What characters are actually good against META KNIGHT

[#HBC | Joker]

People watching videos of current top MK players and getting good by copying the things they do, does not progress the metagame. In fact, it stagnates it. The top MK players are not good because they all copied M2K. They progressed the metagame by inventing their own style, not by copying another one.

 

[Vkrm]

People watching videos of current top MK players and getting good by copying the things they do, does not progress the metagame. In fact, it stagnates it. The top MK players are not good because they all copied M2K. They progressed the metagame by inventing their own style, not by copying another one.

Agreed, but after copying said techs and applying them. If they happen to be effective, Their opponents would be forced to develop counter strats. In that way it does add to the metagame, or at least it would if we were talking about a different game.

 

[SaveMeJebus]

People watching videos of current top MK players and getting good by copying the things they do, does not progress the metagame. In fact, it stagnates it. The top MK players are not good because they all copied M2K. They progressed the metagame by inventing their own style, not by copying another one.

They did not do it all on their own though. Pretty much eveyrone that knows how to shuttle loop cancel or does a lagless tornado had to learn it from either watching a video or watching someone in tournament. Most of the top level MK players got where they are by seeing what other MK players had done and building on it.

 

[B.A.M.]

I dont know why its hard for people to understand that the fact theyre far more competent MK players than any other character does play apart in his dominance. Yes he has more options than the rest of the casts as well and that too play a part. However, a ton of character boards suffer from the lack of having a top level player playing that said character. I mean you have players like Anti player Marth at a higher level that 80% of them. Or Tyrant, a top 5 Falco, who doesnt put nearly as much time into the character as the other top Falco's. A ton of times its simply the fact that the basic knowledge they have of the game is vastly superior to the rest of these non-MK players.

On the other side of the coin, a ton of techs other players have just havent been put into practice as well due to player skill limitations. Case in point, the Olimars. Nothing new had been figured out the Japanese Olis. They simply have the vision to utilize these tactics on a top level format. American Olis started to emulate and Olimar as a whole rose.

You have Sheik; who on paper should perform very well vs MK. Great Jumps to combat dair camping, a solid projectile, a ton of guaranteed damage options, and a pretty solid boxing game. While her recovery options are lacking, she does have a tether options and a fall speed that can help vs juggling. Most importantly however, she has a grab THAT KILLS. Not only that but can be used to do solid damage in conjunction with her damage racking. FH ff nairs arent bad at beating nado. tilts that can chain into fair, bair, nair or uair; tools that can be used to get your opponent nearer to the blast zone to help her kill. Im not going say its that simple but she has good tools, coupled with one of the fastest dashes in the game, giving her more range that is overtly shown. However, the player skill level of those who play sheik is lacking relative to other characters (especially MK). I mean for America, we have Judo and that it. We have some Japanese Sheiks who perform decently and even they mess up on the grab release quite a bit, something that can be done more consistently than it is. That MU is a different beast with that tech, even moreso than Falco's dthrow 50/50 vs MK. Sheik is nowhere close to being maximized comparatively to a good portion of the casts.

I mean look at Larry for example. Being the only top level Falco main in the U.S. he may get more "experience" vs MKs. However you also have to consider the fact that a multitude of ppl are trying to figure out his playstyle. You think in So Cal none of the MKs attempt to figure out how to beat Larry? Just as Larry learns to beat new options, ppl attempt to learn to beat his counter options. Its not just oh Larry gets more experience vs these MKs so thats why it seems even. Also as Gheb said if you really look beyond the joke buffs given to MK ( timeout % rule and ******** stagelist) Falco in top level play has beaten out MK.

 

[TeeVee]

Also as Gheb said if you really look beyond the joke buffs given to MK ( timeout % rule and ******** stagelist) Falco in top level play has beaten out MK.

100% agree with this.


mk winning EVERY single national for the past 2 years even with a lgl, anti scrooging rules, and a dramatically less diverse stage list really proves that falco has beaten out mk.

 

[BlueXenon]

I think the more youtube videos there are of top players using certain characters, the better these character will become. There are and always has been a lot of top level metaknight videos. The only reason why I decided to become a mk main is because I saw so many videos of m2k (and other mk mains) on youtube and I learned mk's moveset just by watching him play a lot. You can find a top level video for most of mk's match ups, I can't do the samething with a character like Lucario, who is my second main, because there aren't a lot of top level lucario videos even though there are some of Trela playing. If someone likes watching top level brawl videos, they are most likely to see a lot of mk's and that will make them more likely to pick up mk imo. If you use a character like Bowser, its going to be a lot harder to learn how to use him well with the lack of bowser mains to watch. I think this is the reason why metaknight is much better than all of the top tier. He is going to be used by a lot more players than other characters because of the reason I said above and those players will keep learning new things and learn how to play match ups better.

