Who's Canonically the Strongest Character in Smash?

[DjinnandTonic]

Since lazers have apeared in almost every video game, sometimes moving very slowly, no.

Very much this.

Also, I've been playing some Street Fighter games, and Ryu certainly has a fluctuating power level. He's well-known as a master of Ki with the Hadouken, but he's also been infused Bison/Vega's Psycho Power during SFZero/Alpha 3 and later has also given into Akuma/Gouki's temptation to use the Satsui no Hadou / "Dark Hadou" which apparently can turn him into a Demon.

Crazy stuff, plus if you allow any of his feats from the VS games (might qualify under the composite rules?) he's at least in the power range of the Fire Emblem characters/Ness/Mewtwo. (Doubt he's up to Samus/Sonic/Shulk/Gods tier, but high Heavy is notable!)

 

[monzer]

If reacting to lasers is s reaction feat, then all of these characters have light speed reaction time.

Kirby
Meta Knight
King Dedede
Samus
Zero Suit Samus
Every Pokemon
Shulk
Pit
Dark Pit
Sonic
Ness
Lukas
Fox
Falco
Mega Man
All of the Mario characters

Most of the characters are already pretty high, so it wouldn't make that much of a difference.

And actually, I think the fire emblem characters should be top tier, Robin and Lucinas max stats are higher than gods.

Plus counter would make them be a hard counter to both mewtwo and sonic.

 

[Munomario777]

If reacting to lasers is s reaction feat, then all of these characters have light speed reaction time.

Kirby
Meta Knight
King Dedede
Samus
Zero Suit Samus
Every Pokemon
Shulk
Pit
Dark Pit
Sonic
Ness
Lukas
Fox
Falco
Mega Man
All of the Mario characters

Mhm.

Most of the characters are already pretty high, so it wouldn't make that much of a difference.

I'd say it's more because reaction time is irrelevant if you're not swift enough to actually get out of the way.

And actually, I think the fire emblem characters should be top tier, Robin and Lucinas max stats are higher than gods.

Which means nothing really.

Plus counter would make them be a hard counter to both mewtwo and sonic.

How would they counter Mewtwo? He usually attacks from a distance.

I've gone over Sonic before, but I'll do it again, because why not.

• Miracle cannot activate against this amount of force unless by means of ungrounded extrapolation, so Counter cannot activate.
• If Miracle could actually activate, Counter would also rely on ungrounded extrapolation.
• If Counter could actually activate, it only hits adjacent opponents; with his speed, Sonic will be at the other end of the arena in under a second.
• If Sonic was in range of Counter, he can survive that force anyway; he crashes into walls all the time at these speeds without a scratch.
• If we ignored that for whatever reason, Super Sonic only loses about ten Rings from a deity attack. This will, at a maximum, drain all of Sonic's Rings (and I somewhat doubt that). The FE character is now left at 1 HP (using Awakening's version), so Miracle will not activate when Sonic once again rams into them at top speed.

You will have to disprove a all five of these points in order for the Fire Emblem character to win.

 

[Crystanium]

Kirby
Meta Knight
King Dedede

Do you have any evidence for this?

Samus
Zero Suit Samus

At best, Samus has precognition, so she'll dodge just before lasers are fired. This gives the illusion that she has nanosecond reaction time. Of course, I wouldn't be surprised if Samus can react to light, considering she's able to dodge energy weapons that suggest light speed.

Every Pokemon

Do you have any evidence for his?

Shulk

Do you have any evidence for this?

Pit
Dark Pit

Not quite nanosecond reaction time, but more like 10 microseconds. I'm kind of iffy on this, but I'll be sure to be on the look out.

Sonic

Some would say Sonic does indeed have nanosecond reaction time because he dodges lasers in an animation in Sonic CD.

Ness
Lukas

Do you have evidence for this?

Fox
Falco

Do you have evidence of this?

Mega Man

It's possible, but do you have evidence for this?

All of the Mario characters

Do you have evidence for this?

 

[DjinnandTonic]

I think what he's saying is that those games have those characters fighting against enemies that use lasers? And conceivably if the main characters can dodge those lasers (and 90% of the time gameplay mandates that dodging/evading is possible) then they have lightspeed reactions. All if we're accepting the assumption that game lasers are equivalent to real-life lasers in terms of speed.

I think there's a lot of potential interpretations here. One is that yeah sure, all of them have light speed reactions. I think more likely it's that whatever is firing the laser just has bad aim or telegraphs their attacks. The other explanation is that video game lasers just -aren't- equivalent to real life laser speed and travel slower while retaining other properties of lasers.

