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Event - Apex 2015 Why is Brawl not being streamed this Apex?

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FreedomFighter

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It was barely streamed yesterday (a few pools matches I believe) and today on stream, was streamed for doubles for a bit and then quickly took off for Melee doubles.

There are two streams going on for Smash right now and they are both streaming Melee. I thought it was said this sort of thing wouldn't happen this time so what's going on? Wasn't the point of multiple streams to ensure all Smash games would be fairly streamed?

I like all Smash games btw, I just want to see some fair representation and I hope we don't miss too many hype Brawl bracket matches especially for singles (which have apparently already begun).

Edit:

I would also like to point out this is likely the last major Brawl tournament ever whereas Melee is likely going to be featured at Evo once again and also at MLG. So it's even more sad to see this sort of thing happen.

Edit:

Some people have stated below it's because Brawl doesn't get as many views as Melee and very few care about watching it. This would be a sound reason except it's completely false:

Youtube views for Apex 2013 GFs Brawl:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBGffJfBkd0 -- 159K

Youtube views for Apex 2013 GFs Melee:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iBMgkr-s4jI --81K

So that's nearly double the views for Brawl as Melee at the exact same tournament (this very tournament series) by the exact same uploader. So if anything, if we are going by the evidence and base it entirely over views, Brawl should be getting double the stream time of Melee. But again, I like both games, I just want to see equal representation as it was promised in the stream schedule.
 
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Yobolight

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Brawl just doesn't get the views that Melee and PM do. Basically very few people actually enjoy watching Brawl because Metaknight, tripping, Ice Climbers, Olimar, slow, etc.

Streaming is a business and streamers don't like losing money on streaming Brawl.

If you think Brawl should be streamed then you should stream it because most streamers care about the views.
 

FreedomFighter

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Brawl just doesn't get the views that Melee and PM do. Basically very few people actually enjoy watching Brawl because Metaknight, tripping, Ice Climbers, Olimar, slow, etc.

Streaming is a business and streamers don't like losing money on streaming Brawl.

If you think Brawl should be streamed then you should stream it because most streamers care about the views.
Last year at Apex Brawl got the most amount of viewers. Around 16K iirc at like 3AM in the morning. Melee only got up to around 12K and it was also due to people waiting for Brawl.

So there is no evidence to suggest Brawl would not get viewers. Quite the opposite actually proven by this tournament series itself.

Edit:

I'll add something to the OP to prove this point further.
 
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hichez50

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I like watching good player play their game. It isn't like pokemon is a fast paced game. This is primarily a SMASH tournament and a smash tournament and a fan mod and other fiighting games are getting more rep. It is a shame really.
 

pikmin.org

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Let's face it - the only reason that many people were watching Brawl GFs both on stream and on Youtube was because a ZSS was in it. Had it been, say, an MK ditto, the views (especially on Youtube but also on the stream)) would have been meagre in comparison to what they actually had.
 

FreedomFighter

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Let's face it - the only reason that many people were watching Brawl GFs both on stream and on Youtube was because a ZSS was in it. Had it been, say, an MK ditto, the views (especially on Youtube but also on the stream)) would have been meagre in comparison to what they actually had.
There hasn't been a single MK mirror in Grand finals of any Brawl tournament at Apex period. In fact, out of the 4 Apex tournaments before this one, MK has only won once. Lastly, the last national before this one for Brawl featured...0 MKs in top 4. Bearing all that in mind I don't see how this is any kind of solid argument. There is nothing to suggest that all we are going to see is MK mirrors in finals or even early bracket so Brawl should not be streamed at all.

At Apex 2012, almost every game in Melee GFs went to time. It was 2 sets...that was probably the longest Smash set in recorded history. But nobody said this is proof that Melee should never be streamed again because it was too "boring". It'd be extremely illogical to judge the entire meta over what happened just once. Once again we find double standards here when it comes to Melee and Brawl.
 

Djent

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Jaxel said RJ/Keitaro were disorganized, so that might mean 1) it's running late, or 2) he doesn't want to bother streaming it with all the inevitable downtime. My guess is 2) because Brawl dubs earlier was just...silly with the amount of sitting around (though at times Clash has been sort of bad too). There are definitely people who want to watch it (myself included).
 

