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What, in yr opinion, does Ganon lack the most?

Discussion in 'Ganondorf' started by Z1GMA, Dec 21, 2009.

  1. Z1GMA

    Z1GMA Smash Master

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    What, in your opinion, does Ganon lack the most?
    Sure there are many things, compared to most other chars.
    But if you were to point out just 1 thing?

    :034: <- I always forget to include Nidoking in my posts.
  2. Kitamerby

    Kitamerby Smash Hero

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    He lacks a Falcon Punch the most.


    If he just had the Mach Tornado, he'd be viable, tho.
  3. stRIP

    stRIP Smash Ace

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    A good OoS option

    It's a must have as a defensive Char and he lacks it.
  4. SmashBrosForce

    SmashBrosForce Smash Ace

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    Well, I have to say that Ganondorf lacks a DECENT approach. Ganondorf doesn't have many fast movements (Except Uair, Nair...) to be mixed during the approach.


    Despising his Laggy moves, Ganondof doesn't need Falcon Punch or Match Tornado to be good son, maybe he needed to use his sword or his Dark magic to be used as a projectile to become even better in Brawl.

    The Dark Lord it is complete the way it is.
  5. Z1GMA

    Z1GMA Smash Master

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    .
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  6. Chuee

    Chuee Smash Hero

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    He lacks a quick attack.

    1,000th post!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
    :D
  7. thexsunrosered

    thexsunrosered Smash Lord

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    I think if Ganon had better air speed he'd be hella better
  8. @HomE

    @HomE Smash Ace

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    Ganon's OoS option is rolling backwards, and we actually have a very good backroll..

    I think if ganon had his Melee jab, that would be sick. With a 2 frame jab we would be pretty viable IMO...
  9. Bahamut777

    Bahamut777 Smash Ace

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    A good grab range asside from pivot grab... =/
  10. Rialdospaldacht

    Rialdospaldacht Smash Apprentice

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  11. PK-ow!

    PK-ow! Smash Lord

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    Alacrity in terms of lag.

    I don't care about how fast it comes out, how ****ty his jump is, or all his bugs, errors, and hitbox BS.



    A heavy character generally has hard hitting moves but they themselves are balanced with high risk. The "heavy" character over the weak character has the advantage of getting these moves at all.

    But Ganon is not just a heavy character. He's supposed to be a strong mother****er. And not just strong - THE, strong, mother****er.
    What sense does it make that he can't have at least the advantage of recovering from such hard hitting moves like they are nothing - WHICH THEY ARE, TO HIM.



    It makes no sense that a character who's endurance is boundless and strength is herculean, that he takes more time to recover from his simple NAir than.... any other character takes to recover from basically any aerial. He's not Donkey Kong where we could say he only has upper body mass or something; Ganon has the power of a God and an immortal body.
    I'm talking about landing lag for aerials. For natural lag, it has to do with orientation and thus, dexterity.


    So what Ganon needs is just cut time from all kinds of "lag" in his moves.
    Exceptions of course would be made for all the specials ('cause they involve tapping into something nonphysical), his utilt (c'mon, be fair), and Dash Attack (he's off-balance during it), and ... likely for sanity at this point, you'd have to leave dtilt or ftilt the way it is.

    But all the smashes can be faster. Aerials could be faster - even DAir. I think ftilt could be faster so the price goes to dtilt (this would be sick if it were faster).


    Most importantly, jab could stand to be faster. It's the one move that would have been so cool to see conditional IASA on - if it hits, you can cancel into a run or something. But sticking with Brawl's overall design decisions, it just should have been safer. Let Ganon follow up people he hits, to some degree; and let him have a chance at getting away with shield hitting with it, in compensation for that janky *** grab and the ftilt that doesn't poke at any spacing.

    If it were possible, a faster recovery than others when jab clanks would be sick, too. But I'm not asking for that much.
  12. Divilenta

    Divilenta Smash Journeyman

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    Actually only a few things.

    -Somewhat longer grab range. Seriously, it sucks to not be able to grab someone in front of you.

    -Faster attacks. Self explanatory. Also the thing with the coding error on F-air needs to be fixed.

    And possibly:

    -Use the sword. Not really, he doesn't need a sword to be manly.

    -A projectile. In just about every Zelda game he had a projectile attack. So why not have one?