I'm personally of the opinion that if a PC is seen facing laser speed attacks in-game and the attack doesn't connect, it's more likely the mistake of the attacker than it is the reaction of the PC. Sure, in the actual gameplay, the player might be hitting the dodge button after the laser is fired and before it connects, but the plot explanation is probably more along the lines of "the attacker is a bad shot" or if we're being generous "the PC can read the laser's path based on the trajectory of the weapon it's fired from a la Batman". This is -definitely- the view I'd take for the RPG characters who face light-based attacks, while the platformer characters have a stronger argument for possibly having just -really good reflexes- or that video game lasers are just -slow-.

 

[monzer]

Which means nothing really.

How is surpassing a god mean nothing?

How would they counter Mewtwo? He usually attacks from a distance.

I'm pretty sure it takes effect from a distance too.

Miracle cannot activate against this amount of force unless by means of ungrounded extrapolation, so Counter cannot activate.

It's not an extrapolation, miracle takes effect your matter what. Miracle triggers against gods of destruction, plus, the description of the skill doesn't list any limitations. If your going to make that arguement, first prove why miracle wouldn't take effect.

If Miracle could actually activate, Counter would also rely on ungrounded extrapolation.

You do get that extrapolations are usually accurate, right? The skill makes the attacker take the same damage that he/she/it deals out. Again, why wouldn't counter take effect.

If Counter could actually activate, it only hits adjacent opponents; with his speed, Sonic will be at the other end of the arena in under a second.

Sonic will feel the force of his own attack The instant he attacks Robin or Lucina.

If Sonic was in range of Counter, he can survive that force anyway; he crashes into walls all the time at these speeds without a scratch.

But the walls broke so Sonic didn't feel the full force of his own attacks. Plus after Sonic takes the damage he will lose all of his momentum and then the fire emblem character would just keep on attacking Sonic until he is knocked out because when Sonic is knocked out it take a few seconds for him to get up again.

If we ignored that for whatever reason, Super Sonic only loses about ten Rings from a deity attack. This will, at a maximum, drain all of Sonic's Rings (and I somewhat doubt that). The FE character is now left at 1 HP (using Awakening's version), so Miracle will not activate when Sonic once again rams into them at top speed.

He wouldn't be at top speed, Sonic goes back to his starting speed when he is hit.

@Dryn
I was using that as an example of why dodging lasers shouldn't be used as a reaction feat because none of the characters I mentioned would have that reaction time if it wasn't for those lasers.

Are there any character ability sheets or charts that are yet to be made?

 

[Munomario777]

How is surpassing a god mean nothing?

Because a character "being a god" means nothing without feats to support it.

I'm pretty sure it takes effect from a distance too.

"The effects of Counter will only go off against a non-fatal attack on the user and will only reflect back when the attacker is next to the user." - Fire Emblem Wiki

It's not an extrapolation, miracle takes effect your matter what.

As proven by?

Miracle triggers against gods of destruction,

What amount of force has it blocked?

plus, the description of the skill doesn't list any limitations.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_ignorance

If your going to make that arguement, first prove why miracle wouldn't take effect.

First, you prove why it would.

You do get that extrapolations are usually accurate, right?

Ungrounded ones?

The skill makes the attacker take the same damage that he/she/it deals out.

And it has not been demonstrated above a certain amount of force.

Again, why wouldn't counter take effect.

Because it hasn't been shown to work on this level of attacks.

Sonic will feel the force of his own attack The instant he attacks Robin or Lucina.

How fast is the in-game animation (and could you please provide a video)?

But the walls broke so Sonic didn't feel the full force of his own attacks.

I mean crashing into solid walls, not destructible ones.

Plus after Sonic takes the damage he will lose all of his momentum and then the fire emblem character would just keep on attacking Sonic until he is knocked out because when Sonic is knocked out it take a few seconds for him to get up again.

Sonic might stop, but he wouldn't get knocked back unless he was bouncy or something from my understanding of physics. The forces are equal, so they cancel each other out.

Also, Sonic lands on his feet even if he does get knocked back a bit.

He wouldn't be at top speed, Sonic goes back to his starting speed when he is hit.

And can accelerate to top speeds instantly; see the boost.

 

[monzer]

Because a character "being a god" means nothing without feats to support it.

He had the power to destroy the world.

"The effects of Counter will only go off against a non-fatal attack on the user and will only reflect back when the attacker is next to the user." - Fire Emblem Wiki

oh

As proven by?

