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What makes My Little Pony Friendship is Magic appeal to an older age group?

Discussion in 'Debate Hall' started by Dragoon Fighter, May 2, 2011.

  1. Dragoon Fighter

    Dragoon Fighter Smash Debater

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    ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Preface
    ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------​

    There has been a rise in the popularity of a show that comes from a series traditionally aimed at little girls. The My Little Pony Series. The newest installment however has had a substantial rise in the viewers, because of the new amount of people who find the new show to be entertaining (Source). As a matter of fact a majority of online viewers who visit equestiradaily are around the age of 17-19 and males (Source1)(Source2).

    ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    The Debate
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    Now there are some people who claim that the only reason that this show became popular is because it became an internet meme (Source showing its meme status). Others say it is one of the best cartoons america had in quite some time. There are people who commonly hate on this show and its fans (As described in the previous source).

    The Debate is... What is the appeal of My Little Pony: Friendship is Magic, especially to the teenage group watching this show? Is it a "cool""Trendy" or "Hipster" thing to like this show? Is it popular only because it is an internet meme? Is it because the show has amazing character development and great animation? It is a combination of any of the above, or even something I left out completely?

    My thanks to BPC for being the inspiration behind this debate.

    Note to Debaters and Temp. Debaters: Even given the subject at hand, I would like to please remind everyone to carry out the debate just as seriously as you would carry out any other debate.
  2. Budget Player Cadet_

    Budget Player Cadet_ Smash Debater

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    You didn't. You ****ing didn't. That was a joke in the social, man. :laugh:

    To be honest, I think one of the biggest things that this show has is that it's, well, not too girly. Think about this for a moment. It's girly, sure, but it's not too girly.

    One hypothesis brought up on 4chan that I feel worth noting is that this is one of the very rare cases of a TV show that lets us get in touch with our girly side... without being utter trash. I mean, think about it. Barbie movies are made-for-TV crap with pathetic writing and ripped-off storylines (not to mention grotesque animation). Things like the Bratz TV show are so clearly created to market their toys (with absolutely horrible writing) that it's almost painful to watch.

    My Little Pony, on the other hand, provides this "girly" side, but at the same time manages to present it in a way that doesn't make my eyes want to crawl out of my skull and strangle my ears. The characters are interesting and at least moderately deep. Sure, they all have that one strong defining characteristic, but there's more to it than that (refer to Dragonshy, A Party for One, and The Stare Master for good examples of what I'm talking about). The dialogue is at times incredibly witty, and the storylines are well-mapped overall; it's a well-polished work. The animation style is simple but very elegant and good-looking. It features actual conflict, and is in no way dumbed down or made overly pathetic (here's looking at you, most shows based on a series of dolls). And finally, what I find very important? They don't fall into the "every episode is the same" trap that made shows like Pokemon (how long is "team rocket's blasting off agaaaaaiiiiin" supposed to be funny or interesting?) a bore to watch after more than a season.

    Also, anyone remember Powerpuff Girls? Yeah. That was kickass. This is kickass for a lot of the same reasons.
  3. Battlecow

    Battlecow Play to Win

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    Dudes are getting progressively gayer and gayer.
  4. Dragoon Fighter

    Dragoon Fighter Smash Debater

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    Battlecow in his own words.

    Anyway I doubt gayness is as common among the community as you might suggest, there is plenty of counter that implies they are strait such as the many fan fics that portray Rainbow Dash as a lesbian getting it on with the other girls, or the like depicted in fan art. Also there are some epic manly things in the art archive too, but with ponies. You can see such things for yourself in the equestiradaily art archive.

    Polls like "What is your favorite pony waifu" Indicates singles
    , not gay people.
  5. Battlecow

    Battlecow Play to Win

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    So they're repressing it or else going with a "flow" created by gay dudes.
  6. Dragoon Fighter

    Dragoon Fighter Smash Debater

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    Can you back up your argument with a source? Other wise I must assume that stereotyping which is not a good thing to use in a debate.
  7. GoldShadow

    GoldShadow Marsilea quadrifolia

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    Oh dear, a MLP thread.

    Regardless, do try to keep things civil and non-homophobic.
  8. Battlecow

    Battlecow Play to Win

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    How am I being homophobic? Is saying that accessing one's "girly" or feminine side via glitter/pink/ponies is a behavior generally ascribed particularly to the gay community homophobic? I genuinely view MLPFIM as an indicator of increasing rates of homosexuality among today's young men, hence "dudes are getting progressively gayer and gayer."
  9. Dragoon Fighter

    Dragoon Fighter Smash Debater

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    1) I do not think his comment was aimed at you, but as a general reminder.