 

[Blue Dusk]

I'm ascertain that character may be Marth... or T.Link... or himself

 

[kismet2]

if mk has even to close to even matchups are you that bad of a player that you can't outplay said mk? like jebus and bam was saying, its a part of the metagame to use top level strategies and applying them. you find these strategies by watching videos and you can find ways to counter them. not everyone plays their character to the best of their ability or even in general. that's why it's good to pay attention to top level players because they're going to do what works but even then they don't always find a way around something or even play well. the ruleset wasn't necessarily made for nerfing mk lol it was made to change how the game was played. i'm pretty sure that no one wanted a metagame where ledge characters are more dominant. i personally don't really care since i love this game.

 

[fabulouspants]

japan still better than usa. frauds.

 

[[FBC] ESAM]

Pika/MK is +1 MK. He loses to the slow pokey style, but goes even with aggressive or extra campy. So much fun to play good MKs :3

 

[Judo777]

I dont know why its hard for people to understand that the fact theyre far more competent MK players than any other character does play apart in his dominance. Yes he has more options than the rest of the casts as well and that too play a part. However, a ton of character boards suffer from the lack of having a top level player playing that said character. I mean you have players like Anti player Marth at a higher level that 80% of them. Or Tyrant, a top 5 Falco, who doesnt put nearly as much time into the character as the other top Falco's. A ton of times its simply the fact that the basic knowledge they have of the game is vastly superior to the rest of these non-MK players.

On the other side of the coin, a ton of techs other players have just havent been put into practice as well due to player skill limitations. Case in point, the Olimars. Nothing new had been figured out the Japanese Olis. They simply have the vision to utilize these tactics on a top level format. American Olis started to emulate and Olimar as a whole rose.

You have Sheik; who on paper should perform very well vs MK. Great Jumps to combat dair camping, a solid projectile, a ton of guaranteed damage options, and a pretty solid boxing game. While her recovery options are lacking, she does have a tether options and a fall speed that can help vs juggling. Most importantly however, she has a grab THAT KILLS. Not only that but can be used to do solid damage in conjunction with her damage racking. FH ff nairs arent bad at beating nado. tilts that can chain into fair, bair, nair or uair; tools that can be used to get your opponent nearer to the blast zone to help her kill. Im not going say its that simple but she has good tools, coupled with one of the fastest dashes in the game, giving her more range that is overtly shown. However, the player skill level of those who play sheik is lacking relative to other characters (especially MK). I mean for America, we have Judo and that it. We have some Japanese Sheiks who perform decently and even they mess up on the grab release quite a bit, something that can be done more consistently than it is. That MU is a different beast with that tech, even moreso than Falco's dthrow 50/50 vs MK. Sheik is nowhere close to being maximized comparatively to a good portion of the casts.

I mean look at Larry for example. Being the only top level Falco main in the U.S. he may get more "experience" vs MKs. However you also have to consider the fact that a multitude of ppl are trying to figure out his playstyle. You think in So Cal none of the MKs attempt to figure out how to beat Larry? Just as Larry learns to beat new options, ppl attempt to learn to beat his counter options. Its not just oh Larry gets more experience vs these MKs so thats why it seems even. Also as Gheb said if you really look beyond the joke buffs given to MK ( timeout % rule and ******** stagelist) Falco in top level play has beaten out MK.

For the second and third years of the game i used to practice GR>DACUS for 2 hours a day at least 3 times a week. Even then I still drop it in tournament. It's just hard, its a 2 frame link that has a small window of when to begin. And unlike cgs and stuff like that it's NOT the same everytime, because they get to control when they break out (which is big because you have to react, then time the window of when to start, THEN execute it properly), you have to factor in things like possible moving platforms, if it will kill, if you should do an easier option, what to do if you miss, and several other things. Like it's just pretty hard to do when ur really nervous.

And yes on paper Sheik should do very well verse MK. Such is Sheik's curse. Sheik is a pretty good character on paper. But this game is not paper. Sheik can do well verse MK if the match goes perfectly in ur favor, they need to get hit by the right moves in the right order and you can kill MK at 90% everytime. But once anything goes wrong getting the game back to where you want it to be is SOOOOO much work for sheik. Sheik actually loses pretty solidly vs MK.

Also concerning Larry ofc Socal is trying to learn to counter his strategies, but he at the exact same rate gets to try to counter theirs, then he gets outside experience on top of that.

 

[-LzR-]

Shouldn't you just BDacus out of the GR to make it 5 times easier?