Taking hits from a god who could, and almost destroyed the world

What amount of force has it blocked?

If you hack, you can deal 999 damage and it will still be blocked by miracle, Even Grima can't deal that much damage.

Ungrounded ones?

If it was ungrounded, there would be no equation, chart or graph to extrapolate from.

The damage equation for the amount of health left over by using miracle is this:
x=damage dealt
y=damage left
0x=y

The damage equation for counter is this:
x=damage dealt
y=damage taken
x=y

These are very, very simple equations. I cant believe I even need to explain this to you..

Because it hasn't been shown to work on this level of attacks.

Grima.

How fast is the in-game animation (and could you please provide a video)?

I mean crashing into solid walls, not destructible ones.

A lot of video game characters do that. Mario punches a wall and takes no damage, so does that mean that Mario takes no damage from an attack with that force.

Sonic might stop, but he wouldn't get knocked back unless he was bouncy or something from my understanding of physics. The forces are equal, so they cancel each other out.

Sonic always gets knocked back when he takes damage.

Also, Sonic lands on his feet even if he does get knocked back a bit.
And can accelerate to top speeds instantly; see the boost

He will still be constantly hit by Robin or Lucina, he wouldn't be able to escape.

 

[Munomario777]

He had the power to destroy the world.

When did he?

Taking hits from a god who could, and almost destroyed the world

With the same attacks that hit the character in question?

If you hack,

Hacked games aren't canon.

you can deal 999 damage and it will still be blocked by miracle, Even Grima can't deal that much damage.

What amount of force does that amount to?

If it was ungrounded, there would be no equation, chart or graph to extrapolate from.

Right, and yours is. Nothing suggests that Counter or Miracle can go beyond what they demonstrate in-game.

The damage equation for the amount of health left over by using miracle is this:
x=damage dealt
y=damage left
0x=y

The damage equation for counter is this:
x=damage dealt
y=damage taken
x=y

These are very, very simple equations. I cant believe I even need to explain this to you..

That is how it works in the games, yes. However, there is no proof that these hold true beyond what's seen in-game.

Grima.

What about him?

The second hit seems a bit slow. The first time that damage is countered does have the attacker take damage after the one being attacked (the one that used counter).

A lot of video game characters do that. Mario punches a wall and takes no damage, so does that mean that Mario takes no damage from an attack with that force.

It would appear so; at least, with his fists.

Sonic always gets knocked back when he takes damage.

And he won't take damage here.

He will still be constantly hit by Robin or Lucina, he wouldn't be able to escape.

Except, you know, he moves far too fast for them to think of hitting him.

 

[monzer]

When did he?

He was going to, but he was stopped.

With the same attacks that hit the character in question?

I'm not sure, but I would say so.

Hacked games aren't canon.

It still shows miracle resists it

What amount of force does that amount to?

More than enough to destroy a planet.

Right, and yours is. Nothing suggests that Counter or Miracle can go beyond what they demonstrate in-game.
That is how it works in the games, yes. However, there is no proof that these hold true beyond what's seen in-game.

Why, I doubt an attack from Sonic would even be enough to kill them in the first place because of the whole, surviving hits from gods that can destroy planets thing.

What about him?

Grima had the power to destroy the world and the fire emblem characters can kill him.

The second hit seems a bit slow. The first time that damage is countered does have the attacker take damage after the one being attacked (the one that used counter).

That was because it delays when someone lands a critical hit. Sonic can't critical hits so this doesn't apply to him.

It would appear so; at least, with his fists.

By that logic every single video game character from a game that has walls is invincible.

Except, you know, he moves far too fast for them to think of hitting him.

He would first have to power up to full speed, something he can't do when he is being hit.

Can you provide a video of Sonic powering up to full speed. In most games it take time for him to do this.

Really you just need to accept that Sonic can't, an isn't going to win any fight.

 

[Munomario777]

He was going to, but he was stopped.

Then there is no proof.

I'm not sure, but I would say so.

On what grounds?

It still shows miracle resists it

...through non-canon hacking.

More than enough to destroy a planet.

Proof?

Why, I doubt an attack from Sonic would even be enough to kill them in the first place because of the whole, surviving hits from gods that can destroy planets thing.

...which I'm still awaiting proof for.

Grima had the power to destroy the world and the fire emblem characters can kill him.

That's irrelevant to durability.

That was because it delays when someone lands a critical hit. Sonic can't critical hits so this doesn't apply to him.

