
MUCH easier to multishine
Techniques like drillshine->wavedash->upsmash are much easier
Can charge smashes with C-stick + A. This is useful when pivoting fsmashes in running direction.
Better control for ledge play
Various other techniques are much easier, and some techniques are simply not possible without clawing

Disadvantages of claw:
Steep learning curve. It may take months to develop adequate dexterity and even longer to master. In particular, wavedashing and short hopping are quite difficult at first. Blisters may form on index finger until callouses develop.
PAIN. Most of the time this is not an issue for me, but after playing at a tournament all day, or especially multi-day tournaments, my hand hurts like hell and this hampers performance. This is only noticeable really if you play technical with someone like Fox or Falco, clawing as Marth is not too hard on one's hands. Playing multiple characters can ameliorate the pain problem. Playing straight Fox all day while clawing can be very painful.

Something else to note is that clawing a gamecube controller may not be possible depending on hand and finger size. I have small hands which makes clawing easy. I imagine players with large hands might find it very difficult to hold the controller as I do.

 

[Shai Hulud]

Weird situation, but I think there may be a net gain in skill for this.

I play my Fox with an overhand playing style, similar to a fight stick, and have fairly technical skill with it(Ive only been using it for ~6months, playing for <2years). My community here practically doesn't exist, but I've managed to have a good 2-5 friends interested in learning to play Melee(Fox or Falco specifically). Should I teach them claw style from the get go? A few of these people have never played a smash game before, so they would be learning everything about the game in a claw playstyle, with one specific character. We all agreed that the claw is great for tech skill and dexterity is better with your fingers rather than your thumb. Is there a possible detriment in doing this? Assuming all players would be practicing everyday and looking to constantly improve, and will continue playing through the steep learning curve.

Do you like claw/regret not initially learning it? The exact hand position is

left thumb- control stick
left index- L
right index- B/ c-stick
right middle- Y/A
right ring- Z
right thumb- ctick(uair only)

This is a very strange form of clawing. There is no advantage gained by being able to press C-Stick with the index finger and this seems awkward as hell. Additionally, what is the point of right middle on Y/A? This setup prevents one from using the R button. I suppose if it works for you that's awesome but I don't want people reading this to get the impression that what you describe is "the claw".

Clawing refers to a variety of hand positions different from the normal one but the primary component is using the index finger for face buttons. The main version uses index finger on Y, X, thumb on A, B, C, and middle on R, Z. I do a slight variation with middle on Z, ring on R.

I have thought about the best way to hold the controller a lot and I have played hundreds of hours with multiple setups (normal, regular claw, and my variation of claw) and strongly believe that (for someone with small hands anyway) this claw variation is the most efficient way to hold the controller. And there are NO downsides to this grip aside from a learning curve and possible pain from extended use.

BTW most "technical" Fox/Falcos who do not claw, such as Silent Wolf, are using the control stick to jump. It's certainly possible to attain most of the advantages of clawing by being an expert with the control stick, but IMO it is far, far more difficult to do these things with the control stick, and it requires a great deal of dexterity with the left hand, as well as a particularly conditioned control stick. Additionally, the same degree of aerial control is not qutie possible by jumping with the control stick.

I'm sure it's possible to get CLOSE to claw-level control without using it, perhaps to the point where most people can't tell the difference, but it is far more difficult and requires more practice as well as an incredibly fast thumb.

 

[rjgbadger]

I achieve more reliable results with using my index finger over my thumb for the c-stick due to, and yes, this position eliminates the use of R entirely, forcing everything to the L button. this however doesn't really pose any real issue imo as the right hand is already performing so many actions.

 

[Lovage]

doesn't
make
a
difference

 

[Construct]

How on earth do people short hop with the control stick and maintain that level of technicality in tournament play? I can hardly SH with control stick in training mode

 

[Shai Hulud]

How on earth do people short hop with the control stick and maintain that level of technicality in tournament play? I can hardly SH with control stick in training mode

I can short hop with the control stick somewhat consistently by just flicking the stick upward, but it's difficult and I lose a lot of control over spacing of aerials since flicking the stick requires I take my thumb off it for a moment.

It is amazing that people are able to play well, and technically, with the control stick. IMO it's much harder than clawing. Maybe some of these people are left handed? I imagine being left handed would make jumping with the control stick easier.

 

[Cactuar]

It's the same as when you start trying to learn how to SH with Y or X imo. You just need to train the muscles to do it properly. Beginners ask for advice on how to short hop, and often get all these shortcuts like only hitting the corner and sliding the thumb off, but really... it just takes practice. You need to condition the muscles.

 

[Shai Hulud]

It's the same as when you start trying to learn how to SH with Y or X imo. You just need to train the muscles to do it properly. Beginners ask for advice on how to short hop, and often get all these shortcuts like only hitting the corner and sliding the thumb off, but really... it just takes practice. You need to condition the muscles.

I'm sure you're right that with practice one can learn to SH with any technique (standard grip using Y or X, claw using Y, control stick, etc.) but this doesn't mean that certain methods aren't easier than others, that the amount of practice required for mastery of different methods is the same, or that there aren't drawbacks to particular methods.

