What characters are actually good against META KNIGHT

[kismet2]

it wouldn't really matter if no one agrees with me lol this is just how i see it, it is my opinion. but i was referring to options and how falco and diddy wouldn't really have to commit to anything. it's much easier to turtle/zone with a projectile against a character that doesn't have one themselves and forced to approach. mk ditto is constant close quarters and rock paper scissors. if you're a good mk then you may as well play out the ditto but i just pretty much meant if you use falco/diddy/etc really any character with a decent projectile that can zone pretty well then you don't need to pick up mk for the ditto. chances are if you're doing it for that one matchup you'd lose to good mks anyway =/

EDIT: lol just saw that you said sheik has to think about her kills that's for any character at high levels of play. It's all about putting your opponent in a 50/50 and punishing them if they guess wrong

 

[infiniteV115]

MK still does the best against MK

If you disagree then that means you're claiming some character beats MK.
Or you'd be claiming that another character goes even with MK and that MU is less..uh..of a mental burden than the MK ditto (I could see this being the case for Falco)

 

[~ Gheb ~]

MK still does the best against MK

If you disagree then that means you're claiming some character beats MK.

Depending on the stage

• , that could be argued - top level tournament results from 2012 suggest that Falco might have an edge, for example.
  
  

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

remove lgl and say that >_>

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Why remove a rule that keeps an artificial, unfair buff in MK's favor in check?

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Ummm I didn't say I'd want to remove it.

Also, the word "artificial..." I don't think you're using it right. There's no way to restrict ledge grabs within the brawl software. I would argue that our regulation of a core game mechanic with no in-game knobs is pretty "artificial."

Anyway, your MK nerf is also a Falco buff, a Pit nerf, a ROB nerf, etc.

 

[C.J.]

His "buff" is the % rule in the case of timeouts on same stock.

 

[Blistering Speed]

remove lgl and say that >_>

Totally irrelevant.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Totally irrelevant.

I guess. But yeah if MK is allowed to use the ledge Falco absolutely can't win. Actually that kinda goes for most characters with good ledge games, LGL buffs Falco pretty hard. >_>

 

[kismet2]

if you take away lgl mk isn't the only character that gets buffed lol g&w, pit, dk, etc will have an easier time as well because they don't have to get off the ledge and stall as long as they want.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

And suddenly Ice Climbers, Falco, Snake, Diddy, Dedede, and Olimar don't seem nearly as powerful, for better or worse.

...Oh, wait, did I just name all of the most polarizing characters? Balance is funny sometimes.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Well, it's only worse if you think hugging the ledge is somehow unfair.

 

[-LzR-]

Because grounded control is awesome, but ledge control is gay.

 

[Deleted member 189823]

I think the characters that can go even against MK are Falco, ICs, SNAKE, Diddy Kong and Olimar.

Why aren't Diddy and Falco even with MK in the MU chart anymore, though?

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Because they don't actually go even with him, they lose slightly

 

[Blistering Speed]

Because they don't actually go even with him, they lose slightly

Everywhere I turn on this forum, there are literally thousands of these posts. Assert opinion, done. It accomplishes nothing whatsoever. Nobody will take a nobody on their word. Provide rationale and construct an argument, or what's the point?

 

[C.J.]

I think the characters that can go even against MK are Falco, ICs, SNAKE, Diddy Kong and Olimar.

Why aren't Diddy and Falco even with MK in the MU chart anymore, though?

There is absolutely no way that Snake and Diddy could even be ARGUED to be even. Theory doesn't support it, results don't support it.

Falco is dependent on stage list/LGL/how much you weigh results.

Olimar, I am not sure what the most recent results are about it, but theory seems to push it slightly in MK's favor.

IC you can make a case for.

Everywhere I turn on this forum, there are literally thousands of these posts. Assert opinion, done. It accomplishes nothing whatsoever. Nobody will take a nobody on their word. Provide rationale and construct an argument, or what's the point?

Nobody will take anybody else* Sorry, that just hurt to read lol.

Anyway, the common consensus is that MK doesn't lose to anyone/only even MU is MK, maybe IC, and a FEW people argue Falco. Burden of proof is definitely on the side that wants to argue the even MUs as the norm is on the side of those characters losing. As such, Grim is under no obligation to give evidence for his claim until the opposing viewpoint has given sufficient evidence to back up their claim.

 

[Flayl]

I think the characters that can go even against MK are Falco, ICs, SNAKE, Diddy Kong and Olimar.

Why aren't Diddy and Falco even with MK in the MU chart anymore, though?

Because the results from tournaments have a stronger inclination towards slight disadvantage than even, and if one of those characters had a truly even matchup with Meta Knight it would have had a huge boost in popularity for MK legal tournaments over the past 3 years.

That good enough for you Blistering Speed?