I'll use the first hit, then. By pausing the video, we can see that the damage indicator on the right fades away sooner than the one on the left:

Spoiler: Big image :)

A frame of a video on YouTube is 1/30 of a second. Some videos are in 60fps, but a quick look at the quality shows us that this one is not. Anyway, this obviously takes more than a frame, but I'll work with one frame for now. So, this takes 1/30 of a second, or .03333..... (infinite threes) seconds. I calculated earlier that it takes less than .01 seconds for Sonic to travel ten meters. So Sonic will be at least ten meters away before counter activates, and thus out of range.

By that logic every single video game character from a game that has walls is invincible.

I fail to see how punching a wall and not being injured (which humans can do IRL) makes you invincible.

He would first have to power up to full speed, something he can't do when he is being hit.

He can boost after hitting a wall.

Can you provide a video of Sonic powering up to full speed. In most games it take time for him to do this.

Sure.

Really you just need to accept that Sonic can't, an isn't going to win any fight.

I'll accept it when it's proven.

 

[monzer]

Then there is no proof.

If it's stated in the game he has the power to do it, he has the power to do it.

On what grounds?

Why wouldn't Grima use the full force of his attacks

...through non-canon hacking.

Still,



I'll use the first hit, then. By pausing the video, we can see that the damage indicator on the right fades away sooner than the one on the left:
A frame of a video on YouTube is 1/30 of a second. Some videos are in 60fps, but a quick look at the quality shows us that this one is not. Anyway, this obviously takes more than a frame, but I'll work with one frame for now. So, this takes 1/30 of a second, or .03333..... (infinite threes) seconds. I calculated earlier that it takes less than .01 seconds for Sonic to travel ten meters. So Sonic will be at least ten meters away before counter activates, and thus out of range.

That's due to the game processing slowly. Either way he would still take the damage, you have to be in that range when you attack, not after the attack.

I fail to see how punching a wall and not being injured (which humans can do IRL) makes you invincible.

Because if they punch a wall and take no damage, according to you that means they can take the force of their own attacks. While this is true IRL, laws of physics don't apply in video games. You can sit there all day and have Mario punch that wall, and will take no damage, so according to you that means he is invincible.

He can boost after hitting a wall.

But not after getting hit by an attack.

Sure.

In that video Sonic clearly wasn't traveling at full speed, which is 10 times faster than the speed of light if I remember correctly. If he was traveling at full speed, he would have went all the way around the world about 80 times in that level.

 

[Munomario777]

If it's stated in the game he has the power to do it, he has the power to do it.

When is it stated?

Why wouldn't Grima use the full force of his attacks

For game balance?

Still,

Still what?

That's due to the game processing slowly.

When does it state that counter is instantaneous?

Either way he would still take the damage, you have to be in that range when you attack, not after the attack.

Counter can only hit nearby targets. There's nothing about the opponent having to be close only when they strike, is there?

Because if they punch a wall and take no damage, according to you that means they can take the force of their own attacks. While this is true IRL, laws of physics don't apply in video games. You can sit there all day and have Mario punch that wall, and will take no damage, so according to you that means he is invincible.

He's not invincible; attacks stronger than his punches can indeed kill him.

But not after getting hit by an attack.

The wall and counter would have the same force.

In that video Sonic clearly wasn't traveling at full speed, which is 10 times faster than the speed of light if I remember correctly. If he was traveling at full speed, he would have went all the way around the world about 80 times in that level.

The boost allows Sonic to go faster than he can without the boost; it increases his speed. Sonic isn't seen travelling at his top speed here (or rather, the speed isn't shown accurately) because of gameplay reasons; humans cannot process those sorts of speeds well enough to complete a level. Plus, hardware can't exactly portray that.

 

[Crystanium]

I think what he's saying is that those games have those characters fighting against enemies that use lasers? And conceivably if the main characters can dodge those lasers (and 90% of the time gameplay mandates that dodging/evading is possible) then they have lightspeed reactions. All if we're accepting the assumption that game lasers are equivalent to real-life lasers in terms of speed.

I think there's a lot of potential interpretations here. One is that yeah sure, all of them have light speed reactions. I think more likely it's that whatever is firing the laser just has bad aim or telegraphs their attacks. The other explanation is that video game lasers just -aren't- equivalent to real life laser speed and travel slower while retaining other properties of lasers.

I'm personally of the opinion that if a PC is seen facing laser speed attacks in-game and the attack doesn't connect, it's more likely the mistake of the attacker than it is the reaction of the PC. Sure, in the actual gameplay, the player might be hitting the dodge button after the laser is fired and before it connects, but the plot explanation is probably more along the lines of "the attacker is a bad shot" or if we're being generous "the PC can read the laser's path based on the trajectory of the weapon it's fired from a la Batman". This is -definitely- the view I'd take for the RPG characters who face light-based attacks, while the platformer characters have a stronger argument for possibly having just -really good reflexes- or that video game lasers are just -slow-.

