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What's some powerful IC tech that people have yet to implement?

cupofwater

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I know that the first thing that comes to mind for most of us would be pivot desyncs, but what are some other techs that most players don't use? Where is the potential in these techs?
 

Dairdevil

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Whenever I see the the top 4 ICs play, their desyncs seem somewhat short, to me. Wobbles as a half-exception, I see the top climbers play the neutral around 80% synced, with desyncs sprinkled here and there. Now, I don't play competitive matches much at all, and I have no idea how feasible this would be or what it would look like implemented, but I often ponder the possibilities of an ICs neutral consistent of 50%+ desyncs. IC aren't known for their potent neutral game, but perhaps extended desyncs are a possible solution. I know this isn't really an IC "tech" but still an idea that I haven't seen implemented ever, but I think about it often.
 

DerfMidWest

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SOFA#941
Wether or not it's good to do extended desyncs really depends on the matchup. Like against spacies for example (which you see most often) it's usually better to remain synced in neutral except for in very specific situations just because desyncing is not always safe.

Recently I've been in the lab a lot, the big ones I'm starting to make central to my play are pivot desyncs (which people are starting to explore now thanks to wobble's stream I guess), ftilt desyncs (and smooth transitions into them i.e. from ac bair), empty short hop desyncs, and l-cancel desyncs (which nobody really uses for some reason).
Mostly just variations of these as I try to eliminate the more lazy and punishable ones (roll/spotdodge) from my play.

the obvious unexplored one with a lot of potential that comes to mind is the instant jump desync that fly discovered a few months ago. It's an incredibly powerful desync, but as of now I don't think anyone is able to do it consistently at this point in time.

Others are things like platform drop (specifically shield drop) desyncs, which I started playing around with a few months ago, and things like solo-squall OoS, which has been around forever, but not many ICs seem to implement (myself included).

Other than that, there isn't much that comes to mind aside from super specific stuff. I've been having a lot of fun with FoD platforms lately, but nothing super practical right now.

For the most part, I feel one of the major problems most ICs run into is that they don't develop strong movement games and focus too much on being stationary desync wall/grab monsters, which really ends up wrecking them in the long run.
 

Vanitas

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Recently I've been in the lab a lot, the big ones I'm starting to make central to my play are pivot desyncs (which people are starting to explore now thanks to wobble's stream I guess), ftilt desyncs (and smooth transitions into them i.e. from ac bair), empty short hop desyncs, and l-cancel desyncs (which nobody really uses for some reason).
The L-Cancel desync is when you purposely fail to do Nana's L-cancel after an aerial correct? I definitely have difficulty practicing that one, how do you practice it?
 

DerfMidWest

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The L-Cancel desync is when you purposely fail to do Nana's L-cancel after an aerial correct? I definitely have difficulty practicing that one, how do you practice it?
yeah it's pretty hard. I just try to L-cancel super early. It's easiest with Fair (I actually don't know how well it works with the others, it might not be possible with some) it's something I'm trying to play around with because I think it's really good, but it's not one I'm super consistent with yet.
It does have a lot of limitations too since popo acts first and the actionable window isn't huge, but I can see some practical applications for it.
Like there's some stuff with fair on shields and some other weird specific things like that I want to experiment with more.
In a lot of positions I'd rather go for empty ff desyncs or pivot stuff though.
 

KingKirb

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I think one of the best techs for ice climbers is the pivot desynch. It's quicker than any other desynch (at least, it's quicker than the spotdodge, roll, dashdance, and landing desync), and it lets popo throw out a smash attack while nana does a blizzard, then popo can wavedash in for a grab. It's so sick. I've been putting a heavy emphasis on learning pivot desync because I think it's the future.
 

Smasher89

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I think ive been able to desynch from getting jabhits, but cant really do it consistently so not sure if thats the way.

To further ICs metagame desynched backairs is one decently underexplored thing, since it requires fast movement, but sin ce people are adjusting to keep the desynchgame up that might be the next technical step forward.
 

DerfMidWest

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SOFA#941
I think ive been able to desynch from getting jabhits, but cant really do it consistently so not sure if thats the way.

To further ICs metagame desynched backairs is one decently underexplored thing, since it requires fast movement, but sin ce people are adjusting to keep the desynchgame up that might be the next technical step forward.
like making one climber go into hitstun and desyncing off that?
wobbles has been playing with desync ac bairs lately. I'm not really sold on them 100% yet, but they seem irritating to deal with.
 

Kyu Puff

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yeah it's pretty hard. I just try to L-cancel super early. It's easiest with Fair (I actually don't know how well it works with the others, it might not be possible with some) it's something I'm trying to play around with because I think it's really good, but it's not one I'm super consistent with yet.
It does have a lot of limitations too since popo acts first and the actionable window isn't huge, but I can see some practical applications for it.
Like there's some stuff with fair on shields and some other weird specific things like that I want to experiment with more.
In a lot of positions I'd rather go for empty ff desyncs or pivot stuff though.
I thought the l-cancel is supposed to be late? If you input it late Nana will try to l-cancel after she's already landed... (I could be wrong here; I only know the timing intuitively so I'm not sure whether it's earlier or later than my normal l-cancel.)

I can actually do the l-cancel desynch with near 100% consistency but I haven't really implemented it into my game. I practiced it a while back as a possible shield break set-up (you can late b-air someone's shield into desynched d-smashes or d-air). Speaking of which...

http://smashboards.com/threads/ice-climbers-shield-pressure.280913/

I don't think the timings in that thread are entirely accurate (I believe b-air starts on frame 8, rather than frame 11) but it shouldn't affect the frame advantage/dead frame calculations. B-air (landing or auto-cancel) -> d-smash is the easiest, and in some ways most effective form of shield pressure, but I can see late b-air -> desynched d-smashes being effective once your opponent catches on (and tries to wait out the d-smash). A true 20ice-ice strategy would be late b-air -> (l-cancel desynch) -> desynched auto-cancel b-airs, which is almost as good as multishining (but almost impossible to execute from what I can tell).


