What Dedede needs in the next balance patch. Discussion

[Ripple]

I'm making this thread so the PMBR can check out what us DDD mains would like in the next patch without having to go on videos or in threads all over the place to find out what we want or have problems with. If you're going to suggest something PLEASE form a argument as to why it should be considered and what affect it'll have on Dedede's gameplay as a whole or more so in a specific match up. Saying "DDD needs a faster jab", while possibly a good idea, doesn't explain WHY we need a faster jab. please stray away from this and elaborate on what you want. I will update this thread with agreed upon decisions by the majority of us. (note: they all don't have to be buffs, if you feel something of Dedede's is over powered, don't be afraid to share)

 

[9bit]

I think DDD's biggest weaknesses right now are movement/mobility in the neutral game and defense.

I mean, characters should have weaknesses, but are these aspects of him too weak? I think some of them are too weak, while others are appropriate for balance.

1. Movement / mobility
   • Waddledashing is good. It's really good actually... once a Waddle is already out on the ground. The problem comes from the fact that the endlang on throwing one is kinda long, and that the entire process is a little telegraphed. Speed up the endlag on grounded Waddle throw and his movement game becomes much more functional.
     • Aerial throwing is fine and can be left as-is. But grounded throw show be able to be followed into a waddledash more quickly than it currently can.
   • His movement options outside of Waddle Dash are pretty bad. He has a slow run speed and a short-ish wavedash. And a 'meh' dash dance. When DDD isn't waddledashing, he tends to not move much.
     • But I think this is OK and is just part of his character design. He doesn't have any way to force the opponent to have to come to him, to get in his grab range, so he needs a way to get to the opponent. I think my suggestion for improving Waddle throw will help.
2. Defense
   • Because of his slow mobility, DDD's main defense is either trying to simply wall someone out, which he is good at, but isn't always an option, or shielding. Which brings us to his out-of-shield options.
     • Aerial attacks. B-air is good if you're facing the right way for it. N-air is OK but easy to get hit out of. F-air is slow to come out, as is D-air. They all have their use and can work well in the right situation, but they aren't enough for really hard shield pressure.
       
     • Up-B. Pretty bad as it is right now. Slow start-up and low knockback. My suggestion is to leave everything else about the move the same, but increase the speed at which it starts up (and delivers the hit) and the knockback it delivers. It wouldn't make it super safe because you still have to land after doing it, which is slow and kinda laggy, but it would at least allow him to attempt to get some pressure off his shield. Armada used Pit's Up-B OoS very effectively at Apex, and I'd like to see DDD have that same ability, but with higher endlag because of the way DDD's Up-B works after activation -- cancelling it and falling back to the ground.

In summary: reduce the endlag on ground throwing Waddles and make Up-B out of shield better. This buffs two of DDD's biggest weaknesses -- mobility and defense -- without fundamentally changing the way the character plays and without adding any cheese in my eyes.


Edit / update: I just thought of a cool idea. What if you could use A+B to throw a Waddle so it lands facing you instead of away from you. Then it walks towards you. That could be cool.

 

[PMS | LEVEL 100 MAGIKARP]

Get rid of Gordos. They are essentially a useless object that can ruin a DDD's game due to chance. Most of the time, when a DDD uses throw, it's in the air, where only DDD is affected. people rarely use throw on the ground, and if they do, it is rarely up close. Since a gordo moves so slowly, anytime a gordo appears, it's a trivial matter to avoid it.
Something that is meant to be a buff to DDD in vBrawl ends up hurting him and ruining a game due to chance.

Or, make it so that Gordos only appear on ground throws, which would be more of a buff than the other option.

 

[9bit]

Or, make it so that Gordos only appear on ground throws, which would be more of a buff than the other option.

I like this.

Another thought could be to give DDD a charge mechanic like Wario or Lucario, and A+B or B+R unleashes a Gordo.

Or even make it so you can Waddle glide/dash off a Gordo, but the act of doing so makes the Gordo weaker. Like it loses its spikes and does the same damage as a normal Waddle at that point.

Either way I still want Gordos to travel in the same trajectory as regular Waddles so that a perfectly aimed shot doesn't just... miss because of chance.


PMBR hit me up I got ideas.

 

[Ripple]

I like 9bit's original post. having cooldown on waddles would be nice even if it's just a little bit. it's currently 61 frames long and waddle comes out frame 18. that's 43 frames of cooldown. a little too much to make a grounded toss worthwhile. something like 36-38 frames of cool down would be acceptable.