I'd agree if lasers are a common thing the protagonist has to dodge, then said character should at least have nanosecond reaction time, depending on the distance between the protagonist and the laser. The issue is a question of outliers, not lasers. No one every has a problem with saying a protagonist can dodge bullets when we see this often. I don't understand why bullets are acceptable and lasers are not. If I was a developer of a video game and said, "This is a laser beam", then that is what I intended. For anyone to say, "It's not a laser because it's visible and it's traveling slow" would mean they're denying what I intended for the laser to be. If anyone says, "This is not a laser because it's moving slow", then I can say, "It's not a bullet because it's moving slow." It would be a bullet, but not in the usual understanding, meaning it doesn't mean it travels supersonic.

 

[Munomario777]

I treat things as moving at the speeds shown unless stated otherwise. Video game physics differ from real world physics, so laser beams could very well move more slowly than they do in real life. I would also have this mentality for a bullet (as I do for the cannonballs in Mario).

 

[monzer]

When is it stated?

I can't find a video or a picture of it being stated, but I know it was stated somewhere in the last few levels.

For game balance?

Why would a villain care about game balance? Grima used the full force of his attacks.

Still what?

It still shows miracle will still withstand that much force. Miracle is guaranteed to trigger your matter how much force is required, thats how the skill works. You can't argue otherwise without being biased.

When does it state that counter is instantaneous?

The enemies take the damage as soon as the game can process it.

Counter can only hit nearby targets. There's nothing about the opponent having to be close only when they strike, is there?

It reflects the damage back instantly.

He's not invincible; attacks stronger than his punches can indeed kill him.

I know that, that's why your attacking walls logic is invalid.

The wall and counter would have the same force.

Again, laws of physics don't apply in video games.

The boost allows Sonic to go faster than he can without the boost; it increases his speed. Sonic isn't seen travelling at his top speed here (or rather, the speed isn't shown accurately) because of gameplay reasons; humans cannot process those sorts of speeds well enough to complete a level. Plus, hardware can't exactly portray that.

Exactly, Sonic didn't even break the sound barrier in this. Provide a video of Sonic reaching his full speed, as in 10 times faster than light. If he can't reach that speed as quickly than his attacks will be much much weaker and he won't even be able to deal with characters like Ness.

Iv'e noticed a lot of people have made character info sheets on this board.Are there any ones that haven't been made yet.

 

[Munomario777]

I can't find a video or a picture of it being stated, but I know it was stated somewhere in the last few levels.

Well, I'm afraid that you have no proof, then.

Why would a villain care about game balance?

The game designers do.

Grima used the full force of his attacks.

This has yet to be proven.

It still shows miracle will still withstand that much force.

...through non-canon hacking.

Miracle is guaranteed to trigger your matter how much force is required, thats how the skill works. You can't argue otherwise without being biased.

When is it stated that Miracle's capabilities exceed those found in the games?

The enemies take the damage as soon as the game can process it.

Prove that it's a processing limitation

It reflects the damage back instantly.

Except it doesn't.

I know that, that's why your attacking walls logic is invalid.

How so?

Again, laws of physics don't apply in video games.

We assume that they do, unless demonstrated otherwise.

Exactly, Sonic didn't even break the sound barrier in this.

Actually, he creates a sonic boom.

Provide a video of Sonic reaching his full speed, as in 10 times faster than light. If he can't reach that speed as quickly than his attacks will be much much weaker and he won't even be able to deal with characters like Ness.

You do realize that the whole "Sonic is FTL" argument stems from the instantly accelerating boost, right?

Anyway. In the Sonic Adventure DX manual, Sonic is stated to be "hypersonic", which is the speed I'm working with. This was before the boost was introduced. The boost represents Sonic's top speed, as shown by the "speed" bar in Unleashed. The top speed is hypersonic speed, and Sonic accelerates instantly to top speed via the boost. So yes, Sonic can accelerate to top speed instantly.

 

[monzer]

Well, I'm afraid that you have no proof, then.

Ill try to find some proof.

The game designers do.

It is balanced anyway. The Fire Emblem characters would take the hit.

This has yet to be proven.

Why wouldn't he?

When is it stated that Miracle's capabilities exceed those found in the games?