 

[#HBC | Joker]

I'm pretty sure that if you read what he posted, you'd see that buffering it doesn't work because it's a few frames off, and won't sweetspot properly.

That on top of the fact that in order to buffer it, you'd still have to predict their release.

 

[C.J.]

The first part is true, you don't have to predict it though. You have 29 frames of may when you release someone- no way that requires prediction.

 

[PMC66]

And yes on paper Sheik should do very well verse MK. Such is Sheik's curse. Sheik is a pretty good character on paper. But this game is not paper.

Thus why Wolf mains think their character looses when in actuality if they got off the platforms and didn't camp at the ledge they'd do vastly better.

 

[infiniteV115]

It's not hard to react to air releases with a BDACUS. I can do it, and I don't even play a character with a useful BDACUS XD

 

[Judo777]

In order to buffer a dash out of GR you have to double tap. So for a BDCAUS out of GR it would be double tap analog stick, double tap cstick, which is not super easy.

I actually have 3 different methods for GR DACUS depending on if I'm messing up or not, you can do it the old fasion way and time the DACUS, you can buffer it (i do this) although BDACUS (the double cstick animation) is hard I just buffer the dash and input the DACUS manually, or i use the single directional input method (if you tap either 7 or 9 and then change up the timing for the DA and US input you can avoid having to hit 2 directions on the analog). For the most part tho i strayed away from those methods because i want one timing to learn for everything. That's why i never used BDACUS because if you learn that you won't have a good feel for the other GR options like regrab, fair, RAR bair, DA. I just have the most success just timing it.

 

[[FBC] ESAM]

You don't have to double tap, you just have to flick the control stick.

 

[infiniteV115]

You don't have to double tap, you just have to flick the control stick.

This.
Where on earth did you hear that you have to double tap O.o
It's just flat out wrong. And it doesn't make any sense.

 

[fox67890]

Double tapping (and holding it the second time) buffers a dash and keeps you in the dash animation. If you're buffering the actual DACUS though, I don't think you need to do that.

 

[infiniteV115]

You definitely don't.

 

[Judo777]

Double tapping (and holding it the second time) buffers a dash and keeps you in the dash animation. If you're buffering the actual DACUS though, I don't think you need to do that.

^^^ this. And in order to do ANY of the other follow up options, you have to maintain the dash not just begin one.

So yea you DO need to double tap to get the consistency that I was pointing out. You don't want to be changing inputs and timing for different followups more than you have to.

Btw GR DACUS IMO is only worth doing if it will kill, otherwise use a better option.

 

[-LzR-]

Well BDacus is still much easier than Sheiks normal Dacus. It's still useful for most character with Dacuses as they come out faster and it's not really that hard. Where do you get this double tap stuff?

 

[#HBC | Joker]

He literally just explained it in the post above you....

 

[infiniteV115]

But he's wrong.
You DON'T need to double tap to buffer a dash that gets maintained.
Just tap once during the buffer window and don't let go....I've done it hundreds of times. I'm used to taking advantage of ZSS' air release followups and all of them required buffered dashes, all I do is tap and hold and it works.

 

[[FBC] ESAM]

If you tap and hold it before the buffer window closes you will just end up walking.

 

[infiniteV115]

o.o
You sure?

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

I was actually working specifically with this mechanic today and yesterday, and here's how it works:

The buffer window is 10 frames. If you buffer the dash during frames 1-5, you'll do a walk. If you buffer it between frames 6-10, you'll dash.

The reason people think you have to hit dash twice is because hitting dash twice probably means you're tapping it once again during the second window.

If you want to test this yourself, you can use Dolphin's TAS controls to recreate this exact scenario.

If you're getting a walk you're buffering really early. If you're getting a dash you're waiting a bit longer or mashing the control stick.

Here's some actual data using ZSS' grab release animation.

ZSS can shield on frame 30, so 29 frames where she can't move. On frame 19-23, mashing the control stick means I buffer a walk. From frame 24-29, mashing the control stick buffers a dash.

 

[tekkie]

Thus why Wolf mains think their character looses when in actuality if they got off the platforms and didn't camp at the ledge they'd do vastly better.

what on earth are you talking about

 

[fox67890]

But he's wrong.
You DON'T need to double tap to buffer a dash that gets maintained.
Just tap once during the buffer window and don't let go....I've done it hundreds of times. I'm used to taking advantage of ZSS' air release followups and all of them required buffered dashes, all I do is tap and hold and it works.

I'm 95% certain that if you just tap once and hold it, you'll buffer a walk, like Esam said.

If you, however, tap it once and release it before the buffer window closes, you'll buffer a dash, but only the beginning dash, and not the running part afterwards. In other words, you'll only buffer the fox trot.