I don't like either of magikarp's ideas. mainly because when I'm recovering at a certain angle and the opponents near the ledge, I WILL throw a waddle at them

 

[9bit]

I don't like either of magikarp's ideas. mainly because when I'm recovering at a certain angle and the opponents near the ledge, I WILL throw a waddle at them

That's a good point. OK I changed my mind I no longer support the grounded-only idea. lols

I really do think the best thing would be to just make the trajectories the same. I really dislike missing with a Gordo because I'm aiming for a Waddle. I don't know why the trajectories are different anyway, it's not like Gordos are so OP that being able to hit with one would break the character or anything.

Edit: I also think Dedede should be able to Waddle dash/glide using Gordos. I posted this in another thread and I want it included here too. After dashing or gliding off a Gordo, it could lose its spikes when you perform the dash/glide if the developers felt it could be exploited in some way or too good. This would eliminate the problem of pulling a Gordo when trying to recover, but still allow you to use them offensively when recovering too. But they need to follow the same trajectory as a normal Waddle.

 

[Ripple]

What I want more than anything that would be a HUGE buff to Dedede would be opponents automatically breaking out of inhale grab, rather than automatically being spat.

 

[JerkPhil]

I don't have access to PM at the moment so I can't test it, but is it possible that the inhale release works the same in PM as in Brawl? If your opponent breaks free while DDD turn around, they spawn above you in Brawl. Has anyone tested this in PM?

 

[Ripple]

it works the same. if they mash, they are released via our back side. if not, they are spat out

 

[g-regulate]

I've always really liked the idea of either 1. Cutting down the lagtime after he swallows items, waddles, etc. so that it doesnt basically stun him, making it a good defense from spammy item characters (peach, young link, snake, diddy, rob), or 2. giving him the ability to at least spit them back out in star form, much like if he swallowed a character


wooooow dont get rid of gordos, they are amazing!

 

[victra♥]

Before I start spewing my opinions, I'd just like to share a bit about myself so I can add a little legitimacy to my ideas haha. I'm a top PM/Melee player in my region (Alberta) with several PM tournament wins as Dedede, including a top 8 finish at a Canadian national (Smash Chronicles 2). From my experiences, here are a few changes to the King that would be great to see:

Improved Inhale

• Much like Wario's bite, Ganon's choke and Bowser's claw, Inhale is currently a great mix up to beat shielding opponents, and typically puts them in a bad position. However, unlike other characters the reward isn't as obvious or as guaranteed, and doesn't justify it's long startup and inhale time.
• Inhale should either have enough hitstun for better follow ups, or have a reduced inhale time (much like kirby's) so that Dedede can make more use of inhale, and have it closer in line with other "air grabs" in PM.
• Right now, tomahawk inhale as a mix up, and gimmicky suicide kills (the long inhale time actually makes this really easy to do if your opponents don't expect it) are the only instances that i found to be good uses for inhale, but there could be many more.

Improved Waddle Throw

• Waddle dashing is an amazing option that gives Dedede a lot of mobility when they are set up, but as a projectile its rather lack luster and unsafe, primarily due to it's long startup and cooldown.
• Reducing the startup/cooldown times of the waddle throw gives us more opportunities to set up for waddle dashes, and to have a more viable projectile
• Dedede overall is an incredible defensive character but doesn't have any real way to force his opponents to approach him, having a more viable projectile solves this problem

God Damn Gordos

• Gordos have given me some cheap kills when thrown fairly point blank when neither my opponent (or I)expect it. Otherwise, from further distances its fairly easy to block and avoid due Gordo's slow trajectory. However I have found it to be a great zoning tool when the opponent is airborne and usually forces second jump etc.
• I've thrown gordos when trying to recovery via waddle dash and its rather annoying. I'd like to see a change implemented that only allows gordos to be thrown when on the ground.

Faster Jab

• Dedede has a great defensive game due to his character design, and is often played in a style that stuffs and punishes approaches with shield grabs, fair/bair, and ftilt. Outside of a waddledash, Dedede has no real safe way of approaching outside of the steady "moving fortress" style, without getting shield grabbed or stuffed due to his relatively short horizontal aerial range, and slow start ups.
• A faster jab gives Dedede an option to attack shields safer by offering a more effective way of stuffing their OoS option and allows Dedede to be a bit more aggressive offensively.
• Dedede's jab also has a lot of follow ups which is great.

I honestly believe Dedede is one of the best characters in PM. I feel like he is in a good place atm, but these improvements would give him a few more options to be aggressive instead of relying on being an almost entirely defensive character due to the nature of his character design.