The description of the move is this:

Allows the unit to survive with 1 HP when attacked with a fatal strike.

If the move would normally kill them, they will hang on with one health.

Prove that it's a processing limitation

Because it happens the fastest it could possibly happen without breaking the game.

Except it doesn't.

It's a game limitation, either way Sonic will still feel the force as long as he attacks by ramming into him, which is his only attack.

How so?

Because by that logic any character in a game that has walls is invincible.

We assume that they do, unless demonstrated otherwise.

And in this case it is demonstrated otherwise with characters taking no damage when they attack walls, which should reflect back the damage of their own strength..

You do realize that the whole "Sonic is FTL" argument stems from the instantly accelerating boost, right?
Anyway. In the Sonic Adventure DX manual, Sonic is stated to be "hypersonic", which is the speed I'm working with. This was before the boost was introduced. The boost represents Sonic's top speed, as shown by the "speed" bar in Unleashed. The top speed is hypersonic speed, and Sonic accelerates instantly to top speed via the boost. So yes, Sonic can accelerate to top speed instantly.

Oh yeah I forgot about the boost.

Really when it comes down to it you're never going to change you're mind so as Silver would say,
"it's no use"

 

[Munomario777]

Ill try to find some proof.

M'kay.

It is balanced anyway. The Fire Emblem characters would take the hit.

And yet, they can be killed by human soldiers.

Why wouldn't he?

Because of game balance. Also, you have yet to prove that he's even capable of destroying planets.

The description of the move is this:

Allows the unit to survive with 1 HP when attacked with a fatal strike.

If the move would normally kill them, they will hang on with one health.

I don't see anything about Miracle surpassing what it's been shown to do in game.

Because it happens the fastest it could possibly happen without breaking the game.

Prove this.

It's a game limitation,

This has yet to be proven.

either way Sonic will still feel the force as long as he attacks by ramming into him,

And he rams into robots all the time at these speeds without a scratch.

which is his only attack.

Really? You think ramming into things is Sonic's only attack? That's funny. He can become a razor-sharp buzzsaw (essentially), stomp on enemies, deliver powerful kicks, create tornadoes, use a sword effectively, become a laser, drill, black hole, and other crazy transformations, and attack by simply coming into contact with things as Super Sonic.

Because by that logic any character in a game that has walls is invincible.

By that logic, anyone who's kicked a wall and lived is invincible.

And in this case it is demonstrated otherwise with characters taking no damage when they attack walls, which should reflect back the damage of their own strength..

People can attack walls in real life and not get injured.

Oh yeah I forgot about the boost.

It was in the video I showed you.

Really when it comes down to it you're never going to change you're mind so all of this is no use.

If you'd like to stop debating, I'd be willing to agree to disagree on this.

 

[monzer]

If you'd like to stop debating, I'd be willing to agree to disagree on this

Yeah we might as well. This whole thread has really came to a stalemate since no it's coming down to opinion and interpreting whether something is a game mechanic, and questions that really have no answers.

As an extension to the original question. What franchise is the most powerful one, only using the characters that are in smash.
I would say either the Kirby franchise or the Kid Icarus franchise since they each have three characters in top tier.

As for the most powerful franchise counting non smash franchises and characters, the answer would be SouthPark: The Stick of Truth because 4 out of the 5 main characters are immortal or have omnipotent.

 

[Crystanium]

I treat things as moving at the speeds shown unless stated otherwise. Video game physics differ from real world physics, so laser beams could very well move more slowly than they do in real life. I would also have this mentality for a bullet (as I do for the cannonballs in Mario).

Then stop using our physics in media.

 

[Munomario777]

Yeah we might as well. This whole thread has really came to a stalemate since no it's coming down to opinion and interpreting whether something is a game mechanic, and questions that really have no answers.

M'kay.

As an extension to the original question. What franchise is the most powerful one, only using the characters that are in smash.
I would say either the Kirby franchise or the Kid Icarus franchise since they each have three characters in top tier.

Number of characters =/= collective strength of characters. I'd say the Sonic franchise, due to how OP Sonic is.

Then stop using our physics in media.

How are we supposed to find answers with holes in the laws of physics?

 

[DjinnandTonic]

Would DK, Wario, and Yoshi all count as from the Mario series as well? Because that is a serious numbers advantage even for Sonic/Samus/Shulk/KIU Trio

 

[Munomario777]

Would DK, Wario, and Yoshi all count as from the Mario series as well? Because that is a serious numbers advantage even for Sonic/Samus/Shulk/KIU Trio

They come from separate "universes" in Smash, so I'd say no.