 

[SaveMeJebus]

The MK match up is even for Diddy. Diddy has everything he needs to fight MK both on land and in the air. Diddy does better on the ground, but MK does better offstage. I also feel that fox still goes even with MK

 

[Nintendo 64]

Well, Sheik have good weapons against mk, needles and f-tilt lock for racking damage, great mix ups, and the most important, the grab realease to dacus. Yes, it´s difficult to perform, but extreme mortal.

 

[Blistering Speed]

Nobody will take anybody else* Sorry, that just hurt to read lol.

It wasn't a double negative. Reading comprehension, please.

Because the results from tournaments have a stronger inclination towards slight disadvantage than even.

Empirically, Falco's results have no such inclination. Not that results are a precisely reliable indicator in as isolated and insular a metagame as Brawl.

and if one of those characters had a truly even matchup with Meta Knight it would have had a huge boost in popularity for MK legal tournaments over the past 3 years.

That is an enormously oversimplified assumption.

 

[Flayl]

I can make stuff up too. But I don't.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Fact of the matter is, when you have a character who is as hugely dominant as MK (in terms of numbers and placings), if there was a character that truly went even with him, that character would easily see way more use than every other char (bar MK).

Secondly, the non-MK player will almost always know the match-up better than the MK player. So while it might seem even in practice, it really isn't.

 

[SaveMeJebus]

MK players have pushed their character further than any other character and there are more top level MK players than there are top level players for any other character.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

MK players have pushed their character further than any other character

What does that even mean? How do you judge something like that? Wouldn't it be just as easy to say that since MK has so many more options that the rest of the cast, more useful stuff ended up being discovered?

Pretty much every character has been squeezed really hard for new tactics.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

What does that even mean? How do you judge something like that? Wouldn't it be just as easy to say that since MK has so many more options that the rest of the cast, more useful stuff ended up being discovered?

Pretty much every character has been squeezed really hard for new tactics.

MK is only good because good players use him, didn't you know?

 

[SFA Smiley]

People forgetting about this borderline's decent MK matchup.

I feel there's a few characters with close MK matchups. To me having a -1 against MK isn't really that big a deal. Matchups exist, you're just gonna have to play it harder. Especially in -1 matchups where it's close enough that you really don't need to change your character you just need to play better because it's totally winnable, it's why i'm so anti-ban. MK has a few +1s so as an opposing player you have multiple options for taking on MKs I don't really see why he HAS to have bad matchups, he just needs lose-able ones. But anyway not to open that whole can of worms Gdubs does pretty well against MK, it's just the other top tier characters he gets ***** by funnily enough. MK is actually my favorite matchup, he dies at like 60% to the dumbest **** =)

I also still think Fox does close against him, I dunno how the wolf/mk matchup is looking these days but I remember him doing pretty decently.

And then as far as you top tiers you've got Falco, ICs, Olimar, Diddy, and Snake off the top of my head.

Oh yeah and Pika.

And I dunno about Wario, but maybe him. And i'm one of the few people that still think Marth almost goes even with MK.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

MK's +1s are still a stretch from "almost even".

I don't think anyone is pro-ban because they think he is too strong to beat; the reasons have more to do with his tournament presence and affect on the ruleset.

 

[#HBC | Joker]

People who think MK should be banned because we have to add rules specifically for him should think twice before adding a rule to ban him, which is also a rule specifically for him.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Better one that works than a bunch that people still manage to get away with bending.

 

[Vkrm]

Are MK's worst MU 5-5's? Melee player here so that's why I don't already know.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Are MK's worst MU 5-5's? Melee player here so that's why I don't already know.

Arguably so. Some would say 55-45 outside of the ditto.

 

[Claire Diviner]

What about Pikachu? I don't know much about the MU, but I hear he goes pretty even, or close to it vs. MK.

Personally, my most hated MU as an MK player is probably Olimar. Pikmin spam, long grabs, and punishing nado with grabs and Usmashes makes the MU more of a headache than anything else. Good thing he's very gimpable, provided you read his Pikmin Order well enough.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

ESAM doesn't think Pika is even anymore, from what I heard.

 

[SFA Smiley]

^Yeah he changed his mind after playing anti but he still thinks it's a -1

 

[Grim Tuesday]

IMO

+1 -

EDIT: Dunno about Wolf, actually, I think MKs might just suck at that MU (like vs. Wario and ZSS)

 

[Grimmz]

Pikachu does fairly even against MK. The MU is 0 so i would say he does better against him than any other character.

 

[fox67890]

I personally feel Fox goes even, but I don't attend offline tournies, so my opinion doesn't really matter :x

 

[Luigi player]

MK has so many nearly even MUs!

...what a balanced character!

 

[SaveMeJebus]

http://i.imgur.com/E7Q2h.png

No bad or even match ups. Pikachu is such a balanced character

What does that even mean? How do you judge something like that? Wouldn't it be just as easy to say that since MK has so many more options that the rest of the cast, more useful stuff ended up being discovered?

Pretty much every character has been squeezed really hard for new tactics.

You learn a lot by watching top level players and top level player videos and there are obviously more top level MKs and MK videos than there are for any other character. This makes it easier for players to get better and pushes MK's metagame further