​

 

[Yurya]

Speeding up jump-squat will really help him out in a bunch of small ways: grounded waddle dashing, OoS, and just attacking in the air in general.
I also think Uair should be changed to a overheaded two-handed swing ending like a using a hammer to hit a nail into the wall. The current Uair has few uses and is a bit awkward.

That said PM shold be looking to not change characters much at all unless that decide in making a major universal shift somewhere (like reviewing ALL Melee Vets)

 

[PMS | LEVEL 100 MAGIKARP]

Increasing uair knockback for KOs off the top would be fun and give ddd a few more options other than just grab to gimp/fair, and since he already has a pretty good juggling game it'd complement him well.

 

[AncientPancakes]

The changes I would most like to see would be:

1. Less endlag on grounded Side B. I think waddle dashing is a very useful mechanic but I feel it is too telegraphed.

2. Faster jump squat. I think this would be a great buff because it would help him out in many small ways like Yurya said. His oos options are lacking a bit imo and this would help him.

3. Buffed Uair. I find that the only time i use uair is when they are just out of the range for nair to hit. And while i don't think it is a bad move it would be nice to have more reasons to use it. Stronger kill power off the top is a cool idea like others have mentioned.

 

[9bit]

Results so far:

Spoiler: Proposed suggestions

Suggested multiple times
4 suggestions for decreased endlag on grounded Waddle toss
3 for improved up-air in some way
2 for faster jump squat
2 for being able to only throw Gordos when grounded

The rest of the suggestions
• Get rid of Gordos
• Make Gordos travel in the same trajectory as regular Waddles
• Being able to dash off Gordos but make them lose their spikes (and potency) after the dash
• Improved grounded up-B
• When opponent breaks out of Inhale they always get dumped out, rather than spat
• Cutting down the lagtime after he swallows items, waddles, etc. so that it doesn't basically stun him, or giving him the ability to at least spit them back out in star form, much like if he swallowed a character
• Improved inhale -- more hitstun after spit or make it more like Kirby's in terms of speed
• Faster jab
• A bigger shield

What I'd like to start seeing at this point is people voting for their favorites of the suggestions mentioned.

Maybe... vote for your 5 favorites? I think if DDD got 5 buffs from the above list he would be in really good shape, and it would constitute 1/3 of the suggestions made once I divided them into ~15 choices in the Voting options spoiler below. Then we can tally up everyone's votes and see where we're at.

Spoiler: Voting options

I'm going to group these, but each bullet point counts as one vote. You can vote for multiple bullet points in one category.

Waddles
• Improve grounded Waddle toss -- reduced endlag, startup, or both

Gordos
• Can only throw Gordos when grounded
• Get rid of Gordos entirely
• Gordos travel in the same trajectory as normal Waddles
• Can waddle-dash off Gordos

Up-air
• Increased knockback
• Make it a two-handed swing like pounding a nail into a wall

Inhale
• More hitstun on spit to allow better followups
• Reduced inhale time (make it more like Kirby's)
• When opponent breaks out of Inhale they always get dumped out, never spat out
• Cut down the lagtime/stun after DDD swallows items/waddles to make it a viable counter to projectiles
• Change inhaling items/waddles to allow DDD the ability to spit them in star form, much like if he swallowed a character

General Speed
• Faster jab
• Faster jump-squat

Misc
• Grounded up-B comes out faster and has more knockback
• A bigger shield

MY VOTES! In listed order, not in order of how much I want them >_>

1. Waddles: Improve grounded Waddle toss
2. Gordos: Can waddle-dash off Gordos
3. Inhale: More hitstun on spit to allow better followups
4. Inhale: Change inhaling items/waddles to allow DDD the ability to spit them in star form, much like if he swallowed a character
5. Misc: Grounded up-B comes out faster and has more knockback


Edit: updated to include bigger shield as a suggestion/option

 

[Ripple]

He needs a bigger shield as a suggestion

 

[victra♥]

dedede with a bigger shield might be a little too op lmaooo

 

[Ripple]

Hardly, I know how to and can consistently angle my shield and I still get shield poked like no other against characters like wolf and fox

 

[RPGsFTW]

I really think this list of changes is very interesting. The things that would help the most, in my opinion, would be some combination of (in no particular order):

- No air gordos for safety of waddle tossing to recover.
- Less lag/end time after using waddle toss period.
- Faster initial jump, assuming that refers to the jump squat.
- More use after inhaling a person. I don't know what to suggest though, but the hitstun sounds like that may be good.
- Maybe a different Nair? I REALLY don't find his current Nair very helpful at all. The only thing he ever does out of shield is grab, Bair, and wavedash, I guess. A not so seemingly ehh Nair would be nice.
- As for Uair, I'd really like it changed, but I don't know what would work, considering his Fair is pretty much used as an Uair as is.
- A slightly faster/more useful jab.