 

[Crystanium]

How are we supposed to find answers with holes in the laws of physics?

We can't.

Would DK, Wario, and Yoshi all count as from the Mario series as well? Because that is a serious numbers advantage even for Sonic/Samus/Shulk/KIU Trio

While Munomario777 says no, I say yes. Donkey Kong and Mario have a long history. Yoshi first appeared in Super Mario World, and Wario first appeared in Super Mario Land 2: Six Golden Coins. (I had that game for the Game Boy. I may still have it somewhere.) Considering Mario shares the same universe with DK, Yoshi, and Wario, they would count as part of the Super Mario Bros. series. They have their own games as well, but they'd all share the same universe.

I'd like to throw out a bit more information about Pit. In Kid Icarus, Pit is able to increase his arrow strength. These are the bronze arrow, silver, golden, and sacred arrows. Along with the sacred arrows Pit can acquire the sacred bow. Of course, his final weapon is the arrow of light, which is described as "like a laser".

 

[Munomario777]

We can't.

Thus, we fill in the "gaps" with real world science, physics, etc.

While Munomario777 says no, I say yes. Donkey Kong and Mario have a long history. Yoshi first appeared in Super Mario World, and Wario first appeared in Super Mario Land 2: Six Golden Coins. (I had that game for the Game Boy. I may still have it somewhere.) Considering Mario shares the same universe with DK, Yoshi, and Wario, they would count as part of the Super Mario Bros. series. They have their own games as well, but they'd all share the same universe.

By universe, I meant series in Smash. They all exist in the same universe (as in, a world), but they're considered different universes in Smash (as in, a series). So if we're doing this whole "strongest series" thing, I suggest we go by what Smash considers a series, going by the icons.

 

[Crystanium]

Thus, we fill in the "gaps" with real world science, physics, etc

We can't if video game physics is different from ours.

By universe, I meant series in Smash. They all exist in the same universe (as in, a world), but they're considered different universes in Smash (as in, a series). So if we're doing this whole "strongest series" thing, I suggest we go by what Smash considers a series, going by the icons.

I'd rather go by what's canonical, which is the whole point of this thread.

 

[Deleted member]

Ganondorf. He can only be hurt by very specific weapons (sometimes the Master Sword isn't even enough), and if he is defeated, he just comes back later, more power-hungry than ever.

He's so invincible that even his weakness isn't enough to get rid of him for good.

 

[monzer]

I'd rather go by what's canonical, which is the whole point of this thread.

Either way I doubt it would matter. 3 top tier characters> 9 mid/high tier charcters

Ganondorf. He can only be hurt by very specific weapons (sometimes the Master Sword isn't even enough), and if he is defeated, he just comes back later, more power-hungry than ever.

He's so invincible that even his weakness isn't enough to get rid of him for good.

We've already ruled that any weapon blessed by a god or any weapon that belonged to a god would be able to damage Ganondorf.

The king of disrespect himself, GANONDORF!

See above

 

[Zeriora]

The king of disrespect himself, GANONDORF!

 

[Munomario777]

We can't if video game physics is different from ours.

Video game physics and real life physics share many attributes. Gravity pulls things down. The laws of inertia are also common (unless you're playing Sonic 4... Sonic fans should get that ), and other basics often apply in games. I think we can fill in the holes with real world physics; otherwise, the laws of physics have holes in them, so we can't debate on many things.

I'd rather go by what's canonical, which is the whole point of this thread.

Well, comparing different series (serieses? seriesi?) isn't exactly the point of the thread either. If we're comparing series with characters in Smash, then according to Smash, DK doesn't belong to the Mario franchise; he has his own series shared with Diddy.

 

[monzer]

I'd rather go by what's canonical, which is the whole point of this thread.

Canonically, Donkey Kong has appeared in more Donkey Kong games than Mario games. Yoshi basically has his own franchise now.

 

[Crystanium]

Ganondorf. He can only be hurt by very specific weapons (sometimes the Master Sword isn't even enough), and if he is defeated, he just comes back later, more power-hungry than ever.

He's so invincible that even his weakness isn't enough to get rid of him for good.

Ganondorf can be defeated by Samus with the use of the light beam, and if you think the light beam won't kill Ganondorf, she could send him into a dark dimension using the darkburst once he's stunned by the light beam. Pit can also defeat Ganondorf, being an angel himself and acquiring the sacred bow and sacred arrows from 神様, or literally, "Lord God". While Ganondorf is referred to as a god by Zant, the difference between him and 神様 is he's an actual god. If the connection between him and Dyntos is true, then not only has he created the sacred bow and arrow, he's created light arrows, which was used to defeat Medusa, the goddess of darkness. Then there's Link and possibly Sonic and Shulk. Considering it's possible that at least five can defeat Ganondorf, this bumps Ganondorf down the tier list just a bit.