    2) Feminine guy/Feminine behavior from guy = Gay Guy is a stereotype. I do believe (Correct me if I am wrong) the logical fallacy you are using is the Package deal fallacy
  10. Battlecow

    Battlecow Play to Win

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    I don't know about these fancy phallus-ies. All I know is that gay men are usually quite feminine, and that as long as I don't assume that a feminine man has to be gay or that a gay man has to be feminine I'm in the clear.
  11. _Keno_

    _Keno_ Smash Debater

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    I'm glad TV/movie portrayals of homosexuals has taught you so much.

    Also, my little pony has a great plot and good comedy, despite being about sparkles, rainbows, and unicorns (or so i hear).
  12. Budget Player Cadet_

    Budget Player Cadet_ Smash Debater

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    Nope. That's another incorrect stereotype.
  13. Ocean

    Ocean Smash Debater

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    [​IMG]
  14. Battlecow

    Battlecow Play to Win

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    Lol u guys assumin' stereotypes aren't true

    Every one of the gay guys I know is noticeably feminine. They even do the weird voice. I don't have any statistics, but from where I stand, it seems obvious. "Usually" implies, what, just more than half? I would bet you dollars to donuts that more than half of all out-of-the-closet gay men are noticeably feminine.
  15. GoldShadow

    GoldShadow Marsilea quadrifolia

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    Battlecow, if you're going to debate, you have to do better than "X number of people I know in my life exhibit Y behavior." Anecdotes do not an argument make.

    Your preconceptions are stereotypes, and they're wrong. Are there gay people that act like what you've described? Sure. Are there tons that don't? You bet your ***.

    Whether you want to believe it or not, such mannerisms are completely separate from sexual orientation. For example, did you know the "gay lisp" really has no scientific or biological backing? It's a culturally influenced, acquired habit; something that filters in because we've been bombarded by the media that gay people act and talk a certain way. There's no such thing; "they" talk the same way "we" do. Some of "them" perhaps acquire it for the aforementioned reasons.

    In fact, you've probably met a lot of gay people in your daily life and not even realized it, because you've internalized the idea that if they're gay, they most likely look or act different. Being homosexual has nothing to do with that, and I suggest you do a little research before you continue making statements in this thread.
  16. Battlecow

    Battlecow Play to Win

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    U mad bro?

    Seriously, though, does saying the word "gay" automatically make people angry? If the cause is liberal enough, does common sense fly out the window? This is laughable. I can't give you studies because "effeminate" is a really subjective term. I realize that anecdotes don't prove anything, but does anyone here have anything better? No. There are tons of gay people that don't act the way I've described? Really? Wow, I'm so surprise- Oh wait, I already acknowledged that twice.

    I lol'd at "gay lisp has no scientific backing" and "we've been bombarded by the media that." Work on those sentences, brah. Anyways, I was not under the impression that the lisp was biological in origin. No doubt many, if not all, of the mannerisms that I associate with the gay community are cultural in origin. I never said otherwise. I like how you assume that I'm some kind of ignorant bigot.

    I also admit that I've probably met lots of gay people in my daily life and not known it. I've also met a substantial number of people in passing who I thought might possibly be homosexual because of the way they talked, acted, etc. Neither of these things prove anything relevant to the argument at hand.

    As for your last paragraph- you're an idiot, my friend. Do you seriously contend that the mannerisms which I see as characteristic of the gay community are all in my head? That being homosexual has nothing to do with "that" (i.e. the aforementioned mannerisms)? You already acknowledged that the "gay lisp" exists, so either you're lying or you changed your mind in between paragraphs. Since neither of us has presented any research, and since there is likely no research which is relevant to this argument, I assume that your last sentence is simply the way you end every self-righteous post.

    Good day to you, sir.
  17. ballin4life

    ballin4life Smash Debater

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    Hi guys,

    Gay is probably correlated with the "gay lisp" but as we all know correlation is not causation, RIGHT?
  18. GoldShadow

    GoldShadow Marsilea quadrifolia

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    Battlecow, I didn't present sources because this is the Proving Grounds and when I pop in here, it's to either maintain order/reorient threads/etc or to bring up points or perspectives related to the thread. I never had any intention of getting into a debate here (when I want to do that, I do it in the Debate Hall), just informing readers and participants in the thread about an issue that previously came up. I don't do the point-counterpoint-source thing in here, which gives a great opportunity for anybody who disagrees with my position to post evidence for their argument (this is the Proving Grounds, and that sort of stuff can net you points for gaining DH entry).