 

[Chesstiger2612]

I would like to see:
- Less endlag on waddledee
- Up-B as OOS option
- Little buff on up-air
I think thats all he needs some of his weaknesses have to stay because they are part of his character design

 

[PMS | LEVEL 100 MAGIKARP]

Give DDD Zelda Uair lol

votes:
-Gordos travel in same trajectory as waddles and can be waddle dashed
-increased uair knockback
-cut down inhale endlag and allow stars to be spat from inhaled projectiles in which the star itself acts a projectile, with a weak hitbox like the stars on upb

 

[victra♥]

honestly i would be happy if dedede's inhale was the same as kirby's in terms of endlag

 

[Yurya]

What I'd like to start seeing at this point is people voting for their favorites of the suggestions mentioned.

Because the majority should always get there way.

Increasing uair knockback for KOs off the top would be fun and give ddd a few more options other than just grab to gimp/fair, and since he already has a pretty good juggling game it'd complement him well.

I was thinking like a complementary swing for his fair covering above and in front instead of below and in front.

 

[9bit]

Because the majority should always get there way.

Because I want to see what the most popular suggestions are

 

[Fish&Herbs19]

I hope that they don't change DDD's nair. The move is great at higher percents and can combo pretty well. It is also quite fast

 

[victra♥]

i love ddd's nair

 

[Yurya]

Because I want to see what the most popular suggestions are

fair is fair

 

[9bit]

The more I play, watch, and think about things the more I dislike Gordos.

I really truly thing that either the random element of them should be removed (like you can pull one when you choose to) or they should be removed entirely (or put them on the same trajectory as Waddles and let us glide/dash off them). DDD's Waddle game is so important to his success and all they do is get in the way: hitting the opponent with a Waddle is a small part of his overall Waddle game.

I've been putting in some time and I'm understanding that the things you can do by gliding or dashing off your Waddles is insane. I'm talking 20XX DDD play. Gordos only get in the way.

All they are good for is an occasional bit of extra damage or a kill. I don't think that's worth the tradeoff of what you lose by pulling a Gordo when you want (or NEED) a regular Waddle.

I think something needs to be done and soon. Because the longer it goes on like this I feel the less likely it is to be changed.

The Waddle is not just some projectile, it affects his neutral game, his movement, his recovery, and his edgeguarding, if not more. This is the change I want most for DDD, forget all the other stuff I said. If we are to be expected to push DDD's metagame as far as it can go, random Gordos have to be removed.

 

[Kit Cal-N]

Make Gordos like Luigi misfires. He flashes during startup, hold shield to save it and throw a Waddle instead. Viola.

 

[Fish&Herbs19]

I've had Gordos win me quite a couple games. Although I hate randomness as much as any other guy in this thread, but I don't think they are a very big problem

 

[IndianapolisCentralGaming]

As ocd I am about being perfect/effective as possible. Like i put my car in neutral when rolling up to a stop light and don't brake.

I say a taunt drop off a waddle during the last few frames. for respawn options.

Being able to taunt drop a waddle near an edge when they respawn would let You really abuse the soak factor of them making a wall of escape options either by glide or anti projectile. And after the rush of inv. frames are gone You can use the extra waddle to flip the tables.

 

[9bit]

I'd prefer having the ability to have a Gordo in storage somehow and unleash it with B+A, but regardless I really think that gliding/dashing is too important to DDD's metagame (or it will be) to have a random chance to prevent him from being able to do it.

 

[victra♥]

that seems like a really neat mechanic 9bit.

And yeah, if i had a dollar for every time i wanted to waddle dash to recover but a gordo came out -.-

 

[Ripple]

You'll see me die 3x in one set at shuffle because of a gordo coming out instead of a waddle. And it was round 1 too. Scary stuff.

Also, I put up a detailed post on my thoughts of what dedede needs sometime later today or tomorrow along with all of my shuffle videos

 

[victra♥]

Looking forward to your sets ripple, congrats on cracking top 8 btw! Gotta show people how good Dedede is.