I think the reason you need to tap it twice and hold the second time, is because the first time buffers the foxtrot and the second time buffers the input to continue it into a run.

Buffering dashes backwards works a bit differently I believe.

I never heard of what Supermodel From Paris has said before. Idk if it's true and can't test it.
_~_~_~_
But, for buffering the actual Dacus, I don't think it's necessary to double tap the control stick. I don't know for sure, but I'm pretty sure Falco doesn't have to. I'd imagine it's the same for Sheik.

 

[infiniteV115]

I'm 100% positive that you don't need to double tap the analog stick to BDACUS.

Or you do, but when I singled tapped the control stick it resulted in sliding usmashes that just happen to be completely identical to BDACUSes but aren't BDACUSes. (Yes, this is sarcasm. They're BDACUSes, lol)

I'm gonna go ahead and believe what SFP says because
-Again, I've been taking advantage of air release followups with ZSS that all start with buffered dashes since I joined the scene competitively...which was over a year ago.
-He was just given frame advance and was testing out tons of **** recently, and given his ability to provide the frame data for buffering dashes out of ZSS' air release on other characters, it seems like he probably tested it
-His explanation for why people thought it was necessary to double tap makes perfect sense

Edit: FTR, I've BDACUSed with Sheik, Falco and Diddy before. I can't get the full length out of regular DACUSes for any of them, so if I'm ever playing them for fun I BDACUS rather than trying to do a normal DACUS. You only need to tap the analog once.

Buffering dashes backwards is probably the same, but the difference with that is if you try to buffer a backwards dash + something else, you'll turn around instead.

eg by tapping forward on analog --> pressing down on C-stick in the buffer window, you'll buffer a dash attack forward
However, if you try to do that backwards, you'll buffer a turnaround dsmash.

So to buffer a backwards dash + something else, instead of pressing forward --> w/e, you have to press back --> down --> back --> w/e. Like in this video.

eg in the buffered standing pivot grab infinite DDD has on Yoshi, if you're facing right, you'd have to buffer
Left --> down --> left (all on analog) --> right on C-stick --> grab.

And I'm sure you can see why this infinite barely affects the MU. It's unrealistic to expect someone to do this consistently.

 

[fox67890]

I was always a bit confused about buffering dashes backwards.
Arigatou for that information.

 

[Judo777]

I was actually working specifically with this mechanic today and yesterday, and here's how it works:

The buffer window is 10 frames. If you buffer the dash during frames 1-5, you'll do a walk. If you buffer it between frames 6-10, you'll dash.

The reason people think you have to hit dash twice is because hitting dash twice probably means you're tapping it once again during the second window.

If you want to test this yourself, you can use Dolphin's TAS controls to recreate this exact scenario.

If you're getting a walk you're buffering really early. If you're getting a dash you're waiting a bit longer or mashing the control stick.

Here's some actual data using ZSS' grab release animation.

ZSS can shield on frame 30, so 29 frames where she can't move. On frame 19-23, mashing the control stick means I buffer a walk. From frame 24-29, mashing the control stick buffers a dash.

Infinite is just buffering the DA later than the first 5 frames. And timing for the second 5 frames of the buffer window is not much different than just timing the DACUS in the first place. Btw in order to hit some of the other characters you need to hold the DACUS for a little bit longer than just instantly doing the usmash animation to get the best hit. So you need to begin the DACUS with basically buffered timing, but then hold the DACUS for a few frames before releasing to get hitbox you want to connect. So just BDACUSing (the dash > double tap ctick method) won't work for all characters ideally unless i want to then hold the A button after double tapping the cstick which just seems silly.

 

[infiniteV115]

You can use the Z-button to charge...why the hell would you use the A button lol

And I thought people who mained characters such as Sheik and Falco usually set the R button to attack anyway cause it made regular DACUS timing easier...

 

[Shiny Mewtwo aka Jigglysir]

And I thought people who mained characters such as Sheik and Falco usually set the R button to attack anyway cause it made regular DACUS timing easier...

That's what I do

 

[infiniteV115]

On top of that, using the A button to charge the DACUS/BDACUS isn't even hard, lol.

 

[Shinde425]

MK does do the best against MK. MK beats MK 100 percent of the time in the mirror. No other character can match those numbers.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

He also loses 100% of the time in the mirror.

 

[Napos]

who gives a flying hoot. Main Luigi. :333333333333

 

[Judo777]

On top of that, using the A button to charge the DACUS/BDACUS isn't even hard, lol.

You ordinarily don't use the R button (which is switched to attack for me) for BDACUS, I don't want to learn additional inputs if i want to charge it.

Like you are missing the point, I want to learn 1 input method for any and all forms. It's the most consistent method.