    Heck, sometimes, I like to throw in points to play devil's advocate. If you'd like to, you should start a thread on that topic so you can defend your position (and so that this thread isn't derailed).
  19. Battlecow

    Battlecow Play to Win

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  20. Yhii

    Yhii staggers these vagabonds

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    It has feminine characteristics, and even though I do not watch the series, due to being an internet phenomenon I glanced at a few episodes, or what else was the hype for?

    It does incorporate the same comical, gimmicky, style of older cartoons which is the appeal behind such an effeminate- themed show.

    Other than that, I can't elaborate on why My Little Pony stands out. I don't think it was primarily aimed at an older male audience.
  21. T-block

    T-block B2B TST

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    I think a large amount of My Little Pony's popularity can be attributed to two things. The first is that it became an internet meme; the other is that it is simply a well-written show. The quality of the show is the fuel, while the meme status is the spark. How it attained meme status is beyond me, but there's no doubt that a show like My Little Pony can not obtain the fanbase it has now on quality alone. It also helps that because it has become a meme, people are more likely to openly express a liking for the show, making it more likely for new watchers to express their liking as well. As for quality, the cartoon has fantastic animation, great voice acting, and is legitimately funny at times (I actually laughed out loud several times during episode 20). Plot-wise there's nothing to get excited about, but I think an understanding that it is, after all, a show targetting children combined with a hint of nostalgia make this a non-issue for many.

    Of course, there are likely several reasons, as people take a liking to the show for different reasons, but I'm confident that this explanation covers a decent percentage of the fanbase. It's how I explain my liking for the show in any case.

    Something to note is that I don't feel that the show targets the female audience for the most part. Only when the episode focuses on a fashion show or dress-making am I actually reminded that the franchise is marketed towards girls. It is much more obvious, however, that the show targets a younger audience. I think the aspect of the audience that is interesting is the age, not the sex. It follows that sexual orientation isn't really relevant either.
  22. Battlecow

    Battlecow Play to Win

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    I would disagree. Femininity permeates the show to its very deepest levels- all of the important characters AFAIK (and I haven't watched very much of it, so I might be wrong) are either female or nonthreatening amasculine males. The ponies, by and large, represent aspects and issues that are very broad, but relating to the female; perhaps nowhere is this more obvious than in the portrayal of the yin/yang; that classic, definitive symbol of binary opposition that usually includes the female and the male as one of the most basic opposing pairs- in MLPFiM, however, both light and dark are represented by female horses (A younger and older mare). There are, of course, the more superficial signs of girliness as well; the profusion of purple and pink, and (note well) a plethora of rainbows. The animation is rounded, muted, ever-shifting, and pastel-colored; contrast this to, say, the sharp, defined, phallic edges and bold colors of G.I. Joe or Transformers. Any analysis of the show reveals that while the age group it's aimed at is obviously an aspect of its newfound popularity which makes it strange, the more important and basic alien aspect of its nature to its new audience is its femininity. With this in mind, no conclusion can be arrived at other than one which indicates a nontraditional love of the feminine among its adolescent or post-adolescent male viewers, and therefore obviously indicates real or ironically assumed homosexuality, or else simply memetic "watch what he watches" behavior which stems originally from such homosexuality.
  23. Dragoon Fighter

    Dragoon Fighter Smash Debater

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    To which post are you responding too?

    All the main characters are girls, however some of the issues they deal with are issues we all deal with regardless of age, gender, or race. (Like Dragons for example :p)

    *WARNING SPOILERS IN THE LINK* http://mlp.wikia.com/wiki/Twilight's_Friendship_Reports <--- Collection of the morals of the stories for some of the episodes though out the series

    Now, some of them, for the standards of the culture we are from, are Girly for example the moral of Episode 19, the episode in which rarity gets kidnapped by the diamond dogs. The majority of the morals however are vague enough to be applied to a lot of people.

    Indeed, the creator of the show said herself she was aiming the show at children and their parents (Including male parents.)

    Why is pink and purple girly, is that a subjective or objective statement you are making?

    Also Rainbows are ****ing manly and you better believe it.

    Alright why does one have to be gay or adopting of gay behavior as you explain it to possibly be, cause one to enjoy girly things in our culture? No where in the definition of homosexuality does it say that it causes one to enjoy girly things. (Source)

    As for your main argument as to why the show appeals to a some members of the older male demographic, I am not entirely sure of your point, I have a good idea of what you are trying to say, but I wish a clarification as I am slightly worried I could be misunderstanding your position.
  24. Battlecow

    Battlecow Play to Win

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    The post was in response to T-block's. I'm not going to "explain" it, because it doesn't need clarification. In response to your points-

    - Whether or not the issues discussed are broad, the presence solely of female characters indicates that it does "target the female audience," contrary to T-block's assertion.