 

[yellowdee]

How about having increased aerial momentum when jumping backwards from the dashed turnaround animation Dedede makes? Sort of like a moonwalk, but easier to pull off. He seems to really fling himself out there turning around with the hammer, Which inspired the idea. I don't think it would be overpowered, and would add nice spacing/escape options, in addition to edge guarding low recoveries.

As an example, I do this a lot with Mario to get out in the open faster when edgeguarding with bairs. The backwards jump off the turnaround animation lets Mario shorthop twice as far as a normal backwards-shorthop.

 

[KOkingpin]

- No air gordos for safety of waddle tossing to recover
- Maybe a different Nair? I REALLY don't find his current Nair very helpful at all. The only thing he ever does out of shield is grab, Bair, and wavedash, I guess. A not so seemingly ehh Nair would be nice.
- As for Uair, I'd really like it changed, but I don't know what would work, considering his Fair is pretty much used as an Uair as is.
- A slightly faster/more useful jab.

so there is a ton wrong with these 4 things.

1. For all the people complaining about throwing gordos while waddle dash recovering just listen to your game. And if you are one of those people who turn your volume down sorry. Downward angle weak waddle toss allows you to waddle dash without wasting a jump if your momentum is going back towards the stage. If you see yourself throw a gordo you have a big scary shield covering your recovery. Gordos are always boss just pay attention. Gordos dont mess with anything in Dedede's neutral game. Waddles are not meant to be thrown in the neutral game. They are meant to be thrown when Dedede is at the advantage. Then having the waddles down increases the potency of your neutral game. That being said they are not the be all end all of Dedede's Neutral game. He has other tools in the neutral game. If you decrease the endlag on Grounded waddle toss it becomes spammable and thats not fun for anyone. Use the move correctly or get punished is how i feel about it.

2. Nair is one of Dedede's best moves. Flub nair combos into its self 3 times then into Fair. It also wrecks fast fallers out of up throw. Nair out of shield isnt supposed to be good.

3. UAir does what nair does but with a massive disjointed hitbox above Dedede. Thank god its no longer multihit and smash DIable. Fair is not a combo tool like Uair and Nair. They function in completely different ways. I will admit that I dont like the fact that Nair and UAir function in very similar ways but you just gotta use them in their different situations.

4. If Dedede's jab was faster it would be broken as all hell. Considering Jab>Jab>Grab, Jab>Jab>DTilt, and Jab>Jab>DownB works or pretty much everyone for long percentages. His defensive game isn't supposed to be in his shield. He has the range to keep his opponents at bay. Someone mentioned him having short horizontal range. I think you have his Fair mixed up with someone elses.

@ 9bit - being able to toss a Gordo at will would be stupid good.

Oh and Inhale is already really good. With the ability to DI while falling you can suck people away from the ledge without suiciding and in double you can turn your partner into an invincible projectile which is hilarious. Also it wrecks Spacies when you land it cause They almost always do the same thing. Break out of the star and immediately side b. Beat that crap with up tilt.

So many different buffs being called for. Not every move has to be good. Dedede is fine. He has bad matchups like anyone else in the game and he is hard as hell to kill.

I do like the Idea of spitting the items back at people when inhaled. Just like I think wario should get +15 seconds of fart timer for swallowing an item.

 

[victra♥]

I really wish dedede's inhale worked like kirby's. Makes me sad that kirby can abuse inhale much more safely.

I keep hearing how good inhale is but i just can't get myself to make it work. I just seems like too much of a risk and not enough reward.

 

[ItsRainingGravy]

You'll see me die 3x in one set at shuffle because of a gordo coming out instead of a waddle. And it was round 1 too. Scary stuff.

Also, I put up a detailed post on my thoughts of what dedede needs sometime later today or tomorrow along with all of my shuffle videos

AND IT NEVER CAME TO BE.

My thoughts on DeDeDe:

1) Less endlag on Waddle Toss. Would be a VERY small increase, by about a few frames. Excessive buffing in this area would make it broken.
2) Gordos can only be thrown on the ground. To compensate, the player has the option to store this Gordo (which is given a different throwing animation or effect/flash on startup) by pressing the shield button...akin to Luigi's Misfire.
3) Gordo's damage/knockback is reduced slightly, due to the above reason.
4) Downward angle weak Waddle Toss on the ground throws Waddle Dees/Doos closer to DeDeDe. This would allow faster and more efficient opportunities for grounded Waddledashes.
5) Change inhaling items/waddles to allow DDD the ability to spit them in star form, much like if he swallowed a character.

 

[Ripple]

I still have them, I've been sick and injured lately. I got a lot of downtime today. Ill upload and post