Shadow the Past

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If the gossip I've been hearing about Jaxel is correct, I hope Apex staff doesn't bring him back for 2015 because this is just flat out unprofessional and disrespectful.
 
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This has nothing to do with playing favorites between games, even suggesting that is just flat-out disrespectful to the Apex staff. None of the streamers are paid to stream the game that gets the most viewers, they're paid to stick to a schedule. If that plan falls through it's because someone else ****ed up.
 

pikmin.org

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There hasn't been a single MK mirror in Grand finals of any Brawl tournament at Apex period. In fact, out of the 4 Apex tournaments before this one, MK has only won once. Lastly, the last national before this one for Brawl featured...0 MKs in top 4. Bearing all that in mind I don't see how this is any kind of solid argument. There is nothing to suggest that all we are going to see is MK mirrors in finals or even early bracket so Brawl should not be streamed at all.

At Apex 2012, almost every game in Melee GFs went to time. It was 2 sets...that was probably the longest Smash set in recorded history. But nobody said this is proof that Melee should never be streamed again because it was too "boring". It'd be extremely illogical to judge the entire meta over what happened just once. Once again we find double standards here when it comes to Melee and Brawl.
All I meant was that the high viewers for last year was an anomaly for Brawl, and that it's unfair to compare it to melee in that given year only. I'm not saying Brawl doesn't deserve to be streamed, or that it's boring or whatever. I'm just saying that it's not accurate to contrast one melee GF with one of the hypest brawl sets in history. I'll eat my words if this year's Brawl GF gets over 150k youtube views but I'm almost certain that last year was something exceptional (and thus not representative of what is likely to happen in a new scenario). Would you not agree with that?
 

TheBuzzSaw

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Because numbers don't matter when matches consist of throwing out aerials and hoping/praying the opponent runs into them.
 

ZLF Aurora

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Simple. Because trying to get hype from Brawl is like trying to jerk off to an SPCA commercial.

You just don't.
 

Jaxel

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Here's what happened... I WANTED to stream Brawl. However, I can not stream matches, that I am not given. The Brawl TO desk was literally right next to me; and I couldn't get matches from them. Don't misunderstand me, I love RJ and Keitaro, but they just weren't doing a good job running Brawl. Anyone who was watching the stream, could attest to the FACT that there was very often, 10-20 minutes of dead air in between matches. On Friday, I streamed Brawl for FOUR hours; and I only got about 98 minutes of match footage (the rest was dead air).

So Saturday comes along, and I start off with Melee Doubles. The Melee TO desk was LITERALLY across the entire venue from me; and anyone who was there can tell you the venue was PACKED. Yet, the Melee TOs had no issues keeping me stocked with matches to run; they almost always had something on deck, and sometimes 2-3 extra. The first few hours on Saturday were GREAT (except for us starting 60 minutes late, but that was because the website was down, and people needed help finding their pools, so the extra 60 minutes was granted to help the players).

Eventually the schedule calls for me to switch from Melee Doubles to Brawl Doubles. Which I do... and immediately, things start to slow down again. I was not getting matches, and I had to constantly hound RJ and the rest of the TOs to get me matches. Its not like I wasn't trying to get matches for the stream; I was doing what I could for you guys. According to the shifted schedule, I should have been streaming Brawl singles at around 4pm. However, by the time 4pm comes along, I don't think singles had even started. Meanwhile I'm running around trying to get TOs to get me matches.

SEVERAL times before this, as I am sitting on dead air on my stream, yelling out for matches, the Melee TOs are like "hey, we got matches to fill up your stream if you want!". And I am CONSTANTLY denying them, because I'm SUPPOSED to be doing Brawl. However, at around 4pm (I think), after getting exhausted from constantly getting nothing from the Brawl TOs, and sitting on 20 minutes of dead air, I get asked yet again to stream some "hype" Melee matches. At that point, I give in and say yes. Better to give you stream viewers SOMETHING to watch, rather than nothing. (before you get on me about the 90 minutes of dead air before KI, keep reading)

So at that point, I tell Maria to get me a setup for Melee. Then FINALLY, I get another match for Brawl. So we do the match for Brawl. I yell out to the TOs if they have anything else for me... nothing. So I say to Maria, okay, I'm done hounding the Brawl guys, lets set up Melee. So then we start running Melee; after a while, the Brawl TOs finally come back to me with another match. At that point, I've already got SIX Melee matches scheduled into the stream. (the Melee TOs were far more efficient). At this point, I still don't think Brawl singles had even started yet.