    - Pink and purple are not objectively girly. Duh. I shouldn't have to explain this, but they are CONSIDERED to be girly by our culture and therefore symbols of the feminine, which shows that the show is meant to appeal to females.

    -
    *struggles to be polite*

    The question of whether or not something is true cannot be universally settled by a look at the dictionary. Please do not use this tactic. It is very, very stupid. One does not, of course, "have to be gay to enjoy girly things." I did not say that my argument covered one hundred percent of all viewers of girly shows. I am positing, as I said in the post, that this "nontraditional love of the feminine" indicates "real or ironically assumed homosexuality." Culturally, we always have associated homosexuality with a nontraditional love of the feminine- see any gay stereotype (and to quote a cliché, "stereotypes are there for a reason"- that is, while not all gay people conform to stereotypes, many do).
  25. ph00tbag

    ph00tbag C(ϾᶘϿ)Ͻ

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    I've always felt that one of the show's greatest strengths, at least in appealing to me, is that, contrary to some of the above posts, it challenges the stereotypes of what "girly" means, rather than enforce traditional gender roles. Make no mistake, the show is definitely created with little girls in mind. Slumber parties, dresses, make-overs and adorable things all rear their frilly, perfumed heads with more frequency than cartoons aimed at little boys or at no gender in particular. But then, I've yet to see a girl's cartoon present the protagonists with real danger, such as dragons or hydras, and even physical violence. So if girliness comprises such things as well, then I suppose the show is girly. I suppose you could even say the mane characters act girly, in that they have as varied and opposing interests and personality traits as real girls and women. But that's where the show actually challenges what we think of when we think of girly things.

    Case in point, Rainbow Dash is at first blush the athlete archetype. The G3 equivalent would be Scootaloo. But the similarity really ends at them being athletes. G3 Scoot is only an athlete inasmuchas she is seen doing active things more often than the other ponies. Otherwise, she has the exact same relationship with each pony that each other pony has with each other pony. That is to say, the relationship between any two ponies could be lined up with the relationship between any other two ponies, and they would match completely. Moreover, G3 Scootaloo's proclivity for sports doesn't preclude her from participating in even the girliest of activities. Contrast with Rainbow Dash, who first off has totally unique relationships to every pony, which are not repeated between any other two ponies. She also has very little patience for any activity that does not relate to physical activity or competition. So slumber parties and dress-up are out.

    I could go on with every member of the mane cast, but that would get tiresome. What it comes down to is that the show isn't just some vapid sideshow of how many times the same character can be recolored and given a shallow "interest." Most shows that are of this type are considered "girly." And that's the real problem there. "Girly" automatically has negative connotations because of those shows. The fact that each character in My Little Pony Friendship is Magic is their own person, while still being girl's show protagonists makes the show singular among girl's shows, because being girly is now pretty darn cool, especially when it means you can kick a dragon in the face and still be seen as one of the girls. I consider myself to be a feminist, and so a show that says this appeals to me on an ideological level.

    ----------------------

    But not everyone that enjoys the show is drawn in by the whole girl power appeal of the show. And let's not forget that a huge, overwhelming majority of the online viewership is male, so it's not like this audience is particularly empowered by the show's message. I do think, however, that the ultimate appeal of the show is rooted in a similar concept. But coming to that point in enjoying the show is a process.

    First off, a very, very small minority of the show's adult male audience started out sold on the whole idea of actually tuning in every Friday to watch a show made for little girls, or generating actual original content based on the show. Most of them started out with some degree of skepticism. With most people who watch the show, something blows that skepticism out of the water. What does this is usually one of three things, or maybe two or all three. For one thing, the show is astonishingly well-animated, especially considering that flash (which is what all of the show's animation is done in) is usually associated with lazily produced, low-quality mini-games and animated shorts. And moreover, it's a welcome break from the animation in most other shows out there today, especially the crappy 3D model animated trash that's been showing up with troubling frequency. Second, the aforementioned character diversity. Not only is this appealing, from a literary standpoint, to the more educated adult audience, but it also ensures that one character or another will endear themself to a new viewer almost immediately, which in some cases is enough to get some people hooked for life. The final reason is nostalgia. The show downright lifts whole sequences from the Looney Toons, and in general feels like old Nicktoons, back before the only good Nicktoon was Spongebob. For some, the show just makes them feel like a kid again.

