Who's Canonically the Strongest Character in Smash?

[InfinityAlex]

Contrary to popular belief, Sonic can swim by using his Spin Jump repeatedly in water, but he still can't breathe while submerged, needing to come up for air eventually (unless using certain power-ups listed below).​

iirc, this only ever happened in Colours. I'm pretty sure Generations cut that mechanic.

 

[Munomario777]

What game does she have Lumas in where they're used in battle?

She doesn't. The character in Smash is Rosalina and the Lumas, so that's what we're working with here.

Sonic can only travel at the speed of light for a brief time. The gunship can travel 7.2 times faster than the speed of light. Sorry.

And how exactly will that help in a combat situation taking place in a ten-miles-cubed arena?

That incarnation has a vulnerable point that even the jaws of a wolf can inflict damage upon.

Do you have footage of this?

No other weapon says they vaporize. The death animation is the same for reasons given in my aforementioned post. Deal with that or all of Kirby's attacks vaporize.

It's an attribute of the attacks, apparently. Here: Lore > your opinion.

This isn't really going anywhere, so I suggest we put it up to a vote.

I already said why.

What exactly makes the bosses more durable to vaporization than a normal enemy?

Also, Crash wouldn't be producing that amount of energy anyways. Why? That's the amount required to vaporize a human, not a Kirby enemy. In fact, we know that it can't vaporize a human; even small bosses are left intact! Dryn, about how much TNT force would that equate to?

iirc, this only ever happened in Colours. I'm pretty sure Generations cut that mechanic.

Yes, but we're taking attributes from multiple games and combining them.

 

[Kirby Dragons]

You're the one who brought up the difference between force fields and Super Sonic etc.

Because forcefields and Super Sonic have pretty much nothing in common, and you were trying to compare them.

Why does it matter if it's a force field or not? Both protect the user from most attacks.

"A bullet attacks people. A rock attacks people. A bullet kills people. Therefore, a rock kills people."
Yeah, no. Nice try.

If we were going to compare Super Forms to anything in Pokemon, it would have to be the Mega Evolutions, definitely not Protect.
Super Forms/Mega Evolutions

• Both are transformations.
• Both give stat boosts to their users.
• Both require a specific kind of stone to activate.

Super Forms/Protect

• Both are capable of blocking attacks.

Eight-inch sword =/= significantly larger spinning blue buzzsaw hedgehog.

The sword is more like 10 or 11 inches, seeing as it was curved in the comparison. Also, Invisibility Stone/Stone/Invincibility Candy works just fine.

What has the Spark ability been shown to resist? I doubt it has been shown to block, say, one of Samus's Super Missiles. Also, it can be bypassed by spikes.

Testing it in Kirby: Squeak Squad, it can destroy a fireball larger than Kirby that can cover the whole ground.

But not escaping the Clown Car.

Then Kirby smashes through the ground using Ultra Sword.

It's a 2D platformer. You can target whatever you want.

See above.

Okay, your point?

You're the one who asked me to prove it.

Okay, then. What exactly do you think the vote should be?

Actually, Mario only gets one Starman.

If Shulk has not been shown shapeshifting, I fail to see why we should allow him to shapeshift.

As what I've been explaining the whole time. Anyways, these votes have already been decided, so we should drop it.

When is it shown that Kirby enemies and Mario have the same amount of durability?

They don't. Kirby enemies are more durable (considering most don't die in one hit).

Well, the entire galaxy appears as only a swirling vortex.

What's that supposed to mean.

What exactly are you stacking up?

The Cappies, who are twice as big (actually larger) than Kirby.

Now, that's what I was asking for. How exactly did Kirby defeat this foe, and what other feats of durability has it shown?

He beat it using Hypernova, and the boss tanked its own attacks when Kirby spit them back at her.

It doesn't matter whether or not it's based on power. You're saying that it's impossible for someone to defeat a power level that is higher than their own. I disproved that notion.

Generally, a Pikachu can beat a Pichu. Even so, Pokemon is just one example against hundreds of counterexamples.

• Batman beat the Joker. Batman is more powerful than the Joker.
• Thor beat Loki. Thor is more powerful than Loki.
• Luffy beat Crocodile. Luffy is more powerful than Crocodile.
• Ichigo beat Byakuka. Ichigo is more powerful than Byakuka.
• Goku beat Frieza. Goku is more powerful than Frieza.
• Ben 10 beat Vilgax. Ben 10 is more powerful than Vilgax.

Etcetera, etcetera, etcetera.

Hey look, it's our old friend telegraphed attacks!

I didn't say Kirby is faster than the attacks. I said he is more powerful than Galacta Knight.

I don't see a black hole here.

Because they're inside it.

Because it's blocked by Super Sonic.

Actually, it's not.

• It's a rule that characters get one copy of each item (emphasis on item, NOT equipment, weapon, skill, etc) they can own hold (and some that they cant hold, like Kirby's miracle fruit) . This mean Kirby only gets just 1 invincibility candy. Yes he can store 5 in his stomach in one game, but that goes against the rule. We're not letting PT bring 99 full restores.

In that case, Kirby will hold the following in his stomach.

• Invincibility Candy
• Maxim Tomato
• fully charged Star Spit
• large treasure chest
• Meat

Where does it say in FE1 or 3 that he gets the Darksphere?

It's a part of the Shield of Seals, which he has.

 

[Diddy Kong]

All this talk about heights, weights and real life physics make me wonder how many characters would actually survive being jumped upon their head by Donkey Kong. Who in DK64 canon weights 800 pounds.

 

[BaganSmashBros]

Will quote other stuff once i will have enough time.

All this talk about heights, weights and real life physics make me wonder how many characters would actually survive being jumped upon their head by Donkey Kong. Who in DK64 canon weights 800 pounds.

Samus, ZSS, Link, Ganondorf, Bowser, etc. certainly will be able to handle 800-pound member of the DK crew. Welp, maybe not ZSS, but others certainly will (Samus can surive getting crushed by Vorash, Ridley...every boss with that godd*mn groundpound attack, etc; Bowser is just tough; Ganondorf survived his castle crushing him, etc). But Kirby, Dedede, Meta Knight, Pikachu, Mario, Luigi, Peach, Wii-Fit Trainer, etc? Not so much.

 

[Munomario777]

Because forcefields and Super Sonic have pretty much nothing in common, and you were trying to compare them.

They both block the majority of attacks for one.

"A bullet attacks people. A rock attacks people. A bullet kills people. Therefore, a rock kills people."
Yeah, no. Nice try.

If we were going to compare Super Forms to anything in Pokemon, it would have to be the Mega Evolutions, definitely not Protect.
Super Forms/Mega Evolutions

• Both are transformations.
• Both give stat boosts to their users.
• Both require a specific kind of stone to activate.

Super Forms/Protect

• Both are capable of blocking attacks.

I see it as a combination of both.

The sword is more like 10 or 11 inches, seeing as it was curved in the comparison. Also, Invisibility Stone/Stone/Invincibility Candy works just fine.

If you say so.

Invisibility Stone and Invincibility Candy won't last long enough, and has Stone been shown to survive that sort of attack?

Testing it in Kirby: Squeak Squad, it can destroy a fireball larger than Kirby that can cover the whole ground.

So, not a Super Missile, then?

Then Kirby smashes through the ground using Ultra Sword.

Has it been shown to destroy concrete?

Actually, Mario only gets one Starman.

M'kay. The Mega Mushroom, Vanish Cap, Rainbow Star, etc. should help.

As what I've been explaining the whole time. Anyways, these votes have already been decided, so we should drop it.

M'kay.

They don't. Kirby enemies are more durable (considering most don't die in one hit).

Eight-inch Kirby hits =/= full-scale Mario hits. What is the most that said Kirby enemies can survive?

What's that supposed to mean.

Objects get smaller when viewed from a greater distance. If an entire galaxy is that small on screen, it is surely a large distance.

The Cappies, who are twice as big (actually larger) than Kirby.

How did you determine how many of them are required to reach the statue's height?

He beat it using Hypernova, and the boss tanked its own attacks when Kirby spit them back at her.

Oh, is that the one where Kirby had to inhale the giant laser and spit it back out again?

Generally, a Pikachu can beat a Pichu. Even so, Pokemon is just one example against hundreds of counterexamples.

• Batman beat the Joker. Batman is more powerful than the Joker.
• Thor beat Loki. Thor is more powerful than Loki.
• Luffy beat Crocodile. Luffy is more powerful than Crocodile.
• Ichigo beat Byakuka. Ichigo is more powerful than Byakuka.
• Goku beat Frieza. Goku is more powerful than Frieza.
• Ben 10 beat Vilgax. Ben 10 is more powerful than Vilgax.

Etcetera, etcetera, etcetera.

One positive disproves a negative.

I didn't say Kirby is faster than the attacks. I said he is more powerful than Galacta Knight.

What is your basis for this?

Because they're inside it.

Then how is anything visible?

In that case, Kirby will hold the following in his stomach.

• Invincibility Candy
• Maxim Tomato
• fully charged Star Spit
• large treasure chest
• Meat

The health restores won't help much if he doesn't have time to use them (i.e. if he keeps getting hit hard enough/quickly enough).

Star Spits aren't items, are they?

We're not allowing item containers, are we? Otherwise, Mario gets to carry a ? Block.

 

[Kirby Dragons]

They both block the majority of attacks for one

I wouldn't consider that enough of a comparison.

I see it as a combination of both.

I believe a boost in both Defense and Special Defense is enough to compare to the invincibility granted by a Super Form, giving Protect no place in this.

Invisibility Stone and Invincibility Candy won't last long enough, and has Stone been shown to survive that sort of attack?

Won't last long enough for Sonic rolling into him? I think it will. Stone can protect Kirby from that large, bulky Grand Wheelie that rolls into him, so a Spin Dash shouldn't mean anything.

So, not a Super Missile, then?

The spark field can destroy explosives, and also neutralize their blasts as well.

Has it been shown to destroy concrete?

"Packing pure destructive power, it's a Super Ability! Its name: Ultra Sword! It can rend the Earth as it destroys all in its path!"

M'kay. The Mega Mushroom, Vanish Cap, Rainbow Star, etc. should help.

Though most of those only last a little bit, and the ones that don't disable Mario. Tornado and Wheel give Kirby invincibility while he's attacking. Mega Mushroom/Rainbow Star can be dodged by Kirby on the Warp Star.

Eight-inch Kirby hits =/= full-scale Mario hits. What is the most that said Kirby enemies can survive?

One to three puffs of Fire Breath would be greater than one of Mario's fireballs, and Kirby enemies can survive that.

Objects get smaller when viewed from a greater distance. If an entire galaxy is that small on screen, it is surely a large distance.

If it travels that fast, it means that it would take perfect timing to hit Kirby with it.

How did you determine how many of them are required to reach the statue's height?

By stacking them.

Oh, is that the one where Kirby had to inhale the giant laser and spit it back out again?

Nah, it's where Sectonia sends some of her buds after Kirby, and Kirby uses them as an attack.

One positive disproves a negative.

And I put 2 positives (that Pikachus are generally able to defeat Pichus, also the examples of characters beating others that were less powerful).

What is your basis for this?

Kirby defeating Galacta Knight, also Kirby defeating Meta Knight who defeated Galacta Knight.

Then how is anything visible?

If it wasn't, you couldn't play the game very well.

The health restores won't help much if he doesn't have time to use them (i.e. if he keeps getting hit hard enough/quickly enough).

Is anyone going to actually do that to him though?

Star Spits aren't items, are they?

No, but Kirby's actually able to store them.

We're not allowing item containers, are we? Otherwise, Mario gets to carry a ? Block.

Are ? Blocks portable? And even though the chest would contain a food bubble, I mainly included it so Kirby could hide in it for defense, also throw it at his opponents.