I did tell the Melee TOs though, that to keep with the schedule, I wont be doing anymore Melee after a certain time because I am scheduled for Marvel. I was guaranteed Marvel on the schedule; it was one of the things I specifically requested since they had not chosen me to be the main streamer this year (even though I did a good job last year, and showed continued loyalty, I still got demoted to 4th stream). So the time to start Marvel comes; and I break down my standard-definition kit, and set up my high-definition kit... Only to find out that Bifuteki was streaming Marvel.

I was scheduled for Marvel, I was guaranteed it. Bifuteki should not have been streaming it. So I'm told that Marvel will get switched over to my stream. Yet, time passes and nothing gets moved. Bifuteki continues to stream Marvel, burning out the available matches, and I have nothing to run. After 90 minutes of trying to get Marvel on my stream, Joe from RG asks if we can put Killer Instinct on my stream until Marvel shows up; and I say fine, because I'm sick of the dead air. Eventually we say "screw it", Bifuteki ****ed me over, and we finish off Killer Instinct on my stream.




If the gossip I've been hearing about Jaxel is correct
The "gossip" you hear about me has to do with Winter Brawl last year. BigE got pissed off at me, and threw me under the bus for not streaming Tekken. Why didn't I stream Tekken? Because of poor scheduling. The genius who scheduled Winter Brawl last year had EVERY 3D fighting game starting at the EXACT same time. Now, I know that Namco cares about Tekken the most; so I prioritized them for my stream. Which means, before the tournament, during casuals, I ran Soulcalibur; this way when the tournaments start, I could do Tekken. So the tournaments start; I am running the Soulcalibur tournament, I don't remember who was running Tekken. I ask if the Tekken guys are ready to put Tekken on my stream, they tell me no.

So I start the Soulcalibur tournament on my stream. Now, I've been going to BigE events for a decade, and for a decade, they have ALWAYS been run piss poor, with terrible scheduling. But I run Soulcalibur, so once we get started, we run fast (we often start late, because of BigE's terrible registration systems); but this time we started on time. Now the Soulcalibur community has been a part of the BigE events for a long time, we used to be his biggest draw. But after 2009, we didn't matter anymore. Normally we would run pools on Saturday, then the main stream gets the finish off finals on Sunday. However, the schedule is always ****, so the Soulcalibur players sit around for hours on Sunday until I'm eventually told to just run finals on my stream to clear up the schedule.

The Soulcalibur community has been dealing with this at BigE events for many events. And for several events already, we decided "**** that"; we're not waiting for Sunday, we'll run our finals on my stream on Saturday and call it a weekend. We always asked BigE first and he always said fine. So its Saturday night; I've still not been given any Tekken to stream, and we are just about done with the ENTIRE Soulcalibur tournament, half way through finals. This is the point they come up and tell me "its time for Tekken". And I'm like "uhh... no; we're in finals". So we finish up Soulcalibur, and then during the last 2 hours of the night, I stream some Tekken pools.

The next day, I have NOTHING to stream. I asked if they had any Tekken to stream, they said no. As I said, the schedule was genius. So I start running side events; which I have been doing at EVERY BigE event I have ever streamed for years. Sometimes its Virtua Fighter, sometimes its Eternal Champions, etc... This time its Windjammers. Business as usual; poor scheduling has me running out to find something, anything to stream. Windjammers was at least super hype. But seriously, if you're running tournaments for a decade, and they are still run like **** after all that time; then your problems will never be fixed.

So of course Namco is mad at BigE, because they are a sponsor and they wanted more stream time for Tekken. So what does BigE do? He throws me under the bus; rather than admit his own mistakes, he says I chose to stream Soulcalibur out of my "love for the game", and screwed Tekken. He passes this BS off to the Tekken community, and to Namco itself (potentially ruining my existing relationship with them). Did I chose Soulcalibur over Tekken? No, I chose FINALS over POOLS; it didn't matter what game it was, its more important to stream finals than a pool. If it was Marvel and Street Fighter, I would have made the same decision. Then of course, BigE claims that I stream "some random game" instead of Tekken, without permission. Even though I asked if we could run a Windjammers tournament because I was getting a lot of requests for it. He said fine, and the signup form was on the OFFICIAL REGISTRATION TABLE... without permission?
 
