We've got to talk about some stuff and figure stuff out

[MisterCTM]

Armada has said there are 3 main problems with Peach that prevent her from being able to be used at the highest level of play:

1) Your opponent camps the platforms when they have a lead

2) Puff

3) Can't touch Fox's shield

Well I think we all know about #2, but what can we do about 1 and 3?

 

[MTL Kyle]

1 - You can't do **** because you can't make Peach fall faster or have better mobility. She is not viable in the highest of the levels because she is impaired by her own design.

2 - Puff is ****ing hard. I think there are certain specific things that were not discussed in the matchup, since it's not a matchup that people play that often (too obnoxious), but nothing that would make a big revolution in it.

3 - Peaches could probably explore cross up more and try to poke that delicious tail hitbox that he has (which is pokable with full shield apparently), but I think at the highest of the levels, that puts you in position to get shone out of shield and cross ups are not that great in Smash, because they usually put you closer to the ledge. In a situation where you get punished for trying it out, it doesn't seem very worth it.

 

[Vestboy_Myst]

one answer to #3 is fc fair on shield to immediate grab. if timed perfectly and spaced on the correct area of the opponent's shield, they will not have time to do any oos options before the grab connects.

 

[MisterCTM]

one answer to #3 is fc fair on shield to immediate grab. if timed perfectly and spaced on the correct area of the opponent's shield, they will not have time to do any oos options before the grab connects.

Watch MacD's Apex vlog, Day 0 I believe. Armada tells MacDnthat he was playing Has in friendlies and that every time Armada would do a perfect FC fair on his shield, Has would waveshine OOS and waveshine him across the stage.

So yeah, fak

 

[Vestboy_Myst]

i'm pretty sure shine oos is not a threat if you perform the fcfair>grab perfectly

despite what you say i think we still need somebody to test it out and see if its unsafe or just very hard on spacies (not that armada's word is worthless, just want to make sure). i know the timing/spacing is minutely different than if you did it on sheik for example.

 

[CAUP]

Armada said that Peach's main problem was her speed actually.

Peach... She really needs some help. :/ Jump instant turnip drop might be Peach's only hope : (

 

[MisterCTM]

Armada said that Peach's main problem was her speed actually.

Peach... She really needs some help. :/ Jump instant turnip drop might be Peach's only hope : (

Ya her speed directly corelates to #1. The speed itself isn't the problem it's the problems that result because of her speed, if that makes sense. And these points are taken from Armada's twitter where he replys to someone about Peach's problems keeping her from being able to compete on the new meta.

 

[1MachGO]

Peach not being able to touch Fox's shield is so not true lol. FC'd fair, nair, and bair are all +4 on block and Fox's OoS shine takes 4 frames to come out. This means that Peach has 7 frames of leniency. She could grab, dsmash, or jab Fox before he could punish her.

L-Cancelled bair isn't shabby either and is +1 on block. This means Peach has 4 frames of leniency to do something. Fox would have to be frame perfect to punish your dsmash and jab/roll would be guaranteed.

And if you don't feel like committing to anything, there is certainly enough frames of leniency to just dash away. If Fox is trigger happy about shine OoS, you could probably just punish him with dash attack/pivot dsmash.

 

[MisterCTM]

Peach not being able to touch Fox's shield is so not true lol. FC'd fair, nair, and bair are all +4 on block and Fox's OoS shine takes 4 frames to come out. This means that Peach has 7 frames of leniency. She could grab, dsmash, or jab Fox before he could punish her.

L-Cancelled bair isn't shabby either and is +1 on block. This means Peach has 4 frames of leniency to do something. Fox would have to be frame perfect to punish your dsmash and jab/roll would be guaranteed.

And if you don't feel like committing to anything, there is certainly enough frames of leniency to just dash away. If Fox is trigger happy about shine OoS, you could probably just punish him with dash attack/pivot dsmash.

Where are you getting this data from?

 

[1MachGO]

Where are you getting this data from?

Well the frame data for shield advantage and what-not can be found in Peach's hitboxes frame data thread.

OoS options are here: http://smashboards.com/threads/out-of-shield-options-frame-data.294336/

 

[TL_MissingNo]

I think that Peach's shield pressure game is heavily unexplored, as well as her platform game. Obviously as far as people camping the top platform there's not much she can do, but honestly I think that patience is the most important thing when put in that position. Even though Armada has done so much for Peach and pushed her to a level no other Peach player has I don't think she should just be given up on just like that. Her punish game is still impeccable and her mobility with float cancelling is still in it's infancy in my opinion. I can't say right now that I'm in any position to be telling Armada that he's wrong, but I respect him as a competitor, so if he wants to put Peach aside to pursue victory over even MORE character development, then I can't object.

 

[Vestboy_Myst]

I think that Peach's shield pressure game is heavily unexplored, as well as her platform game....Her punish game is still impeccable and her mobility with float cancelling is still in it's infancy in my opinion. I can't say right now that I'm in any position to be telling Armada that he's wrong...

i don't even know what to say to this
EDIT: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning–Kruger_effect

 

[MisterCTM]

i don't even know what to say to this
EDIT: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning–Kruger_effect

Are you saying TL_MissingNo believes he is better than he actually is? Or are you saying that he thinks Armada is better than Armada truly is? Forgive me, I'm unfamiliar with the Dunning-Kruger effect, and the only information I know about it is contained within that wikipedia article.

 

[MTL Kyle]

i don't even know what to say to this
EDIT: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning–Kruger_effect

He is the next supreme.

 

[Electro Swoosh]

I totally agree with MissingNo, and I don't think he's putting himself above Armada at all. While Armada is by far the best Peach the world has ever seen, she can still be taken further, just like every other character in Melee. Since Armada has been gaining more confidence in his Fox and less in his Peach, one can see how his play with the latter is slowly starting to suffer because of it, which makes sense. I totally understand motivation for training up his Fox, but I think that theoretically, if he were to keep training his Peach, he might be able to push her to the new heights that she capable of.

 

[MTL Kyle]

if he were to keep training his Peach, he might be able to push her to the new heights that she capable of.

By doing what ?

If you guys are seeing more potential in the character, go explore it, get good and be the next best Peach in the world.
Saying the character "still has potential" and not list what is good and still unexplored is just being dumb.

 

[MisterCTM]

I totally agree with MissingNo, and I don't think he's putting himself above Armada at all. While Armada is by far the best Peach the world has ever seen, she can still be taken further, just like every other character in Melee. Since Armada has been gaining more confidence in his Fox and less in his Peach, one can see how his play with the latter is slowly starting to suffer because of it, which makes sense. I totally understand motivation for training up his Fox, but I think that theoretically, if he were to keep training his Peach, he might be able to push her to the new heights that she capable of.

The problem is that no matter what you can't change the fact that she is slower than Fox, Falco, Sheik, and Marth. Straight up they are faster. I agree with you that Peach is underdeveloped and can still be used at the highest level of play (at least for right now), I don't think in, say, 3 or 4 years she will be viable at even Shroomed/KK/S2J level of play. She is just too slow, and we can't change that.