• After some revisiting Kirby Nightmare in Dreamland, I think Kirby should get the Star Rod. In retrospect, it's much more analogous to the Chaos Emeralds (minus that it only appeared in one game). Unlike the Mario Star Rod, he wouldn't need to steal it to get it (it's just sitting in the Fountain of dreams) and he wouldn't need to go on a massive collection quests to other planets like he would to use the Star Ship (his Final ability in Milky Way Wishes). The only argument against him using it is it would make the citizens of Dream Land have either dreamless sleep or nightmares by removing it.

Agree.

 

[Munomario777]

I wouldn't consider that enough of a comparison.

It's more than you can say for Super Sonic and Barrier.

I believe a boost in both Defense and Special Defense is enough to compare to the invincibility granted by a Super Form, giving Protect no place in this.

The point of a comparison like this is to find the closest match.

• Barrier reduces damage received, but the user still takes damage.
• Protect negates most attacks entirely, with a few exceptions.
• Super Sonic negates most attacks entirely, with a few exceptions.

I think it's obvious which two are the closest here.

Won't last long enough for Sonic rolling into him? I think it will. Stone can protect Kirby from that large, bulky Grand Wheelie that rolls into him, so a Spin Dash shouldn't mean anything.

What I mean is, Sonic can keep up his assault for longer than the Invincibility Candy/Invisibility Stone can protect Kirby for.

The spark field can destroy explosives, and also neutralize their blasts as well.

What is the most powerful explosion that Spark has demonstrated this on?

"Packing pure destructive power, it's a Super Ability! Its name: Ultra Sword! It can rend the Earth as it destroys all in its path!

"

So, it hasn't destroyed concrete then?

Though most of those only last a little bit, and the ones that don't disable Mario. Tornado and Wheel give Kirby invincibility while he's attacking. Mega Mushroom/Rainbow Star can be dodged by Kirby on the Warp Star.

The Mega Mushroom lasts quite a while, as does the Rainbow Star. Wheel Kirby is vulnerable while turning, and Tornado Kirby has a bit of time between attacks, during which he can be hit.

One to three puffs of Fire Breath would be greater than one of Mario's fireballs, and Kirby enemies can survive that.

We should be comparing Kirby's attacks to things that Mario is hit by, since Kirby is attacking Mario, not Mario's enemies. On the subject of heat, Mario can actually survive lava. Splorches are balls of lava with eyes that roll towards Mario, and they don't instantly KO him; he just shrinks down a bit/loses a power-up.

If it travels that fast, it means that it would take perfect timing to hit Kirby with it.

Or, you know, chasing Kirby.

By stacking them.

And where is the point of reference for the statue's size?

Nah, it's where Sectonia sends some of her buds after Kirby, and Kirby uses them as an attack.

I see. Can Kirby defeat Sectonia using only his own attacks?

And I put 2 positives (that Pikachus are generally able to defeat Pichus, also the examples of characters beating others that were less powerful).

Let me make this clearer. You're trying to prove a negative ("lower power levels cannot defeat higher ones"). I'm proving the opposite, which is a positive. I provided the positive evidence ("Pichus can beat Pikachus"). My positive disproves your negative.

If it wasn't, you couldn't play the game very well.

If there is visible light entering Kirby's eyes, he is not inside a black hole.

Is anyone going to actually do that to him though?

Probably, if they have the intent of killing him.

No, but Kirby's actually able to store them.

Ah, interesting.

Are ? Blocks portable? And even though the chest would contain a food bubble, I mainly included it so Kirby could hide in it for defense, also throw it at his opponents.

Are treasure chests portable?

 

[Nerdicon]

Except the description for crash says that it vaporizes. Other weapons don't have that description, but you know what? Fine. @ Nerdicon , all of Kirby's weapons can vaporize, therefore, all of Kirby's weapons are generating at least 2.99 gigajoules, making Kirby a rather formidable opponent.

Except the description for crash says that it vaporizes. Other weapons don't have that description, but you know what? Fine. @ Nerdicon , all of Kirby's weapons can vaporize, therefore, all of Kirby's weapons are generating at least 2.99 gigajoules, making Kirby a rather formidable opponent.

Then @ Nerdicon will be pleased to know that Kirby's weapons and even Kirby falling from a short distance vaporizes his opponents, thus generating 2.99 GJ.

I'm mildly offended that you think I'm that big of a fanboy, but @ Munomario777 the point stands lore > gameplay, not the other way around just because it means Sonic doesn't have a perfect match-up against everyone (he already loses to Samus).

Samus, ZSS, Link, Ganondorf, Bowser, etc. certainly will be able to handle 800-pound member of the DK crew. Welp, maybe not ZSS, but others certainly will (Samus can surive getting crushed by Vorash, Ridley...every boss with that godd*mn groundpound attack, etc; Bowser is just tough; Ganondorf survived his castle crushing him, etc). But Kirby, Dedede, Meta Knight, Pikachu, Mario, Luigi, Peach, Wii-Fit Trainer, etc? Not so much.

Any Pokémon can take a heavy slam from Groudon who weighs over a ton. Kirby can take a hit from Blocky when he enlarges himself. (pictures)
I don't have access to Photoshop right now so if anyone wants to find the dimensions of that thing then have fun. Assuming that he's made out of concrete (based on his previous designs and design in normal mode as opposed to DX mode) he would be pretty heavy. I mean, a concrete cube that's 8 • 8 • 8 is almost 40 pounds, so while Blocky won't quite be 800 pounds, that's proof enough that Kirby can take a hit (and that's not even counting how fast he falls)

So, it hasn't destroyed concrete then?

It chopped a volcano in half. I'm pretty sure that granite, or basalt, or whatever it was made of is comparable to concrete in density.

The Mega Mushroom lasts quite a while, as does the Rainbow Star. Wheel Kirby is vulnerable while turning, and Tornado Kirby has a bit of time between attacks, during which he can be hit.

The vulnerability wouldn't trigger if he used the rainbow paintbrush to make a series of curved ramps to slowly turn around. Or he could use the Warp Star (grumble grumble, poor arguments...).

[/quote]We should be comparing Kirby's attacks to things that Mario is hit by, since Kirby is attacking Mario, not Mario's enemies. On the subject of heat, Mario can actually survive lava. Splorches are balls of lava with eyes that roll towards Mario, and they don't instantly KO him; he just shrinks down a bit/loses a power-up. [/quote]
I believe you're referring to lava bubbles, and they are probably much cooler for several reasons. Like them leaving their primary heat source, them being bubbles and by definition being mostly air, etc. Kirby can keep hitting Mario with Spark's attacks.

I see. Can Kirby defeat Sectonia using only his own attacks?

Define "own attacks"

If there is visible light entering Kirby's eyes, he is not inside a black hole.

Black holes are black because no light can escape, so it would be very bright inside a black hole.

Are treasure chests portable?

Yes. See any footage of Kirby Squeak Squad for reference.

 

[Crystanium]

She doesn't. The character in Smash is Rosalina and the Lumas, so that's what we're working with here.

Well, if it's not canon, then we shouldn't use it.

And how exactly will that help in a combat situation taking place in a ten-miles-cubed arena?

Simple. Considering the escape velocity for Earth is approximately 11.2 kilometers per second or 6.96 miles per second, that shouldn't be too hard. Multiply that by 3,600 seconds and that's 25,043.49 miles per hour.

Do you have footage of this?

Well, I just finished playing through Twilight Princess for my wife, but sure.

This isn't really going anywhere, so I suggest we put it up to a vote.

Either way, it'll favor Kirby.

What exactly makes the bosses more durable to vaporization than a normal enemy?

More health. I'm disregarding that, though. Some enemies might have material with a higher melting point, though.

Also, Crash wouldn't be producing that amount of energy anyways. Why? That's the amount required to vaporize a human, not a Kirby enemy. In fact, we know that it can't vaporize a human; even small bosses are left intact! Dryn, about how much TNT force would that equate to?

Well, to make things simple, let's assume two things. First, let's assume the creatures of Pop Star are mostly made up of water. Second, let's assume the enemies have a body temperature of 37°C. I'm not sure how much Kirby weighs, nor do I know where Screw Attack got the information for Kirby having a mass of 283 grams. In order to be vaporized, it must reach 100°C. Well, working with 283 grams, it'll look a bit something like this: Q = mHv

m = mass
Hv = heat of vaporization, or 2,260 J/g for water at 100°C.

Q = (283 g.)(2,260 J/g)
Q = 639,580 J, or 152.86 grams of TNT

According to Wikipedia, a large hand grenade produce 130 kJ. This was likely rounded, but still, Kirby's crash attack should be producing more than that.

I'm mildly offended that you think I'm that big of a fanboy, but @ Munomario777 the point stands lore > gameplay, not the other way around just because it means Sonic doesn't have a perfect match-up against everyone (he already loses to Samus).

I don't think you're a fanboy, but you are supporting Kirby, so I thought you'd be pleased with that. I didn't say it to insult you.

 

[Kirby Dragons]

Most notable qualities of Mechon armor are near immunity to physical damage (physical attacks do 1 point of damage under normal conditions) and halves damage from ether-based attacks. The only problem is reconciling how Mechon shrug off attacks with their armor yet Bionis wildlife are still able to do normal damage against party members outfitted with it (a case of cutscenes and gameplay for the former vs just gameplay for the latter).

Well, a lot of the top tiers use projectiles, so I could only seeing Shulk gaining a bit of an advantage.

It's more than you can say for Super Sonic and Barrier.

When did I bring up Barrier?

The point of a comparison like this is to find the closest match.

• Barrier reduces damage received, but the user still takes damage.
• Protect negates most attacks entirely, with a few exceptions.
• Super Sonic negates most attacks entirely, with a few exceptions.

I think it's obvious which two are the closest here.

Not everything actually has a close enough comparison for them to be called the same. I mean, Super Sonic and Protect may do the same thing, but they are still two different things entirely. We can't just compare everything like this, or we could just say that treasure chests hold items, and King Dedede holds items, so Kirby can hold King Dedede in his stomach.

What I mean is, Sonic can keep up his assault for longer than the Invincibility Candy/Invisibility Stone can protect Kirby for.

It's not like he would though, he'd try some different attacks instead.

What is the most powerful explosion that Spark has demonstrated this on?

Dark Nebula's (the one I mentioned that covers the whole ground).

So, it hasn't destroyed concrete then?

It destroys everything in its path, packs pure destructive power, and rends the earth. If it can't break through concrete, nothing can.

The Mega Mushroom lasts quite a while, as does the Rainbow Star. Wheel Kirby is vulnerable while turning, and Tornado Kirby has a bit of time between attacks, during which he can be hit.

Stone Kirby lasts an infinite amount of time, plus Kirby isn't actually disabled (he can use Stone Uppercut).

We should be comparing Kirby's attacks to things that Mario is hit by, since Kirby is attacking Mario, not Mario's enemies. On the subject of heat, Mario can actually survive lava. Splorches are balls of lava with eyes that roll towards Mario, and they don't instantly KO him; he just shrinks down a bit/loses a power-up.

This would really depend on the quantity or potency of the heat, I'm guessing. Monster Flame is quite massive and burns everything in its path, so it could work.

Or, you know, chasing Kirby.

When a Luma turns into a galaxy, it's not sentient anymore, meaning it can't change direction.

And where is the point of reference for the statue's size?

I see. Can Kirby defeat Sectonia using only his own attacks?

While he didn't in the game, he did defeat King Dedede in the game, who later defeated an amped version of Sectonia without using her attacks against her, so he can.

Let me make this clearer. You're trying to prove a negative ("lower power levels cannot defeat higher ones"). I'm proving the opposite, which is a positive. I provided the positive evidence ("Pichus can beat Pikachus"). My positive disproves your negative.