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FreedomFighter

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Thank you for explaining Jaxel but I still think you acted extremely unprofessionally.

1. You were given a job and you chose not to do it. You weren't promised you'd constantly be getting Brawl matches to stream but the ones you were getting, you were supposed to stream unless I'm mistaken. As for why you weren't getting them we can wait for Keitaro and RJ's explanations but I have a feeling it has to do with Brawl players, especially most of the better ones being entered into multiple events. So they very well could have been having matches at the same time and so they had no choice but to wait. Which brings me to my next point:

2. That Melee Doubles TO you are praising so much acted like a flat out scumbag to get you at least one of those matches. If you were watching the other events you'd realize she took for instance, Armada away from GRAND FINALS of Project Melee to play that doubles match on your stream. As a result the ENTIRE Clash Tournaments stream and the Project M tournament was delayed for about an hour with literally nothing going on because it had that one set left she couldn't wait for to finish (despite the Project Melee TO trying to explain this to her). So to you, she might seem more "efficient" but please consider what happened to other tournaments going on because of her "efficiency".

3. Ultimately I feel you could have handled the entire situation a lot better. If the breaks between Brawl doubles matches were too long in that time slot you could have filled in as you did, with Melee doubles or whatever else you wanted. But once the matches were ready to roll you should have switched back to Brawl. I don't see why this wasn't possible, especially when you were waiting for Marvel later anyway, that never ended up coming on. I mean for someone that claims to hate down time you had no qualms waiting 2 hours with nothing but hope instead of filling that slot with something you were already supposed to be streaming.

All in all, unless i'm mistaken and I apologize if I am, that Brawl video I posted with over 160K views dwarfs every other Smash video on your channel and probably most of your other videos period. So I would have thought you'd show a game that can get you that sort of views and exposure a bit more respect than screwing it entirely over because of perceived bad TOing or otherwise.

That said, Spooky is the man and chose to stream Brawl later even though he didn't have to and also tried to get the most requested matches on stream so kudos to him.
 

eshu125

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Thanks for explaining the whole situation jaxel. While I'm deeply upset and disappointed that brawl was barely streamed I understand the frustration and I don't find it hard to believe your story. Either way it'll be interesting to see what the brawl TO's have to say on the matter. Hopefully a lot of vods were saved regardless so that brawl doesn't get completely ****ed at apex.

P.S. the game's been out for SIX years and melee kids are still acting as childish as they were when melee came out. you guys need to chill
 

Mister Eric

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Jaxel - No worries. I'll prob come by today and thank you for all your hard work and effort. You do it for the love of the scene and nothing else. I have mad respect for that.

Yeah, it's pathetic how Melee people act. I love both games. Don't care for 64, but I'll never act like a 12 yr old in regards to it.
We are a community. A lot of Brawl players support Melee. We donated to have it on EVO. I don't expect anything like that in return because if you don't like something, you just don't like something. I would just love to have a little respect. But it seems that some people are completely incapable of that.
 

Gardex

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Simple. Because trying to get hype from Brawl is like trying to jerk off to an SPCA commercial.

You just don't.
Pretty much every set in the top 64 was insanely hype for Brawl. It matched Melee, and it's a shame you guys didn't get to see certain sets like Leon vs Shogun and Seagull vs Zinoto
 

Sedda

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Here's what happened...
I just wanna say Jaxel, great job at streaming 64. I hope they were able to keep a tight ship with their matches, but it was even better than watching them on team sp00ky lol. You uploaded stuff to youtube right away too. I hope you get to work with 64 again sometime soon.
 

Tugnus

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Pretty much every set in the top 64 was insanely hype for Brawl. It matched Melee, and it's a shame you guys didn't get to see certain sets like Leon vs Shogun and Seagull vs Zinoto
That's only because you guys can somehow get hype over 1 hit.
 