Video game physics and real life physics share many attributes. Gravity pulls things down. The laws of inertia are also common (unless you're playing Sonic 4... Sonic fans should get that ), and other basics often apply in games. I think we can fill in the holes with real world physics; otherwise, the laws of physics have holes in them, so we can't debate on many things.

Just because they share similarities, doesn't mean they're the same. I have no problem with using physics, even if I know that locations like Popstar, Hyrule, the Mushroom Kingdom, Angel Land, are different places which likely do not share the same gravity. Even the planets in Metroid require they be Earth-like or not. I'm not sure what "holes" you're talking about with regard to our physics, but even with our physics we work with what's constant.

Well, comparing different series (serieses? seriesi?) isn't exactly the point of the thread either. If we're comparing series with characters in Smash, then according to Smash, DK doesn't belong to the Mario franchise; he has his own series shared with Diddy.

That's because DK has his own video games. They still share the same universe. If you want to split series' apart, that's fine, but don't say they're not from the same universe when we've actually seen them interact with one another. And now, these were cameos.

 

[Munomario777]

Just because they share similarities, doesn't mean they're the same. I have no problem with using physics, even if I know that locations like Popstar, Hyrule, the Mushroom Kingdom, Angel Land, are different places which likely do not share the same gravity. Even the planets in Metroid require they be Earth-like or not. I'm not sure what "holes" you're talking about with regard to our physics, but even with our physics we work with what's constant.

I mean that fictional universes' physics have "holes"; that is, areas of physics that are undefined, not clarified, or flat out not mentioned. For instance, Super Mario never tackles the laws of thermodynamics (at least, not that I'm aware), so we use the real world laws of thermodynamics as a replacement.

That's because DK has his own video games. They still share the same universe. If you want to split series' apart, that's fine, but don't say they're not from the same universe when we've actually seen them interact with one another. And now, these were cameos.

By universe, I didn't mean an actual universe, or a world that characters inhabit together. I meant what's considered a series by Smash (hence the SmashWiki link in my post). Mario and DK share a universe, but not a series (which I was referring to as a universe). My apologies if I caused any confusion.

 

[Crystanium]

I mean that fictional universes' physics have "holes"; that is, areas of physics that are undefined, not clarified, or flat out not mentioned. For instance, Super Mario never tackles the laws of thermodynamics (at least, not that I'm aware), so we use the real world laws of thermodynamics as a replacement.

We cannot make something canon if we don't know if it functions that way.

By universe, I didn't mean an actual universe, or a world that characters inhabit together. I meant what's considered a series by Smash (hence the SmashWiki link in my post). Mario and DK share a universe, but not a series (which I was referring to as a universe). My apologies if I caused any confusion.

It's OK.

 

[Munomario777]

We cannot make something canon if we don't know if it functions that way.

It's not canon; it's not from an actual canon source. However, it's a "necessary evil" if we want to have as many in-depth discussions as we do here.

If you subscribe to the theory that video game worlds are connected, by the way (which I do), then games are connected to the real world, so it's not too much of a stretch IMO.

 

[monzer]

It's not canon; it's not from an actual canon source. However, it's a "necessary evil" if we want to have as many in-depth discussions as we do here.

If you subscribe to the theory that video game worlds are connected, by the way (which I do), then games are connected to the real world, so it's not too much of a stretch IMO.

The discussion has really reached the point where it just comes down to people's opinions on how to interpret certain phrases and whether or not somethings canon.

Do alternate skins count as differnt characters or the same character, because if they do then all of the koopalings would be on the Mario team.

 

[Crystanium]

It's not canon; it's not from an actual canon source. However, it's a "necessary evil" if we want to have as many in-depth discussions as we do here.

If you subscribe to the theory that video game worlds are connected, by the way (which I do), then games are connected to the real world, so it's not too much of a stretch IMO.

Or we could just simplify everything so physics isn't necessary.

 

[Munomario777]

Or we could just simplify everything so physics isn't necessary.

How would you suggest we do that?

 

[Crystanium]

How would you suggest we do that?

What we see is what we get. If Richter Belmont from Castlevania: Symphony of the Night used divine storm to kill Dracula, we could just assume the same would work against Ganondorf. Not much thought would be put into this because we'd be simply working with what we see.