Then that makes only one universe where the negative is disproved, while it is yet proved in all other universes.

If there is visible light entering Kirby's eyes, he is not inside a black hole.

Basically what Nerdicon said.

Probably, if they have the intent of killing him.

Kirby can actually use healing items while he's getting hit.

Are treasure chests portable?

Yep.

 

[Munomario777]

I'm mildly offended that you think I'm that big of a fanboy, but @ Munomario777 the point stands lore > gameplay, not the other way around just because it means Sonic doesn't have a perfect match-up against everyone (he already loses to Samus).

Lore > gameplay in the case of a contradiction. I fail to see how this would affect Sonic anyways, as well as how Sonic loses to Samus. Care to elaborate on that?

It chopped a volcano in half. I'm pretty sure that granite, or basalt, or whatever it was made of is comparable to concrete in density.

Do you have an image of this?

The vulnerability wouldn't trigger if he used the rainbow paintbrush to make a series of curved ramps to slowly turn around. Or he could use the Warp Star (grumble grumble, poor arguments...).

The Paintbrush doesn't belong to Kirby, so it falls under the same rule that prevents Bowser from getting the Star Rod. If Wheel Kirby is on the Warp Star, he's not rolling around, and thus is vulnerable.

I believe you're referring to lava bubbles, and they are probably much cooler for several reasons. Like them leaving their primary heat source, them being bubbles and by definition being mostly air, etc. Kirby can keep hitting Mario with Spark's attacks.

More specifically these guys:

They seem pretty lava-y to me, as do their trails.

Define "own attacks"

Attacks that aren't Sectonia's projectiles and such spat back.

Black holes are black because no light can escape, so it would be very bright inside a black hole.

I can't imagine you would be able to make out anything, though.

Yes. See any footage of Kirby Squeak Squad for reference.

Ah, I see.

Well, if it's not canon, then we shouldn't use it.

We're taking Smash characters and seeing how they stack up in canon. Rosalina and the Lumas are together for the character, so they are together here.

Simple. Considering the escape velocity for Earth is approximately 11.2 kilometers per second or 6.96 miles per second, that shouldn't be too hard. Multiply that by 3,600 seconds and that's 25,043.49 miles per hour.

How would that help in such a confined space?

Well, I just finished playing through Twilight Princess for my wife, but sure.

I see. The fact that Link is some sort of twilight wolf or something (haven't played TP myself) might have something to do with it.

Either way, it'll favor Kirby.

I'll go ahead and vote for only Crash having these properties (if anything).

More health. I'm disregarding that, though. Some enemies might have material with a higher melting point, though.

And the ones that aren't made of such material?

Well, to make things simple, let's assume two things. First, let's assume the creatures of Pop Star are mostly made up of water. Second, let's assume the enemies have a body temperature of 37°C. I'm not sure how much Kirby weighs, nor do I know where Screw Attack got the information for Kirby having a mass of 283 grams. In order to be vaporized, it must reach 100°C. Well, working with 283 grams, it'll look a bit something like this: Q = mHv

m = mass
Hv = heat of vaporization, or 2,260 J/g for water at 100°C.

Q = (283 g.)(2,260 J/g)
Q = 639,580 J, or 152.86 grams of TNT

According to Wikipedia, a large hand grenade produce 130 kJ. This was likely rounded, but still, Kirby's crash attack should be producing more than that.

I see.

When did I bring up Barrier?

Whatever Pokemon move besides Protect you used. I honestly can't keep track of these things...

Not everything actually has a close enough comparison for them to be called the same. I mean, Super Sonic and Protect may do the same thing, but they are still two different things entirely. We can't just compare everything like this, or we could just say that treasure chests hold items, and King Dedede holds items, so Kirby can hold King Dedede in his stomach.

And here, we have a rather clear-cut example. Super Sonic and Protect are both protective techniques that last a limited time, protect the user from most attacks, and negate said attacks.

As for your Dedede example, I wouldn't be surprised if Hypernova could pull that off.

It's not like he would though, he'd try some different attacks instead.

All of which would prove rather effective against Kirby.

Dark Nebula's (the one I mentioned that covers the whole ground).

And how powerful is it?

It destroys everything in its path, packs pure destructive power, and rends the earth. If it can't break through concrete, nothing can.

So, that's a "no" then?

Stone Kirby lasts an infinite amount of time, plus Kirby isn't actually disabled (he can use Stone Uppercut).

Can Kirby use the uppercut while guarding?

This would really depend on the quantity or potency of the heat, I'm guessing. Monster Flame is quite massive and burns everything in its path, so it could work.

The lava enemies I mentioned above are also survivable by Mario, so I doubt that the fireballs would be that big of a deal.

When a Luma turns into a galaxy, it's not sentient anymore, meaning it can't change direction.

The Luma rockets off at high speeds towards Kirby and transforms when it reaches Kirby.

View attachment 48029

I don't see the statue anywhere in that image.

While he didn't in the game, he did defeat King Dedede in the game, who later defeated an amped version of Sectonia without using her attacks against her, so he can.

What about defeating Dedede makes Kirby more powerful than Sectonia?

Then that makes only one universe where the negative is disproved, while it is yet proved in all other universes.

...

That makes no sense at all. Pichus can beat Pikachus in any universe (assuming that the rules of Pokemon are unchanged).

If you mean different game series, logical principles are universal. They don't need to be proven for every instance.

Kirby can actually use healing items while he's getting hit.

Not if he's dead, which a powerful enough or rapid enough attack(s) would accomplish.

 

[Nerdicon]

Would respond but I feel like I'm dying of asthma over here

Be back as soon as I can

I'll go ahead and vote for only Crash having these properties (if anything).

You know my vote

 

[Z-Bone]

Obviously Mewtwo. Have you seen what he can do in the TV show with only his mind? Next would be Samus.

 

[Crystanium]

We're taking Smash characters and seeing how they stack up in canon. Rosalina and the Lumas are together for the character, so they are together here.

But Lumas are their own person. They're not any more playable than Toad is for Peach. Should Peach be given the option of using Toad for assistance?

How would that help in such a confined space?

Let's take 11.2 km/s and find out the force and energy that would be exerted if Samus were to fly into any of her opponents. The gunship is 136 tons. This likely refers to metric tons, since the Metroid Prime trilogy uses the metric system, such as centigrade and kilometers. Force is mass times acceleration. Let's say it takes about 5 seconds before the gunship reaches its peak velocity. That would mean each second, the gunship is increasing by 2,240 m/s (Mach 6.53). This would mean anyone who was hit by the gunship would be experiencing 304,640,000 newtons, or 34,243.0592 tons-force. In terms of energy, that's 8.5299 * 10^12 joules, or the equivalent of 2.04 kilotons of TNT.

I see. The fact that Link is some sort of twilight wolf or something (haven't played TP myself) might have something to do with it.

Or it just might have to do with the fact that Ganondorf's wound is exposed.

And the ones that aren't made of such material?

They're larger. A cherry bomb might kill a small animal, but it'll blow the fingers off a human.

 

[Kirby Dragons]

The Paintbrush doesn't belong to Kirby, so it falls under the same rule that prevents Bowser from getting the Star Rod. If Wheel Kirby is on the Warp Star, he's not rolling around, and thus is vulnerable.

I think he was talking about the yarn from Kirby and the Rainbow Curse.

Whatever Pokemon move besides Protect you used. I honestly can't keep track of these things...

It was Barrier, but I was bringing it up because Magic Armor was also a barrier.

And here, we have a rather clear-cut example. Super Sonic and Protect are both protective techniques that last a limited time, protect the user from most attacks, and negate said attacks.

Super Sonic isn't even a technique though, it's actually a transformation. Super Sonic and Protect have different blocking properties as well. Protect blocks off nearly everything that could be used against the Pokemon, while Super Sonic only negates attacks, things that would damage Sonic normally. Trick/Skill Swap never damage a Pokemon, yet they are blocked off by Protect. Going deeper into it, invincibility is just one of Super Sonic's attributes, while invincibility is the only one of Protect's attributes.

As for your Dedede example, I wouldn't be surprised if Hypernova could pull that off.

He wouldn't go in Kirby's stomach dimension like the treasure chest, however.

All of which would prove rather effective against Kirby.

Kirby's attacks would prove more effective against Sonic, leading to Kirby's win.

And how powerful is it?

The attack as a whole can deplete all of Kirby's health (combining the damage done by each individual flame composed into the fireball).

So, that's a "no" then?

No, it's obviously a yes.

Can Kirby use the uppercut while guarding?

Yep.

The lava enemies I mentioned above are also survivable by Mario, so I doubt that the fireballs would be that big of a deal.

Not actually a fireball, it's a massive fire dragon that burns everything in its path.

The Luma rockets off at high speeds towards Kirby and transforms when it reaches Kirby.

How does the Luma rocket off before it transforms?

I don't see the statue anywhere in that image.

It's at the top.

What about defeating Dedede makes Kirby more powerful than Sectonia?

Dedede defeated Sectonia.

That makes no sense at all. Pichus can beat Pikachus in any universe (assuming that the rules of Pokemon are unchanged).

That's not what I meant. I meant that in every universe (Pokemon universe excluded), characters are more powerful than everyone they can beat.

If you mean different game series, logical principles are universal. They don't need to be proven for every instance.

Not just game series, all series. Someone weaker beating someone stronger is not a logical principle.

Not if he's dead, which a powerful enough or rapid enough attack(s) would accomplish.

That would just depend on the attack, as Kirby has methods of countering almost all of them.

 

[ShadowLBlue]

No one but muno and Dryn responded to the rules, so I'm reposting them @ BaganSmashBros , @ Nerdicon , @ Kirby Dragons

• It's already agreed Rosalina can start with a Luma. Should Rosalina get to start with as many as she wants? Or should there be a limit? Or should it be just one like in Smash? [
  • As many as she wants: Muno, Me
  • Just one:
• Should Rosalina be able to summon Lumas indefinitely? While they aren't infinite, if they turn into planetary bodies upon dying, there must be an uncountable number of them given the number of black holes, stars and planets in the universe.
  • For: Muno, Me
  • Against:
• Should Palutena be able to summon Centurions indefinitely? I personally vote yes. They may not be as numerous as Lumas, but Palutena revives any who die, so it seems silly to assign an upper limit on how many she can summon that's not high.
  • For: Me
  • Against:
• After some revisiting Kirby Nightmare in Dreamland, I think Kirby should get the Star Rod. In retrospect, it's much more analogous to the Chaos Emeralds (minus that it only appeared in one game). Unlike the Mario Star Rod, he wouldn't need to steal it to get it (it's just sitting in the Fountain of dreams) and he wouldn't need to go on a massive collection quests to other planets like he would to use the Star Ship (his Final ability in Milky Way Wishes). The only argument against him using it is it would make the citizens of Dream Land have either dreamless sleep or nightmares by removing it.
  • For: Kirby D, Me
  • Against:

• How does Kirby obtain the Star Rod, and what happens to it after the boss(es) where it is used?

Has to collect it's 7 pieces (it was broken by Dedede) and it's returned to the Fountain of Dreams afterwards (guess by Kirby).

Nerdicon specified exactly how it works in-game, but I'd be fine with using what you just said. Also, it's 166 uses of Chaos Control with 9,999 Rings.

K. Do any of his other skills besides Sonic Wind (40 rings) cost rings that you know of ?

It wouldn't be ideal for vision (especially all around Kirby), and the larger the hole, the more vulnerable Kirby is.

True, but he's also only 8 inches tall so it's not like he'll be leaving open a big hole. Plus he could close it if he had enough time to react.

Here's my post on Sonic's abilities if you'd like to save it.

Done.