    -A better second jump. I don't mind it myself, since it cancels out the downward trajectory of a D-air, but it could be better.
  13. SmashBrosForce

    SmashBrosForce Smash Ace

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    Quite Agreed.

    vBrawl Ganondorf with Melee Ganondorf's Jab would be really nice, helpful and at least we would have a quick ground move.
  14. stRIP

    stRIP Smash Ace

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    Fix'd
    10youdontgetit's
  15. @HomE

    @HomE Smash Ace

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    lol strip.. i get everything >_>

    I just said that our best OoS option is rolling away... I didn't say its going to solve the problem that Ganon gets raped by campers.

    One thing i never really understood is why people feel like they need to camp Ganon to win.... Ohhh yea... nvm people are ******s
  16. Divilenta

    Divilenta Smash Journeyman

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    Srry, but I like my Ganondorfs manly, not silly.

    10sillies
  17. Superspright

    Superspright Smash Lord

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    Ganon needs unbelievable priority. All of his moves are extremely powerful yet are canceled out by pathetic moves. Like someone stated before--he has the power of the gods--power in fact. Which is what he should exude. Being over-prioritized is probably my biggest problem. I can deal with all of his garbage moves, by my opponents have tons of safe options, and even if I went even with them in terms of priority I'd at least be trading hits for BETTER, because of my greater damage output.

    essentially I wish Ganon was feared more than laughed at. If he had great priority he may be better.
  18. DaisyBoo92

    DaisyBoo92 Smash Apprentice

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    His crotch from melee. I mean, come on.
  19. DLA

    DLA Got no patience, cuz I'm not a doctor

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    Any one of these three would have made Ganon much more viable:

    - A good projectile that would actually allow him to camp and force his opponent's approach

    - A good approach so that he could actually... approach

    - A good OoS option, such as better grab range or a faster jab.
  20. Superspright

    Superspright Smash Lord

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    I was going to say a projectile too--but it wouldn't help him once people learned how to PS it. Projectiles are pretty much moot at very high levels of play. I am voting for a good OoS option or high priority--or just give his gerudo super armor frames through the entire animation and I'll be happy as hell. I can't tell you how many times I've been jabbed out of it. x.x
  21. Z1GMA

    Z1GMA Smash Master

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    imo, what he lacks the most, is a faster jab. But, not only that - A "One, two"-jab, so that you would be able to Jab cancel.

    Ganon with a quick Jab Cancel Game would be sweet.
    Just imagine: Jab Cancel -> Ftilt/iDA

    And the chanses for you to land a Gerudo would be dramaticly increased.
  22. Terodactyl Yelnats

    Terodactyl Yelnats Smash Ace

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    -Ganon needs an approach more than anything else, he is a straight up defense machine but he is forced to approach in many MU's. If Ganon's sideB hitbox lasted longer and had good priority that would be amazing.
    -An OoS option will complete Ganon's defense. A decent Grab range would work wonders and an autocanceling nair.
  23. yaya0

    yaya0 Smash Rookie

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    He lacks everything.

    MK 4ever
  24. A2ZOMG

    A2ZOMG Smash Hero

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    Ganon lacks a consistent way to deal damage.

    I mean he can kill you, but he can't actually rack damage in any consistent way. Stale moves hurts Ganon TREMENDOUSLY because you are almost always forced to use your best kill moves to deal damage due to Ganon's inability to land hits in general.

    This is due to the fact he lacks an approach, a poke option, AND a viable grab.
  25. *JuriHan*

    *JuriHan* Smash Master

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    approach, grabs, recovery
  26. Breezy

    Breezy Smash Ace

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    A european shoulder bag.
  27. Superspright

    Superspright Smash Lord

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    A rubber ducky, with transcendent priority.
  28. noradseven

    noradseven Smash Lord

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    Some safe form to pressure the opponent. <-----main problem
    Having slow movement, bad recovery, not great range, and not enough damage to make up for it is the main annoyance.

    I seriously don't understand why people keep trying to do all these things to ganon in vBrawl, and B+ when you could just give his moves more shield stun, and make them do a **** ton more and he would go up to mid, sure some matches would still be *** lol Sheik/IC/Falco, but brawl is an unbalanced game and plus if he did a **** ton more and more of his moves were safe on shield, his risk reward ratio would be alot better.

    I don't have a huge problem with OSS, lol ZSS player where we don't have a ****ing grab, and have a ****ty shield :D.

    Seriously just PS **** its not hard and brawl and gives enough frames back to normally allow even ganon some form of retaliation or at least make the opponent rethink blindly attacking.