SoulPech

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It's clear you're upset about not having a brawl stream, but saying Jaxel acting unprofessionally and calling him a scumbag is uncalled for. He already explained this case and you're the ONLY one with the rage of the 1000 suns...don't blame Jaxel. Yes, he was scheduled to stream brawl, but schedules are always subject to change. If you want to blame someone, blame the TOs running the brawl tournament poorly. It's a TOs job to help matches get streamed (same goes for the actual streams) and for streams, they try to follow the schedule. If the schedule gets dragged behind, then there's no more schedule to follow up; if there's no communication, then the streamer has nothing to do and is stuck in a situation where he either needs follow a schedule that has dramatically changed, or take it upon himself and help stream other matches to get other parts of the tournament done. He even said he wanted to stream brawl, but couldn't. Cut the man some slack. If I was in Jaxel's position I'd do the same thing.


edit: I misread your post. I thought you called Jaxel a scumbag...my bad. Still, my repsonse is still legit.
 
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Gardex

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That's only because you guys can somehow get hype over 1 hit.
"My preference is better than yours"

Grow up, some people like the tense setting of these sets. Don't like it? Well ****, you still have Melee to watch. What the hell do people achieve with unnecessary degrading comments
 

Jaxel

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Thank you for explaining Jaxel
Ultimately, the issues have to do with scheduling. Honestly, the schedule for this year's APEX was asking for failure. There are something like THREE people who play both Melee and Brawl. Knowing this, the schedule I made for APEX 2013, did everything to run events at times where there would be as little overlap as possible. Pool play of doubles were to be run on Friday, with singles getting down on Saturday, and a little into Sunday. This way we would have both Melee and Brawl running at the same time, but NEVER have Melee and Melee, or Brawl and Brawl running at the same time. Running a doubles tournament is a nightmare enough with the work you have to put in to find so many players; running a doubles tournament while a singles tournament for the same game is running? Genius.

This year's schedule was erratic and nebulous with doubles for a game running at the same time as singles. Why they didn't use the schedule I made for last year, I don't know. Things were run almost perfectly last year; except for Melee and Brawl finals; which actually didn't follow my design. It could have easily been adjusted to make way for PM... But since I wasn't the main stream, I had no hand in this year's schedule. I did the schedule for last year's APEX because I was the main stream. As a main streamer, I have a production to maintain; and putting a production together requires a good schedule. I've been running tournaments for over a decade and I've learned how to schedule events to prevent these types of issues. People may not like my scheduling, because it forces them to show up on time; and I consider that an advantage. The giant clocks I made them get last year? Didn't see them.

Either way, after this year, and all the hatred, I doubt I will be asked back for next year... so pour your hate onto me. You guys can also blame me for Smash pools being brackets instead of round robin. Because I'm the guy who demanded that change as well. Also, Spooky being able to run Brawl without issues doesn't represent the problems. Spooky was the main stage, he has an army of people running around to gopher for him. He doesn't have to run around for seven hours looking for matches himself. You think they would let the main stage have 10-20 minutes between sets? Of course not...
 
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Juushichi

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I'm very sorry to hear that, Jaxel. I really respect your work and it's sad to see that you are constantly being thrown under the bus even though you've been doing an absolutely fantastic job. I like what you've been doing for the Break and in your dedication to APEX at this point.

Thank you very much for your hard and unfortunately thankless work so far.
 

Vkrm

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Last year at Apex Brawl got the most amount of viewers. Around 16K iirc at like 3AM in the morning. Melee only got up to around 12K and it was also due to people waiting for Brawl.

So there is no evidence to suggest Brawl would not get viewers. Quite the opposite actually proven by this tournament series itself.

Edit:

I'll add something to the OP to prove this point further.
Thought brawl peaked at 9k and melee at 12. Any way to check?
 

SoulPech

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The only person that was truly mad was the OP. We all know the circumstances Jaxel. I greatly appreciate your work and I do hope that you're invited next year. Not inviting you would be a mistake.
 

Jaxel

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The only person that was truly mad was the OP. We all know the circumstances Jaxel. I greatly appreciate your work and I do hope that you're invited next year. Not inviting you would be a mistake.
They are tearing me apart on reddit.
 
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