• How many Lumas does Rosalina start with in Super Mario 3D World?
• If she's allowed to summon Lumas in the first place.
• Palutena should be allowed to summon her centurions.
• So, the reason for Kirby being given the star rod is because he didn't steal it or it wasn't "a massive collection question"? (I don't know what that means.)
• Only if that applies to everyone.

• She doesn't
• She is
• I asked if their should be an upper limit, not if they're alllowed.
• Meant quest, was a typo. My point was it wouldn't be any harder for him to collect it than Luigi his vacuum or the Chaos Emeralds in Sonic.

The only thing that would work as they know it.

This argument is as fruitless as last time so I'm done.

I thought all vehicles were forbidden. All right, Samus has her own tier, as no one can compete now.

Explain? It's not as if Samus's ship is invulnerable. I actually wouldn't be opposed to characters (Falcon, Falco and Fox excluded) not getting vehicles.

Could you tell me what's harmful, but not fatal?

In the real world? Probably nothing. In Fiction? Off the top of my head, Dry Bone, noted best in Paper Mario, are a good example. You can reduce their HP however you like, but unless the killing blow involves fire or an explosive, they will reassemble themselves and come back with some or all of their health.
Ganondorf works the same way, except replace Fire/bombs with divine weapons/items.

He may have never been killed, but no one has addressed why the darkburst wouldn't work.

I think once Samus lowers his health enough it would pull him in.

Because bosses have more health. Remove the health (as I've been saying all this time) and the problem is gone.

No, because the HP isn't a game mechanic (in this case). Crash doesn't instantly vaporize bosses because it lacks the power to do so. It might have the power of vaporization, but it only works on sufficiently weakened foes (or weak foes in general).

In that case, Kirby will hold the following in his stomach.

• Invincibility Candy
• Maxim Tomato
• fully charged Star Spit
• large treasure chest
• Meat

Ok. What's in the chest?
You forgot a mini maxim tomato btw, unless you purposely excluded it.

It's a part of the Shield of Seals, which he has.

Except it's effects are negated by the Lightsphere, so it wouldn't work.

But Lumas are their own person. They're not any more playable than Toad is for Peach. Should Peach be given the option of using Toad for assistance?

We've already voted on this, Rosalina's allowed Lumas because her character slot is Rosalina and Lumas.

I wouldn't consider that enough of a comparison.

His point is both protect and Super Sonic's aura grant nigh-invulnerability, so whatever Protect blocks should also be blocked by Super Sonic.

One to three puffs of Fire Breath would be greater than one of Mario's fireballs, and Kirby enemies can survive that..

Unless you're talking about mini-bosses, that's false. Almost of the generic enemies will die upon touching his flame breath once. Just like Mario's foes die upon one fire ball.

 

[Kirby Dragons]

• It's already agreed Rosalina can start with a Luma. Should Rosalina get to start with as many as she wants? Or should there be a limit? Or should it be just one like in Smash? [
  • As many as she wants: Muno, Me
  • Just one:

Just one.

Should Rosalina be able to summon Lumas indefinitely? While they aren't infinite, if they turn into planetary bodies upon dying, there must be an uncountable number of them given the number of black holes, stars and planets in the universe.

• For: Muno, Me
• Against:

Not every black hole/star/planet in the Mario universe was a Luma, so against.

Should Palutena be able to summon Centurions indefinitely? I personally vote yes. They may not be as numerous as Lumas, but Palutena revives any who die, so it seems silly to assign an upper limit on how many she can summon that's not high.

• For: Me
• Against:

I don't think she should be able to summon them indefinitely, but just summon them and revive them when they die.

Ok. What's in the chest?
You forgot a mini maxim tomato btw, unless you purposely excluded it.

A food bubble is in the chest. What's a mini Maxim Tomato?

Except it's effects are negated by the Lightsphere, so it wouldn't work.

Then couldn't Marth just bring the Darksphere and not the Lightsphere?

His point is both protect and Super Sonic's aura grant nigh-invulnerability, so whatever Protect blocks should also be blocked by Super Sonic.

I know what his point is, but I'm saying Protect and Super Sonic wouldn't be able to block the same things.

 

[Crystanium]

Explain? It's not as if Samus's ship is invulnerable. I actually wouldn't be opposed to characters (Falcon, Falco and Fox excluded) not getting vehicles.

I explained in my last post to Munomario777.

In the real world? Probably nothing. In Fiction? Off the top of my head, Dry Bone, noted best in Paper Mario, are a good example. You can reduce their HP however you like, but unless the killing blow involves fire or an explosive, they will reassemble themselves and come back with some or all of their health.
Ganondorf works the same way, except replace Fire/bombs with divine weapons/items.

Even if you kept the skull? I've already presented my argument for the light beam's effectiveness against Ganondorf, so . . .

I think once Samus lowers his health enough it would pull him in.

Except, health isn't the issue. Aerotroopers can be in perfect health and one hit from a darkburst will send them to oblivion. If anything, it would be the mass of the target.

No, because the HP isn't a game mechanic (in this case). Crash doesn't instantly vaporize bosses because it lacks the power to do so. It might have the power of vaporization, but it only works on sufficiently weakened foes (or weak foes in general).

Hit points are, actually. That's why you can fire an arrow into your opponent's head in a game like The Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim and your opponent won't die.

 

[Reckless Godwin 2.0]

Shulk copying Meyneth/Zanza skills/abilities (excluding recreating the world): 3-4 (For: KD, Nerdicon and Reckless; Against: Muno, Bagan Me and Dryn) REJECTED

Shulk manipulating the Monado into weapons: 3-3 (For: KD, Dryn, Reckless, Bagan; Against: muno, me, Nerdicon) APPROVED

Shulk manipulating his body: 3-4 (For: KD, Bagan and Reckless; Against: Muno, me, Nerdicon and Dryn) REJECTED

It seems like there is a discussion about Rosalina, so I guess we should vote on it @ Nerdicon , @ Kirby Dragons , @Dryn , @ BaganSmashBros , @ Reckless Godwin 2.0 , @ Munomario777 :

• It's already agreed Rosalina can start with a Luma. Should Rosalina get to start with as many as she wants? Or should there be a limit? Or should it be just one like in Smash?
• Should Rosalina be able to summon Lumas indefinitely? While they aren't infinite, if they turn into planetary bodies upon dying, there must be an uncountable number of them given the number of black holes, stars and planets in the universe.
• Ditto for Palutena and her Centurions? I personally vote yes. They may not be as numerous as Lumas, but Palutena revives any who die, so it seems silly to assign an upper limit on how many she can summon that's not high.
• After some revisiting Kirby Nightmare in Dreamland, I think Kirby should get the Star Rod. In retrospect, it's much more analogous to the Chaos Emeralds (minus that it only appeared in one game). Unlike the Mario Star Rod, he wouldn't need to steal it to get it (it's just sitting in the Fountain of dreams) and he wouldn't need to go on a massive collection quests to other planets like he would to use the Star Ship (his Final ability in Milky Way Wishes). The only argument against him using it is it would make the citizens of Dream Land have either dreamless sleep or nightmares by removing it.

Actually a good idea. We should have been bookmarking/saving some of these posts. Do you think you can find your long post on Shulk with his ideal set-up?

He summons the Monado?

This got approved so he can manipulate his weapon. I think it should go without saying he should only be able to manipulate it into weapons he's seen.

If you're asking how much range they'd have in real life, idk. Siege tomes should presumably be able to be used from at least the same distance as real ones, and a the fartherst distance I saw on google wa 1200 yards, or nearly 7/10 of a mile.
As for ranged weapons, those are hard to guess. We know they are capable of firing over houses and forts, but not castles or villages. Maybe @Dryn could estimate something?

Boo!
Yay!
Boo!

• I suppose we cold let her start with however many were in the Comet Observatory.
• Yes she should have no upper limit to summoning them.
• Yes as well.
• Would the Star Rod make much of an impact for Kirby? Doesn’t Kirby already have plenty of good projectiles? Yes he can use it.

I have it and a few others saved on my computer.

In order to summon something it has to exist before hand. This is the first time the Monado III shows up in the game so it can’t have been summoned.

Agreed. We know he has made drivers for Reyn and offered to make Ether Rifles for Sharla.

We have to account for the apparent difference in range that occurs on outdoor maps where a castle takes up a 3x3 area and the indoor maps where said castle takes up the whole map yet attacks still have the same range. The siege tombs have the same range as normal and Killer ballista (3-10), but fall short of the Iron Ballista’s range (3-15).

Examples of ranged fire in the Fire Emblem series:

• FE 7 Ballista: https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=nyCIcAL-Fws#t=229 at 3:48-3:50 (there is even a 3x3 sized town in the upper right for comparison.
• FE 8 Bolting (siege tome): https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=yS4eyeRpgdk#t=868 at 14:28-14:41.
• FE 10 Iron Ballista: https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=hyBAMv6amPk#t=340 at 5:40-5:50.
• FE 10 Bolting: https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=cmzCUUe-5AI#t=850 at 14:10-14:20
• FE 9 2 range Ragnell waves: https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=MvOmno8uvtU#t=571 at 9:31-9:41.
• FE 7 2 range fire and bow: https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=wuCwcg-QM_E#t=130 at 2:10-2:21.
• FE 10 Cutscene arrow range: https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=DgvNwec-9bA The Setting: 0:00-0:05, camera pans over to the Archer’s Location: 0:15-0:23, The Shot: 1:03-1:08 (the arrow is in flight for about 3 seconds).

@Dryn can you give us some estimates?

When is it stated that anyone that can manipulate Ether can also shapeshift?

Ether manipulation plus the fact that bodies are made of ether equals shape shifting. The curse of the High Entia is an example of this occurring in mass.

Samus, ZSS, Link, Ganondorf, Bowser, etc. certainly will be able to handle 800-pound member of the DK crew. Welp, maybe not ZSS, but others certainly will (Samus can surive getting crushed by Vorash, Ridley...every boss with that godd*mn groundpound attack, etc; Bowser is just tough; Ganondorf survived his castle crushing him, etc). But Kirby, Dedede, Meta Knight, Pikachu, Mario, Luigi, Peach, Wii-Fit Trainer, etc? Not so much.

Shulk can too! In Soviet Bionis Turtle Stomps on you (https://www.youtube.com/watch?list=...=u-4i3_WkTYg&feature=player_detailpage#t=1001 at 16:41-16:46)! @Dryn any estimates on how much that thing weights?

It's more than you can say for Super Sonic and Barrier.

The point of a comparison like this is to find the closest match.

• Barrier reduces damage received, but the user still takes damage.
• Protect negates most attacks entirely, with a few exceptions.
• Super Sonic negates most attacks entirely, with a few exceptions.

I think it's obvious which two are the closest here.

Let me make this clearer. You're trying to prove a negative ("lower power levels cannot defeat higher ones"). I'm proving the opposite, which is a positive. I provided the positive evidence ("Pichus can beat Pikachus"). My positive disproves your negative.

No Super Sonic’s invincibility is more comparable to how the defense and resistance stats work in Fire Emblem. If your attacks don’t exceed the threshold of his defense than they wind up being useless. If you attacks do exceed that threshold then he takes greatly reduced damage compared to no defense.

Pikachus only have to beat Pichus greater than 50% of the time to be considered stronger than them.

Black holes are black because no light can escape, so it would be very bright inside a black hole.

That’s not how real black holes work! All light gets pulled into the singularity in the middle rendering vision useless except for what’s coming in on top of you. Are we certain that this isn’t an inter-dimensional rip in space-time instead?

More health. I'm disregarding that, though. Some enemies might have material with a higher melting point, though.

The increased size of bosses likely means they have thicker skin and can take more punishment before being incapacitated. We can’t ignore durability feats like surviving one use of crash.