    Also on anyone above mid height jump instant air over B is faster and safer in my opinion than standing over B, it doesn't provide the d-tilt guessing game but it still allows you to punish wakeup, I don't know I find it useful to close the last little bit on projectile users who always try to jump over u lol, hits standing or jumping, short characters and some crouchers evade it but still, useful to keep in mind.
  29. Superspright

    Superspright Smash Lord

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    I couldn't imagine what Ganon would be like with real shield pressure. I feel that he could have been played totally differently if shield-stun, and pushback were more significant. He would be like a super fat peach with no float. Pressuring the hell out of your shield--and probably breaking it.
  30. noradseven

    noradseven Smash Lord

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    Yeah thats how I think he should be played and this is what I think they should of done to him in Brawl+ instead of making him into that abomination. Well this and real damage im talking 50-100% damage increases around the board.
  31. ShinGaruda

    ShinGaruda Smash Journeyman

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    Grab range, recovery, anti-aerial attacks. I don't know what more to add without making him completely broken.
  32. SpongeJordan

    SpongeJordan Smash Lord

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    Grab range. It's simply abysmal. Less landing lag on fair/dair also.
  33. Jocky

    Jocky Smash Cadet

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    A way to get back on stage perhaps?
    Man do I wish he could float like in oot
    It'd just be ****** floating back on stage like that
    Maybe while casting irreflectable balls of lightning(Unless it's the master sword)
    And causing an earthquake 1.2x the size of dk's down b
    on all rco lag or failed autocancels, maybe a windbox or two

    @Superspright, he needs his own class of priority, beating out even mk's annoying as hell transcendent priority, perhaps freezing the opponents in their beaten out moves while Ganon then proceeds with a good'ol 3 frame jab
  34. NatP

    NatP Smash Ace

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    Ganon should have this IMO:
    - Usmash should snake's utilt hitbox, to make it useful;
    - He should switch weight's with Snake like how it SHOULD be;
    - He should have a big grab range (as big as like his whole arm);
    - Better aerial speed (just a little worse than DK's aerial speed);
    - Fair is the move it should be and it has less lag;
    - Wizard kick has priority and has a huge hitbox.

    I think this would be enough to make ganon viable.
  35. smashkng

    smashkng Smash Lord

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    He would still need a better jump break, a better jab, more floaty like in Melee to reduce chain grab rape on him and up b grab power like in Melee. And also Wizard Kick hitting hard like in Melee. If more air speed would improve his approach, then the rest have you said.
  36. A2ZOMG

    A2ZOMG Smash Hero

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    It's slower actually.
  37. GunmasterLombardi

    GunmasterLombardi Smash Champion

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    Projectile, Punishing, Speed.:kirby2:
  38. Superspright

    Superspright Smash Lord

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    I actually have to agree with all three of those things, but disagree at the same time since the OP asked for ONE thing--not three.

    Anyway, it has to be the projectile perhaps? But, that is assuming it is GOOD enough to force an approach on certain characters. If his B move was like a chargeable orb that he fired out 4 or so homing things, he would definitely FORCE an approach. Even if they were 1-2 damage each.

    There are so many things he really needs, but a solid projectile that can force an approach on most of the cast would have made him significantly better. Even if people can PS it they would still have to stop for a second while he runs up thunderstorming.
  39. Squirrely

    Squirrely Smash Journeyman

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    The only things Ganon has going for him is power and weight.
    Everything else about him is awful.

    That is to say...

    Speed.
    Priority.
    Recovery.
    Projectile.
    Anti-projectile.
    Approach.
    Defense.
    Grab game.
    Combo game.
    Air mobility.

    His taunts are actually ok too, I suppose, though they're a bit long. Gotta give him props for floating over bobombs while spinning in mid-air .

    I could go through and list every bad aspect about him in detail but we've been doing this since day one.

    But back to your original question, the most frustrating part about playing Ganon is having no escape plan. No projectiles to help you recover or keep other people from running up to you and raping you or to maybe hurt them while they launch their superior projectiles at you or to stop a wall of blizzard that also grabs and kills you. No way to get out of being combo'd to death via chain grabs to spikes or even easier, edgehogs. Nothing kills me easier than simply being edgehogged.



    The short answer is Ganon lacks options.
    He pretty much has one way of doing things and it doesn't work against people with half a clue.
  40. Superspright

    Superspright Smash Lord

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    That is summed up nicely. Ganon is predictable because of his flawed design--he cannot supersede that...you have to read your opponent nigh flawlessly in order to win at the highest competitive levels. Even then that's not enough for most matchups.

    So yeah. Why does this topic exist?

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