Various desynch techniques which are fast and effective but nobody really uses:

- Pivot desynchs (including pivot -> jump -> blizzard/ice block)
- Run backwards desynch (including immediate Nana f-smash, or delayed Nana blizzard)
- As well as dash attack backwards (causes Nana to charge f-smash, possible grab setup)

Will add more as I think of it.
 

DerfMidWest

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I thought the l-cancel is supposed to be late? If you input it late Nana will try to l-cancel after she's already landed... (I could be wrong here; I only know the timing intuitively so I'm not sure whether it's earlier or later than my normal l-cancel.)

I can actually do the l-cancel desynch with near 100% consistency but I haven't really implemented it into my game. I practiced it a while back as a possible shield break set-up (you can late b-air someone's shield into desynched d-smashes or d-air). Speaking of which...
you can do both. I really like L-canceling with only popo because if you grab directly out of it, it's a wobble setup. There are applications to either one.

Various desynch techniques which are fast and effective but nobody really uses:

- Pivot desynchs (including pivot -> jump -> blizzard/ice block)
- Run backwards desynch (including immediate Nana f-smash, or delayed Nana blizzard)
- As well as dash attack backwards (causes Nana to charge f-smash, possible grab setup)

Will add more as I think of it.
Rofl I love all of these, I've been playing with them a lot lately. with the backwards dash attack, you can keep charging the fsmash and depending on their DI, you can fsmash->grab at low percents on FFers. It's great.
 

Kyu Puff

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you can do both. I really like L-canceling with only popo because if you grab directly out of it, it's a wobble setup. There are applications to either one.
When I do the late l-cancel it causes Popo to act first. I'll try the early one and see what happens (might just be the same).

Rofl I love all of these, I've been playing with them a lot lately. with the backwards dash attack, you can keep charging the fsmash and depending on their DI, you can fsmash->grab at low percents on FFers. It's great.
It's pretty funny. If they try to punish the dash attack from a horizontal angle you can release the f-smash to protect yourself during at least part of the lag. If you manage to land the f-smash while your opponent is on the ground (or on shield), you can follow up with a grab versus anybody.
 
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DerfMidWest

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It's possible to act first with nana. I'll have to play around with it more.

and yeah the fsmash is so good for covering the dash attack, its a fun bait.
 

Vanitas

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It's possible to act first with nana. I'll have to play around with it more.

and yeah the fsmash is so good for covering the dash attack, its a fun bait.
Just bumping this back up.
I managed to find the timing for the fair l-cancel desync and it's super neat. However, Popo is the one that acts first. Is it possible to share some insight on visual or audio cues you go by? Having Nana act first in this would be incredibly useful.
 

DerfMidWest

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I have to double check the nana thing, because now im questioning it (i know Ive done things like that before, and its been mentioned, but w/e)
It should just be input l cancel the frame popo lands, nana recieves it right before she lands and gets the l cancel, then input something immediately as nana comes out of lag.
Im going to check to see if this actually works, because its been talked about before, but I want to confirm
 

DerfMidWest

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Thanks fly! What Im questioning is whether or not nana would actually exit landing lag in time for it to work.
(to be clear, I'm talking specifically about fair here, since it might be the only aerial this would be possible with due to how much landing lag it has)

Popo would have 20 frames of landing lag, nana would land 6 frames later and have 10 (popo has 14 left) so thats a 4 frame window if you time the Lcancel perfectly, but nana's position may come into play a little more in practice.
 
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Kyu Puff

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When I do the l-cancel desynch after a whiffed aerial, Popo consistently moves first. However, when I practiced incorporating it into shield pressure (late b-air -> l-cancel desynch), there seemed to be a fairly large window for inputting the l-cancel and having Nana move first. In order to get Popo to move, the timing was strict and delayed (probably due to hitlag).
 

DerfMidWest

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If it were to work, it would be a 1 frame window to miss the L-cancel with popo and still get it with nana, so it could just be that you missed this window, but it could also just not be a thing.
I hadn't really thought of using hitlag to increase that window though, so that's really good to know.
You could probably do some dumb stuff like use low-flying shyguys on yoshi's to set up a desync like that, or hit peach's turnips or some other super specific things like that.
 

Kyu Puff

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when it happens with nana i think it's when i input too early. i still have no idea what causes it... possibly contortions due to their aerial animation make them hit the ground 1 frame apart?
 

DerfMidWest

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when it happens with nana i think it's when i input too early. i still have no idea what causes it... possibly contortions due to their aerial animation make them hit the ground 1 frame apart?
it could be when you space so that only popo is hitting something (thus being the only one in hitlag).
Or possibly something to do with the way that hitting a shield already in stun acts?
I'm really unsure about that one.
 

Kyu Puff

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it could be when you space so that only popo is hitting something (thus being the only one in hitlag).
Or possibly something to do with the way that hitting a shield already in stun acts?
I'm really unsure about that one.
I did a little bit of testing today, got Nana to l-cancel alone once after a whiffed aerial, but I couldn't recreate it (using what I believed to be the same inputs and savestates...) I'll try to test a little bit more later.
 
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Vanitas

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I tried varying the timing on the L-cancel, and it was possible to get Nana to act first but it was extremely hard to replicate. I'm going to guess the window to do it is extremely tight or it might have been a hitlag desynch.
 
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