Well, a lot of the top tiers use projectiles, so I could only seeing Shulk gaining a bit of an advantage.

Yes I can see Samus and Pit overwhelming Shulk with that armor, but normal arrows and slingshot rounds from Link would be useless. Sonic would throw a fit when he runs into armor that won’t give way to his quills.

 

[Munomario777]

But Lumas are their own person. They're not any more playable than Toad is for Peach. Should Peach be given the option of using Toad for assistance?

The difference between Toad and the Lumas is that the Lumas are a core part of the main character. They have their own full moveset, spot on the artwork, and are mentioned in the character name. The same goes for the Pikmin (except they're incorporated into the moveset rather than having their own).

Let's take 11.2 km/s and find out the force and energy that would be exerted if Samus were to fly into any of her opponents. The gunship is 136 tons. This likely refers to metric tons, since the Metroid Prime trilogy uses the metric system, such as centigrade and kilometers. Force is mass times acceleration. Let's say it takes about 5 seconds before the gunship reaches its peak velocity. That would mean each second, the gunship is increasing by 2,240 m/s (Mach 6.53). This would mean anyone who was hit by the gunship would be experiencing 304,640,000 newtons, or 34,243.0592 tons-force. In terms of energy, that's 8.5299 * 10^12 joules, or the equivalent of 2.04 kilotons of TNT.

My point is that I can't imagine it would be controllable in a confined space. At the speed you're using, Samus would be at the other end of the battlefield within two seconds. I doubt the acceleration, brakes, steering, Samus's reaction time, etc. would be enough to handle that speed in a ten-mile-wide arena.

Or it just might have to do with the fact that Ganondorf's wound is exposed.

True. Worth noting is that other incarnations, such as Beast Ganon from Ocarina, don't share this trait:

They're larger. A cherry bomb might kill a small animal, but it'll blow the fingers off a human.

We don't see the fingers being blown off of the bosses, however.

I think he was talking about the yarn from Kirby and the Rainbow Curse.

That's granted by Elline (Elline, a line, haha!), who is an ally:

It was Barrier, but I was bringing it up because Magic Armor was also a barrier.

Since when were we talking about the Magic Armor?

Super Sonic isn't even a technique though, it's actually a transformation.

It's a technique that transforms Sonic into his Super form.

Super Sonic and Protect have different blocking properties as well. Protect blocks off nearly everything that could be used against the Pokemon, while Super Sonic only negates attacks, things that would damage Sonic normally. Trick/Skill Swap never damage a Pokemon, yet they are blocked off by Protect.

Care to provide examples where Super Sonic is affected by a non-damaging attack, then?

Going deeper into it, invincibility is just one of Super Sonic's attributes, while invincibility is the only one of Protect's attributes.

And?

He wouldn't go in Kirby's stomach dimension like the treasure chest, however.

Do enemies go into that stomach dimension? If so, I don't see why Dedede wouldn't.

Kirby's attacks would prove more effective against Sonic, leading to Kirby's win.

Care to elaborate?

The attack as a whole can deplete all of Kirby's health (combining the damage done by each individual flame composed into the fireball).

What does the explosion look like in-game? If we had an image, we could calculate its force.

No, it's obviously a yes.

Then why didn't you provide an example of the Ultra Sword cutting through concrete?

Yep.

Is he still invulnerable during the uppercut?

Not actually a fireball, it's a massive fire dragon that burns everything in its path.

That's a fireball.

How does the Luma rocket off before it transforms?

The same way it does in-game.

It's at the top.

That doesn't look like the same statue to me. A better comparison would be to use a close-up scene of the statue. I recall a scene where it was scrolling down the statue; you could piece together the frames of that and compare them with Kirby's height.

Dedede defeated Sectonia.

Since this relies on the argument below, I'll cut off this little reply string.

That's not what I meant. I meant that in every universe (Pokemon universe excluded), characters are more powerful than everyone they can beat.

Not just game series, all series. Someone weaker beating someone stronger is not a logical principle.

Allow me to list off other examples, then:

• Sonic and Knuckles clearly must have different power levels, correct? Then how can Knuckles beat Sonic in his story in Sonic Adventure, and vice-versa?
• Bowser is clearly more powerful than Mario, yet the latter defeats the former time and time again.
• In Kirby Air Ride, a ride with inferior stats can beat one with superior stats in a race.
• Little Mac. 'Nuff said.
• Et cetera, et cetera.

That would just depend on the attack, as Kirby has methods of countering almost all of them.

Care to elaborate?

Has to collect it's 7 pieces (it was broken by Dedede) and it's returned to the Fountain of Dreams afterwards (guess by Kirby).

I see. It doesn't seem like Kirby actually owns the Star Rod here.

K. Do any of his other skills besides Sonic Wind (40 rings) cost rings that you know of ?

There's "Speed Up", which increases Sonic's speed temporarily and requires 20 Rings.

True, but he's also only 8 inches tall so it's not like he'll be leaving open a big hole. Plus he could close it if he had enough time to react.

Explosions and such would prove effective here, though.

Ether manipulation plus the fact that bodies are made of ether equals shape shifting. The curse of the High Entia is an example of this occurring in mass.

Greninjas can manipulate water, yet they cannot manipulate the water inside themselves or other people/Pokemon. (Or maybe they're the same thing... I dunno.)

No Super Sonic’s invincibility is more comparable to how the defense and resistance stats work in Fire Emblem. If your attacks don’t exceed the threshold of his defense than they wind up being useless. If you attacks do exceed that threshold then he takes greatly reduced damage compared to no defense.

Protect and Super Sonic both protect against the majority of attacks, with a few exceptions. There's no stat system in Sonic, but we do see that in Pokemon, Protect doesn't affect stats. Super Sonic doesn't affect stats either (seeing as how there are none), so it's the best match no matter how you look at it.

Pikachus only have to beat Pichus greater than 50% of the time to be considered stronger than them.

Pikachus have better stats than Pichus, and they probably do beat Pichus more than 50% of the time as a result.

 

[ShadowLBlue]

Just one.

Noted.

Not every black hole/star/planet in the Mario universe was a Luma, so against.

Is there a certain number of them you think their are?

I don't think she should be able to summon them indefinitely, but just summon them and revive them when they die

Good point

A food bubble is in the chest. What's a mini Maxim Tomato?

You know how in True arena instead of one maxim Tomato, you get basically 5 or 6 smaller ones that collectively heal as much as a Maxim Tomato? Those.

Then couldn't Marth just bring the Darksphere and not the Lightsphere?

...It would corrupt his mind, but sure. If that's the case, why didn't you make him #1? This means he has permanent invincibility.

BTW, do you think the Star Rod lets Kirby fly, or was that just him falling very slowly for some reason while fighting Nightmare's orb form?

I know what his point is, but I'm saying Protect and Super Sonic wouldn't be able to block the same things.

Yea, we have no way of knowing...

I explained in my last post to Munomario777.

You said it moves at light speed. What does that prove?

Even if you kept the skull? I've already presented my argument for the light beam's effectiveness against Ganondorf, so . . .

What do you mean kept the skull?

Except, health isn't the issue. Aerotroopers can be in perfect health and one hit from a darkburst will send them to oblivion. If anything, it would be the mass of the target.

It doesn't work on bosses at full health, so it wouldn't work on anyone here unless they were weakened.

Hit points are, actually. That's why you can fire an arrow into your opponent's head in a game like The Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim and your opponent won't die.

A) You're comparing humans to non-humans.
B) Also, if I'm not mistaken, in Skyrim, enemy's body parts aren't coded to receive specific damage so that's a better explanation than that they survive do to having HP. (i.e. how in some games like Resident evil 4 if you shoot an enemy in the head enough times it's head might explode. Also, if you shoot them in the leg, they'll temporarily be unable to walk.) So that example doesn't work in that case.

Rules update:

• It's already agreed Rosalina can start with a Luma. Should Rosalina get to start with as many as she wants? Or should there be a limit? Or should it be just one like in Smash? [
  • As many as she wants: Muno,
  • Just one: Kirby D
  • As many as were present in Comet Observatory: Reckless, me
• Should Rosalina be able to summon Lumas indefinitely? While they aren't infinite, if they turn into planetary bodies upon dying, there must be an uncountable number of them given the number of black holes, stars and planets in the universe.
  • For: Muno, Me, Reckless
  • Against: Kirby D
• Should Palutena be able to summon Centurions indefinitely? I personally vote yes. They may not be as numerous as Lumas, but Palutena revives any who die,so it seems silly to assign an upper limit on how many she can summon that's not high.
  • For: Me, reckless
  • Against: Kirby D
• After some revisiting Kirby Nightmare in Dreamland, I think Kirby should get the Star Rod. In retrospect, it's much more analogous to the Chaos Emeralds (minus that it only appeared in one game). Unlike the Mario Star Rod, he wouldn't need to steal it to get it (it's just sitting in the Fountain of dreams) and he wouldn't need to go on a massive collection quests to other planets like he would to use the Star Ship (his Final ability in Milky Way Wishes). The only argument against him using it is it would make the citizens of Dream Land have either dreamless sleep or nightmares by removing it.
  • For: Kirby D, Me, Reckless
  • Against:

Boo!
Yay!
Boo!

Sorry! 1 of 3 passed lol

• I suppose we cold let her start with however many were in the Comet Observatory.
• Yes she should have no upper limit to summoning them.
• Yes as well.
• Would the Star Rod make much of an impact for Kirby? Doesn’t Kirby already have plenty of good projectiles? Yes he can use it.

• I actually love this idea. Enough so to change my vote
• k
• k
• Well I think it is one of, if not the only, ability that let's him easily throw long range projectiles. Other abilities projectiles either require charging if you want them to have significant power (Spark) or are much smaller (ninja).

I have it and a few others saved on my computer.

Could you repost?

Agreed. We know he has made drivers for Reyn and offered to make Ether Rifles for Sharla.

What are each of his teammates ultimate weapon? Also, doesn't this mean he could make one of Reyn's shields and attack with the Monado, to further protect himself from projectiles?

We have to account for the apparent difference in range that occurs on outdoor maps where a castle takes up a 3x3 area and the indoor maps where said castle takes up the whole map yet attacks still have the same range. The siege tombs have the same range as normal and Killer ballista (3-10), but fall short of the Iron Ballista’s range (3-15).

Hmmm, good point. Can't we just call it a game mechanic that they don't bother to increase the range? I doubt they (heroes or villains) would intentionally use a weapon that covers less distance inside a castle.

Ether manipulation plus the fact that bodies are made of ether equals shape shifting. The curse of the High Entia is an example of this occurring in mass.

The increased size of bosses likely means they have thicker skin and can take more punishment before being incapacitated. We can’t ignore durability feats like surviving one use of crash.

Great point.

Yes I can see Samus and Pit overwhelming Shulk with that armor, but normal arrows and slingshot rounds from Link would be useless. Sonic would throw a fit when he runs into armor that won’t give way to his quills.

True, but Link has the Nice Fire/Ice Rod, 3 Medallions, and other weapons.

I thought of why Bionis creatures can harm you with Mechon Armor: Maybe Mechon armor only negates (well, reduces to 1) all physical damage if it connects all over your body? There are still openings to the organic parts of the bodies of the playable characters.

My point is that I can't imagine it would be controllable in a confined space. At the speed you're using, Samus would be at the other end of the battlefield within two seconds. I doubt the acceleration, brakes, steering, Samus's reaction time, etc. would be enough to handle that speed in a ten-mile-wide arena.
.

Actually, you can set your destination point, so theoretically she could set it's point to wherever the foe is and then ram into/through it while moving at FTL speed. The real question is whether it can set destination points to random and small locations since it was designed for going to planets. @Dryn , thoughts?