    Some people may have their skepticism defeated by one of these qualities of the show, but it may not be enough for them to get over the sense that, somewhere deep down, they feel self-conscious about watching a show for little girls. But what seems to win these people over is the fact that there is a massive community of people who are reassuring you that just because you watch a show for little girls, it doesn't make you less of a man. While this community extols the show's ability to bestow lessons in an entertaining way, one of the biggest lessons the community seems to have taken from the show is: if "girly" can mean whatever a girl wants it to mean, then why can't I decide what "manly" means for myself. Indeed, one catch-phrase of bronies is, "MLPFiM is a manly show for manly men," a claim that would be absurd if one were letting cultural norms dictate what it means to be a man. The position appeals to those adult men who chaffed under the imposition of what it meant to be male in America. They weren't athletic, or they liked fashion, or they liked adorable things. Even though these young men were straight, they may have at one point been called gay or *** simply because of their inclinations. The fact that the MLPFiM community is saying that you can be manly even if you like a show for little girls reassures the doubtful, and speaks to those men who had never felt affirmed in their own masculinity because of the things they were interested in.

    Ultimately, the show's empowering stance seems to have mobilized a generation of young men to empower themselves to challenge the gender norms they themselves never fully embraced. And now that the internet has given them a way to network, they've found that they're not alone. Essentially, the community created a chain reaction. Without such a community, I think the whole thing would have died down, but because of the community, the popularity of the show has grown exponentially.
  26. T-block

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    Battlecow, it is difficult to give a response to your argument without simply attacking your misconceptions (in my opinion) of homosexuality and femininity.

    Being female does not imply being feminine. Spike is also a fairly prominent character (the dragon), who is male and would probably appeal to the male audience. I wouldn't label him as "nonthreatening amasculine" either... in one episode he attempts to sabotage another character he thinks is trying to usurp his position, and he regularly shows love interest in one of the ponies.

    This is an interesting point actually.

    As a young boy, I always thoughts rainbows were pretty damn cool. I definitely view this more as an appeal to younger children in general than to just girls, and I think your misconceptions of homosexuality are speaking here.

    I challenge you to find one source that states "rounded", "muted", "ever-shifting", or "pastel-colored" are animation techniques for suggesting femininity, or for targetting a female audience.
  27. Battlecow

    Battlecow Play to Win

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    Ah. ph00tbag, what I got out of your post was that

    1. MLPFiM is a great show.

    To that I say: OK. I couldn't bring myself to watch more than a couple of
    episodes, but I'm not going to critique it as a show here.

    2. Dudes like the show because it lets them "access their feminine side"
    and they like to "shrug off traditional gender roles" or whatever.

    Here's the rub. The argument seems to be that you don't have to be gay to
    watch MLPFiM. I would agree. What I said originally (and, I must admit,
    somewhat tongue-in-cheekily) was that "dudes are getting progressively
    gayer and gayer." What I mean is this- the boys (and perhaps, in a few
    cases, men) who watch the show are either doing it ironically (this
    applies for most of the meme-crowd; damn hipsters) or are genuinely
    looking for a good, well-done way to "get in touch with their feminine
    side." I'm not at all convinced that this latter was not what started the
    trend. Now, if they were, I would think it likely that they were, on some
    level, homosexual, repressed or otherwise. The argument, then, is about
    whether guys who like girly things- and make no mistake, this thing is
    really girly- are ever showing a tendency towards the homosexual. I think
    that sometimes, this is the case. You think otherwise. I can't draw on any
    sources other than personal experience. What about you?

    T-block: Spike is the definition of nonthreatening and amasculine. He's
    tiny, round, soft, high-voiced, and buffoonish. A stallion he is not. And
    please do attack my "misconceptions," because I don't believe that I have
    any.

    The bit about "rounded, muted, pastel-colored" was an original assertion.
    I don't have sources to back it. It just seems archetypically feminine-
    curvy rather than straight, soft rather than hard, that kind of thing.
    Again, look at any "for boys" show and you'll find hardness, straightness,
    boldness; take a look at the Powerpuff Girls if you want more
    pastels and soft roundness.
  28. ballin4life

    ballin4life Smash Debater

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    So when I was driving Battlecow to the train station a few weeks back when he visited CA there was a HUGE double rainbow across the sky. Was it a sign? What does this mean?
  29. Battlecow

    Battlecow Play to Win

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    Lol, I remember that. Fan-****in'-tastic. Great moment.

    If you looked real close, you could see that it was actually a TRIPLE rainbow.