 

[ShineSpikeOverpowered]

Many of the best Russian Fox and Falco players use the claw (Prostitute Love, **** Hammer, myself, Bear Rapist) and it have work well for us. =)

 

[Shai Hulud]

Many of the best Russian Fox and Falco players use the claw (Prostitute Love, **** Hammer, myself, Bear Rapist) and it have work well for us. =)

What grip exactly are you using? I have seen at least four different grips described as "the claw" but think only two of them should be described as such. In particular the grip used by Javi and the OP, while interesting and unusual, should not be called "the claw" as it's not accurate. Claw grips are named such due to the resemblance of an actual claw or talon in the position of the fingers. Some grips being called "the claw" do not resemble a claw, but should be named something like "keyboard grip." If I understand the grip correctly, these players are pressing the face buttons with several fingers and resting the controller on their laps instead of gripping it with their right hand. Technically it's not even a grip (the right hand anyway) but I'm not sure what else to call it. I guess "keyboard style" would be pretty accurate.

Here are some of the various grips I have seen called "the claw" in relation to various SSBM players.

1. Standard Claw - index on Y, middle on R/Z, thumb on A/B/C
2. Modified Claw - index on Y, ring on R, middle on Z, thumb on A/B/C
3. Left-handed Claw - index plus thumb on control stick, middle on L, right hand normal
4. Double Claw - combination of 1 and 2/3
5. Keyboard Style - described by OP

IMO only 1 and 2 should be referred to as "the claw." 4 is a claw-style grip and so is 3 (to some degree) but referring to them as "the claw" is misleading and confusing. 5 is not clawing but is a different, unique hand layout.

Before anyone was clawing in SSBM (that I know of anyway) people were clawing Halo CE using grip 1 (its equivalent on the Xbox controller anyway). I was clawing in Halo before SSBM and decided it was an excellent grip for SSBM as well when I started playing. Since the Xbox controller has only one shoulder button on each side, though, it's not clear exactly how it translates to SSBM, which is why I think either grip 1 or 2 could be considered "the claw." The main requirement of a claw grip is that the thumb and index finger be used on the face buttons, and the rest of the fingers are on shoulder buttons or behind the controller, as this creates a hand shape that looks like an actual claw.

 

[PKSTkimo]

How on earth do people short hop with the control stick and maintain that level of technicality in tournament play? I can hardly SH with control stick in training mode

I was just thinking about trying the claw and I found this xD! Well I sh using control stick when I'm shdl, and use control stick when I'm on the ledge and wanna do dl at ground height.

I also use control stick to jump when I do shine-->any aerial.

 

[SuruStorm]

Is it unheard of to use R to jump?

 

[Sync8699]

I think you'd be good teaching them the normal hold (if for no other reason than that it'll feel more comfortable if any of your friends decides to play a non-spacie), just having them shift their hands to a claw position whenever tech skill dictates it. Just like moving your hand so that your pinky reaches from the blue to orange frets on a Guitar Hero controller, you can move your hand to the claw position in order to perform a select few techniques. I use a normal hold on my controller for everything (including DSHL, drillshining, waveshining, shine-grabs, shine-upsmash, upsmash oos, shine oos, etc.) EXCEPT for two techniques: multishining and jump-cancel upsmashing. You don't ALWAYS need your hand in the claw position if you only rely on it for the techniques that really demand that type of hold, imo. As long as you're okay with shifting your hand's position I say tell them to start however feels most natural.

 

[Zylo]

I think you'd be good teaching them the normal hold (if for no other reason than that it'll feel more comfortable if any of your friends decides to play a non-spacie), just having them shift their hands to a claw position whenever tech skill dictates it. Just like moving your hand so that your pinky reaches from the blue to orange frets on a Guitar Hero controller, you can move your hand to the claw position in order to perform a select few techniques. I use a normal hold on my controller for everything (including DSHL, drillshining, waveshining, shine-grabs, shine-upsmash, upsmash oos, shine oos, etc.) EXCEPT for two techniques: multishining and jump-cancel upsmashing. You don't ALWAYS need your hand in the claw position if you only rely on it for the techniques that really demand that type of hold, imo. As long as you're okay with shifting your hand's position I say tell them to start however feels most natural.

I've actually been doing this myself until recently. I would switch to claw for multishines and JC up-smash as well. The problem that I ran into is that, after playing for a while, my hands would start to get a lot more tired than when I remained in my natural position. In the long run, if you're having any hand troubles, I'd recommend learning every technique in whatever your normal hand position is. (Although I must admit that multishines in normal grip are a pain in the ass.)

 

[Sync8699]

For me, standard grip multishines aren't just hard, they're physically impossible. Switching up my hand position is a necessity if I don't want to have to entirely re-educate my hands how to use Fox from square 1 so that I can work multishining into my game. Fortunately, using multishines is something that is, I feel, only really useful in two situations:

*While dashing toward an opponent who has teched/is grounded near the edge of the stage
*After upthrowing near the edge of the stage

In both these situations, I have ample time to move my hand to the claw position, as I'm either just running or upthrowing (both of which only require a movement of the left hand's joystick). I think I've noticed what you mentioned about getting tired more quickly, but I feel these techniques (multishining especially) are physically demanding either way they're performed.