 

[Munomario777]

Actually, you can set your destination point, so theoretically she could set it's point to wherever the foe is and then ram into/through it while moving at FTL speed. The real question is whether it can set destination points to random and small locations since it was designed for going to planets. @Dryn , thoughts?

Unless the gunship has demonstrated some crazy braking abilities, Samus is going to fly into the wall if she tries to ram at light speed.

 

[Nerdicon]

Well, to make things simple, let's assume two things. First, let's assume the creatures of Pop Star are mostly made up of water. Second, let's assume the enemies have a body temperature of 37°C. I'm not sure how much Kirby weighs, nor do I know where Screw Attack got the information for Kirby having a mass of 283 grams. In order to be vaporized, it must reach 100°C. Well, working with 283 grams, it'll look a bit something like this: Q = mHv

Kirby's weight from my calculations:

Spoiler: Little Bit of Math down here

Kirby's height is 8 inches, making 8 inches his diameter as well.
We can find Kirby's weight via the formula m = dV where d is density and V is volume.
Volume is simple, all that's necessary is to use Kirby's eight inch diameter to find the volume of a sphere (V = [4/3]πr^3)
Radius is just half of the diameter, so r = 4 inches. Doing the math, Kirby's volume is 268.082573 cubic inches.
Kirby's density can only really be approximated, given that he does not display buoyancy in water without puffing up his density can be described as >1. Converting inches to centimeters that makes Kirby 4393.086 cubic centimeters. Making our equation m > 1 • 4393.086 and, obviously, 1 • 4393.086 is 4393.086 so Kirby weighs more than 4393.086 grams or 9.68509678 pounds.

So your final calculation would actually be 4393.086 • 2,260 J/g which is a far more impressive number.
(9,928,374.36 joules > 639,580 joules)
9,928,374.36 joules is almost 10 megajoules (exactly 9.92837436 megajoules) or a little more than 2 kilograms of TNT (exactly 2.37293842 kilograms of TNT). That's the equivalent of 25 hand grenades going off at once. So yeah ouch.

 

[Munomario777]

Kirby's weight from my calculations:

Spoiler: Little Bit of Math down here

Kirby's height is 8 inches, making 8 inches his diameter as well.
We can find Kirby's weight via the formula m = dV where d is density and V is volume.
Volume is simple, all that's necessary is to use Kirby's eight inch diameter to find the volume of a sphere (V = [4/3]πr^3)
Radius is just half of the diameter, so r = 4 inches. Doing the math, Kirby's volume is 268.082573 cubic inches.
Kirby's density can only really be approximated, given that he does not display buoyancy in water without puffing up his density can be described as >1. Converting inches to centimeters that makes Kirby 4393.086 cubic centimeters. Making our equation m > 1 • 4393.086 and, obviously, 1 • 4393.086 is 4393.086 so Kirby weighs more than 4393.086 grams or 9.68509678 pounds.

So your final calculation would actually be 4393.086 • 2,260 J/g which is a far more impressive number.
(9,928,374.36 joules > 639,580 joules)
9,928,374.36 joules is almost 10 megajoules (exactly 9.92837436 megajoules) or a little more than 2 kilograms of TNT (exactly 2.37293842 kilograms of TNT). That's the equivalent of 25 hand grenades going off at once. So yeah ouch.

If Kirby weighs 9 pounds, how does he fly just by filling up with air? Also, can't he swim without puffing up?

 

[Kirby Dragons]

That's granted by Elline (Elline, a line, haha!), who is an ally:

Then Kirby turns around when he's at a distance from the opponent.

Since when were we talking about the Magic Armor?

That one's on you, you brought up Barrier, which relates to the Magic Armor.

It's a technique that transforms Sonic into his Super form.

The actual transforming is the technique, but Super Sonic. Cause, not effect.

Care to provide examples where Super Sonic is affected by a non-damaging attack, then?

Eggman draining his energy. Whereas, something like Mega Drain is blocked by Protect.

And?

More evidence that Super Sonic and Protect are too different.

Do enemies go into that stomach dimension? If so, I don't see why Dedede wouldn't.

They are, but they're transferred into stars and then destroyed.

Care to elaborate?

Kirby could:

• put him to sleep by crashing into him using Sleep
• throw him across the arena
• Hypernova him
• blow him up with Baton
• freeze him with Snow Bowl

What does the explosion look like in-game? If we had an image, we could calculate its force.

I'll try to provide one later.

Then why didn't you provide an example of the Ultra Sword cutting through concrete?

I don't need an example. It destroys everything in its path, so concrete would break no problem.

In fact, Kirby threw a frying pan around the sum (watch Death Battle for reference), so picking up the clown car so he can get out would be no problem. Even with Bowser sitting on it.

Is he still invulnerable during the uppercut?

Yep.

That's a fireball.

And that's a giant flaming dragon that burns everything in its path.

The same way it does in-game.

Then Kirby inhales the Luma right before it transforms.

That doesn't look like the same statue to me. A better comparison would be to use a close-up scene of the statue. I recall a scene where it was scrolling down the statue; you could piece together the frames of that and compare them with Kirby's height.

It was the same statue, just before it changed its appearance. I could try to do that later when I'm not on a phone.

Allow me to list off other examples, then:

• Sonic and Knuckles clearly must have different power levels, correct? Then how can Knuckles beat Sonic in his story in Sonic Adventure, and vice-versa?

Did Sonic actually use his power here? Super Sonic?

• Bowser is clearly more powerful than Mario, yet the latter defeats the former time and time again.

What makes you say Bowser's more powerful?

• In Kirby Air Ride, a ride with inferior stats can beat one with superior stats in a race.

Race, not a fight.

• Little Mac. 'Nuff said.

What about him?

Care to elaborate?

It depends on the attack.

There's "Speed Up", which increases Sonic's speed temporarily and requires 20 Rings.

Doesn't it require that machine that's too heavy for Sonic to actually carry?

Greninjas can manipulate water, yet they cannot manipulate the water inside themselves or other people/Pokemon. (Or maybe they're the same thing... I dunno.)

If you're trying to prove that Monado wielders can't control themselves, then it's pointless, seeing as they have actually done that.

Pikachus have better stats than Pichus, and they probably do beat Pichus more than 50% of the time as a result.

Then you basically just disproved yourself, by saying that Pikachus beat Pichus.

 

[Kirby Dragons]

Is there a certain number of them you think their are?

Probably well over 1000.

You know how in True arena instead of one maxim Tomato, you get basically 5 or 6 smaller ones that collectively heal as much as a Maxim Tomato? Those.

If they don't heal that much, then I think it's not that great a choice.

...It would corrupt his mind, but sure. If that's the case, why didn't you make him #1? This means he has permanent invincibility.

I don't think it would allow him to survive a black hole from Rosalina, but he probably should be higher. Should Lucina be able to use the Darksphere as well?

BTW, do you think the Star Rod lets Kirby fly, or was that just him falling very slowly for some reason while fighting Nightmare's orb form?

That was probably just falling.

Yea, we have no way of knowing...

Earlier in the thread, we did determine that any of Mewtwo's psionics (even the attacks) would work on Super Sonic.

 

[Munomario777]

Then Kirby turns around when he's at a distance from the opponent.

And the opponent could chase him.

That one's on you, you brought up Barrier, which relates to the Magic Armor.

Oh, I did bring that up. I meant whatever you meant when you were talking about Special Defense.

The actual transforming is the technique, but Super Sonic. Cause, not effect.

Similarly, I could say that the technique of Protect is putting up the barrier, not the barrier itself.

Eggman draining his energy. Whereas, something like Mega Drain is blocked by Protect.

That was specifically designed to harness Chaos Energy, and didn't actually damage Sonic (which Mega Drain does to Pokemon).

More evidence that Super Sonic and Protect are too different.

Super Sonic's invincibility and Protect's invincibility are similar. Protect's limited function is irrelevant.

They are, but they're transferred into stars and then destroyed.

I see.

Kirby could:

• put him to sleep by crashing into him using Sleep
• throw him across the arena
• Hypernova him
• blow him up with Baton
• freeze him with Snow Bowl

• Leaves him wide open, and he wouldn't catch Sonic
• Via which method?
• Sonic is too fast, plus Chaos Control
• Sonic is too fast for the laser
• Sonic is too fast

I'll try to provide one later.

M'kay.

I don't need an example. It destroys everything in its path, so concrete would break no problem.

And concrete has never been in its path, so we can't assume that it could destroy it.

In fact, Kirby threw a frying pan around the sum (watch Death Battle for reference), so picking up the clown car so he can get out would be no problem. Even with Bowser sitting on it.

A frying pan =/= a large clown helicopter with a giant turtle sitting on it.

Yep.

Does he have any decent mobility while performing this?

And that's a giant flaming dragon that burns everything in its path.

Is this reflected in gameplay?

Then Kirby inhales the Luma right before it transforms.

And another comes behind him.

It was the same statue, just before it changed its appearance. I could try to do that later when I'm not on a phone.

M'kay. I'll wait for that, then.

Did Sonic actually use his power here? Super Sonic?

No. My point is, Sonic and Knuckles likely don't have the same power level; one is stronger than the other. However, Sonic can beat Knuckles, and Knuckles can beat Sonic. One of these instances has a weaker character defeating a stronger character.

What makes you say Bowser's more powerful?

Bowser can do this. Mario cannot.

Race, not a fight.

And? It's a weaker thing beating a stronger thing.

What about him?

He's smaller and weaker than the majority of his opponents.

It depends on the attack.

Okay, feel free to list them then.

Doesn't it require that machine that's too heavy for Sonic to actually carry?

I'm talking about the technique from Sonic Adventure 2's multiplayer mode; I'm not sure what you're referring to.

If you're trying to prove that Monado wielders can't control themselves, then it's pointless, seeing as they have actually done that.

Shulk hasn't. The argument is over though, so I'll move on from this.

Then you basically just disproved yourself, by saying that Pikachus beat Pichus.

But Pichus can beat Pikachus. Pikachus are stronger, yet they can still lose.

 

[Crystanium]

FE 7 Ballista: https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=nyCIcAL-Fws#t=229 at 3:48-3:50 (there is even a 3x3 sized town in the upper right for comparison.

• FE 8 Bolting (siege tome): https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=yS4eyeRpgdk#t=868 at 14:28-14:41.
• FE 10 Iron Ballista: https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=hyBAMv6amPk#t=340 at 5:40-5:50.
• FE 10 Bolting: https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=cmzCUUe-5AI#t=850 at 14:10-14:20
• FE 9 2 range Ragnell waves: https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=MvOmno8uvtU#t=571 at 9:31-9:41.
• FE 7 2 range fire and bow: https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=wuCwcg-QM_E#t=130 at 2:10-2:21.
• FE 10 Cutscene arrow range: https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=DgvNwec-9bA The Setting: 0:00-0:05, camera pans over to the Archer’s Location: 0:15-0:23, The Shot: 1:03-1:08 (the arrow is in flight for about 3 seconds).

@Dryn can you give us some estimates?

I could give realistic estimates. Perhaps the weapons behave differently, but it's difficult to get a grasp of the range using an overhead map like that. I would agree with you that using a castle would probably be the best way to determine the area of one block, but yeah. Overhead range like that is not easy to determine. According to this site, the range of an actual ballista "was greater than 411.5 meters (450 yards) with 2.7 to 3.6 kilogram (6 to 8 lb.) shot. The larget ballistae could hurl 27.2 kilogram (60 lb.) weights up to 457.2 meters (500 yards)."

I suppose we could assume the same for the iron ballista. Bolting is another thing of its own. It looks like the user is casting lightning. I wouldn't know how to determine this. Ike's Ragnell waves look to be about 14 feet from that video. As for the arrow, I timed it to be 2.263 seconds on my first try. The distance between the archer and the woman looks to be about 50 yards, honestly. If I assume 100 meters, then that gives a speed of 44 m/s. I suppose from a show called Weapons That Made Britain had an arrow recorded traveling up to 52 m/s, so it's a reasonable speed, I suppose.