    I guess any human would be awed at the natural beauty of rainbows, but culturally, throwing stylized rainbows into every aspect of a show is definitely feminine.
  30. Dragoon Fighter

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    Can you please explain why a male liking feminine things, regardless of what that feminine thing is or how feminine it is, would cause him in your eyes to be homosexual (Oppressed or not) on ANY level? I do not understand your logic, nor your augment that the fan base is made up of repressed and not repressed homosexuals. I do see the argument for people watching it because it is a cool thing to do, however I see no evidence for that claim, if there are people like that then I doubt they would make up a noticeable number of the fan base.

    As for the dictionary moment I pulled out, it was a response to what I thought you where implying. I thought you where saying that gay men are feminine or have feminine attributes, I was reminding you that is NOT a qualification to be gay, assuming that is what you where trying to argue.

    In your culture. Your culture is not necessarily right, just because something in your culture is some way does NOT make it a universal fact.

    Also Power Rangers dude, they are a rainbow and I do not think they are targeting at girls.
  31. [FBC] Papa Mink

    [FBC] Papa Mink Brawl Backroom Member

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    As a 21 year old male, i can say i represent "an older age group" and i'm going to explain personally why I like the show as an example to why other's may as well.

    I agree with what T-block said regarding the meme created the spark to this show. Personally, what caught my attention first was all the avatars and meme's posted all over SWF. Now, i am a straight 21 year old male, a guitarist, and a full time college student. I don't even watch anime. I give this background information so that as i'm typing this you can have a legitimate idea of who is posting it. The story actually is very well written and the animation is great. Alot of the characters are loveable, and have personalities that represent/reflect people in our own lives. I know many "Raritys" (A character who is vain and oriented towards glamour and nice objects ie jewels.) and "Fluttershys" (a character who is incredibly shy, and nice to others). Alot of these characters represent ourselves as well.

    A great deal of the hype for this show, personally, was how cute everything was drawn, the chibi drawing style really hit me hard. I saw a few screenshots and immediately became curious about the show. After watching one or two episodes i actually didn't fully enjoy it, and found myself muting the theme song :p but halfway through the season (surprisingly addictive, took 3 hours) it didn't bother me anymore. I thought of an example that works VERY well with this show. It has alot of outside judgement, that make alot of people to believe that is indeed NOT a good show, or it is a very homosexual show to watch because it is about ponies and friendship. Alot of people won't even touch it knowing that all the mane cast are female ponies. It reminds me of Kingdom Hearts. Personally, i have never played Kingdom Hearts because, even though i like Final Fantasy, the idea of Disney mixed with Final Fantasy seemed like something made for little kids. The judgement i have placed on Kingdom Hearts (a very high rated game, recommended to me by ALOT of people) even though it was given a high rating, was because i have never tried it.

    The show itself is incredibly feminine, i can't even avoid that. But just because something is feminine doesn't mean you should stay away from it. As kids we all watched Power Puff Girls, and i can bet that we watched... Totally Spies too. Just because it's feminine doesn't mean we have to hate and avoid it. It's all about personal tastes.

    I don't think without the MLP:FiM community i would still be watching this either. If i had never seen pictures and no one on SWF watched it, and i had seen an episode, i more than likely wouldn't have continued watching. Having others that watch it with you and talk to you on the subject is really fun. It gets you more involved and you can actually enjoy it. The community is amazing, i find myself drawing pictures and reading Fan Fiction very often (at least 4x a week). This is not something i have done with ANY other fad of mine.


    The combination of the hype for this show, the internet meme's, the community and the plot/script/animation/drawing style act together in a way that makes me interested and want to stay with this show. I am a straight male, 21 and i enjoy watching My Little Pony.
  32. T-block

    T-block B2B TST

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    Does this have more to do with his age or with his masculinity? I'm inclined to say the former.

    In any case, know that I do acknowledge that the franchise is geared towards a female audience. My original point was that apart from the clearly "girly" topics such as sleepovers and fashion shows, the individual events and dialogue are not overly feminine, and your discomfort with enjoying the show may be due more to the fact that it targets a younger audience, rather than that it targets a female audience.

    Let's take a closer look at a few episodes. I exclude episodes such as Suited for Success and A Dog and Pony Show, as I acknowledge that there are episodes with a feminine tint, although these are a minority. Griffon Brush-off is about a pony who meets with an old friend who thinks the pony's new friends are uncool. Winter Wrap Up is about preparing their environment for spring, in which the main character learns that everyone has their own set of talents that allow them to contribute to a group effort in their own way. In Over a Barrel we see a conflict between two settlements, and watch as compromise leads to an ideal solution.