Shulk can too! In Soviet Bionis Turtle Stomps on you (https://www.youtube.com/watch?list=...=u-4i3_WkTYg&feature=player_detailpage#t=1001 at 16:41-16:46)! @Dryn any estimates on how much that thing weights?

Probably several tons in the double digits. I don't know the exact measurement and I'm not sure what to make of battles like that where the enemy can crush you without any death occurring.

The increased size of bosses likely means they have thicker skin and can take more punishment before being incapacitated. We can’t ignore durability feats like surviving one use of crash.

It's not really about thicker skin as it is mostly about the area the blast covers.

The difference between Toad and the Lumas is that the Lumas are a core part of the main character. They have their own full moveset, spot on the artwork, and are mentioned in the character name. The same goes for the Pikmin (except they're incorporated into the moveset rather than having their own).

Makes sense.

My point is that I can't imagine it would be controllable in a confined space. At the speed you're using, Samus would be at the other end of the battlefield within two seconds. I doubt the acceleration, brakes, steering, Samus's reaction time, etc. would be enough to handle that speed in a ten-mile-wide arena.

Probably. She'd need to travel at a slower speed, then. Well, comparatively slower than 11.2 km/s.

True. Worth noting is that other incarnations, such as Beast Ganon from Ocarina, don't share this trait:

I know.

We don't see the fingers being blown off of the bosses, however.

But we do see them being incapacitated and die if Kirby doesn't inhale them.

You said it moves at light speed. What does that prove?

It's faster than any known speed from the roster.

What do you mean kept the skull?

I always imagined in games like Castlevania: Symphony of the Night with the red skeletons that if you held onto the skull or some other bone, it would disrupt the reformation of the skeleton.

It doesn't work on bosses at full health, so it wouldn't work on anyone here unless they were weakened.

That's because bosses are larger. That has nothing to do with health.

A) You're comparing humans to non-humans.

But I already made it clear that Link is a human. He's referred to as such in TP and SS.

Actually, you can set your destination point, so theoretically she could set it's point to wherever the foe is and then ram into/through it while moving at FTL speed. The real question is whether it can set destination points to random and small locations since it was designed for going to planets. @Dryn , thoughts?

Well, it's clear in Metroid Prime 3: Corruption and Metroid: Other M that setting a destination is how the gunship works for FTL travel. The speed would have to be slower, than 11.2 km/s to stop in time, but the mass of the gunship would still make up for the lack of speed.

Kirby's weight from my calculations:

Spoiler: Little Bit of Math down here

Kirby's height is 8 inches, making 8 inches his diameter as well.
We can find Kirby's weight via the formula m = dV where d is density and V is volume.
Volume is simple, all that's necessary is to use Kirby's eight inch diameter to find the volume of a sphere (V = [4/3]πr^3)
Radius is just half of the diameter, so r = 4 inches. Doing the math, Kirby's volume is 268.082573 cubic inches.
Kirby's density can only really be approximated, given that he does not display buoyancy in water without puffing up his density can be described as >1. Converting inches to centimeters that makes Kirby 4393.086 cubic centimeters. Making our equation m > 1 • 4393.086 and, obviously, 1 • 4393.086 is 4393.086 so Kirby weighs more than 4393.086 grams or 9.68509678 pounds.

So your final calculation would actually be 4393.086 • 2,260 J/g which is a far more impressive number.
(9,928,374.36 joules > 639,580 joules)
9,928,374.36 joules is almost 10 megajoules (exactly 9.92837436 megajoules) or a little more than 2 kilograms of TNT (exactly 2.37293842 kilograms of TNT). That's the equivalent of 25 hand grenades going off at once. So yeah ouch.

Impressive, but let me apply a little more here. If water is 0.99997 g/cm^3, (or 1 g/cm^3), we could assume that since Kirby sinks in water, his density is around 1.5 g/cm^3. Kirby is 20.32 centimeters, giving him a volume as you put, 4,393.086 cm^3. Multiplying this by 1.5 g/cm^3 gives us 6,589.63 g., giving us 14,892,562.5 J, or 3.56 kilograms of TNT.

If Kirby weighs 9 pounds, how does he fly just by filling up with air? Also, can't he swim without puffing up?

There are birds that weigh more than 9 lb. Kirby can swim without puffing up, but he's not floating above water unless he fills himself with air. Humans are somewhat denser than water, but they can swim as well.

 

[Munomario777]

Probably. She'd need to travel at a slower speed, then. Well, comparatively slower than 11.2 km/s.

Yeah.

I know.

So the weak spot would be a non-issue, and Beast Ganon would be protected from Samus's darkburst.

But we do see them being incapacitated and die if Kirby doesn't inhale them.

There's no vaporization happening until the boss is defeated, though.

There are birds that weigh more than 9 lb. Kirby can swim without puffing up, but he's not floating above water unless he fills himself with air. Humans are somewhat denser than water, but they can swim as well.

I don't know of any birds that fly by inhaling. I dunno though. Kirby just doesn't seem like he would weight nine pounds (especially with his rather slow fall speed).

 

[Nerdicon]

I don't know of any birds that fly by inhaling. I dunno though. Kirby just doesn't seem like he would weight nine pounds (especially with his rather slow fall speed).

You can't really argue with the math. As for him floating, he could be filling up with hot air or a lighter gas, like helium.

 

[Munomario777]

You can't really argue with the math. As for him floating, he could be filling up with hot air or a lighter gas, like helium.

Your density approximation was based on the fact that he isn't buoyant in water, and he is (at least in Superstar). Kirby isn't inhaling hot air or anything; he's just breathing in and floating.

 

[Nerdicon]

Your density approximation was based on the fact that he isn't buoyant in water, and he is (at least in Superstar). Kirby isn't inhaling hot air or anything; he's just breathing in and floating.

No he's not, without swimming he sinks in water meaning he is denser than water. He needs a little lifesaver on to float above the water in Kirby's Return to Dreamland. When he flies, the air he breathes in could be heated by his body (he can after all survive in space without freezing) or he could keep a storage of gas (again, he can float in space). Not to mention he flaps his little arms to generate a little more lift.

 

[BaganSmashBros]

No he's not, without swimming he sinks in water meaning he is denser than water. He needs a little lifesaver on to float above the water in Kirby's Return to Dreamland. When he flies, the air he breathes in could be heated by his body (he can after all survive in space without freezing) or he could keep a storage of gas (again, he can float in space). Not to mention he flaps his little arms to generate a little more lift.

Sonic, Mario, DK, etc. can survive in space without freezing, dieing due to lack of oxygen, etc. too. Keep in mind that Kirby games aren't exactly serious and are more like a cartoon for small kids (ignoring those abominations at the end of games that really feel out-of-place, especially 02), so, f*** science and even logic.

I think i'll have enough time tomorrow to give votes for various rules and quote large posts.

 

[Crystanium]

So the weak spot would be a non-issue, and Beast Ganon would be protected from Samus's darkburst.

Assuming Ganondorf was in his beast form, which he isn't.

There's no vaporization happening until the boss is defeated, though.

They just explode.

I don't know of any birds that fly by inhaling. I dunno though. Kirby just doesn't seem like he would weight nine pounds (especially with his rather slow fall speed).

There aren't any birds that fly by inhaling, but think of it this way. A hot air balloon is heavier than 9.69 pounds (Kirby's actual weight from the calculation by Nerdicon), but there are mechanisms that allow it to float. From what Nerdicon post, that's assuming a density of 1 g/cm^3, which is pretty reasonable itself, considering humans can sink and swim. So maybe 2.37 kilograms of TNT will do. It's unfortunate the camera person failed to capture the explosion well, but here's 1 kg. of TNT.

I've been reminded of Kirby 64, however. When I had the dynamite ability, that was a weapon to be feared. Honestly, I almost killed myself using it, due to its high power and range. I wish I remembered to crouch to protect myself. Anyway, from what it seems, there's three sticks of dynamite in a bundle when Kirby throws it. A stick of dynamite produces about 1 megajoule, so that's 3 megajoules, or 0.72 kilograms of TNT. This is lesser than crash, but that's to be expected.

If we're using Kirby's mass of 4.39 kilograms instead, and if we consider Kirby's jet ability, which allows him to travel briefly at Mach 5, then he would be producing a force of 7,534.14 newtons, or 1,693.75 pounds-force (84.69% of a short ton).

 

[Munomario777]

No he's not, without swimming he sinks in water meaning he is denser than water. He needs a little lifesaver on to float above the water in Kirby's Return to Dreamland. When he flies, the air he breathes in could be heated by his body (he can after all survive in space without freezing) or he could keep a storage of gas (again, he can float in space). Not to mention he flaps his little arms to generate a little more lift.

Hmm, that's odd. I could have sworn it was Penguin Mario controls (float stationary normally, and hold a direction to swim) in Superstar.

Assuming Ganondorf was in his beast form, which he isn't.

Why not?

They just explode.

Not after one use of Crash, though.

There aren't any birds that fly by inhaling, but think of it this way. A hot air balloon is heavier than 9.69 pounds (Kirby's actual weight from the calculation by Nerdicon), but there are mechanisms that allow it to float. From what Nerdicon post, that's assuming a density of 1 g/cm^3, which is pretty reasonable itself, considering humans can sink and swim. So maybe 2.37 kilograms of TNT will do. It's unfortunate the camera person failed to capture the explosion well, but here's 1 kg. of TNT.

I've been reminded of Kirby 64, however. When I had the dynamite ability, that was a weapon to be feared. Honestly, I almost killed myself using it, due to its high power and range. I wish I remembered to crouch to protect myself. Anyway, from what it seems, there's three sticks of dynamite in a bundle when Kirby throws it. A stick of dynamite produces about 1 megajoule, so that's 3 megajoules, or 0.72 kilograms of TNT. This is lesser than crash, but that's to be expected.

If we're using Kirby's mass of 4.39 kilograms instead, and if we consider Kirby's jet ability, which allows him to travel briefly at Mach 5, then he would be producing a force of 7,534.14 newtons, or 1,693.75 pounds-force (84.69% of a short ton).

I see. Out of curiosity, how much force does Crash use based solely on the visuals? It would be nice to know if that and the "vaporization" description matched up.

 

[Kirby Dragons]

And the opponent could chase him.

Most of said opponents wouldn't be fast enough to catch him.

Oh, I did bring that up. I meant whatever you meant when you were talking about Special Defense.

That's actually Light Screen.

Similarly, I could say that the technique of Protect is putting up the barrier, not the barrier itself.

Then the technique is putting up the barrier, not the actual barrier itself.

That was specifically designed to harness Chaos Energy, and didn't actually damage Sonic (which Mega Drain does to Pokemon).

If it was specifically designed to harness Chaos Energy, why did it keep draining Sonic's energy after it was all gone?

I'm also going to bring up another example. Springs can work on Super Sonic.

Super Sonic's invincibility and Protect's invincibility are similar. Protect's limited function is irrelevant.

Better yet, Super Sonic's invincibility and Protect (not its invincibility, because Protect is invincibility) are similar. One attribute to one power.

• Leaves him wide open, and he wouldn't catch Sonic
• Sonic is too fast, plus Chaos Control
• Sonic is too fast for the laser
• Sonic is too fast

Kirby can use Magic to summon the (light speed) Meta Knight, so he could grab on, hitch a ride, and use said attacks.

• Via which method?

His arms.

M'kay.

And concrete has never been in its path, so we can't assume that it could destroy it.

Yet, concrete would be in its path now, and Ultra Sword destroys everything in its path, concrete is a part of everything, so there's no reason why it wouldn't.

A frying pan =/= a large clown helicopter with a giant turtle sitting on it.

It wasn't that he can lift a frying pan, it was that he can throw the pan miles and miles and miles and miles and miles and miles and miles away. Then it turns around and comes miles and miles and miles and miles and miles and miles and miles back. Kirby is ridiculously strong, so that clown car comes off easy.

Does he have any decent mobility while performing this?

No, but it's instant, so there's no time to dodge (and he's not actually in stone form like I thought he was. His fist is in stone form, so he could use it for blocking).

Is this reflected in gameplay?

See 2:58. Also, 7:30 for chopping a volcano in half.

Also, if neither Ultra Sword nor picking up the clown car work (which they will), Kirby can just teleport out (18:00).

And another comes behind him.

He inhales that one too.

M'kay. I'll wait for that, then.

I didn't actually see the scene you were talking about. Timestamp?

No. My point is, Sonic and Knuckles likely don't have the same power level; one is stronger than the other. However, Sonic can beat Knuckles, and Knuckles can beat Sonic. One of these instances has a weaker character defeating a stronger character.

Actually, neither of those instances has a weaker character beating a stronger character. Unless Sonic becomes Super Sonic, he is not more powerful than Knuckles, and they are pretty much on the same level.

Bowser can do this. Mario cannot.

So because Mario doesn't have one of Bowser's powers, that means Bowser is more powerful? In that case, Olimar is more powerful than Mario, because Mario doesn't have the power of Pikmin.

Also, Mario does have that power. Mega Mushroom + Fire Orb.

And? It's a weaker thing beating a stronger thing.

Being weak or strong doesn't actually mean anything in a race.

He's smaller and weaker than the majority of his opponents.

If Little Mac was weaker than his opponents, he wouldn't beat them in a boxing match. And smaller doesn't equal less powerful.

Okay, feel free to list them then.

So you want me to list a bajillion attacks? Give me suggestions, and I'll list them.

I'm talking about the technique from Sonic Adventure 2's multiplayer mode; I'm not sure what you're referring to.

Oh, I was mistaken for something else.

But Pichus can beat Pikachus. Pikachus are stronger, yet they can still lose.

Even if they lose some of the time, Pikachus are considered able to beat Pichus, however, and they do most of the time. If someone wonders who would win between Pikachu and Pichu, everyone would say Pikachu.

 

[Munomario777]

Most of said opponents wouldn't be fast enough to catch him.

Wheel moves slowly enough for a few characters to catch Kirby. Remember, the scale is smaller since Kirby is smaller.

That's actually Light Screen.

Light Screen, then.

Then the technique is putting up the barrier, not the actual barrier itself.

Same for Super Sonic.

If it was specifically designed to harness Chaos Energy, why did it keep draining Sonic's energy after it was all gone?

The part after the Emeralds were extracted was Sonic turning into a Werehog, which is a result of Dark Gaia being awakened, not the machine itself.

I'm also going to bring up another example. Springs can work on Super Sonic.

And?

Better yet, Super Sonic's invincibility and Protect (not its invincibility, because Protect is invincibility) are similar. One attribute to one power.

Protect's invincibility and Sonic's invincibility are similar. Since invincibility is the only relevant factor here, I see no issue.

Kirby can use Magic to summon the (light speed) Meta Knight, so he could grab on, hitch a ride, and use said attacks.

Magic is one-time-use, and only has a chance of summoning Meta Knight. And even then, he just slashes at the enemies on screen.

His arms.

Has he picked up something that large, spiky, quickly spinning, etc. before?

View attachment 48139
View attachment 48140

A Super Missile explosion is larger than that.

Yet, concrete would be in its path now, and Ultra Sword destroys everything in its path, concrete is a part of everything, so there's no reason why it wouldn't.

Until you provide an example of the Ultra Sword burrowing through concrete, we can pass this off as hyperbole.

It wasn't that he can lift a frying pan, it was that he can throw the pan miles and miles and miles and miles and miles and miles and miles away. Then it turns around and comes miles and miles and miles and miles and miles and miles and miles back. Kirby is ridiculously strong, so that clown car comes off easy.

Has Kirby lifted an object of this size before?

No, but it's instant, so there's no time to dodge (and he's not actually in stone form like I thought he was. His fist is in stone form, so he could use it for blocking).

You don't need to dodge if you're already at a decent distance. Since Kirby is vulnerable during this, it leaves him wide open for an attack.

See 2:58. Also, 7:30 for chopping a volcano in half.

Mario could likely survive this, because he can survive lava balls.

Chopping something in half =/= burrowing through it to escape.

Also, if neither Ultra Sword nor picking up the clown car work (which they will), Kirby can just teleport out (18:00).

He only teleported a short distance, and the Clown Car seems to be rather thick. Plus, there's a bit of a delay, and the Invincibility Candy would likely be almost out by then (so Bowser could then start attacking).

He inhales that one too.

He can't turn around while inhaling.

I didn't actually see the scene you were talking about. Timestamp?

It goes down it a bit at 18:50.

Actually, neither of those instances has a weaker character beating a stronger character. Unless Sonic becomes Super Sonic, he is not more powerful than Knuckles, and they are pretty much on the same level.

I doubt that they're the exact same.

So because Mario doesn't have one of Bowser's powers, that means Bowser is more powerful? In that case, Olimar is more powerful than Mario, because Mario doesn't have the power of Pikmin.

Bowser is much more powerful than Small Mario (Small Mario can jump and run; Bowser can break through an entire castle), and yet the latter defeated the former. Feel free to prove that Small Mario is stronger than Bowser in that fight.

Also, Mario does have that power. Mega Mushroom + Fire Orb.

He doesn't have those in the battle against Bowser, though.

Being weak or strong doesn't actually mean anything in a race.

If your vehicle is faster in a race, you're more likely to win a race.

If Little Mac was weaker than his opponents, he wouldn't beat them in a boxing match. And smaller doesn't equal less powerful.

You're using circular reasoning here.

So you want me to list a bajillion attacks? Give me suggestions, and I'll list them.

Let's see. There's turning into a razor-sharp spinning ball and homing in on Kirby at light speed, using the Boost to bust through him, ranged wind attacks, freezing time, and teleportation, to name a few.

Oh, I was mistaken for something else.

No worries.

Even if they lose some of the time, Pikachus are considered able to beat Pichus, however, and they do most of the time. If someone wonders who would win between Pikachu and Pichu, everyone would say Pikachu.

You're saying that it is impossible. If it can be done, it is not impossible. Pichus can beat Pikachus, so it is not impossible.

 

[ShadowLBlue]

Probably well over 1000.

Seems right. She shouldn't need that many.

If they don't heal that much, then I think it's not that great a choice.

Options never hurt.

I don't think it would allow him to survive a black hole from Rosalina, but he probably should be higher. Should Lucina be able to use the Darksphere as well?

No, because the Falchion, Sword of Shields and the gems have all weakened (the former 2 were broken and had to be reforged) making them weaker, justifying why they lack the same abilities. Also, fyi, the darksphere (none of the gems actually) don't work while fused in the Sword of Shields.

Earlier in the thread, we did determine that any of Mewtwo's psionics (even the attacks) would work on Super Sonic.

Well, I remember we excluded psychic attacks that don't attack the brain directly (ex: confusion) but yea

It's faster than any known speed from the roster.

Ship is completely exposed in the few seconds it takes her to get into the ship and get it moving.
Also...

Well, it's clear in Metroid Prime 3: Corruption and Metroid: Other M that setting a destination is how the gunship works for FTL travel. The speed would have to be slower than 11.2 km/s to stop in time, but the mass of the gunship would still make up for the lack of speed.

But my point is there's a difference in setting a destination for a planet or city than setting one for an area so small she can't even enter something like longitude and latitude.

I always imagined in games like Castlevania: Symphony of the Night with the red skeletons that if you held onto the skull or some other bone, it would disrupt the reformation of the skeleton.

IDK, but I gave an example of something harmful that's not fatal.

That's because bosses are larger. That has nothing to do with health.

There are bosses small enough for it to work on. If it can suck on an aerotrooper, it should be able to suck in Dark Samus. (granted, she moves a lot)

But I already made it clear that Link is a human. He's referred to as such in TP and SS.

This has nothing to do with what I said, I think you posted the wrong response. We were talking about Skyrim.
Reposting my response to skyrim humans not dying from a flaming arrow NOT being an example of HP:
A) You're comparing humans to non-humans.
B) More importantly, if I'm not mistaken, in Skyrim, enemy's body parts aren't coded to receive specific damage so that's a better explanation than that they survive do to having HP. (i.e. how in some games like Resident evil 4 if you shoot an enemy in the head enough times it's head might explode. Also, if you shoot them in the leg, they'll temporarily be unable to walk.) So that example doesn't work in that case.

 

[Crystanium]

Why not?

Because his incarnation from SSBB and SSB4 is his human form.

Not after one use of Crash, though.

I really wish I had my copy of Kirby Returns to Dreamland to test crash out.

I see. Out of curiosity, how much force does Crash use based solely on the visuals? It would be nice to know if that and the "vaporization" description matched up.

We wouldn't use force. We would use joules. I'm not sure how much crash does. I think instead of working with Kirby, we should move onto the next largest enemy who can be killed in one hit and try to find the amount of energy required to kill it. You and I both know that textual data doesn't always match up with visual data. In terms of hierarchy, textual evidence would be above visual evidence.

Ship is completely exposed in the few seconds it takes her to get into the ship and get it moving.

Said ship took a beating from Ghor.

But my point is there's a difference in setting a destination for a planet or city than setting one for an area so small she can't even enter something like longitude and latitude.

We don't know that. If it's an issue, though, she'll just need to travel at a reasonable speed that can stop with enough time to be less than ten miles.

IDK, but I gave an example of something harmful that's not fatal.

But it's not harmful because there's no injury.

There are bosses small enough for it to work on. If it can suck on an aerotrooper, it should be able to suck in Dark Samus. (granted, she moves a lot)

It should be able to, but the game isn't programmed that way. The sonic boom is programmed around the battle against Dark Samus, however, and is balanced, according to Mark Pacini. If you want me to cite this again (as I did before), I'll be more than happy to. The reality of it would be that the darkburst would have a hard time hitting Dark Samus because of speed and the darkburst is noted for its slow speed.

This has nothing to do with what I said, I think you posted the wrong response. We were talking about Skyrim.
Reposting my response to skyrim humans not dying from a flaming arrow NOT being an example of HP:
A) You're comparing humans to non-humans.
B) More importantly, if I'm not mistaken, in Skyrim, enemy's body parts aren't coded to receive specific damage so that's a better explanation than that they survive do to having HP. (i.e. how in some games like Resident evil 4 if you shoot an enemy in the head enough times it's head might explode. Also, if you shoot them in the leg, they'll temporarily be unable to walk.) So that example doesn't work in that case.

You're right, it has nothing to do with what you said because what you said about Skyrim being programmed a certain way is not what I'm addressing. You addressed that point that I brought up, so I disregarded my argument concerning that because I have no counter-argument. However, it doesn't change the fact that Link and Ganondorf have been referred to as humans. Here are some possibilities for the reason or reasons why they're called humans.

• Hylians and Gerudos have humanoid features.
• Hylians and Gerudos are mortals, hence, it's referring to their mortality
• Hylians and Gerudos fall under the genus of hominids such as Homo sapiens, Homo neanderthalensis, Homo erectus, Homo habilis, &c.

These three are not mutually exclusive. I really like the last possibility, though. Heart containers are just life energy, though. That's all they are. They can be increased by collecting heart pieces or heart containers, but all they represent is life energy. Whether or not you want to understand that as ki is entirely up to you.