    Now, are these lessons aimed specifically at girls, or at children in general? I also assert that in the majority of episodes, the dialogue and events are very rarely clearly geared towards a female audience. You'll have to take the word of someone who has watched the episodes, unless you intend to watch them yourself. I suggest Over a Barrel, as it illustrates my point well.

    Dragoon Fighter already touched on this, but you are either confusing correlation to homosexuality with causation of homosexuality, or you hold an inaccurate definition of the word "homosexual". If I told you that I enjoy listening to broadway showtunes, that I love to sing, and that one of my favourite colours is pink (all true), would you label me as homosexual?

    There may be correlation between such traits and being homosexual (and the correlation probably isn't as strong as most people believe either), but there is no causation. Being homosexual doesn't cause you to enjoy showtunes, and enjoying showtunes does not make you homosexual. Homosexuality is, by definition, being sexually attracted to the same sex - nothing more. I know you understand this, but you are not showing it in your arguments.
  33. ph00tbag

    ph00tbag C(ϾᶘϿ)Ͻ

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    I know you've already shown disdain for claims that you harbor misconceptions about members of the lgbt community, but that's one of the crazy things about misconceptions; you don't know they're misconceptions until they're dispelled. I recommend you read up on the latest knowledge about the lgbt community. I haven't looked at the following websites in depth, but hopefully they can be a good launching point for you to start researching the topic.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Queer_studies - Don't take everything here as gospel, but definitely check the citations. There should be some good articles there.
    http://www.yale.edu/lgbts/ - Yale's Queer Studies webpage
    http://www.lgbts.umd.edu/ - University of Maryland
    http://lgbt.arizona.edu/ - UAZ webpage
    http://legacy.www.nypl.org/research/chss/grd/resguides/gay/gay.cfm - New York Public Library portal to various lgbt topics.

    Essentially, there are volumes and volumes of peer-reviewed anthropological research thoroughly debunking your claims about what makes homosexuals homosexuals. And the evidence is not just anecdotal.

    Of course, as far as claims about the brony community go, there's not been, to my knowledge, hard and fast research about the demographics therein. But based on what I know about my peers within the community, and those who have chosen not to watch the show, there does not appear to be any strong demographic correlation. More than anything I'd say the biggest common thread amongst bronies that I've found is their unabashed enthusiasm, and complete imperviousness to aspersions on their sexuality or masculinity. Obviously, it's simply a correlation, and it's hard to say whether this self-confidence is born of enjoying the show, or vice versa, or if there's even a causal relationship between the two of them, but there's definitely a stronger correlation between them than demographic.

    Now what I would be interested in seeing, is your argument for why a man who likes feminine things must also be at least partially homosexual (the fact that no one is 100% heterosexual notwithstanding). Thus far, all I've seen you say is that all gay men like feminine things, therefore men who like feminine things must be at least partially homosexual. Essentially, you're claiming the converse of a demonstrably false premise to be true without determining the truth value of the converse, so not only is your logic totally unsound, but even if it weren't, you would have demonstrated nothing. I'm curious to see if you have any more valid reasoning for your claims.
  34. [FBC] Papa Mink

    [FBC] Papa Mink Brawl Backroom Member

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    The debate in here is about why it attracts people of certain age groups.
    This isn't a discuss homosexuality thread guys. Shouldn't that be brought into another thread?
  35. Sinister Slush

    Sinister Slush ❄ I miss my kind ❄

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    The reason this show appeals to both sexes is because Lauren Faust sought to make it more like a normal cartoon rather than a typical girly cartoon in which the most peril the main characters are met with is not having enough money for that pretty pair of shoes they've had their eye on or not enough supplies to make a Delicious cake for One of the mane casr.
    The characters actually have individual personalities, whereas the characters in a typical girly show are either completely interchangeable or practically interchangeable. Anything overly girly in this show is the result of executive meddling.

    As for age group I'll just state two reasons since I am far too lazy to state all of them.
    One is cause most people like to use Youtube as A Prime example of age groups, and most of us should know that Age over internet is mostly lies. So for all we know it can show 22 years old for the members only to find out it's a whiny 14 year old by watching his CoD videos.
    For the second reason, Hilarious Derpy expressions pulled in nearly every scene. For this generation of MLP you'll mostly get expressions like these.
    While older Generations you'll get stuff like this...
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J4IkaTWTUq8
  36. Battlecow

    Battlecow Play to Win

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    Wait, I'm supposed to look through a bunch of LGBTQ portals until I find something that debunks me? What the ****? No. That ain't gonna fly. Find me a specific article or something and I'll read it. Until then, don't allege that articles which so thoroughly debunk me exist.

    Speaking of things that people aren't going to read through, you obviously haven't read through my previous posts. At no point did I say that men who liked feminine things "must" be homosexual. I took great pains to make clear that this was not my stance. You are attempting, in bad faith, to portray me as making sweeping generalizations about the LGBT community. What I claim, still, is that there is a correlation between homosexuality in men and the "nontraditional love of the feminine" which I discussed earlier. I sincerely doubt that you can find any article with hard evidence to disprove that correlation. I'm not talking about causation, and I'm certainly not implying that all men who like MLP are homosexual. I'm saying that because there is a strong correlation between homosexuality and femininity, the male audiences of "feminine" shows like MLP are likely to be comprised to an unusual degree of gay men. In the case of MLP, however, I've already admitted that this homosexuality may be ironically assumed.

    The power rangers are multicolored, therefore my argument is invalid. Bravo. Really, I didn't expect to come up against such a staggering intellect.

    How old are you? If you're like 11 (as I suspect) I should probably just ignore you. Not gonna lay into your "augments" again until I'm sure that I'm not picking on a kid.

    I have never implied causation. I assert that there is a correlation between "these traits" and homosexuality; I have been at pains this entire time not to assert that ALL men who liked MLP or showtunes were homosexual, and to make it clear that MLP does not CAUSE homosexuality, nor does homosexuality necessarily cause a love of MLP. Since this correlation exists, though, would you not agree that shows like MLP might have a strong gay following? I mean, gay men don't have to be hairdressers, and male hairdressers don't have to be gay, but surely you acknowledge that the gay community is heavily represented in the hairdressing industry?

    As for the lessons aimed at children in general, you make good points. It's certainly a show aimed at children, and I have no doubt that many of the messages could speak just as well to male children. Which is more important? Given the amount of feminine symbolism I've picked up on, I'm still inclined to say the gender aspect.
  37. Dragoon Fighter

    Dragoon Fighter Smash Debater

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    I am 17 going to turn 18 by the end of this month. :glare: Now please actually address the question I asked rather then questioning how old I am, which is not part of this debate.

    While that was some what of a joke, I do think that it some what stands, also I LOVE how you did not answer the more important question I asked...

    ...Now please answer the question.
  38. T-block

    T-block B2B TST

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    Dragoon Fighter, can you please fix the typo in the thread title? It's killing me x.x

    Battlecow, I am not seeing this heavy amount of "feminine symbolism". Again, I'm not going to contest that it is skewed towards a female audience. However, apart from the majority of characters being girls, and the occasional fashion show, there really isn't much that suggests it is a show for girls. Perhaps we should limit the scope of our discussion to one episode. Would it be too much to ask if I were to tell you to watch an episode? =)

    You never implied causation? Are you sure? The thread title is What makes My Little Pony Friendship is Magic appel to an older age group? and you replied with:

    ...and then went on to defend that stance.

    In any case, I won't deny the correlation, but it is certainly not strong enough that it is justified to see rainbows and think "show for gays" rather than "children tend to be fascinated with rainbows".
  39. ph00tbag

    ph00tbag C(ϾᶘϿ)Ͻ

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    http://counselingoutfitters.com/Rees.htm

    Specifically the last bits of the summary.

    I've deleted the first part of this paragraph, because you've decided to argue more about semantics than the actual point, but this statement is where you get to the core of your claim.

    And you are still asserting a converse accident, which is still based on a false premise.
  40. Battlecow

    Battlecow Play to Win

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    I have already answered this question in response to ph00tbag and T-block
    An increase in male gayness could bring a rise in popularity for MLP, because as we've already agreed, gay dudes are more likely to like feminine things, yes?

    Of course, when I see the rainbows, I think "show for little girls." Duh. It's when I see that a bunch of 17-19 year old guys are watching it that I idly make guesses at what some of their sexual orientations might be.

    As for the feminine symbolism, I'm asserting that the rainbows, pink+purple, animation style, and double-girl on the yin-yang and stuff like that makes for a lot of feminine symbolism.

    Now you're just being mean :(. There's a big difference between saying "Male MLP viewers must be gay" and "I believe that some male members of the MLP movement are possessed of real or ironically assumed homosexuality." It's the difference between being right and wrong. It is not semantics.

    Please explain to me how I'm asserting a converse accident. I've reviewed the definition thereof and my arguments, and I don't see how I'm asserting any such thing.

    As for your source, it acknowledges that gay men tend to be more feminine than straight ones, and then gives me a lecture about how I shouldn't assume that feminine men are gay. What facts or studies do they present in this article that contradict my stance so far? None.

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